[neonixie-l] Re: IN-14 and Mystery Tube?

[Paul Andrews]

Tell me about it :-/ I had smoke coming out of something the other day. 
Amazingly nothing was damaged. Live and learn!

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 10:17:17 PM UTC-4, gregebert wrote:
>
> *If everything is properly connected*, even an internal short in the 
> 74141 that leaked high-voltage back to the Arduino, which seems unlikely, 
> would be limited to a few mA so it's unlikely to cause damage.
>
> Your biggest risk is a hookup error, or possibly ESD damage to the Arduino 
> from mishandling.
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Radioactive Nixies - Study

[Paul Andrews]

I have often wondered about taking a geiger counter to my tubes. Call me 
paranoid, but I wonder where some of the NOS tubes come from precisely.

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 3:41:11 PM UTC-4, SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F. 
wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> This might be a little off topic or irrelevant, but maybe someone is 
> interested in it too. 
>
> One of my hobbies aside nixies is technology related with radiation and 
> nuclear (geiger counters, etc). 
> Today i was sorting my nixies into boxes and held a B-5092-A from 
> Burroughs, as i spotted a print that looked like a part of a radiation 
> warning sign, i inspected all of my B-5092-A - and bingo, one had the 
> complete sing. So this tubes are or have been radioactive. 
>
> Before anyone gets nervous about having possible radioactive nixies i will 
> write a detailed report about this. 
>
>
> For these who not know, everything is radioactive, even the air we breathe 
> all day - this is because of the naturally occuring radiation comming from 
> minerals and of cosmic rays entering or earth. A Geiger Counter measures 
> radiation events in time, usually "counts per minute" or "counts per 
> second". The background-rate depends on your location (e.g. in the montains 
> you have a higher rate than in cities). The CPM (counts perminute) depend 
> on the type of detector - but the calculated dose should always be the same 
> (some detecors for example give you 100cpm others only 1cpm but with their 
> conversion factors both end up giving the same dose).
>
> The normal background dose on earth is usually *0.1* to* 0.5* 
> microSievert/hour (uS/h)
>
> My background at home is *0.15 uS/h  *which is* 40 CPM* with my type of 
> detector. 
>
> The B-5092-A reads only about 
>
> *100 CPM (0.4 uS/h)*Is it dangerous for your health? - Far from it! You 
> could carry this tube your whole life around your neck and it would not 
> endanger your health. 
>
> For example, an intercontinental airline flight will give your up to *3.00 
> uS/h* and not even this is dangerous - it only would affect you if you 
> would fly constantely for years.
>
> So this tubes are perfectly save to carry and handle! There maybe 
> potential way more dangerous items in your house - like watches with 
> glowing digits. 
>
>
> *** OFF TOPIC ***
>
> But why is the tube radioactive, and whats in it?
>
> To answer this you need to look in deeper in radiation.
> There are 5 types of radioactive "rays"
>
> Alpha :Can only travel a few centimeter, and are not 
> possible to penetrate paper. So if you put a paper over a alpha source, you 
> will not - or very low - notice it
> Beta  : Can penetrate thin objects, can not penetrate 
> metals like aluminium
> Gamma:  Can penetrate solid objects, penetrate medium thick 
> metals. Usually stopped by lead shielding
> Neutron:  Very high energy radiation, can nearly penetrate 
> everything, concrete, lead etc
> X-Rays:   Special form of radiation, tend to "bounce off" 
> shields instead of getting in ther. 
>
>
> I tested the tube with different Geiger-Tubes. The tube does not contain a 
> isotope (radioactive element) that is 100% alpha radiation, since alpha can 
> not penetrate the glass.
> Also, the isotope cant be 100% gamma, since a gamma geiger tube does not 
> pick up a significant change. 
> So the isotope we are looking for is potentialli a beta-isotope and is a 
> gas. The isotpe must have a relative long half-life too.
>
> Whats half-life?
> An unit to measure how long it takes for a radioactive element to be just 
> half of its activity. Eg. if your have 100 today, and the half-live is 10 
> years, there will be only 50 left in 10 years!
>
> I did a little reseach and the gas we are looking for is Krypton Kr-85
> It was used in different types of tubes, usually to help ignite something 
> (like a nixie digit). 
>
> Facts on Kr-85:
>
> It has a half life of nearly 11 Years, this means if the tube is 30 years 
> old, today only 12.5% of its radioactive gas is still active. 
> The only way Kr-85 *could* affect your health is when you drop the tube 
> and inhale the gas. 
>
> But by the fact, that there is such a small amount and only a few activity 
> of it left, the gas would merge directly with the room air and would not be 
> dangerous. 
>
> Last but not least ;) - the tube is NOT SAVE FOR EATING :-) for various 
> other reasons!
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-14 and Mystery Tube?

[gregebert]

*If everything is properly connected*, even an internal short in the 74141 
that leaked high-voltage back to the Arduino, which seems unlikely, would 
be limited to a few mA so it's unlikely to cause damage.

Your biggest risk is a hookup error, or possibly ESD damage to the Arduino 
from mishandling.

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[neonixie-l] Re: IN-14 and Mystery Tube?

[Derek]

Thanks! It looks like the leads were clipped, so I believe no desoldering 
was done. The cathodes look extremely shiny/polished, so my hunch is that 
this calculator just sat in some Ukrainian basement collecting dust, maybe 
used every once in a while. 

Another question, I bought a six pack of russian 74141s, but haven't had a 
chance to test them out. Is it safe to drive these chip inputs directly 
from an Arduino pin, or through 74HC595s? I understand that these chips 
have zener diodes built in, among other things, but could a faulty chip 
totally destroy my arduino? I'd rather prevent magic smoke.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Radioactive Nixies - Study

[NeonJohn]

On 03/12/2017 06:16 PM, Charles MacDonald wrote:

> But how many Bananas and Brazil nuts do you keep around.  those are the
> real home based radiation sources...
> 
> 
http://www.neon-john.com/Nuke/Salt_substitute.jpg
http://www.neon-john.com/Nuke/K40_on_geiger_counter.jpg
http://www.neon-john.com/Nuke/Nuke_Index.htm

The K-40 in salt substitute is by far the hottest thing in an ordinary
house.

John

-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Radioactive Nixies - Study

[Charles MacDonald]

On 17-03-12 04:56 PM, gregebert wrote:

1 tube may produce 0.4uSv/Hr, but a clock with many more tubes will
produce more radiation. I have a total of 47 nixie tubes operating in my
home, plus another 6 at work. However, most of my tubes are at least 50
years old, so I'm not too concerned.



But how many Bananas and Brazil nuts do you keep around.  those are the 
real home based radiation sources...



--
Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario
cm...@zeusprune.ca  Just Beyond the Fringe
No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail.

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RE: [neonixie-l] Radioactive Nixies - Study

[Tidak Ada]

Also 42-Ar is a source of ß-radiaiton, that is used in tubes, even starters for 
fluorescent lamps!

 

Anyhow, radioactive isotopes are more frequently used in electron tubes. 
Particular tubes for transmitting and radar purpose. Thorium is allied to 
Tungsten in filaments for HF power tubes to enhance emission and CO-60 is used 
to enhance ignition of TR-cells (Transmit-receive cells), who are used to 
short-circuit the receiving part of an radar system during a transmitting a 
pulse. Thus to protect the delicate electronics in the receiver front-end.

 

eric

 

Van: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] Namens 
Paolo Cravero
Verzonden: zondag 12 maart 2017 21:44
Aan: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [neonixie-l] Radioactive Nixies - Study

 

Very interesting Jonathan.

 Any chance you could share a picture of the little warning sign and its 
position? 

 

I have very few of those Nixies and all tested negative, but my counter is 
quite insensitive. 

 

Thank you!

Paolo

 

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[neonixie-l] Re: Radioactive Nixies - Study

[gregebert]

1 tube may produce 0.4uSv/Hr, but a clock with many more tubes will produce 
more radiation. I have a total of 47 nixie tubes operating in my home, plus 
another 6 at work. However, most of my tubes are at least 50 years old, so 
I'm not too concerned. 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Radioactive Nixies - Study

[Paolo Cravero]

Very interesting Jonathan.
 Any chance you could share a picture of the little warning sign and its
position?

I have very few of those Nixies and all tested negative, but my counter is
quite insensitive.

Thank you!
Paolo

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Manuel Azevedo]

Thank you!

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[neonixie-l] Radioactive Nixies - Study

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

Hi

This might be a little off topic or irrelevant, but maybe someone is 
interested in it too. 

One of my hobbies aside nixies is technology related with radiation and 
nuclear (geiger counters, etc). 
Today i was sorting my nixies into boxes and held a B-5092-A from 
Burroughs, as i spotted a print that looked like a part of a radiation 
warning sign, i inspected all of my B-5092-A - and bingo, one had the 
complete sing. So this tubes are or have been radioactive. 

Before anyone gets nervous about having possible radioactive nixies i will 
write a detailed report about this. 


For these who not know, everything is radioactive, even the air we breathe 
all day - this is because of the naturally occuring radiation comming from 
minerals and of cosmic rays entering or earth. A Geiger Counter measures 
radiation events in time, usually "counts per minute" or "counts per 
second". The background-rate depends on your location (e.g. in the montains 
you have a higher rate than in cities). The CPM (counts perminute) depend 
on the type of detector - but the calculated dose should always be the same 
(some detecors for example give you 100cpm others only 1cpm but with their 
conversion factors both end up giving the same dose).

The normal background dose on earth is usually *0.1* to* 0.5* 
microSievert/hour (uS/h)

My background at home is *0.15 uS/h  *which is* 40 CPM* with my type of 
detector. 

The B-5092-A reads only about 

*100 CPM (0.4 uS/h)*Is it dangerous for your health? - Far from it! You 
could carry this tube your whole life around your neck and it would not 
endanger your health. 

For example, an intercontinental airline flight will give your up to *3.00 
uS/h* and not even this is dangerous - it only would affect you if you 
would fly constantely for years.

So this tubes are perfectly save to carry and handle! There maybe potential 
way more dangerous items in your house - like watches with glowing digits. 


*** OFF TOPIC ***

But why is the tube radioactive, and whats in it?

To answer this you need to look in deeper in radiation.
There are 5 types of radioactive "rays"

Alpha :Can only travel a few centimeter, and are not 
possible to penetrate paper. So if you put a paper over a alpha source, you 
will not - or very low - notice it
Beta  : Can penetrate thin objects, can not penetrate 
metals like aluminium
Gamma:  Can penetrate solid objects, penetrate medium thick 
metals. Usually stopped by lead shielding
Neutron:  Very high energy radiation, can nearly penetrate 
everything, concrete, lead etc
X-Rays:   Special form of radiation, tend to "bounce off" 
shields instead of getting in ther. 


I tested the tube with different Geiger-Tubes. The tube does not contain a 
isotope (radioactive element) that is 100% alpha radiation, since alpha can 
not penetrate the glass.
Also, the isotope cant be 100% gamma, since a gamma geiger tube does not 
pick up a significant change. 
So the isotope we are looking for is potentialli a beta-isotope and is a 
gas. The isotpe must have a relative long half-life too.

Whats half-life?
An unit to measure how long it takes for a radioactive element to be just 
half of its activity. Eg. if your have 100 today, and the half-live is 10 
years, there will be only 50 left in 10 years!

I did a little reseach and the gas we are looking for is Krypton Kr-85
It was used in different types of tubes, usually to help ignite something 
(like a nixie digit). 

Facts on Kr-85:

It has a half life of nearly 11 Years, this means if the tube is 30 years 
old, today only 12.5% of its radioactive gas is still active. 
The only way Kr-85 *could* affect your health is when you drop the tube and 
inhale the gas. 

But by the fact, that there is such a small amount and only a few activity 
of it left, the gas would merge directly with the room air and would not be 
dangerous. 

Last but not least ;) - the tube is NOT SAVE FOR EATING :-) for various 
other reasons!





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[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Paul Andrews]

Here is a schematic. Some notes about it: The filament (aka the cathode) 
should always have 1V across it. It has to be warm. When it is warm it has 
a resistance of about 30R. So the purpose of the resistor network there is 
that it cuts the 12V up into 3V, 1V and 8V (approximately). The filament is 
raised to 3V above 0 because we need to be able to vary the grid voltage 
from -3V to 0V with respect to the filament. So in this case, with the 
filament held at +3V, we can vary the grid voltage from 0V to +3V. When the 
grid is at 0V (-3V wrt to the filament), the lamp is fully off. When the 
grid is at +3V (0V wrt the filament), the lamp is fully on.

I made the grid voltage variable with the little resistor network off to 
the left, just to demonstrate this.

I created the 50V anode potential with a 200K/100K resistor network across 
a 150V nixie power supply I happened to have. BTW, the tube will glow with 
an anode voltage all the way down to about 23V, so 3x9V batteries in series 
would be enough to get a glow out of it.

In reality my 12V power supply was more like 10.5V so the resistor values I 
used were a little different. Also, the resistance from the anode to ground 
is not infinite, so the actual voltage of my nixie power supply was more 
like 220V, which I produced gradually to make sure I didn't go over 50V. 
Obviously an actual 50V power supply would be better!

All of this is just to demonstrate the principles of the DM160, rather than 
to act as a recipe for how they should actually be controlled! I broke two 
lamps while experimenting, in different ways. In the first lamp I applied 
>1V to the filament and it burned out after a few seconds!. Second, a 
filament shorted to the grid so I couldn't control the grid voltage any 
more. The first problem was just me being dumb. I have no idea why the 
second problem occurred, so you have been warned! Fortunately these lamps 
are cheap, but I am concerned that there is no apparent reason for the 
second problem...

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: Taylor Edge Nixie Clock Kit

[JohnK]

Well, I was waiting off for other comments to surface or for the kit supplier 
to pipe up.

 I see a few choices:-
- contact the supplier for comment
- measure waveforms/ logic levels and act accordingly
- try specially selecting 74LSxx that work in the location [might be 
temperamental with age, temperature etc]
- try using the components shown on the schematic, ie 74xx series. BUT, check 
power supply ratings etc first

If it were mine I would want to measure the goings-on with an oscilloscope.

John K.






- Original Message - 
  From: dave.do...@comcast.net 
  To: neonixie-l 
  Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2017 5:28 AM
  Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Taylor Edge Nixie Clock Kit


  Here is a copy of the BOM

  On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 6:37:54 PM UTC-6, dave@comcast.net wrote:
I'm hoping that someone out there can help me with a problem that I am 
having with a Taylor Edge clock kit that I built. After completing the kit and 
plugging it in it seemed to be working fine. Then I noticed that the 10s second 
display tube and the 10s minute display tube were not counting correctly. They 
would count from 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 but then it would go back to 3 then 4 then 
back to 2 and then start the sequence over again. The 1s second and 10s minute 
tubes would count fine. I asked a friend of mine that knows a lot more about 
this stuff than I do and he recommended that I try disconnecting resistors R13 
and R15 (both 240 ohm) from the time setting circuit to see what would happen. 
This fixed the counting problem but now I cannot set the time. I can't believe 
that I am the only person that has had this problem and am hoping someone out 
there knows the answer. I am attaching the schematic.


Thanks
Dave

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[neonixie-l] Re: Some vintage LED displays

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

Wow! Awesome...the purple ceramic ones look very nice.

I own a few led displays my self some cermic hp 4digit in size of a dip16 and 
some of these "bubble" ones.

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[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Roddy Scott]

Make a binary clock!

On Sunday, March 12, 2017 at 3:08:25 AM UTC, Paul Andrews wrote:
>
> A closeup of the filament structure. This is what attracted me to these 
> tubes. Now I just have to figure out what I want to do with them!
>

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[neonixie-l] Re: Lighting up a DM160

[Manuel Azevedo]

Me too please!
Thanks!

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