RE: [neonixie-l] Re: ZM1050 / Z550M

[johnk]

A bunch of my email delivery posts are out of order and missing some [for lots 
of groups].

I’ll comment anyway.

Notice that there is no smoothing capacitor in that diagram [if we are looking 
at the same one].

This means that  with the halfwave rectifier you are going to get pulsed DC 
rising to the peak of the sinewave 110V. That peak is 1.414 x RMS.

So, with luck you get 155V that is rising and falling and then a gap and then 
repeat. Assuming the 110 actually IS 110.

 

Different meters will give different answers because of the pulsing aspect of 
the DC. Moving coil meter will show average [0.318 x pk for this example]. DMMs 
depend – look at the manufacturer specs.

 

Hope I am not repeating other posts,

John K

 

 

From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Richard Scales
Sent: Sunday, 14 April 2019 14:40
To: neonixie-l
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: ZM1050 / Z550M

 

The main reason for not using that circuit is that I don't have that 
transformer to hand though I do have  many DC power supplies available and I 
just wanted to get the voltage right.

 

Having looked in to it in more detail is seems that it's just a half wave 
rectifier which should yield 0.45 x 110 V = 49.5V - so could I just use a 50V 
dc supply instead?

 

I would use a micro to generate the control signals - perhaps with a 74595 
shift register to reduce the pin count - does that all sound like a plan?

 

Richard

 



On Saturday, 13 April 2019 05:15:42 UTC+1, Richard Scales wrote:

I just discovered one of these tubes (labelled as a Dario ZM1050 / Z550M) in 
what looks like NOS condition.

I heave read a lot about from from various sources such as: 
https://www.dos4ever.com/Z550M/Z550M.html and here 
http://www.tubebbs.com/tubedata/sheets/013/z/ZM1050.pdf and I note that several 
articles refer to driving them in normal 'Nixie' mode rather than using the 5V 
switching that they were designed to support.

 

Before I hook this up to the grid I wonder if anyone here can confirm voltages 
and anode resistor values that might stop me from frying the thing as I also 
read that they might be few and far between.

 

>From various specs I have found they seem to suggest a supply voltage of 90V 
>ac and a cathode current of around 3mA. I am insufficiently qualified to 
>translate that to the 170v DC supply, strike and maintaining voltages (and 
>hence series resistor values) that I am more comfortable with.

 

The pinout shows a cathode, an anode and st0 - st9 and from what I can 
understand from the notes is seems that the original design concept was to 
drive st0 - st9 with 5V levels as high voltage transistors were not readily 
available at the time.

 

Has anyone driven these in any way and if so, would they be able to provide 
some further insight?

 

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[neonixie-l] Re: ZM1050 / Z550M

[Richard Scales]

The main reason for not using that circuit is that I don't have that 
transformer to hand though I do have  many DC power supplies available and 
I just wanted to get the voltage right.

Having looked in to it in more detail is seems that it's just a half wave 
rectifier which should yield 0.45 x 110 V = 49.5V - so could I just use a 
50V dc supply instead?

I would use a micro to generate the control signals - perhaps with a 74595 
shift register to reduce the pin count - does that all sound like a plan?

Richard



On Saturday, 13 April 2019 05:15:42 UTC+1, Richard Scales wrote:
>
> I just discovered one of these tubes (labelled as a Dario ZM1050 / Z550M) 
> in what looks like NOS condition.
> I heave read a lot about from from various sources such as: 
> https://www.dos4ever.com/Z550M/Z550M.html and here 
> http://www.tubebbs.com/tubedata/sheets/013/z/ZM1050.pdf and I note that 
> several articles refer to driving them in normal 'Nixie' mode rather than 
> using the 5V switching that they were designed to support.
>
> Before I hook this up to the grid I wonder if anyone here can confirm 
> voltages and anode resistor values that might stop me from frying the thing 
> as I also read that they might be few and far between.
>
> From various specs I have found they seem to suggest a supply voltage of 
> 90V ac and a cathode current of around 3mA. I am insufficiently qualified 
> to translate that to the 170v DC supply, strike and maintaining voltages 
> (and hence series resistor values) that I am more comfortable with.
>
> The pinout shows a cathode, an anode and st0 - st9 and from what I can 
> understand from the notes is seems that the original design concept was to 
> drive st0 - st9 with 5V levels as high voltage transistors were not readily 
> available at the time.
>
> Has anyone driven these in any way and if so, would they be able to 
> provide some further insight?
>
>

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Re: [neonixie-l] FS: Medium/Large NOS tubes available, tested

[Kevin A.]

Hi Michael,

I accept your offer of $300 shipped for the (6) Z5660M + (1) Z5670M + (7)
sockets.
The IN-18s sold just 30 minutes before!

Please PM me with your PayPal email and I can send you an invoice.

Thanks,
Kevin

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 7:46 PM Michail Wilson  wrote:

> Kevin,
>
>
>
> I’ll offer $300 shipped for the Z5660M setup with sockets.
>
> I’ll offer $240 shipped for the IN-18’s.
>
>
>
> And, I am interested in the projects you have in mind.  J
>
>
>
> Michail Wilson
>
> 206-920-6312
>
>
>
> *From:* neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Kevin A.
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 13, 2019 12:48 PM
> *To:* neonixie-l
> *Subject:* [neonixie-l] FS: Medium/Large NOS tubes available, tested
>
>
>
> Hi Guys,
>
>
>
> I have a few tubes; more than I know what to do with. I thought I'd list
> them here first before fleaBay.
>
>
>
> I have 6 NOS Z5660m's available, paired with one Z5670m (plus, minus, and
> sine wave symbol tube). I'll also throw in the 7 matching, unused Elrado
> B13B sockets I have.
>
>
>
> I also have 6 NOS IN-18 tubes, matching 86 date code. I applied a
> "special-treatment" that I sometimes put on tubes with fragile pins,
> consisting of carefully applied potting compound around the glass to metal
> base. This provides a hard adhesive fillet around the base of each pin,
> reducing the fragility of the glass to metal seal which is notorious for
> cracking or out-gassing. Please be aware that if you use these in an
> under-lit LED application that this treatment will not allow LED light into
> the tube.
>
>
>
> I'll entertain reasonable offers. I could use the space and funds for
> actual ongoing projects.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kevin
>
> --
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-- 
Kevin Aghaei
Rutgers School of Engineering
Class of 2018

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RE: [neonixie-l] FS: Medium/Large NOS tubes available, tested

[Michail Wilson]

Kevin,

 

I’ll offer $300 shipped for the Z5660M setup with sockets.

I’ll offer $240 shipped for the IN-18’s.

 

And, I am interested in the projects you have in mind.  J

 

Michail Wilson

206-920-6312

 

From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Kevin A.
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2019 12:48 PM
To: neonixie-l
Subject: [neonixie-l] FS: Medium/Large NOS tubes available, tested

 

Hi Guys,

 

I have a few tubes; more than I know what to do with. I thought I'd list them 
here first before fleaBay.

 

I have 6 NOS Z5660m's available, paired with one Z5670m (plus, minus, and sine 
wave symbol tube). I'll also throw in the 7 matching, unused Elrado B13B 
sockets I have.

 

I also have 6 NOS IN-18 tubes, matching 86 date code. I applied a 
"special-treatment" that I sometimes put on tubes with fragile pins, consisting 
of carefully applied potting compound around the glass to metal base. This 
provides a hard adhesive fillet around the base of each pin, reducing the 
fragility of the glass to metal seal which is notorious for cracking or 
out-gassing. Please be aware that if you use these in an under-lit LED 
application that this treatment will not allow LED light into the tube. 

 

I'll entertain reasonable offers. I could use the space and funds for actual 
ongoing projects. 

 

Thanks,

Kevin 

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Re: [neonixie-l] All Tube Dekatron Spinner Problems

[Thomas Kummer]

Actually I found an INS-1, and when I attached the INS-1 I got one cathode to 
light up on the GS10D. I’m thinking that the problem now is the cathode 
resistor, now I’m trying to figure out which one that is.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 13, 2019, at 15:53, Jon  wrote:
> 
> Mmm yes, quite right. At the absolute minimum striking voltage the formation 
> of the glow will be slow (potentially many seconds), ambient light dependent 
> and these days pretty uncertain as the tube will not likely conform to specs 
> after such long storage (we know that GS10D and similar tubes degrade in 
> storage - what Martin is referring to as outgassing). When testing GS10D I 
> run them up to 625V (transiently) before deciding whether or not they're dead 
> or dying.
> 
> I doubt the loose base is the issue. Most dekatrons with loose bases just 
> have a bit of failure in the cement that holds the base shell onto the bottom 
> of the tube - it's not directly involved in the integrity of the glass 
> envelope per se. Nothing that a judicious drop of glue can't stabilise...
> 
> I'd suggest debugging the circuit on one of the tubes that Mike designed it 
> for, and then adapting it to your GS10D.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jon.
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Re: [neonixie-l] All Tube Dekatron Spinner Problems

[Jon]

Mmm yes, quite right. At the absolute minimum striking voltage the 
formation of the glow will be slow (potentially many seconds), 
ambient light dependent and these days pretty uncertain as the tube 
will not likely conform to specs after such long storage (we know that 
GS10D and similar tubes degrade in storage - what Martin is referring to as 
outgassing). When testing GS10D I run them up to 625V (transiently) before 
deciding whether or not they're dead or dying.

I doubt the loose base is the issue. Most dekatrons with loose bases just 
have a bit of failure in the cement that holds the base shell onto the 
bottom of the tube - it's not directly involved in the integrity of the 
glass envelope per se. Nothing that a judicious drop of glue can't 
stabilise...

I'd suggest debugging the circuit on one of the tubes that Mike designed it 
for, and then adapting it to your GS10D.

Cheers,

Jon.

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: ZM1050 / Z550M

[Dekatron42]

They weren't meant to be driven as Nixies, but they can be even though I 
guess that the data on how long they will survive is incorrect in the 
datasheets under those conditions. Just 1000 hours for one digit 
continuously displayed and 2h hours with digits changing every 100 
hours for normal conditions.

There is another portion of that Elektor article which mentions that the 
Z550M/ZM1050 can be used in Ring-Counters (Ronald shows that on his webpage 
too) where they use 250V to make it work. The article also mentions that 
the voltage drop is some 85-115V across the neon element and with the 
resistors used it than circuit it seems correct.

Why not use them in the circuit above, that is really easy.

/Martin

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Re: [neonixie-l] All Tube Dekatron Spinner Problems

[Dekatron42]

If they have become slightly out-gassed or cathode poisoned they need more 
than 450V.

Nominal voltage is 475V in the datasheet and they need more than that - I 
have a few that work well when driven at 550V and one that worked well 
closer to 600V but not at nominal voltages.

/Martin

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Re: [neonixie-l] All Tube Dekatron Spinner Problems

[Thomas Kummer]

I measured 448V anode to cathode, and changed the anode resistor to 220K. I’m 
starting to worry that the tube may be bad. I tested it with a plasma ball and 
it lit up. However, the base is now loose on the tube, and I don’t have the 
plasma ball with me at the moment. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 13, 2019, at 15:01, Jon  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 7:22:09 PM UTC+1, Thomas Kummer wrote:
>> Should the Dekatron still glow? 
>> 
> 
> The INS1 is used as part of a relaxation oscillator to generate guide pulses 
> to step the tube, so if that were the only issue, yes the tube should still 
> glow.
> 
> However, the GS10D has different operating characteristics than the 
> neon-based tubes that Mike designed the circuit for so at the very least the 
> anode resistor will need reducing (because the GS10D operates at a higher 
> current than those tubes). I've never built this circuit, but a priori I 
> wouldn't assume it would work - the GS10D needs a minimum 440V anode to 
> cathode voltage to strike - not sure this circuit delivers that?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jon.
> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] All Tube Dekatron Spinner Problems

[Jon]

On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 7:22:09 PM UTC+1, Thomas Kummer wrote:
>
> Should the Dekatron still glow? 
>
>
The INS1 is used as part of a relaxation oscillator to generate guide 
pulses to step the tube, so if that were the only issue, yes the tube 
should still glow.

However, the GS10D has different operating characteristics than the 
neon-based tubes that Mike designed the circuit for so at the very least 
the anode resistor will need reducing (because the GS10D operates at a 
higher current than those tubes). I've never built this circuit, but a 
priori I wouldn't assume it would work - the GS10D needs a minimum 
440V anode to cathode voltage to strike - not sure this circuit delivers 
that?

Cheers,

Jon.

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Re: [neonixie-l] All Tube Dekatron Spinner Problems

[Thomas Kummer]

Should the Dekatron still glow? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 13, 2019, at 14:05, robin bussell  wrote:
> 
>> On 13/04/2019 18:46, Thomas Kummer wrote:
>> Hi, I’m trying to make Threeneurons all tube variable Dekatron spinner. I 
>> got everything I need aside from the INS-1, I tried to short the two wires 
>> that connected to it, but the Dekatron wouldn’t spin. Would this schematic 
>> work without it?  Or, do I have to have an INS-1, or some other neon lamp 
>> there. I’m trying to do this with a GS10D(Purple Dekatron) the last time I 
>> tested the tube (Plasma ball) it worked fine. However, I have noticed that 
>> the base is loose on it now. I tested the voltage at the Dekatron anode and 
>> cathode(s) and got 450v.
> I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that INS-1 is being used to form a 
> relaxation oscillator so you won't get any movement without it.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Robin.
> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] All Tube Dekatron Spinner Problems

[Thomas Kummer]

Thanks I had s feeling that it was important. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 13, 2019, at 14:05, robin bussell  wrote:
> 
>> On 13/04/2019 18:46, Thomas Kummer wrote:
>> Hi, I’m trying to make Threeneurons all tube variable Dekatron spinner. I 
>> got everything I need aside from the INS-1, I tried to short the two wires 
>> that connected to it, but the Dekatron wouldn’t spin. Would this schematic 
>> work without it?  Or, do I have to have an INS-1, or some other neon lamp 
>> there. I’m trying to do this with a GS10D(Purple Dekatron) the last time I 
>> tested the tube (Plasma ball) it worked fine. However, I have noticed that 
>> the base is loose on it now. I tested the voltage at the Dekatron anode and 
>> cathode(s) and got 450v.
> I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that INS-1 is being used to form a 
> relaxation oscillator so you won't get any movement without it.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Robin.
> 
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Re: [neonixie-l] All Tube Dekatron Spinner Problems

[robin bussell]

On 13/04/2019 18:46, Thomas Kummer wrote:

Hi, I’m trying to make Threeneurons all tube variable Dekatron spinner. I got 
everything I need aside from the INS-1, I tried to short the two wires that 
connected to it, but the Dekatron wouldn’t spin. Would this schematic work 
without it?  Or, do I have to have an INS-1, or some other neon lamp there. I’m 
trying to do this with a GS10D(Purple Dekatron) the last time I tested the tube 
(Plasma ball) it worked fine. However, I have noticed that the base is loose on 
it now. I tested the voltage at the Dekatron anode and cathode(s) and got 450v.

I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that INS-1 is being used to form a 
relaxation oscillator so you won't get any movement without it.



Cheers,
 Robin.

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[neonixie-l] All Tube Dekatron Spinner Problems

[Thomas Kummer]

Hi, I’m trying to make Threeneurons all tube variable Dekatron spinner. I got 
everything I need aside from the INS-1, I tried to short the two wires that 
connected to it, but the Dekatron wouldn’t spin. Would this schematic work 
without it?  Or, do I have to have an INS-1, or some other neon lamp there. I’m 
trying to do this with a GS10D(Purple Dekatron) the last time I tested the tube 
(Plasma ball) it worked fine. However, I have noticed that the base is loose on 
it now. I tested the voltage at the Dekatron anode and cathode(s) and got 450v. 

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: ZM1050 / Z550M

[Richard Scales]

Ah OK, 0.318 x input volts so about 32v DC?, is that correct?

On Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 17:07 Richard Scales,  wrote:

> Its been a while since I needed with this kind of thing. The 110v is half
> wave rectified, does that mean that roughly 55v DC is presented to the tube
> via the series resistor then the 5v logic levels are switching the
> individual numbers on and off? No need for 170v DC from a nixie PSU type
> thing then?
> It's crazy, I studied electrical and electronic engineering in the early
> 80's and seem to have forgotten everything! Thank you for the pointer.
>
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 14:24 Dekatron42,  wrote:
>
>> Ronald Dekker, www.dos4ever.com, wrote about the Z550M/ZM1050 in the
>> Elektor Magazine #12-2009 on pages 76 & 77 where he showed the circuit
>> below, which is probably the simplest way of hooking it up, from that you
>> can design your own circuit quite easily.
>>
>>
>> /Martin
>>
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>

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Re: [neonixie-l] Re: ZM1050 / Z550M

[Richard Scales]

Its been a while since I needed with this kind of thing. The 110v is half
wave rectified, does that mean that roughly 55v DC is presented to the tube
via the series resistor then the 5v logic levels are switching the
individual numbers on and off? No need for 170v DC from a nixie PSU type
thing then?
It's crazy, I studied electrical and electronic engineering in the early
80's and seem to have forgotten everything! Thank you for the pointer.


On Sat, 13 Apr 2019, 14:24 Dekatron42,  wrote:

> Ronald Dekker, www.dos4ever.com, wrote about the Z550M/ZM1050 in the
> Elektor Magazine #12-2009 on pages 76 & 77 where he showed the circuit
> below, which is probably the simplest way of hooking it up, from that you
> can design your own circuit quite easily.
>
>
> /Martin
>
> --
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[neonixie-l] Re: ZM1050 / Z550M

[Dekatron42]

Ronald Dekker, www.dos4ever.com, wrote about the Z550M/ZM1050 in the 
Elektor Magazine #12-2009 on pages 76 & 77 where he showed the circuit 
below, which is probably the simplest way of hooking it up, from that you 
can design your own circuit quite easily.


/Martin

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[neonixie-l] Re: For those in the UK...

[Alex]

How on earth do you move a spiked glass sphere? I have to presume the 
spikes are removable!
Lovely pieces.

While on the slightly off topic, here is another art installation that is 
vaguely relevant to the interests of this group in that it is time focussed 
- A 24 hour long montage of clocks in film and TV, stitched to match real 
time. Quite a feat. 

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2018/sep/10/christian-marclay-the-clock-tate-modern-london

- Alex

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