Re: [neonixie-l] Re: US power grid frequency tests.
The vast majority of line powered clocks use the grid frequency for timing, both analog and digital. It's great because I can set all the clocks and they all stay exactly in sync with one another. Oh, they still will. They'll just all be wrong. - John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
[neonixie-l] Re: now a full 7179 clock from the same seller, check out those tubes
On Jun 30, 8:53 am, JohnK yend...@internode.on.net wrote: Generally, old electrolytic caps that have just been allowed to sit can be re-formed and henceforth operate properly. That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Of the kit I've rebuilt, the electrolytics have typically dried out, and thus cannot be reformed. Many were not sealed well and as they were operating is a hostile-ish environment (near tubes and other sources of heat), they often dry completely. Nick -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
RE: [neonixie-l] Re: now a full 7179 clock from the same seller, check out those tubes
Isn't it that electrocaps that ar strongly over rated in working voltage, wear out sooner as caps that are working close below the max voltage? This due to electrochemical degradation of the electrolytic dielectrum. Actualy the same as due to long storage. eric -Original Message- From: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com [mailto:neonixie-l@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of JohnK Sent: donderdag 30 juni 2011 15:01 To: neonixie-l@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: now a full 7179 clock from the same seller, check out those tubes Yes it was wasn't it. However the scenario I had in mind [and my experience] both allow for 'probably' OK. The mil capacitors of post-war gear have been good for treatment if just lousy due to storage time. The capacitors in old commercial radios any era depend on manufacturer. I don't collect them but had re-furbished two with sentimental value - hence the caps are disconnected and new types 'temporarily' fitted. This is to protect the mains transformer as much as anything else. Added thermal fuse to transformers as insurance -weak as it may be. WWII caps are hit and miss. The capacitors that you mention a hostile-ish environment (near tubes and other sources of heat), are in a category that I call Faulty or worn out. I am/was talking about OK caps that were stored for ages - they can be revitalised [generally] and I hear such comments from WWII Rx collectors eg WS19 which is much in vogue over your way. I have had more trouble with 'modern' caps. Even the manufacturers specs don't give you much confidence in commercial quality electros. I can remember the probs we [a gov dept] experienced at inwards goods - eg the Philips electros came in different 'life' categories. They were marked the same; only difference was the physical size. Some suppliers were either trying it on or were as ignorant as some of our inspectors ! With 'modern' gear I replace instead of mucking about; and some collector will rant and rave about it in 50 years :-)) Speaking of modern - a capacitor characteristic often overlooked in current times is the manufacturer specified operating voltage RANGE. Using a cap well below the marked voltage causes it to do two things; lose capacitance and also become resistive [ie leaky, but not liquid if you follow me]. In the 90s I was trouble-shooter at a largish [2000 employee] local company and there were product recalls due to acceptance of electro caps of higher than specified voltage. eg 50V instead of 6V. The circuit already worked at a non-optimum 2.5V across the cap and that was acknowledged in the design. I guess I was motivated by my hate of needless destruction of old gear. Attempt a reform - replace if required. John K. [PS The very old electros that slosh when you move them are better 'temporarily' replaced as I have done in my old Airzone. An explosion of those is a real mess and dangerous. The explosion of a typical WWII and later type just results in a bit of paste splatter and tons of paper and foil. (says I who had just moved his unprotetced eyes to the other side of my home-made 6 x 807 surplus parts guitar amp. As a schoolboy I just purchased the WWII surplus caps and wired them up. 800V parts and used at 650V. )] [PPS. I suppose this is one of those topics you mentioned that moved off-topic is it?] - Original Message - From: Nick n...@desmith.net On Jun 30, 8:53 am, JohnK yend...@internode.on.net wrote: Generally, old electrolytic caps that have just been allowed to sit can be re-formed and henceforth operate properly. From: Nick n...@desmith.net That's a bit of a sweeping statement. Of the kit I've rebuilt, the electrolytics have typically dried out, and thus cannot be reformed. Many were not sealed well and as they were operating is a hostile-ish environment (near tubes and other sources of heat), they often dry completely. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
[neonixie-l] Re: now a full 7179 clock from the same seller, check out those tubes
| I have had more trouble with 'modern' caps. ... | | Speaking of modern - a capacitor characteristic often overlooked in current | times is the manufacturer specified operating voltage RANGE. Using a cap | well below the marked voltage causes it to do two things; lose capacitance | and also become resistive [ie leaky, but not liquid if you follow me]. | ... product recalls due to acceptance of electro caps of higher | than specified voltage. eg 50V instead of 6V. | | John K. That reminds me of some advice some 'old timers' use to give me. As opposed to resistors, where you use power ratings 2 to 4x the power actually being dissipated, with electrolytics, you want to run them as close as the max rated voltage as possible. Even occasionally going over the rated voltage, was okay, according to the old guys. You don't see that advice given in modern data sheets. They could have spec'd the caps differently back then. It does make some sense, considering how the dielectric layer is 'formed'. If the applied voltage is too low, then the dielectric layer may degrade. Raising the ESR, initially, but may cause the cap to become leaky (electrons, not goo, but goo may follow). If you look at how electrolytics are made, its pretty amazing that they work at all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor Their specs are pretty crappy, compared to other types. All they got going for them is capacitance density. Of course, I still use them. Don't get me started on tantalums ! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: now a full 7179 clock from the same seller, check out those tubes
Depends on def of 'old-timer' - I am 60 :-) The caps I mentioned caused probs in mid1990s . The life-vs-volts was available in the manufacturer data that the Lab used. Often very detailed spec sheets were sourced from the manufacturers. And capacitor purchases were in the millions - promoted a degree of cooperation. with electrolytics, you want to run them as close as the max rated voltage as possible. is exactly what I was attempting to impart :-(( John K. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] old caps in old stuff
This is a perspective that I'm very familiar with and it is a popular one on the Swan users list. I think it has to do with the preferred end-result: 1) A restoration or 2) A fix My first HF rig was a Swan 500c that was given to me broken about a year ago. My only previous experience with vintage radios of any kind was an old console AM radio that I repaired in my teens (Has anyone tried to plug in that piece of furniture? I'll bet I can make it work).. I learned a lot about HF Transceivers and Swan transceivers in particular, but one of the things I found above all else is that you could divide the users into the above two groups. The second being the users group. You could ask a question of the group like: Hey, how much drift should these rigs have when they are properly warmed up and in good working condition? and you'd get a response like, Mine sits on the shelf! It doesn't drift at all! (hur, hur).. A typical response of a restorer. Once restored, the rig goes into perfect museum mode. I'm not trying to knock those people, it's their hobby, but it's different than mine. My objective was to make a daily driver, not a museum piece. It is simply a matter of fact that _sometimes_ (non-zero), when those oil paper capacitors fail, they short. When that happens in a radio, you're getting plate voltages headed into parts of the rig that are not designed to have plate voltages. Better safe than sorry. I found that there are basically two problems with replacing old caps with modern caps: 1) The modern caps are WAY smaller than the old caps, requiring a bit of ingenuity at times to figure out the best way to place them 2) The old caps sometimes leaked current even when new, and the circuit was designed around that fact. You replace a cap with a modern one, and all of a sudden the circuit doesn't work anymore. Solution is to add a bleeder resistor across the cap, to allow a small amount of current leak through like the original did. When I replaced the original 6LQ6 finals with 31LQ6's (6LQ6 is $70/each, 31LQ6 is $15/each) I was met with either horror [from the restorers] or requests for information on how it is done [from the users]. The power supply in my rig is a chopped up mess, but is more functional than the original ever was. The original multi-cap can electrolytic is now just there for looks, the real caps are installed on the board below. About the only caps that I found to still be in good working condition in this rig (~1968) were the ceramic disc caps. Those were all still working great, even the HV ones. A lot of the resistors had failed, though.. Some of those resistor divider circuits that were designed to have 100k resistors now had 30k resistors. I didn't know that resistors did that, but I do now. :) -Adam On 6/30/2011 12:53 AM, JohnK wrote: Generally, old electrolytic caps that have just been allowed to sit can be re-formed and henceforth operate properly. This allows the vintage component to remain in the vintage set. [Second-last resort is to hide a new type inside the old case. Last resort is to 'destroy' the vintage item by a butchery replacement. [Always keep all the old components for the next owner]. There are military re-former equipments. One has a table of capacitance vs allowed leakage current vs voltage. Google for more info - but beware the Audiophools. John Kaesehagen. [PS. Reforming is just the [slow] application of a [preferably guarded] voltage to the capacitor - exactly as was done during manufacture. ] -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
[neonixie-l] Re: now a full 7179 clock from the same seller, check out those tubes
From what I have heard that electrolytic capacitor chemical ingredients are treated like the Holy Grail by the capacitor manufacturers. The formulations are protected since this can make or break a manufacturer. The voltage and capacitance of course is determined by the chemical composition of the electrolyte and the physical size and material composition. Companies are quite aware of what badly designed products can do to thier business...regards... On 30 June, 12:05, threeneurons threeneur...@yahoo.com wrote: | I have had more trouble with 'modern' caps. ... | | Speaking of modern - a capacitor characteristic often overlooked in current | times is the manufacturer specified operating voltage RANGE. Using a cap | well below the marked voltage causes it to do two things; lose capacitance | and also become resistive [ie leaky, but not liquid if you follow me]. | ... product recalls due to acceptance of electro caps of higher | than specified voltage. eg 50V instead of 6V. | | John K. That reminds me of some advice some 'old timers' use to give me. As opposed to resistors, where you use power ratings 2 to 4x the power actually being dissipated, with electrolytics, you want to run them as close as the max rated voltage as possible. Even occasionally going over the rated voltage, was okay, according to the old guys. You don't see that advice given in modern data sheets. They could have spec'd the caps differently back then. It does make some sense, considering how the dielectric layer is 'formed'. If the applied voltage is too low, then the dielectric layer may degrade. Raising the ESR, initially, but may cause the cap to become leaky (electrons, not goo, but goo may follow). If you look at how electrolytics are made, its pretty amazing that they work at all: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_capacitor Their specs are pretty crappy, compared to other types. All they got going for them is capacitance density. Of course, I still use them. Don't get me started on tantalums ! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
[neonixie-l] Re: US power grid frequency tests.
On Jun 30, 1:01 am, JohnK yend...@internode.on.net wrote: - Original Message - Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] Re: US power grid frequency tests. The vast majority of line powered clocks use the grid frequency for timing, All this talk of line frequency reminds me of when we attached a 'powerful' audio sig gen to the lecture room clock back in 1968. Got us 10 mins less boredom. I remember reading about something like that, probably more than 25 years ago when I was still in high school. Apparently there was a certain professor who was so meticulous in preparing and pacing his lectures, that with seldom even a glance at the clock, he always managed to have them end right at the end of the class period. Some ingenious hardware hacker students did as you described and messed with the prof's head by speeding up and slowing down the clock, just to watch him get flustered from running out of time or having time left over at the ends of his presentations. I always wondered just how it was done, and the size of the hardware that would be required. Of course today it's fairly trivial to do in a small package, but back then, I'm not so sure. A.J. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: US power grid frequency tests.
On 6/30/11 8:25 PM, A.J. Franzman wrote: All this talk of line frequency reminds me of when we attached a 'powerful' audio sig gen to the lecture room clock back in 1968. Got us 10 mins less boredom. I always wondered just how it was done, and the size of the hardware that would be required. Of course today it's fairly trivial to do in a small package, but back then, I'm not so sure. A.J. I used to own an HP 201B audio signal generator. It was powerful enough to ring a telephone bell, providing 100V RMS at 20 Hz. -- David Forbes, Tucson AZ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
[neonixie-l] Looking for Clock kit for ZM1050 Tubes
Howdy Group! Didnt realize the yahoo group closed. Glad to be back here. I would like to make a clock using ZM1050 tubes, can anyone help with a kit of know of any that would work for sale. I also need for sockets for ZM1050 tubes. Thanks in advance! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: US power grid frequency tests.
You must be a real phone fan to know that proper ring generation is at 20Hz, I'm impressed! On 2011 Jun 30, at 20:34 , David Forbes wrote: I used to own an HP 201B audio signal generator. It was powerful enough to ring a telephone bell, providing 100V RMS at 20 Hz. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
Re: [neonixie-l] Re: US power grid frequency tests.
On 6/30/11 9:30 PM, Wayne de Geere III wrote: You must be a real phone fan to know that proper ring generation is at 20Hz, I'm impressed! On 2011 Jun 30, at 20:34 , David Forbes wrote: I used to own an HP 201B audio signal generator. It was powerful enough to ring a telephone bell, providing 100V RMS at 20 Hz. Yes, I am. I have an analog PBX in my house. I was building a cordless Western Electric 2500 desk set, so I needed to ring the original bell with a 3.6V battery pack. I ended up rewinding the coil for lower voltage and using a 555 timer oscillator feeding an H-bridge driver to make it ring. It sounded exactly like the real thing. -- David Forbes, Tucson AZ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups neonixie-l group. To post to this group, send an email to neonixie-l@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to neonixie-l+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/neonixie-l?hl=en-GB.
