Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets
s of a creation > that is already there but just folded up and invisible? I have only > recently started reading Bohm, just last year, and could be reading him > entirely out of context. What you say about momentary structures sounds > very relevant to Bohm if I am hearing correctly. > > Admittedly I have no real education or training, much less expertise, on > what grammar is, and could be totally full of BS as the scrabble image > indicates. A jive turkey as it were. > > Perhaps also with jazz, there is improvisation and collaboration more so > than with the execution of a classical score. There may be a valid > difference here musically, at least in the poetic sense. It may have > something to do with the fabric of execution. What is the fabric? > Classical may be more instructional, as it were, and jazz more > participatory. Bohm wrote a lot about participatory thought in both *On > Dialogue* and *On Creativity*. And, the proprioception of thought, or > internally feeling thought subjectively and not just rationally. In > participatory models, my sense is that Bohm felt it was less about > instruction, execution, and replication, and more about free-form > permutation within a communicative system, "through-meaning" rather than > "two-meaning," "dia" meaning through and not two. This is poetically sort > of what I meant by learning, teaching, and being taught. There are > "flavors" of each, which I'm not at all sure how to define, one perhaps > being more improvisational, the other more instructional. Or, one flavor > being more "instrumentalized" in its spin or logic and another being less > so, call it "de-instrumentalized," in the Kantian sense of "ends in > themselves, never as means only." > > The scrabble words I saw were kin, Eli, Canute, reincarnation, jive, God, > BS, USA, and turb, I think. > > Bohm in *On Dialogue* also emphasizes the need for non-occupation in > liberal doses. Without this, he seems not to believe creativity can occur, > only repetition, yet it is something I often do far too little of! > > Very best regards, and thanks for your generous replies, > > Max > > > -- > *From:* NetBehaviour on > behalf of Alan Sondheim via NetBehaviour < > netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:42 PM > *To:* NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity < > netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> > *Cc:* Alan Sondheim > *Subject:* Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets > > grammar wasn't invented (except of course for computer and other > artificial languages like Esperanto); it might have been codified after the > fact (Panini's Sanskrit being my favorite example, since his grammar is > actually a form of computer programming at least two thousand years old). > And learning, teaching, or being taught - in various ways every organism > does this. The world is momentary structures that have always already been > with us in a sense - > > Best!, Alan > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 7:39 PM Max Herman via NetBehaviour < > netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> wrote: > > > Good point! > > Maybe, "being, unfolding, making explicate > Grammar on the fly, with no thought yet > Of learning, teaching, or being taught > All kin, earliest folk, all groups greater than one > Since the first cell and first particle"? > > It's a hardscrabble gleaning sometimes; > More when my leaves are falling like its own! > > > -- > *From:* Alan Sondheim > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:07 PM > *To:* Max Herman via NetBehaviour > *Cc:* Max Herman > *Subject:* Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets > > > > love this, only wanted to say that there was always already grammar, > always already structure to being in the world, not " Early folk creating > grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being taught it. " > we were never, none of us in the world, nor animals, nor any, creating > grammar that way; I remember Heinz von Foerster describing culture > beginning with negation, even amoeba have culture, have that - > > Best!, Alan > > On Tue, 27 Aug 2019, Max Herman via NetBehaviour wrote: > > > > > Take a pebble for instance, an item, > > One of the few and many that can be picked up by hand. > > Some are like this. > > Some can also be instruments, sticks or stones, alongside the immovable > > base-grounds. > > Hence thou hast compositions, counting, forms, names, phrases, and such. > > Early folk creatin
Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets
USA, and turb, I think. Bohm in On Dialogue also emphasizes the need for non-occupation in liberal doses. Without this, he seems not to believe creativity can occur, only repetition, yet it is something I often do far too little of! Very best regards, and thanks for your generous replies, Max From: NetBehaviour on behalf of Alan Sondheim via NetBehaviour Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:42 PM To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity Cc: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets grammar wasn't invented (except of course for computer and other artificial languages like Esperanto); it might have been codified after the fact (Panini's Sanskrit being my favorite example, since his grammar is actually a form of computer programming at least two thousand years old). And learning, teaching, or being taught - in various ways every organism does this. The world is momentary structures that have always already been with us in a sense - Best!, Alan On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 7:39 PM Max Herman via NetBehaviour mailto:netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org>> wrote: Good point! Maybe, "being, unfolding, making explicate Grammar on the fly, with no thought yet Of learning, teaching, or being taught All kin, earliest folk, all groups greater than one Since the first cell and first particle"? It's a hardscrabble gleaning sometimes; More when my leaves are falling like its own! From: Alan Sondheim mailto:sondh...@panix.com>> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:07 PM To: Max Herman via NetBehaviour mailto:netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org>> Cc: Max Herman mailto:maxnmher...@hotmail.com>> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets love this, only wanted to say that there was always already grammar, always already structure to being in the world, not " Early folk creating grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being taught it. " we were never, none of us in the world, nor animals, nor any, creating grammar that way; I remember Heinz von Foerster describing culture beginning with negation, even amoeba have culture, have that - Best!, Alan On Tue, 27 Aug 2019, Max Herman via NetBehaviour wrote: > > Take a pebble for instance, an item, > One of the few and many that can be picked up by hand. > Some are like this. > Some can also be instruments, sticks or stones, alongside the immovable > base-grounds. > Hence thou hast compositions, counting, forms, names, phrases, and such. > Early folk creating grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being taught > it. > What counts the quiet though, the quietus? > There can be no count without that, no seeing, not even any hearing. > Well the breathing counts it, says the brain. > Imagine all paint and no canvas! > You lose track of your sons. > Were they ever even yours, oh fleet of foot? > Wild turkeys cross the streets coolly around here, > Up from the Mississippi, > And I thank them daily for it. > More than one story-set or circle of the world > Calls life breath, the one and the all > An old-time bellows or mill that moves particles > Like Da Vinci drew > Each pebble a point and a pointer, if marked, > And of course a black square. > > > From: NetBehaviour > mailto:netbehaviour-boun...@lists.netbehaviour.org>> > on behalf > of Alan Sondheim mailto:sondh...@panix.com>> > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 6:11 PM > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity > mailto:netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org>> > Subject: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets > > > Goddess of Storms and Alphabets > > http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030727.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030738.JPG > > I'm not sure how language would begin, not sure how language would > be recorded as a gesture accompanied by a sound. Sure to be sounds > accompanying gestures that hardened, somewhen into a signal or > call, somehow a meaning. The sounds were ghostings, heard over the > hill around the hill in the forest across the stream behind the > rocks above the cliffs within the caves, the gestures were bodies, > the bodies were breathing, there were two directions, into the > lungs, out from the lungs. There were swirls and whirlwinds and the > world breathed and was given body and bodies. It was cool to hear a > knowledge from one who was knowing, invisible, elsewhere. There > were cries too from the woundings, there were disappearances of > familiar voices from leaving and dying which returned in memories > and dreams made real with them, the waking in the night, the > weeping and ululations. The world was enormous and narrow and all > around and the same
Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets
grammar wasn't invented (except of course for computer and other artificial languages like Esperanto); it might have been codified after the fact (Panini's Sanskrit being my favorite example, since his grammar is actually a form of computer programming at least two thousand years old). And learning, teaching, or being taught - in various ways every organism does this. The world is momentary structures that have always already been with us in a sense - Best!, Alan On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 7:39 PM Max Herman via NetBehaviour < netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> wrote: > > Good point! > > Maybe, "being, unfolding, making explicate > Grammar on the fly, with no thought yet > Of learning, teaching, or being taught > All kin, earliest folk, all groups greater than one > Since the first cell and first particle"? > > It's a hardscrabble gleaning sometimes; > More when my leaves are falling like its own! > > > -- > *From:* Alan Sondheim > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:07 PM > *To:* Max Herman via NetBehaviour > *Cc:* Max Herman > *Subject:* Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets > > > > love this, only wanted to say that there was always already grammar, > always already structure to being in the world, not " Early folk creating > grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being taught it. " > we were never, none of us in the world, nor animals, nor any, creating > grammar that way; I remember Heinz von Foerster describing culture > beginning with negation, even amoeba have culture, have that - > > Best!, Alan > > On Tue, 27 Aug 2019, Max Herman via NetBehaviour wrote: > > > > > Take a pebble for instance, an item, > > One of the few and many that can be picked up by hand. > > Some are like this. > > Some can also be instruments, sticks or stones, alongside the immovable > > base-grounds. > > Hence thou hast compositions, counting, forms, names, phrases, and such. > > Early folk creating grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being > taught > > it. > > What counts the quiet though, the quietus? > > There can be no count without that, no seeing, not even any hearing. > > Well the breathing counts it, says the brain. > > Imagine all paint and no canvas! > > You lose track of your sons. > > Were they ever even yours, oh fleet of foot? > > Wild turkeys cross the streets coolly around here, > > Up from the Mississippi, > > And I thank them daily for it. > > More than one story-set or circle of the world > > Calls life breath, the one and the all > > An old-time bellows or mill that moves particles > > Like Da Vinci drew > > Each pebble a point and a pointer, if marked, > > And of course a black square. > > > > > > > From: NetBehaviour on > behalf > > of Alan Sondheim > > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 6:11 PM > > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity > > > > Subject: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets > > > > > > Goddess of Storms and Alphabets > > > > http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030727.jpg > > http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030738.JPG > > > > I'm not sure how language would begin, not sure how language would > > be recorded as a gesture accompanied by a sound. Sure to be sounds > > accompanying gestures that hardened, somewhen into a signal or > > call, somehow a meaning. The sounds were ghostings, heard over the > > hill around the hill in the forest across the stream behind the > > rocks above the cliffs within the caves, the gestures were bodies, > > the bodies were breathing, there were two directions, into the > > lungs, out from the lungs. There were swirls and whirlwinds and the > > world breathed and was given body and bodies. It was cool to hear a > > knowledge from one who was knowing, invisible, elsewhere. There > > were cries too from the woundings, there were disappearances of > > familiar voices from leaving and dying which returned in memories > > and dreams made real with them, the waking in the night, the > > weeping and ululations. The world was enormous and narrow and all > > around and the same for many comings and goings for weeks and > > months at a time, or just a vision around the boulder surface or > > from the sky when things moved there, as they always did. The world > > was always different than the world, and always new and old, and > > always the world. The murmuring of the world was everywhere and > > everywhen and when that
Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets
Good point! Maybe, "being, unfolding, making explicate Grammar on the fly, with no thought yet Of learning, teaching, or being taught All kin, earliest folk, all groups greater than one Since the first cell and first particle"? It's a hardscrabble gleaning sometimes; More when my leaves are falling like its own! From: Alan Sondheim Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 6:07 PM To: Max Herman via NetBehaviour Cc: Max Herman Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets love this, only wanted to say that there was always already grammar, always already structure to being in the world, not " Early folk creating grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being taught it. " we were never, none of us in the world, nor animals, nor any, creating grammar that way; I remember Heinz von Foerster describing culture beginning with negation, even amoeba have culture, have that - Best!, Alan On Tue, 27 Aug 2019, Max Herman via NetBehaviour wrote: > > Take a pebble for instance, an item, > One of the few and many that can be picked up by hand. > Some are like this. > Some can also be instruments, sticks or stones, alongside the immovable > base-grounds. > Hence thou hast compositions, counting, forms, names, phrases, and such. > Early folk creating grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being taught > it. > What counts the quiet though, the quietus? > There can be no count without that, no seeing, not even any hearing. > Well the breathing counts it, says the brain. > Imagine all paint and no canvas! > You lose track of your sons. > Were they ever even yours, oh fleet of foot? > Wild turkeys cross the streets coolly around here, > Up from the Mississippi, > And I thank them daily for it. > More than one story-set or circle of the world > Calls life breath, the one and the all > An old-time bellows or mill that moves particles > Like Da Vinci drew > Each pebble a point and a pointer, if marked, > And of course a black square. > > > From: NetBehaviour on behalf > of Alan Sondheim > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 6:11 PM > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity > > Subject: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets > > > Goddess of Storms and Alphabets > > http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030727.jpg > http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030738.JPG > > I'm not sure how language would begin, not sure how language would > be recorded as a gesture accompanied by a sound. Sure to be sounds > accompanying gestures that hardened, somewhen into a signal or > call, somehow a meaning. The sounds were ghostings, heard over the > hill around the hill in the forest across the stream behind the > rocks above the cliffs within the caves, the gestures were bodies, > the bodies were breathing, there were two directions, into the > lungs, out from the lungs. There were swirls and whirlwinds and the > world breathed and was given body and bodies. It was cool to hear a > knowledge from one who was knowing, invisible, elsewhere. There > were cries too from the woundings, there were disappearances of > familiar voices from leaving and dying which returned in memories > and dreams made real with them, the waking in the night, the > weeping and ululations. The world was enormous and narrow and all > around and the same for many comings and goings for weeks and > months at a time, or just a vision around the boulder surface or > from the sky when things moved there, as they always did. The world > was always different than the world, and always new and old, and > always the world. The murmuring of the world was everywhere and > everywhen and when that became language and accountancy, everything > moved away, quietly, until distance itself became unfathomable, > unknown even in its familiarity. Sure to be sounds, sure to be. > > > ___ > NetBehaviour mailing list > NetBehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org > https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > > web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 347-383-8552 current text http://www.alansondheim.org/wj.txt ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets
love this, only wanted to say that there was always already grammar, always already structure to being in the world, not " Early folk creating grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being taught it. " we were never, none of us in the world, nor animals, nor any, creating grammar that way; I remember Heinz von Foerster describing culture beginning with negation, even amoeba have culture, have that - Best!, Alan On Tue, 27 Aug 2019, Max Herman via NetBehaviour wrote: Take a pebble for instance, an item, One of the few and many that can be picked up by hand. Some are like this. Some can also be instruments, sticks or stones, alongside the immovable base-grounds. Hence thou hast compositions, counting, forms, names, phrases, and such. Early folk creating grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being taught it. What counts the quiet though, the quietus? There can be no count without that, no seeing, not even any hearing. Well the breathing counts it, says the brain. Imagine all paint and no canvas! You lose track of your sons. Were they ever even yours, oh fleet of foot? Wild turkeys cross the streets coolly around here, Up from the Mississippi, And I thank them daily for it. More than one story-set or circle of the world Calls life breath, the one and the all An old-time bellows or mill that moves particles Like Da Vinci drew Each pebble a point and a pointer, if marked, And of course a black square. From: NetBehaviour on behalf of Alan Sondheim Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 6:11 PM To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity Subject: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets Goddess of Storms and Alphabets http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030727.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030738.JPG I'm not sure how language would begin, not sure how language would be recorded as a gesture accompanied by a sound. Sure to be sounds accompanying gestures that hardened, somewhen into a signal or call, somehow a meaning. The sounds were ghostings, heard over the hill around the hill in the forest across the stream behind the rocks above the cliffs within the caves, the gestures were bodies, the bodies were breathing, there were two directions, into the lungs, out from the lungs. There were swirls and whirlwinds and the world breathed and was given body and bodies. It was cool to hear a knowledge from one who was knowing, invisible, elsewhere. There were cries too from the woundings, there were disappearances of familiar voices from leaving and dying which returned in memories and dreams made real with them, the waking in the night, the weeping and ululations. The world was enormous and narrow and all around and the same for many comings and goings for weeks and months at a time, or just a vision around the boulder surface or from the sky when things moved there, as they always did. The world was always different than the world, and always new and old, and always the world. The murmuring of the world was everywhere and everywhen and when that became language and accountancy, everything moved away, quietly, until distance itself became unfathomable, unknown even in its familiarity. Sure to be sounds, sure to be. ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 347-383-8552 current text http://www.alansondheim.org/wj.txt ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets
Again , great. Incredibly idiosyncratic ( thee & thou, for example ) and none
the worse for that . I always enjoy reading things you write Max but there’s
something about the discipline of verse that injects a huge amount of
confidence and grace... it’s feels a bit like literary tight rope walking, in
the best possible sense...
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019, 5:53 pm, Max Herman via NetBehaviour
wrote:
#yiv6175070203 P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}
Take a pebble for instance, an item, One of the few and many that can be picked
up by hand.Some are like this.Some can also be instruments, sticks or stones,
alongside the immovable base-grounds.Hence thou hast compositions, counting,
forms, names, phrases, and such.Early folk creating grammar on the fly, far
from learning it or being taught it.What counts the quiet though, the
quietus?There can be no count without that, no seeing, not even any
hearing.Well the breathing counts it, says the brain.Imagine all paint and no
canvas!You lose track of your sons. Were they ever even yours, oh fleet of
foot?Wild turkeys cross the streets coolly around here,Up from the
Mississippi,And I thank them daily for it.More than one story-set or circle of
the world Calls life breath, the one and the allAn old-time bellows or mill
that moves particlesLike Da Vinci drewEach pebble a point and a pointer, if
marked,And of course a black square.
From: NetBehaviour on behalf of
Alan Sondheim
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 6:11 PM
To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
Subject: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets
Goddess of Storms and Alphabets
http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030727.jpg
http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030738.JPG
I'm not sure how language would begin, not sure how language would
be recorded as a gesture accompanied by a sound. Sure to be sounds
accompanying gestures that hardened, somewhen into a signal or
call, somehow a meaning. The sounds were ghostings, heard over the
hill around the hill in the forest across the stream behind the
rocks above the cliffs within the caves, the gestures were bodies,
the bodies were breathing, there were two directions, into the
lungs, out from the lungs. There were swirls and whirlwinds and the
world breathed and was given body and bodies. It was cool to hear a
knowledge from one who was knowing, invisible, elsewhere. There
were cries too from the woundings, there were disappearances of
familiar voices from leaving and dying which returned in memories
and dreams made real with them, the waking in the night, the
weeping and ululations. The world was enormous and narrow and all
around and the same for many comings and goings for weeks and
months at a time, or just a vision around the boulder surface or
from the sky when things moved there, as they always did. The world
was always different than the world, and always new and old, and
always the world. The murmuring of the world was everywhere and
everywhen and when that became language and accountancy, everything
moved away, quietly, until distance itself became unfathomable,
unknown even in its familiarity. Sure to be sounds, sure to be.
___
NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org
https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
___
NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org
https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
___
NetBehaviour mailing list
NetBehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org
https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
Re: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets
Take a pebble for instance, an item, One of the few and many that can be picked up by hand. Some are like this. Some can also be instruments, sticks or stones, alongside the immovable base-grounds. Hence thou hast compositions, counting, forms, names, phrases, and such. Early folk creating grammar on the fly, far from learning it or being taught it. What counts the quiet though, the quietus? There can be no count without that, no seeing, not even any hearing. Well the breathing counts it, says the brain. Imagine all paint and no canvas! You lose track of your sons. Were they ever even yours, oh fleet of foot? Wild turkeys cross the streets coolly around here, Up from the Mississippi, And I thank them daily for it. More than one story-set or circle of the world Calls life breath, the one and the all An old-time bellows or mill that moves particles Like Da Vinci drew Each pebble a point and a pointer, if marked, And of course a black square. From: NetBehaviour on behalf of Alan Sondheim Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 6:11 PM To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity Subject: [NetBehaviour] Goddess of Storms and Alphabets Goddess of Storms and Alphabets http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030727.jpg http://www.alansondheim.org/P1030738.JPG I'm not sure how language would begin, not sure how language would be recorded as a gesture accompanied by a sound. Sure to be sounds accompanying gestures that hardened, somewhen into a signal or call, somehow a meaning. The sounds were ghostings, heard over the hill around the hill in the forest across the stream behind the rocks above the cliffs within the caves, the gestures were bodies, the bodies were breathing, there were two directions, into the lungs, out from the lungs. There were swirls and whirlwinds and the world breathed and was given body and bodies. It was cool to hear a knowledge from one who was knowing, invisible, elsewhere. There were cries too from the woundings, there were disappearances of familiar voices from leaving and dying which returned in memories and dreams made real with them, the waking in the night, the weeping and ululations. The world was enormous and narrow and all around and the same for many comings and goings for weeks and months at a time, or just a vision around the boulder surface or from the sky when things moved there, as they always did. The world was always different than the world, and always new and old, and always the world. The murmuring of the world was everywhere and everywhen and when that became language and accountancy, everything moved away, quietly, until distance itself became unfathomable, unknown even in its familiarity. Sure to be sounds, sure to be. ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
