Re: [NetBehaviour] Is it just me (trad-posturing)?
hi Rob Thanks for the encouragement and advice. You're very right about this, I need to consider different ways of making money from my art, rather than the traditional ways which don't feel appropriate. Can you recommend any works I can look at, or specific artists I can look at? dave 2009/1/7 Rob Myers r...@robmyers.org: On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:11 PM, dave miller dave.miller...@gmail.com wrote: I showed her my networked media work - she thought the images were good, but the fact that endless variations can be created would confuse buyers, who want uniqueness. The whole network generated/ collaborative aspects - she wasn't interested really. I think there are ways of making money from this kind of art and activity. Treat it as performance and records of performance and apply the strategies that performance (and Land, and Conceptual) artists use for example. People always want my preparatory drawings... - Rob. ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour -- Portfolio: http://davemiller.org Blog: http://davemiller.org/art_blog ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
Re: [NetBehaviour] Is it just me (trad-posturing)?
Shepard Fairey http://pic2009.inauguralcollectibles.com/category/SHEP.html On Jan 8, 2009, at 2:33 AM, dave miller wrote: hi Rob Thanks for the encouragement and advice. You're very right about this, I need to consider different ways of making money from my art, rather than the traditional ways which don't feel appropriate. Can you recommend any works I can look at, or specific artists I can look at? dave 2009/1/7 Rob Myers r...@robmyers.org: On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:11 PM, dave miller dave.miller...@gmail.com wrote: I showed her my networked media work - she thought the images were good, but the fact that endless variations can be created would confuse buyers, who want uniqueness. The whole network generated/ collaborative aspects - she wasn't interested really. I think there are ways of making money from this kind of art and activity. Treat it as performance and records of performance and apply the strategies that performance (and Land, and Conceptual) artists use for example. People always want my preparatory drawings... - Rob. ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour -- Portfolio: http://davemiller.org Blog: http://davemiller.org/art_blog ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
Re: [NetBehaviour] Is it just me (trad-posturing)?
Hey, Lots of great stuff here I had to put my bit in. *Manifesto on Art / Fluxus Art Amusement by George Maciunas, 1965 -* *ART* *To justify artist's professional,parasitic and elite status in society, he must demonstrate artist's indispensability and exclusiveness, he must demonstrate the dependability of audience upon him, he must demonstrate that no one but the artist can do art.* *Therefore, art must appear to be complex, pretentious, profound, serious, intellectual, inspired, skillful, significant, theatrical, It must appear to be caluable as commodity so as to provide the artist with an income. To raise its value (artist's income and patrons profit), art is made to appear rare, limited in quantity and therefore obtainable and accessible only to the social elite and institutions.* *FLUXUS ART-AMUSEMENT * *To establish artist's nonprofessional status in society, he must demonstrate artist's dispensability and inclusiveness, he must demonstrate the selfsufficiency of the audience, he must demonstrate that anything can be art and anyone can do it. * *Therefore, art-amusement must be simple, amusing, upretentious, concerned with insignificances, require no skill or countless rehersals, have no commodity or institutional value. The value of art-amusement must be lowered by making it unlimited, massproduced, obtainable by all and eventually produced by all. Fluxus art-amusement is the rear-guard without any pretention or urge to participate in the competition of one-upmanship with the avant-garde. It strives for the monostructural and nontheatrical qualities of simple natural event, a game or a gag. It is the fusion of Spikes Jones Vaudeville, gag, children's games and Duchamp.* Art historically the odd the new and experimental found support in the big cities, major cultural centers, London, New York, for example maybe because there was a concentrated population, with enough intelectual diversity to support it. But I think today many of the ideas we recognise emerging from art history such as conceptualism have themselves become globalised. The architecture and institutions that shape so much of the art world are largely relics of a culture which required concentrations of capital to support its existence. Today we dont need them so much. We can exhibit our work online and distribute it ourselves. But we still feel like recognition in that institiutional sphere is a marker of success and a guarantor of the security we as artists miss in our precarious lives. Ultimately I think it comes down to a question of what world you situate your practice in. Is it in the big centers, the big galleries, is this where you feel comfortable, where you see your work? When I look at art history you have to wonder who writes it? who put that artist there? In reality I think most artists today are drawing from a fine art culture which saw its birth in the big cultural centers but has now become global. We still seem to look toward those centers even though those places might be completely alien to us. I live in Belfast at the moment while in college, but I grew up in a village in the west of ireland which I will return to when I finsih college, this is where I come from, it nearly dosent make any sense that I should go to london or New york, of course they are great places for a visit, but it is a city mind set too. When I first started to put my work online, I wanted to get it out there, but now I think there is a lot to be said for the relationships we form in our local sphere too, online its easy to find like minded people, there is a bit more work to do in local relationships. Can there be a happy medium. Can the internet support more diverse local cultural ecosystems? A Contemorary Folk Art? Maybe? Has anyone read Tom Shermans essay Vernacular Video ? - http://mail.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/2008-November/001010.html I really like this essay so I responded with some of my own reflections - - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/film-in-the-age-of-vernacular-video-2/2008/12/29 Also Has anyone read 'The Gift' by Lewis Hyde? I just finished it and recommend it to anyone interested in exploring what are for many artists problematic dynamics between art and the market economy. here is a link to his website http://www.lewishyde.com/progress.html There are also some interesting video and audio of lectures hes given http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/mediaberkman/category/people/lewis-hyde/ Ok have to stop ranting must go go go make videos :) Happy New Year Kev -- Kevin Flanagan Research Blog - http://www.kevflanagan.wordpress.com Video Blog - http://www.kevflanaganvideoartblog.wordpress.com Flickr - http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevflanagan ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
Re: [NetBehaviour] Is it just me (trad-posturing)?
i agree with marc. and more important than money is felling...
best emotions,
r
2009/1/7 Rob Myers r...@robmyers.org
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:11 PM, dave miller dave.miller...@gmail.com
wrote:
I showed her my networked media work - she thought
the images were good, but the fact that endless variations can be
created would confuse buyers, who want uniqueness. The whole network
generated/ collaborative aspects - she wasn't interested really.
I think there are ways of making money from this kind of art and
activity. Treat it as performance and records of performance and apply
the strategies that performance (and Land, and Conceptual) artists use
for example.
People always want my preparatory drawings...
- Rob.
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Re: [NetBehaviour] Is it just me (trad-posturing)?
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:11 PM, dave miller dave.miller...@gmail.com wrote: I showed her my networked media work - she thought the images were good, but the fact that endless variations can be created would confuse buyers, who want uniqueness. The whole network generated/ collaborative aspects - she wasn't interested really. I think there are ways of making money from this kind of art and activity. Treat it as performance and records of performance and apply the strategies that performance (and Land, and Conceptual) artists use for example. People always want my preparatory drawings... - Rob. ___ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
Re: [NetBehaviour] Is it just me (trad-posturing)?
well, you'll hate me, but I'll tell you: it's simply a ponzi
scheme; the only people who benefit are those that entice
endless new suckers to pay the game... I've been working for
over 35 years and I've yet to encounter even one person who
continually makes even a rudimentary living from their
career as an artist... this unconscionable artworld scam
only supports the upper institutional echelons and their
well-heeled cohorts with some dribble-down effect for the
myopic acolytes with minor schemes (who are now online by
the thousands)
the maddening thing is that these obscenely funded
institutions (that we're required to support with our taxes)
deliberately oppose individual and grassroot autonomous
efforts
/:b
We fill the craters left by the bombs
And once again we sing
And once again we sow
Because life never surrenders.
-- anonymous Vietnamese poem
Nothing can be said about the sea.
-- Mr Selvam, Akkrapattai, India 2004
{ brad brace }bbr...@eskimo.com ~finger for pgp
---bbs: brad brace sound ---
---http://69.64.229.114:8000 ---
.
The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Projectposted since 1994
+ + + serial ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/b/bbrace
+ + + eccentric ftp:// (your-site-here!)
+ + + continuous hotline://artlyin.ftr.va.com.au
+ + +hypermodern ftp://ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace
+ + +imageryhttp://kunst.noemata.net/12hr/
News: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.misc
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. 12hr email
subscriptions = http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/buy-into.html
. Other | Mirror: http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html
Projects | Reverse Solidus: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/
| http://bbrace.net
. Blog | http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/wordpress/
. IM | bbr...@unstable.nl
. IRC| #bbrace
. ICQ| 109352289
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I am not a victim
I am a messenger
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Re: [NetBehaviour] Is it just me (trad-posturing)?
we need to redefine where people thing art is.
galleries like museums, dead, places of reflection;
art is something which happens with life and animation... and wine !
On 6 Jan 2009, at 18:51, { brad brace } wrote:
well, you'll hate me, but I'll tell you: it's simply a ponzi
scheme; the only people who benefit are those that entice
endless new suckers to pay the game... I've been working for
over 35 years and I've yet to encounter even one person who
continually makes even a rudimentary living from their
career as an artist... this unconscionable artworld scam
only supports the upper institutional echelons and their
well-heeled cohorts with some dribble-down effect for the
myopic acolytes with minor schemes (who are now online by
the thousands)
the maddening thing is that these obscenely funded
institutions (that we're required to support with our taxes)
deliberately oppose individual and grassroot autonomous
efforts
/:b
We fill the craters left by the bombs
And once again we sing
And once again we sow
Because life never surrenders.
-- anonymous Vietnamese poem
Nothing can be said about the sea.
-- Mr Selvam, Akkrapattai, India 2004
{ brad brace }bbr...@eskimo.com ~finger for pgp
---bbs: brad brace sound ---
---http://69.64.229.114:8000 ---
.
The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Projectposted since 1994
+ + + serial ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/b/bbrace
+ + + eccentric ftp:// (your-site-here!)
+ + + continuous hotline://artlyin.ftr.va.com.au
+ + +hypermodern ftp://ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace
+ + +imageryhttp://kunst.noemata.net/12hr/
News: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.misc
alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.miscalt.12hr
. 12hr email
subscriptions = http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/buy-into.html
. Other | Mirror: http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html
Projects | Reverse Solidus: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/
| http://bbrace.net
. Blog | http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/wordpress/
. IM | bbr...@unstable.nl
. IRC | #bbrace
. ICQ| 109352289
| Registered Linux User #323978
~
I am not a victim
I am a messenger
/:b
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Re: [NetBehaviour] Is it just me (trad-posturing)?
thanks james and brad
It's great that you're talking about this.
A couple of years back I talked to a very experienced art dealer/
curator - basically she was appointed my mentor on the South London
Arts programme - a scheme to help emerging artists. I know she's only
one opinion, but she knows what she's talking about.
I was asking her if she thought I could get any of my recent pictures
into galleries, and if they'd sell. I was basically trying to find
markets for my work - trying to make some money!
I showed her my networked media work - she thought
the images were good, but the fact that endless variations can be
created would confuse buyers, who want uniqueness. The whole network
generated/ collaborative aspects - she wasn't interested really.
She jumped into life when she saw my small booklets, which are much
more traditional - straight stories - and she reckoned these would sell
- especially if made big.
I felt quite disappointed - like is this what fine art is really like?
There's so much more conceptually in the networked stuff, layers of
ideas, but that didn't get her interest. She wanted the traditional
stuff!
I was amazed about how superficial fine art seems - she talked of
pre-selling shows, to artificially create scarcity, to bump up the
price. Add a frame for £1500 to increase the price by £3000 etc...
This is product for city types and investments. This isn't what I feel
art is about.
It all left me feeling quite disillusioned. Having said that I'm still
trying to make art, I can't stop, but the gallery as a goal is out of
my mind now. And I'm still thinking of how to make money out of my art
...
dave
2009/1/6 benjamin benja...@cultura3.net:
we need to redefine where people thing art is.
galleries like museums, dead, places of reflection;
art is something which happens with life and animation... and wine !
On 6 Jan 2009, at 18:51, { brad brace } wrote:
well, you'll hate me, but I'll tell you: it's simply a ponzi
scheme; the only people who benefit are those that entice
endless new suckers to pay the game... I've been working for
over 35 years and I've yet to encounter even one person who
continually makes even a rudimentary living from their
career as an artist... this unconscionable artworld scam
only supports the upper institutional echelons and their
well-heeled cohorts with some dribble-down effect for the
myopic acolytes with minor schemes (who are now online by
the thousands)
the maddening thing is that these obscenely funded
institutions (that we're required to support with our taxes)
deliberately oppose individual and grassroot autonomous
efforts
/:b
We fill the craters left by the bombs
And once again we sing
And once again we sow
Because life never surrenders.
-- anonymous Vietnamese poem
Nothing can be said about the sea.
-- Mr Selvam, Akkrapattai, India 2004
{ brad brace }bbr...@eskimo.com ~finger for pgp
---bbs: brad brace sound ---
---http://69.64.229.114:8000 ---
.
The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Projectposted since 1994
+ + + serial ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/b/bbrace
+ + + eccentric ftp:// (your-site-here!)
+ + + continuous hotline://artlyin.ftr.va.com.au
+ + +hypermodern ftp://ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace
+ + +imageryhttp://kunst.noemata.net/12hr/
News: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.misc
alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.miscalt.12hr
. 12hr email
subscriptions = http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/buy-into.html
. Other | Mirror: http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html
Projects | Reverse Solidus: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/
| http://bbrace.net
. Blog | http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/wordpress/
. IM | bbr...@unstable.nl
. IRC | #bbrace
. ICQ| 109352289
| Registered Linux User #323978
~
I am not a victim
I am a messenger
/:b
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