Re: apropos of nothing

[Sascha D. Freudenheim]

As one of the (very?) few conservatives on this list—by which I mean 
conservative relative to the list as a whole—and someone who has been on the 
list for something like 20 years, I have a few observations:

— Overall, I am impressed with the degree to which the move away from active 
moderating did not negatively affect the overall quality. I say that not to 
take away from the work of the moderators, but just as an observation on the 
community as a whole.

— At the same time, two components have been an active and essential part of my 
experience with nettime: a filter on my email that files all messages 
automatically, and the delete button.

— The filter because it makes it easier to manage the flow, especially when 
someone exhibits troll-like behavior or is simply too passionate to let go.

— The delete button because it is crucial to any digital experience. I do not 
consider myself obligated to read every post, to feel inflamed by every 
trollish post. I consider it, rather, my right to delete them and move on.

So while I think putting Bard on moderated status is the right call, I find the 
idea that this list is a home to potential fascists to be ludicrous and, in and 
of itself, a fairly fascistic take on freedom of thought. How about just using 
your delete button once you realize someone is a troll who should be ignored?

Lastly: Bard’s remarks about Charlottesville were awful. However, we kid 
ourselves if we think that he is alone in thinking he can stand outside that 
fight. Putting him on mod status does not change the fact that many people—too 
many people—find something appealing in Trump’s statement that there were “good 
people” on both sides. Muting him only mutes our collective awareness of their 
existence, it does not change the fact that they are there.

Sascha

Sascha D. Freudenheim
sas...@sascha.com

> On Nov 6, 2018, at 10:36 AM, tbyfield  wrote:
> 
> I'd like to go back to lurking, but a few replies below. Mainly, this: Bard 
> occupied too much space, so I hope we de-occupy it with more forward- or 
> outward-looking things. Nettime does best when mods are seen and not heard.
> 
>> On 6 Nov 2018, at 15:22, Nina Temporär wrote:
>> 
>> A Nazi gets granted that status only after a long week and many hate mails 
>> with many crossed lines, but I was already
>> On moderated status….for what exactly?
>> 
>> For softly criticising Felix a few months ago, funny enough, on a related 
>> topic, when he totally out of the blue used the Defence of a women as a line 
>> of argumentation against someone else?
> 
> Nina, you aren't on moderated status. Several messages were delayed, as I 
> said, for some technical reason, mostly because of some difference between 
> the subscribed address and the sender. I didn't take notes, so I'm not sure 
> what the issue was in the case of your mail — but it wasn't delayed 
> deliberately in any way.
> 
>> On 6 Nov 2018, at 15:32, Menno Grootveld wrote:
>> 
>> Although I certainly do not share all of Alexander's notions and ideas, and 
>> although I do not discount the possibility that he actually is one of these 
>> 'trolls', I don't support banning him from nettime permanently. I have to 
>> admit that I am a bit shocked by the eagerness with which some people seem 
>> to be wanting to 'shut him up,' as I do not consider this a productive way 
>> of having a discussion. The problem remains of course that a lot of people 
>> feel offended by his posts and that the discussion I am referring to has 
>> gotten out of hand recently, so the best solution would probably be to put 
>> him temporarily on 'moderation watch'.
> 
> Menno, I set Bard to mod status rather than kicking him off the list. If we 
> call it temporary, we'd need to set up some kind of criteria for switching it 
> back. If Bard wants to initiate a private discussion about that, he can do so 
> of course, but I don't think it's the best focus for the list right now. If 
> he sends any messages, we'll review them at some point — but since his 
> destructive style thrives on speed, we'll do it on our own time.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ted
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Re: apropos of nothing

[tbyfield]

I'd like to go back to lurking, but a few replies below. Mainly, this: 
Bard occupied too much space, so I hope we de-occupy it with more 
forward- or outward-looking things. Nettime does best when mods are seen 
and not heard.


On 6 Nov 2018, at 15:22, Nina Temporär wrote:

A Nazi gets granted that status only after a long week and many hate 
mails with many crossed lines, but I was already

On moderated status….for what exactly?

For softly criticising Felix a few months ago, funny enough, on a 
related topic, when he totally out of the blue used the Defence of a 
women as a line of argumentation against someone else?


Nina, you aren't on moderated status. Several messages were delayed, as 
I said, for some technical reason, mostly because of some difference 
between the subscribed address and the sender. I didn't take notes, so 
I'm not sure what the issue was in the case of your mail — but it 
wasn't delayed deliberately in any way.


On 6 Nov 2018, at 15:32, Menno Grootveld wrote:

Although I certainly do not share all of Alexander's notions and 
ideas, and although I do not discount the possibility that he actually 
is one of these 'trolls', I don't support banning him from nettime 
permanently. I have to admit that I am a bit shocked by the eagerness 
with which some people seem to be wanting to 'shut him up,' as I do 
not consider this a productive way of having a discussion. The problem 
remains of course that a lot of people feel offended by his posts and 
that the discussion I am referring to has gotten out of hand recently, 
so the best solution would probably be to put him temporarily on 
'moderation watch'.


Menno, I set Bard to mod status rather than kicking him off the list. If 
we call it temporary, we'd need to set up some kind of criteria for 
switching it back. If Bard wants to initiate a private discussion about 
that, he can do so of course, but I don't think it's the best focus for 
the list right now. If he sends any messages, we'll review them at some 
point — but since his destructive style thrives on speed, we'll do it 
on our own time.


Cheers,
Ted
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Re: apropos of nothing

[Nina Temporär]

With all genuine due respect to Ted and Felix for the amount of work that comes 
with it -
And with appreciation for your reflections on what needs to be changed, Ted, 
that came in while I was writing this - 
How can you seriously all repeat your trust in the moderation poiicies after 
what happened?

AB’s mails kept coming, even after the super concise and easy-to-grasp comments 
of Alice and Ian
Had indicated in which direction AB was going -
While my criticism of AB’s behaviour was held back for several hours?

So now that we know that you actively put people on a „moderated status“ I need 
to ask:

A Nazi gets granted that status only after a long week and many hate mails with 
many crossed lines, but I was already 
On moderated status….for what exactly? 

For softly criticising Felix a few months ago, funny enough, on a related 
topic, when he totally out of the blue used the 
Defence of a women as a line of argumentation against someone else? 

(Cornelia Sollfrank had posted an online petition, Alexandre Carvalho had 
replied online petitions „do shitz“, but in no 
Way attacked Cornelia - and believe me, had he done so, I would have been there 
for her. I agreed with Felix on his general
Comments but called employing a defence of Cornelia to lash out Against 
Alexandre a bit of a „poor stunt“, pointing out that 
„Men mostly use this as an argument when trying to discredit other men whose 
opinions they don’t share or whose territories 
They wish to annex“. 
If you were serious with your concerns, Felix, that this list doesn’t encourage 
women enough to speak, why didn’t you answer me or engage in the AB case early 
enough?)

Or was it my following comment in the same mail that I seriously worried if all 
hope was lost on this list in relation to online 
Activism, and that it felt like everyone has succumbed to a pessimism that only 
engages in reactive analyses anymore and Professionalising one’s expertise for 
the education market?

Rendering this into a general question:

Isn’t maybe a fully unmoderated list, 
Or an algorithm doing the job 
(That probably would have grabbed AB by his extinction-endangered balls 
immediately), 
Better than a system
That is only as good as the gender/race literacy and sensitivity of its 
moderators, 
Respectively as the sensitivity of their egos?

(Yes, I am a big fan of "Auge/Maschine" by Harun Farocki, and its accidental, 
unintended message:
Humans appear as annoying, loud, clumsy creatures, while the machines softly, 
calmly and tenderly
Do their job, only what they are asked to do, and nothing on top of it. ;))

Best, N


> Am 06.11.2018 um 13:44 schrieb Jo M2M  <mailto:j...@xs4all.nl>>:
> 
> Yes, the fundamental question lurking in any collective is "who cleans the 
> toilet?".
> 
> --
> * please, don't other me *
> 
> Jo van der Spek M2M
> v. Ostadestraat 49
> 1072SN Amsterdam
> http://schipholbrand.net <http://schipholbrand.net/>dinsdag, 06 november 
> 2018, 00:19p.m. +01:00 van Andreas Broeckmann a...@mikro.in-berlin.de 
> <mailto:a...@mikro.in-berlin.de>:
> 
> friends, i'm an active lurker on this list since 1996; my answer to 
> angela's question ("What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should 
> give fascists a platform from which to recruit?") would be that 
> "nettime" probably doesn't have a "policy" on anything, other than the 
> openness to questions; i'm sure there are people here who can put this 
> in a more nuanced theoretical language, but i imagine the list and the 
> discourse it supports as "in flux" and as something that takes its shape 
> through the things that people write, and through the ways in which they 
> respond to each other. - in the given case, the point for me would be 
> not to ask what some (general) "policy" might be, but to state clearly 
> and concretely that i'm against allowing anything that smacks of fascist 
> trolling or recruitment. a statement like this constitutes the quality 
> of this list which has, as its "policy", only a certain, vague 
> collective spirit which requires critical voices like angela's to 
> express their opinion. therefore: i support ted's decision to moderate 
> some of the contributions since, given 22 years of trust-building, i 
> believe he is acting in the spirit of the list and the discourse it 
> serves to constitute.
> (not sure whether this is an answer to julia's question.)
> regards,
> -a
> 
> 
> Am 05.11.18 um 01:57 schrieb Julia Röder:
> > about that
> > 
> > > dear angela,
> > > relax dear.
> > > it is ok.
> > > noone is recruiting anyone here.
> > > chill.
> > > best,
> > > w
> > 
> > so, is that it? silence about this from the whole list except from angela?
> > do 

Re: apropos of nothing

[hiya me]

This.

Morlock, come back to us.

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 6:54 PM tbyfield  wrote:

> Angela, all —
>
> Felix Stalder and I are the two people who've consistently moderated the
> list for the last twenty years. We don't speak for each other, but for
> my part the simple and straightforward answer to your question is no:
> nettime will not give fascists a platform from which to recruit. If I
> see something that clearly crosses any of those lines — there are a
> few bundled up in there — I'll stop it first and then we can all
> debate whether that was the right thing to do and how to proceed.
>
> In general, Felix and I have avoided laying down any clearly defined
> policies at all. While the list isn't what it used to be, the fact that
> it's lasted this long suggests that's been a prudent approach. Times are
> changing, but I haven't seen anything on the list that seemed to justify
> changing that. If you or anyone else see something that seems to cross a
> clear line, please say so — on the list or privately, whichever you
> prefer.
>
> I assume your question was promoted in part by Bard. Personally, I think
> he's a troll. As I said a few days ago, whenever I see his mail my first
> reaction is "When's the new book coming out?" — and not because I have
> the slightest interests in his wanking. Felix took a more oblique
> approach in the same thread ("Complexity and nostalgia," 3 Nov). That's
> generally how we've tried to moderate: openly on the list rather than
> behind the scenes, and by nudging discussions rather than cutting people
> off. We did briefly discuss intervening more directly but decided not to
> — yet. But as to your more general question, I'd rather just flip the
> bit and moderate Bard on the grounds that he behaves like an asshole
> than concoct a formal definition of assholism and then apply that rule
> to him retroactively. Nettime has lots of failings, but Bard-like
> behavior isn't one of them.
>
> One useful parallel in this context is Morlock Elloi, who stopped
> contributing when someone threw a tantrum about his contributions to the
> list. I think nettime is a much poorer place for his absence, but
> whatever you or anyone else may think of his contributions, note well:
> when someone objected, he stopped. Bard, by contrast, fuels negativity
> and feeds off it — and the list is a much poorer place for his
> presence.
>
> Cheers,
> Ted
>
> On 4 Nov 2018, at 1:12, Angela Mitropoulos wrote:
>
> > It is a simple and straightforward question that I would like
> > answered. It
> > makes no inferences about whether recruitment is effective, or even
> > deliberate rather than aesthetic. But I'm grateful for the evidence
> > you've
> > furnished, dear, about the way in which women are told to calm down
> > and
> > shut up, no matter the tone they take, so that those who think women
> > and
> > black people are less than human and not entitled to take up space can
> > keep
> > ranting on at length about how everyone other than white guys are less
> > than
> > human. I mean, I'm grateful that you've illustrated the reason why I
> > asked
> > this question in the first place. That said, I have no interest in
> > debating
> > this further.
> >
> > I simply repeat my question, and would like it answered. Preferably in
> > the
> > negative. But if in the affirmative, then I would like to suggest that
> > Nettime be shuttered because any benefit it had for creating a better
> > world
> > has long past. The world doesn't need a longform version of Gab, or
> > Gab for
> > that matter.
> >
> > Angela
> >
> > On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 10:29, Willem van Weelden
> > 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> dear angela,
> >> relax dear.
> >> it is ok.
> >> noone is recruiting anyone here.
> >> chill.
> >> best,
> >> w
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos <
> >> angela.mitropou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a
> >> platform from which to recruit?
> >>>
> >>> Angela
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Re: apropos of nothing

[Alessandra Renzi]

I have always seen Nettime as a platform for productive conversations of 
different kinds and have welcomed even the unpleasant moments of friction and 
egotism that have been part of Nettime debates over the years. The stakes were 
different.

A couple of days ago, the University of Toronto’ Munk centre sponsored a debate 
between David Frum and Steve Bannon. Despite massive protests, the debate was 
rationalised with all sorts of claims about wanting to expose flawed ideas and 
other similar nonsense (Canada can easily forget to examine its own 
government-sponsored violence when shining the light on its bad bad neighbour). 
Meanwhile Bannon got yet another chance to normalize hate and legitimize his 
position as a thinker and orator at home and abroad. 

I have seen the moderators of this list step in other times before to filter 
unwanted content. I understand that shutting down conversations may be a bit of 
a conundrum for some but there is such a thing as anti-fa moderation, and it is 
necessary.

Please keep Nettime fascist-free,
Ale  

> On Nov 3, 2018, at 8:12 PM, Angela Mitropoulos  
> wrote:
> 
> It is a simple and straightforward question that I would like answered. It 
> makes no inferences about whether recruitment is effective, or even 
> deliberate rather than aesthetic. But I'm grateful for the evidence you've 
> furnished, dear, about the way in which women are told to calm down and shut 
> up, no matter the tone they take, so that those who think women and black 
> people are less than human and not entitled to take up space can keep ranting 
> on at length about how everyone other than white guys are less than human. I 
> mean, I'm grateful that you've illustrated the reason why I asked this 
> question in the first place. That said, I have no interest in debating this 
> further. 
> 
> I simply repeat my question, and would like it answered. Preferably in the 
> negative. But if in the affirmative, then I would like to suggest that 
> Nettime be shuttered because any benefit it had for creating a better world 
> has long past. The world doesn't need a longform version of Gab, or Gab for 
> that matter. 
> 
> Angela
> 
> On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 10:29, Willem van Weelden  > wrote:
> dear angela,
> relax dear.
> it is ok.
> noone is recruiting anyone here.
> chill.
> best,
> w
> 
> 
> > On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos  > > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a 
> > platform from which to recruit? 
> > 
> > Angela 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> > 
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Re: apropos of nothing

[Florian Cramer]

Alexander Bard is a typical example of a "Querfront" activist, and a member
of this right-wing party:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Coalition

-F

-- 
blog: *https://pod.thing.org/people/13a6057015b90136f896525400cd8561
*
bio:  http://floriancramer.nl


On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:30 AM Willem van Weelden 
wrote:

> dear angela,
> relax dear.
> it is ok.
> noone is recruiting anyone here.
> chill.
> best,
> w
>
>
> > On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos <
> angela.mitropou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a
> platform from which to recruit?
> >
> > Angela
> >
> >
> >
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Re: apropos of nothing

[Angela Mitropoulos]

It is a simple and straightforward question that I would like answered. It
makes no inferences about whether recruitment is effective, or even
deliberate rather than aesthetic. But I'm grateful for the evidence you've
furnished, dear, about the way in which women are told to calm down and
shut up, no matter the tone they take, so that those who think women and
black people are less than human and not entitled to take up space can keep
ranting on at length about how everyone other than white guys are less than
human. I mean, I'm grateful that you've illustrated the reason why I asked
this question in the first place. That said, I have no interest in debating
this further.

I simply repeat my question, and would like it answered. Preferably in the
negative. But if in the affirmative, then I would like to suggest that
Nettime be shuttered because any benefit it had for creating a better world
has long past. The world doesn't need a longform version of Gab, or Gab for
that matter.

Angela

On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 10:29, Willem van Weelden 
wrote:

> dear angela,
> relax dear.
> it is ok.
> noone is recruiting anyone here.
> chill.
> best,
> w
>
>
> > On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos <
> angela.mitropou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a
> platform from which to recruit?
> >
> > Angela
> >
> >
> >
> > #  distributed via : no commercial use without permission
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>
>
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Re: apropos of nothing

[Willem van Weelden]

dear angela,
relax dear.
it is ok.
noone is recruiting anyone here.
chill.
best,
w


> On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a platform 
> from which to recruit? 
> 
> Angela 
> 
> 
> 
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apropos of nothing

[Angela Mitropoulos]

What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a
platform from which to recruit?

Angela
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