[NSP] Re: malcom's final solution
Barry, There used to be a site run by Gerit Raith having plans for a cornemuse in F (alto kortholt) but I can't seem to track it down -- if you are interested in this windcap instrument I may be a ble to dig out the plans from an archive I have somewhere -- let me know if you would like me to search for them -- Ciao Dave S Barry Say wrote: I am writing a reply to Malcolm's message, but in the meantime, I have a related question which I hope that readers of this list can help with. The Northumbrian Smallpipes are unusual in that they have a very small bore compared to other instruments. Also, the tone holes are often the same size as the bore. Is anyone aware of any other wind instruments contemporary or historical which have a bore comparable with the smallpipes or tone holes about the size of the bore? Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.8/1985 - Release Date: 03/05/09 07:54:00
[NSP] Re: malcom's final solution
On 8 Mar 2009 at 12:23, Dave S wrote: Barry, There used to be a site run by Gerit Raith having plans for a cornemuse in F (alto kortholt) but I can't seem to track it down -- if you are interested in this windcap instrument I may be a ble to dig out the plans from an archive I have somewhere -- let me know if you would like me to search for them -- Ciao Dave S Thanks Dave. There is no need to go looking for plans. I was merely trying to establish that the NSP chanter is pretty unusual and as such will present its own problems to a maker. The other instrument I have come across with finger holes comparable to the bore is the Boehm system flute. Apparently Mr. Boehm designed his flute to have the diameter of the finger holes as close as possible to the size of the bore. The bore of the NSP chanter is generally in the range 5/32 to 3/16. At this size any imperfection in the drilling can affect the tuning quite considerably. In the bore of a wind instrument, there is a layer of virtually static air next to the wall due to viscous drag. In the NSP chanter, this boundary layer occupies a significant fraction of the bore cross-section. In a clarinet (for instance) the bore is much larger and the effect of the walls is much less. I think there are very good reasons why it is difficult to make perfectly reproducible chanters and the skill of a maker or fettler is to bring the best out of a chanter. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: malcom's final solution
I've been having a go at making a Border chanter in 'A'. I've measured and collected plans for chanters and had five different designs to study and try and work out how the thing ticks. I bored and turned 7 chanters in order to do some fingerhole itteration. My first attempt was based on my collective research. It didn't work so I moved some tone holes. Still didn't work. I looked at the reed and applied some backround knowledge of rectifying problems with GHB reed/chanter and suddenly things took a turn for the better. I changed my tone holes again. Once, twice, three times. Hey presto! A chanter that plays. Mind you, there is undercutting here and there, especially on certain notes like 'F' and 'E' that were very sensitive to reed design. What I'm trying to say is that I tried the 'measure every chanter route' and apart from an initial starting point, it got me absolutely nowhere. I'm sure my chanter will evolve still further but it is only doing so because I am learning so much about the reed, it's interactions with individual notes and all the little things that you can and can't do to get a result. Cheers Alec -Original Message- From: Philip Gruar [mailto:phi...@gruar.clara.net] Sent: 07 March 2009 14:10 To: Malcolm Sargeant Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: malcom's final solution Dear Malcolm, Yes of course - I read your post more carefully after sending mine, and see that you were in fact referring to an old chanter rather than something one of our current pipemakers had done. Sorry to have reacted over-hastily! I agree that some research and collating of measurements may be interesting and useful, though of course finger hole positioning is, and always has been with all wind instruments, a compromise between theoretical calculated positions and positions where the player's fingers can move most easily, and then undercut and adjusted for accurate tuning - making compromises and decisions to accomodate the balance between pure and tempered intevals. I do drill my fingerholes in the same very carefully measured places on all my chanters, though these have been refined and slightly changed over the years. However, the undercutting and fine tuning is always subtly different. I'm afraid I don't think chanter tuning can be reduced to an exact science, precisely the same on every instrument! Philip - Original Message - From: Malcolm Sargeant malcolm.sargea...@ntlworld.com To: Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: malcom's final solution Dear Philip thank you for your mail. the half inch tone hole sizes came from a Fred Picknell chanter about 100 year old and been in constant use. This chanter belongs to Tommy Breckons and is in use today. I have had it here at Scunthorpe to fettle and believe me it does play. The 1/2 is a guesstimate and of course not to be taken as scientifically as this survey could be. Thank you and please try to be positive, no one is going to come to any harm over this. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] plastic pipes
The best person to comment on this would be Richard Johnstone who has been using them in schools on loan from the Sage, Gateshead who had them made from a grant awarded some years ago where they had £25,000 to make 100 sets which obviously limited what could be done with £250 per set. What turned out were simple chanter three drone sets that one the face of it would have been suitable for beginners to get started on. However the children that Richard gave the sets to wanted to get on to 'real' pipes as quickly as possible. Difficult to know their reasons but may have been due to the feel of the pipes, the reeding, the tone or the appearance. I kow that the appearance was marred by a clumsy drone switch at the end of the drone instead of the traditional system which no doubt worked out as being an expensive feature. The finger holes were not smoothed off which was mentioned by the children as it caused squeaking and felt uncomfortable. Richard asked if I could supply 'real' sets made from wood to get over the problem which I did and they have four sets to help in the transition to the keyed sets he provides as thet get on to the extended range of more advanced tunes. There is nothing wrong with plastic as a material for pipes as I have made an NSP, an SSP and a Border pipe which are all being played in Canada with no trouble at all and in fact suiting the more variable 0Aclimate out there compared to UK. Looking at the sets they look as though they are made from ebony or blackwood and tonewise they are no different from wood and in fact better in some respects. It all depends on how the plastic sets are made with real leather bags and a good set of reeds. Colin R -Original Message- From: pipe...@tiscali.co.uk pipe...@tiscali.co.uk To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:23 Subject: [NSP] Re: malcom's final solution Colin, Some four to five years ago Mike Nelson devoted a great deal of time and effort to producing a set of pipes suitable for use in schools. The chanter was made from a plastic composite material so were parts of the drones. The idea was that the pipes should be produced as cheaply as could be consistent with sounding as close to normal pipes as possible. The pipes had to be made to stand the knocks and pressures put on them by the children. I remember Mike saying that there were several problems with actually getting the chanters etc. into production but these were overcome and a protoyype set was produced for evaluation. Anthony Robb became involved and I remember him playing a set at the Rothbury weekend course. I have not been involved closely with piping for 2or 3 years now so can someone update us on how the sets progressed and has the scheme been a sucess in schools? Prehps there is a20place for beginners sets, or part sets, to be made from composite materials as there must be those who are put off taking up the pipes because of the relativly high initial cost. Dicuss!!! Regards to all, Guy Tindale Original Message From: cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk Date: 07/03/2009 18:31 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subj: [NSP] Re: malcom#39;s final solution Excuse my ignorance on this but, many years ago (and I do mean MANY - possibly back in the 70's or 80's), there was a discussion regarding making plastic chanters for NSP as an aid to teaching in schools (thus swapping the pipes for the ever present recorder for music lessons etc). I notice quite a few Scottish smallpipes now have the plastic option but I haven't seen plastic NSPs. Plastic, of course, encompassing a number of man-made materials - as with clarinets etc. Obviously, production of plastic pipes would be quite useless if the chanters have to be tuned on an individual basis (and probably take more time - plastic not being as amiable to work with as wood). Is this one of the reasons why it never happened - that, even in plastic, each chanter would have to be tuned by hand? Just wondering. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net To: Malcolm Sargeant malcolm.sargea...@ntlworld.com Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 2:09 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: mal com's final solution Dear Malcolm, Yes of course - I read your post more carefully after sending mine, and see that you were in fact referring to an old chanter rather than something one of our current pipemakers had done. Sorry to have reacted over-hastily! I agree that some research and collating of measurements may be interesting and useful, though of course finger hole positioning is, and always has been with all wind instruments, a compromise between theoretical calculated positions and positions where the player's fingers can move most easily, and then undercut and adjusted for accurate tuning - making compromises and decisions to accomodate the balance between pure and tempered intevals. I do drill my fingerholes in the same
[NSP] Re: tuning tapered bore chanters
Yup, agreed! I have been using the same reamer in the same place for all the original chanter blanks. In the end it was a reed issue that changed the course of my itterations as there was too much length in the blades that was causing terrible flatness in the top hand. I seem to have it now (just about!) but I totally agree with your comments compared to smallpipe chanters, they are much easier to produce consistently. I am also discovering the frustration in what you say about the uncertainty in the conical bore system!! ;) Best Wishes Alec -Original Message- From: rosspi...@aol.com [mailto:rosspi...@aol.com] Sent: 08 March 2009 12:42 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: tuning tapered bore chanters Dear Alec, The secret is to stick to one reamer that is inserted to exactly the same position for each chanter you make and you may get consistent results as you jockey the hole positions around with subsequent chanters you make. Even then the quality of the wood will affect the tuning so you can never be absolutely certain you are going to get the result you want with each new chanter you make. And then there is the variable nature of the reeds you make. Much easier to make SSP chanters. Colin R - -Original Message- From: rosspi...@aol.com To: a...@lauriebeck.co.uk Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 12:41 Subject: tuning tapered bore chanters Dear Alec, The secret is to stick to one reamer that is inserted to exactly the same position for each chanter you make and you may get consistent results as you jockey the hole positions around with subsequent chanters you make. Even then the quality of the wood will affect the tuning so you can never be absolutely certain you are going to get the result you want with each new chanter you make. And then there is the variable nature of the reeds you make. Much easier to make SSP chanters. Colin R -Original Message- From: Alec a...@lauriebeck.co.uk To: n...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 12:08 Subject: [NSP] Re: malcom's final solution 0 I've been having a go at making a Border chanter in 'A'. I've measured and collected plans for chanters and had five different designs to study and try and work out how the thing ticks. I bored and turned 7 chanters in order to do some fingerhole itteration. My first attempt was based on my collective research. It didn't work so I moved some tone holes. Still didn't work. I looked at the reed and applied some backround knowledge of rectifying problems with GHB reed/chanter and suddenly things took a turn for the better. I changed my tone holes again. Once, twice, three times. Hey presto! A chanter that plays. Mind you, there is undercutting here and there, especially on certain notes like 'F' and 'E' that were very sensitive to reed design. What I'm trying to say is that I tried the 'measure every chanter route' and apart from an initial starting point, it got me absolutely nowhere. I'm sure my chanter will evolve still further but it is only doing so because I am learning so much about the reed, it's interactions with individual notes and all the little things that you can and can't do to get a result. Cheers Alec -Original Message- From: Philip Gruar [mailto:phi...@gruar.clara.net] Sent: 07 March 2009 14:10 To: Malcolm Sargeant Cc: n...@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: malcom's final solution Dear Malcolm, Yes of course - I read your post more carefully after sending mine, and see that you were in fact referring to an old chanter rather than something one of our current pipemakers had done. Sorry to have reacted over-hastily! I agree that some research and collating of measurements may be interesting and useful, though of course finger hole positioning is, and always has been with all wind instruments, a compromise between theoretical calculated positions and positions where the player's fingers can move most easily, and then undercut and adjusted for accurate tuning - making compromises and decisions to accomodate the balance between pure and tempered intevals. I do drill my fingerholes in the same very carefully measured places on all my chanters, though these have been refined and slightly changed over the years. However, the undercutting and fine tuning is always subtly different. I'm afraid I don't think chanter tuning can be reduced to an exact science, precisely the same on every instrument! Philip - Original Message - From: Malcolm Sargeant malcolm.sargea...@ntlworld.com To: Philip Gruar phi...@gruar.clara.net Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: malcom's final solu tion Dear Philip thank you for your mail. the half inch tone hole sizes came from a Fred Picknell chanter about 100 year old and been in constant use. This chanter belongs to Tommy Breckons and is in use today. I have had it here at Scunthorpe to
[NSP] first 30 tunes
The NPS has just published a small tune book inpsired by the Boulting brothers who found they couldn't join in at a session I was leading at the North American Pipers' Convention at Killington in 2007. They asked a number of pipers to contribute their collection of 30 tunes that they thought should be essential basic repertoire that everyone should know, to help themselves and other pipers from different airts and parts when they got together and could all join in. The book is now printed and available from the NPS. At the time they wanted a CD to accompany the book to help folk who found it difficult to pick iup a tune from the dots. Unfortunately we could not find any one to mastermind that part of the exercise and it has not been produced yet. If any one out there is willing to collect recordings of the tunes and is then able to produce a CD please contact Julia Say the Secretary of the NPS to arrange this. It has already attracted criticism from one of our pipers who is 'deeply disappointed' that the CD is not with the book as originally planned and who thinks that it will do real damage to what is essentially an oral tradition. He quotes the late Tom Anderson of Shetland who 'rightly' said 'Never try to learn a tune you don't already know'. This of course is a matter of debate,i.e. oral v learning from printed music. It is interesting that the same piper never found any course to complain that I had taken most of the music for the Cut Dry#1 LP from printed souces as there was no one alive who had those old tunes in their repertoire that they had learnt from a previous generation. This narrow view in my mind would prevent any advantage to be taken from Matt's recent publication of the 1777 Vicker's MS. I have my own views on presenting recordings of tunes with tune books as the style of playing from the various players would be imprinted on learners which could be a bad thing in some ways as suggesting that this was the 'right' way to play the tunes. Maybe a neutral instrument should be used to just demonstrate the way the tune may be played. Colin R AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: first 30 tunes
What a good idea. I must confess to liking CDs to hear what tunes sound like (being very poor at reading dots - fine on the actual notes but poor on phrasing, length etc - especially when new to the tune). I find that a Midi of a tune works well enough to give a rough idea what it sounds like if it's totally unknown - as many are to new players. Maybe someone with the right equipment could make them and post them to a website somewhere? True they would be rather clinical and probably not 100% accurate but would, at least, help a newcomer to learn (roughly) what the tune should sound like. I know I had some very interesting sounding tunes when I started which bore little resemblance to the actual tunes blush. On the plus side, the individual piper's style wouldn't be passed on to cause more grumbling :) I'm already trying this with a large collection of hurdy gurdy tunes (presently out of print) but just can't seem to make the time so do realise the work involved. Just a thought. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: rosspi...@aol.com To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 6:21 PM Subject: [NSP] first 30 tunes The NPS has just published a small tune book inpsired by the Boulting brothers who found they couldn't join in at a session I was leading at the North American Pipers' Convention at Killington in 2007. They asked a number of pipers to contribute their collection of 30 tunes that they thought should be essential basic repertoire that everyone should know, to help themselves and other pipers from different airts and parts when they got together and could all join in. The book is now printed and available from the NPS. At the time they wanted a CD to accompany the book to help folk who found it difficult to pick iup a tune from the dots. Unfortunately we could not find any one to mastermind that part of the exercise and it has not been produced yet. If any one out there is willing to collect recordings of the tunes and is then able to produce a CD please contact Julia Say the Secretary of the NPS to arrange this. It has already attracted criticism from one of our pipers who is 'deeply disappointed' that the CD is not with the book as originally planned and who thinks that it will do real damage to what is essentially an oral tradition. He quotes the late Tom Anderson of Shetland who 'rightly' said 'Never try to learn a tune you don't already know'. This of course is a matter of debate,i.e. oral v learning from printed music. It is interesting that the same piper never found any course to complain that I had taken most of the music for the Cut Dry#1 LP from printed souces as there was no one alive who had those old tunes in their repertoire that they had learnt from a previous generation. This narrow view in my mind would prevent any advantage to be taken from Matt's recent publication of the 1777 Vicker's MS. I have my own views on presenting recordings of tunes with tune books as the style of playing from the various players would be imprinted on learners which could be a bad thing in some ways as suggesting that this was the 'right' way to play the tunes. Maybe a neutral instrument should be used to just demonstrate the way the tune may be played. Colin R AOL Email goes Mobile! You can now read your AOL Emails whilst on the move. Sign up for a free AOL Email account with unlimited storage today. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
