[NSP] Was Mr. Fenwick right?
In the instruction book published by the Northumbrian Smallpipes Society in 1896, Mr Fenwick wrote, 'The note G is sounded by lifting the fourth finger off the bottom hole. To produce A, replace the fourth finger on the hole, and raise the third finger. The other notes are produced by closing and opening one hole at a time as given in the scale.' It seems to me that there are some deficiencies in this description. If we follow the instruction in the first sentence, we are left with a G sounding. This will go on until we decide to play another note. In order to play that other note we have to move two fingers in a coordinated fashion. I would suggest a better description as A note of G is sounded by lifting the fourth finger off the bottom hole for the length of time appropriate to the note and then replacing it. Other notes are played in the same fashion either by lifting a finger or thumb to open a tone-hole for the required duration and then replacing the finger or thumb or by depressing a key for the appropriate length of time and then releasing it. The major difference is that every note has a length as well as a pitch, the player is aware of the length of the note when he starts to play it, and the note isn't complete until it has been stopped. Mr Fenwick's description seems to me to owe a lot to the style of playing appropriate to open ended pipes such as GHB. Once the pipes are started, a stream of sound emanates from the chanter and the player is engaged in directing this to various pitches. It is a bit like operating a garden hose with no access to the tap. You can direct where the water goes but you cannot stop it. Conversely, with a closed end chanter NSP can produce distinct notes, and I think this is the way the instrument is best approached. Once we know how to play a G quaver, we can decide to play a G quaver without worrying about where the note will end. Our training will kick in and the fourth finger will descend at the appropriate time. we should imagine the whole of the note in our head before playing it. We can decide to follow that G with an A and to do that we lift the third finger at the appropriate time. and the fourth finger has already closed the G hole. Initially the gaps between the notes will be large, but with practise they *will* come down to an appropriate length. This description is my own but it owes much to detailed listening to recordings of Chris Ormston, to practice methods described by Inky-Adrian and discussions with other pipers who shall for now remain nameless. I feel that there are parallels with the methods used by Sports psychologists and coaches who encourage those they are teaching to break down the actions they require into well defined segments, and to have a clear vision of the outcome they wish to achieve before they start the action - we should 'think' the note before we play it. Does this make any sort of sense? Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Forbearance please
Then again, Mr Preston's Hornpipe - tune, variations, title and all would be lost to us if Marsden hadn't got (Playford?) to print it in 170-something! Swings and roundabouts, indeed. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 22 June 2011 12:06 To: Matt Seattle Cc: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Forbearance please --- On Wed, 22/6/11, Matt Seattle wrote: OK Anthony, I won't discuss it, but how good to hear Mr Preston's Hornpipe, it suits the NSP very well IMO. Hello Matt Many thanks for putting us right on the name of the 2nd tune. I'll tell the lasses and make sure we get it right in future. The wonders of the oral tradition! (OK, the name was sent to me via text but you know what I mean!) As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Forbearance please
And there was I thinking that it was an alternative name! I love that tune, especially since hearing the Eliza Carthy / Martin Green version on "Dinner" (which has a bunch of other 3/2 hornpipes, many from the "John of the Green, the Cheshire Way" book). I have been attempting it on the NSP, but with considerably less success. Cheers, Edric. > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of Anthony Robb > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 12:06 PM > To: Matt Seattle > Cc: Dartmouth NPS > Subject: [NSP] Re: Forbearance please > > >--- On Wed, 22/6/11, Matt Seattle >wrote: > > OK Anthony, I won't discuss it, but how good to hear Mr Preston's >Hornpipe, it suits the NSP very well IMO. >Hello Matt >Many thanks for putting us right on the name of the 2nd tune. >I'll tell the lasses and make sure we get it right in future. >The wonders of the oral tradition! (OK, the name was sent to me via >text but you know what I mean!) >As aye >Anthony > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
This is a fascinating thread.
I'm just going to throw in a few thoughts that have been going around my
head.
We are probably rather spoiled living in an age of recordings.
I'm thinking of the interpretation of the dots as opposed to actual
playing of them "as written".
I suppose this is one reason we have a conductor for an orchestra and
why different conductors have very different interpretations of any one
piece of music.
This, of course, is also true of the spoken word (hence the director
with the cry of "more passion").
Having something written down can only give, at best, basic instructions
(how loud is loud?) as we can see with some local drama groups. The
words are pronounced correctly but the performance varies depending on
the actor.
Whilst the dots and instructions of written music can tell us a lot,
what they should actually have sounded like is something we have lost
over the years (and music is just as susceptible to Chinese whispers as
speech). As I said at the start of this thread, I Beethoven were alive
today and could hear (:)), would he have recognised his compositions as
played and, for that matter, would Jamie Allan have recognised the pipe
tunes he played listening to them now.
Playing the dots is one thing, interpreting them another which is why I
believe that both methods (written and aural tradition) are still
important although who decides which sound is "right" is something only
the composer can do (unless you hear the composer playing and he/she
says "this is the way it's supposed to be played" which may, in some
cases, be preferable to writing the dots - depending on the "dot writing
ability" of the composer. Recordings help with that, of course.
As an aside from that, I'd love to have heard the two compositions I
once entered for the competitions ("too similar to existing tune" and
"needs more work - to jerky") being played by a "real" piper to see if
the dots I wrote down bore any similarity to what I intended (had to use
a music notation program to play them back in midi). One of them I have
never been able to play on the pipes themselves as it's faster than my
fingers).
Great topic of conversation. Keep 'em coming.
Colin Hill
On 22/06/2011 11:21, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote:
Generally people in literate societies have far worse memories
than in societies with oral/aural cultures.
Ask an ear player how many tunes he knows - it will be more
than I can remember where I kept the dots of
Swings and roundabouts.
C
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[NSP] Re: Forbearance please
--- On Wed, 22/6/11, Matt Seattle wrote: OK Anthony, I won't discuss it, but how good to hear Mr Preston's Hornpipe, it suits the NSP very well IMO. Hello Matt Many thanks for putting us right on the name of the 2nd tune. I'll tell the lasses and make sure we get it right in future. The wonders of the oral tradition! (OK, the name was sent to me via text but you know what I mean!) As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Forbearance please
On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 7:58 AM, Anthony Robb <[1]anth...@robbpipes.com> wrote: [1][2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxh4GyR7XhA Hoping that no further discussion will ensue! OK Anthony, I won't discuss it, but how good to hear Mr Preston's Hornpipe, it suits the NSP very well IMO. -- References 1. mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxh4GyR7XhA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
>Generally people in literate societies have far worse memories >than in societies with oral/aural cultures. > >Ask an ear player how many tunes he knows - it will be more >than I can remember where I kept the dots of Swings and roundabouts. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
The Iliad and Odyssey were probably composed sometime between the Mycenaean era and classical times, but the versions we know were almost certainly written down in the early classical era. There is evidence (eg lines that apparently don't scan properly), of language changes between composition and writing down. Generally people in literate societies have far worse memories than in societies with oral/aural cultures. Ask an ear player how many tunes he knows - it will be more than I can remember where I kept the dots of John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 22 June 2011 10:15 To: phi...@gruar.clara.net; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Thank you in turn, Philip. The ancient sagas are an interesting question. I don't know when or how the Iliad and the Odyssey came to be fixed in their present form, but I do know that the Kalevala was a compilation from a variety of sources made only in the 19th century. >A sobering thought for some of us who struggle to remember >tunes, and forget >people's names. Indeed! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
The Iliad is thought to have been written down in something like its current form a little earler than the Odyssey, during the second half or last quarter of the eighth century BC. Daphne On 22 Jun 2011, at 10:15, wrote: Thank you in turn, Philip. The ancient sagas are an interesting question. I don't know when or how the Iliad and the Odyssey came to be fixed in their present form, but I do know that the Kalevala was a compilation from a variety of sources made only in the 19th century. A sobering thought for some of us who struggle to remember tunes, and forget people's names. Indeed! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Daphne Briggs 34 Thorncliffe Road Oxford OX2 7BB Tel/Fax +44 (0)1865 310712
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Thank you in turn, Philip. The ancient sagas are an interesting question. I don't know when or how the Iliad and the Odyssey came to be fixed in their present form, but I do know that the Kalevala was a compilation from a variety of sources made only in the 19th century. >A sobering thought for some of us who struggle to remember >tunes, and forget >people's names. Indeed! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Thanks Chris - before I started to write my post, I wondered if I should leave it to you. You've added eloquently to what I was trying to say. Memorising a short but exquisite poem is one thing, memorising, say, War and Peace or the telephone directory is another. Both The Iliad and the Odyssey were almost certainly entirely orally/aurally composed, (varied obviously) and passed on before they were written down. A sobering thought for some of us who struggle to remember tunes, and forget people's names. And singing Wotan in Wagner's Ring is quite a feat of memory too. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Especially the "yes, of course". c >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood >Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:01 AM >To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) >Cc: NSPlist group >Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead > > >On 22 Jun 2011, at 09:39, wrote: > >> What would you say was the opposite of "legato". > >Ooooh, I'm not going there!! > >Saying that something is _not_ the opposite of another is only >one assertion. >Saying what _is_ an opposite requires a number of bold and >foolhardy propositions which will keep this thread going for >several years >> >>> I take 'detached fingering' to mean >>> only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time. >> >> In other words you don't have to overdo it to "prove" that >you're piping properly? > >Well, I agree though that's not quite what I meant. More a >matter of simple technique indicated by the physical aspects >of a stopped chanter, rather than any question of taste. > >> Would you make the odd exception for vibrato and the >occasional mordent, acciaccatura or "cut" (in the UP sense) >and such like? > >Oh yes, of course. > >Francis > >> > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
I think I'd go along with all of this. C >-Original Message- >From: Francis Wood [mailto:oatenp...@googlemail.com] >Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:01 AM >To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) >Cc: NSPlist group >Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead > > >On 22 Jun 2011, at 09:39, wrote: > >> What would you say was the opposite of "legato". > >Ooooh, I'm not going there!! > >Saying that something is _not_ the opposite of another is only >one assertion. >Saying what _is_ an opposite requires a number of bold and >foolhardy propositions which will keep this thread going for >several years >> >>> I take 'detached fingering' to mean >>> only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time. >> >> In other words you don't have to overdo it to "prove" that >you're piping properly? > >Well, I agree though that's not quite what I meant. More a >matter of simple technique indicated by the physical aspects >of a stopped chanter, rather than any question of taste. > >> Would you make the odd exception for vibrato and the >occasional mordent, acciaccatura or "cut" (in the UP sense) >and such like? > >Oh yes, of course. > >Francis > >> > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 22 Jun 2011, at 09:39, wrote: > What would you say was the opposite of "legato". Ooooh, I'm not going there!! Saying that something is _not_ the opposite of another is only one assertion. Saying what _is_ an opposite requires a number of bold and foolhardy propositions which will keep this thread going for several years > >> I take 'detached fingering' to mean >> only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time. > > In other words you don't have to overdo it to "prove" that you're piping > properly? Well, I agree though that's not quite what I meant. More a matter of simple technique indicated by the physical aspects of a stopped chanter, rather than any question of taste. > Would you make the odd exception for vibrato and the occasional mordent, > acciaccatura or "cut" (in the UP sense) and such like? Oh yes, of course. Francis > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 22 Jun 2011, at 09:31, wrote: > Word's spellchequer used to suggest "fellated" for "filleted". Further light has thus been thrown on the term 'codpiece' Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Quoting Barry they had to 'write' music which professional musicians could play either almost or completely at sight, and all the directions had to be on the page. The larger the group of musicians, the more more meticulous the directions had to be. To my way of thinking, in the classical mode (as I have described it) the technical terms are prescriptive and the Composer to the Elector of Wotsitburg can say to his orchestra, "When I say this bit is staccato I mean "Proper Poppa dopadumds". A good post, Barry, and basically you are right about later classical music - 19th century and later, when the composer had become the "Great Artist" and large professional orchestras have to play it right - and especially when economics mean minimal rehearsal time. But just to be pedantic, you are not quite right about the Elector of Wotsitburg era. Then, directions on the page were usually minimal - sometimes just the bare notes and slurs if you were lucky (at least just where they were really wanted), 'stacato' dots sometimes, and very ocasionally a direction like "forte". A very few composers were very exact e.g. with ornaments, and provided a page showing what their various signs meant. Most of the time musicians were playing new music, and if professionals they often had the composer directing them (so you are right about the "Proper Poppa dopadums" bit). Othersise, think more like Jazz - there were established conventions which included e.g. very variable ways of playing notated 'staccato', degrees of rhythmic flexibility etc. depending on context, dance types, national styles, and mood of the music. Apart from that, musicians had much more freedom to interpret and improvise. Soloists were very much expected to decorate the music, though of course orchestras did have to do it all the same, so among other factors it's the growth of bigger orchestras which led to more exact written directions. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
>'Detached' is not an equivalent, though. I'll play a slow air, >or everything else for that manner with 'detached fingering' >because that's how a stopped chanter works. And it's not the >opposite of 'legato'! I take 'detached fingering' to mean >only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time, >with either an infinitesimal or a more pronounced gap between >notes. Once it is more noticeable, then it's staccato. >'Meggy's Foot' to take an extreme example and 'Lads of >Alnwick' less so. 'Rothbury Hills' or whatever, hardly at all. With this interpretation, "detached" in the case of Rothbury Hills is getting very close to the "détaché" of the classical string player. What would you say was the opposite of "legato". >I take 'detached fingering' to mean >only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time. In other words you don't have to overdo it to "prove" that you're piping properly? Would you make the odd exception for vibrato and the occasional mordent, acciaccatura or "cut" (in the UP sense) and such like? C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Indeed the markings in classical music are prescriptive, but the further back one goes, the fewer markings one finds. The classical world has its own oral or aural tradition. The much-maligned (in some circles) reliance on the dots was simply because new repertoire was expected exceedingly often (hence Bach's "300 odd cantatas (sic)", rehearsal time was minimal, recording had not been invented until around the beginning of the 20th century so lots of fine music would have been lost if musicians had relied on memory, and possibly last but by no means least, because the scale and complexity of the music was often so much greater than with traditional music. (This is not a value judgment, but could you really imagine Beethoven (already deaf) teaching an orchestra, chorus and soloists the entire 9th symphony by ear, expecting them to perform it from memory, and then expecting people not to have forgotten it a few hundred years later? This would be a collective feat of memory far beyond what is required to memorise even the longest and most sophisticated of variation sets for the pipes.) I repeat: this is not a value judgment. I'm just explaining to the "the-buggers-couldn't-do-it-if-it-wasn't-written-down" camp that use of the dots in classical music has always been pure pragmatism. Memorising a short but exquisite poem is one thing, memorising, say, War and Peace or the telephone directory is another. Btw, conservatoires and music colleges always insist that students play their examination pieces by heart, and it is very unusual to see a concerto soloist with the dots in front of him/her, dammit, them (though I did once see Perlmann play the Elgar with the dots). >PS my spellchecker offered as alternatives to 'stratocaster': >'toastmaster' or castrated. Ah! the wonders of a digital age. > Love it. Word's spellchequer used to suggest "fellated" for "filleted". Is that dubious enough, Richard? Happy daze, C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
On 22 Jun 2011, Richard York wrote: > Thoughtful and considered artistic advice >of a sensitive nature would be most welcome, please. Richard, I think you're maybe asking in the wrong place ! Good luck with the tune. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
