[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file - William Darling
Yes, the William Darling is Grace Darling's father. It's a lovely little manuscript, currently on loan to the RNLI Museum at Bamburgh. William Dobson's manuscript also contains a list of tunes he could play, neatly divided up according to key signature; he obviously didn't feel the need to write down tunes he could play without dots! Best wishes Margaret -- Gibbons, John wrote : And the place! John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.d... [mailto:lute-...@cs.d...] On Behalf Of Paul Gretton Sent: 02 November 2009 17:10 To: n...@cs.d... Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file This is fascinating stuff. Thanks, Margaret. BTW, could the William Darling whom you mention possibly be Grace Darling's dad? The date you give could fit. Cheers, Paul Gretton -- This message was sent on behalf of marga...@wyngarth7.fsnet.co.uk at openSubscriber.com http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu/12990303.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
Dear Anthony, Thank you for making that clear. BTW, I would be very interested to hear more about life up country among the hill tribes. I hope they treated you with appropriate respect - perhaps as the people of Vanuatu do with Prince Philip? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip_Movement). Of course Philip did descend from the heavens in a helicopter, and I see you more as a 2CV kind of chap. (I suppose I'd better put in a smiley here.) :-) Cheers, Paul Gretton From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 02 November 2009 09:32 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file Dear Paul As Philip G. points out, some good points but hardly germane. I think I made it clear that I was speaking very particularly, in fact here is the quote from my original email refering to the region I was focussing on, the outlying districts of north Northumberland. I was talking about the people I lived amongst and were the traditional players of north Northumberland, i.e. the people at the heart of the discussion. None of the 20th century musical heavyweights from that region were dots readers and had all learnt by ear as had their predecessors. It was not a general statement; it was a particular one of importance to those discussing the music of Northumberland in terms of notated music and drawing conclusions from it. Cheers Anthony --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com wrote: From: Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 1 November, 2009, 6:20 PM Anthony Robb wrote: dot reading was an extremely rare skill at the time If you mean specifically among players of the NSP (or the fiddle, then perhaps - I wouldn't know. But if you mean in general, then that is a far too sweeping statement. Musical literacy was my no means uncommon, even among the working class. You are ignoring the influence of the Sunday school system, particularly among Nonconformists, and the self-improvement movement among the so-called better working class, with the miners being among the leaders. Large numbers of ordinary people could read music - witness the great Handel festivals and organisations like the Huddersfield Choral Society. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
A short word in praise of this mail header. Francis On 2 Nov 2009, at 14:45, Paul Gretton wrote: Dear Anthony, Thank you for making that clear. BTW, I would be very interested to hear more about life up country among the hill tribes. I hope they treated you with appropriate respect - perhaps as the people of Vanuatu do with Prince Philip? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip_Movement). Of course Philip did descend from the heavens in a helicopter, and I see you more as a 2CV kind of chap. (I suppose I'd better put in a smiley here.) :-) Cheers, Paul Gretton From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 02 November 2009 09:32 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file Dear Paul As Philip G. points out, some good points but hardly germane. I think I made it clear that I was speaking very particularly, in fact here is the quote from my original email refering to the region I was focussing on, the outlying districts of north Northumberland. I was talking about the people I lived amongst and were the traditional players of north Northumberland, i.e. the people at the heart of the discussion. None of the 20th century musical heavyweights from that region were dots readers and had all learnt by ear as had their predecessors. It was not a general statement; it was a particular one of importance to those discussing the music of Northumberland in terms of notated music and drawing conclusions from it. Cheers Anthony --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com wrote: From: Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 1 November, 2009, 6:20 PM Anthony Robb wrote: dot reading was an extremely rare skill at the time If you mean specifically among players of the NSP (or the fiddle, then perhaps - I wouldn't know. But if you mean in general, then that is a far too sweeping statement. Musical literacy was my no means uncommon, even among the working class. You are ignoring the influence of the Sunday school system, particularly among Nonconformists, and the self-improvement movement among the so-called better working class, with the miners being among the leaders. Large numbers of ordinary people could read music - witness the great Handel festivals and organisations like the Huddersfield Choral Society. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
I've found the recent comments about music in north Northumberland very interesting. I grew up among those who learned and played by ear (Joe Hutton, Will Atkinson, Jimmy Little, the Cheviot Ranters band in its various line-ups, and my dad, among many others) and owe them a great deal - including dozens of splendid tunes which still live in my head, if not on paper. When I was learning the pipes in 1974/75 with Joe at Alnwick Pipers Society, it was clear that he could also 'read the dots' when necessary. George Mitchell of the Cheviot Ranters was a very competent (and beautifully neat) amanuensis for other members of the band, and it's evident from some of the old sheets of manuscript I have that Willy Miller (fiddle player) could also jot down a tune when necessary. There are a few wonderful hand-written manuscripts from north Northumberland from the early and mid nineteenth century which indicate that some ordinary folk were competent music readers and writers. William Dobson of West Thirston (a joiner and fishing rod maker) filled his manuscript book with favourite tunes for the fiddle, including second parts for some melodies, beautifully written over a period of at least thirty years. The inclusion of about 20 hymn and metrical psalm tunes notated in up to four parts in a West Gallery style (tune often in the tenor line) indicates that he had some connection with a non-conformist chapel. William Darling of Bamburgh (c. 1810) also kept a manuscript book. His own attempts at composition are sometimes rudimentary - bar lines in the wrong place, note lengths not always accurate etc - but he clearly understood the basic principles of notation, as did John Readshaw and George Wallace, just over the border into Cumbria. So there's definitely evidence of people being able to read/notate music in north Northumberland, as well as plenty of examples of those who play (or played) by ear. Best wishes Margaret PS As Anthony pointed out in a different thread, the school song of the former Duchess's Grammar School in Alnwick was Chevy Chase, the first and last verses of which we sang at every prize giving. If the duchess took too long to process through the hall and reach the platform, we were instructed to sing the first verse again - nobody thought of teaching us the remaining 90+!! From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 02 November 2009 09:32 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file Dear Paul As Philip G. points out, some good points but hardly germane. I think I made it clear that I was speaking very particularly, in fact here is the quote from my original email refering to the region I was focussing on, the outlying districts of north Northumberland. I was talking about the people I lived amongst and were the traditional players of north Northumberland, i.e. the people at the heart of the discussion. None of the 20th century musical heavyweights from that region were dots readers and had all learnt by ear as had their predecessors. It was not a general statement; it was a particular one of importance to those discussing the music of Northumberland in terms of notated music and drawing conclusions from it. Cheers Anthony --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com wrote: From: Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 1 November, 2009, 6:20 PM Anthony Robb wrote: dot reading was an extremely rare skill at the time If you mean specifically among players of the NSP (or the fiddle, then perhaps - I wouldn't know. But if you mean in general, then that is a far too sweeping statement. Musical literacy was my no means uncommon, even among the working class. You are ignoring the influence of the Sunday school system, particularly among Nonconformists, and the self-improvement movement among the so-called better working class, with the miners being among the leaders. Large numbers of ordinary people could read music - witness the great Handel festivals and organisations like the Huddersfield Choral Society. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ NOD32 4565 (20091102) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
Perhaps we can do better than that? Can we construct a mail header that's as sophisticated an artwork as, say, Cut and Dry Dolly, or failing that, the Ring Cycle? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 02 November 2009 15:53 To: Paul Gretton Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file A short word in praise of this mail header. Francis On 2 Nov 2009, at 14:45, Paul Gretton wrote: Dear Anthony, Thank you for making that clear. BTW, I would be very interested to hear more about life up country among the hill tribes. I hope they treated you with appropriate respect - perhaps as the people of Vanuatu do with Prince Philip? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip_Movement). Of course Philip did descend from the heavens in a helicopter, and I see you more as a 2CV kind of chap. (I suppose I'd better put in a smiley here.) :-) Cheers, Paul Gretton From: Anthony Robb [mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 02 November 2009 09:32 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file Dear Paul As Philip G. points out, some good points but hardly germane. I think I made it clear that I was speaking very particularly, in fact here is the quote from my original email refering to the region I was focussing on, the outlying districts of north Northumberland. I was talking about the people I lived amongst and were the traditional players of north Northumberland, i.e. the people at the heart of the discussion. None of the 20th century musical heavyweights from that region were dots readers and had all learnt by ear as had their predecessors. It was not a general statement; it was a particular one of importance to those discussing the music of Northumberland in terms of notated music and drawing conclusions from it. Cheers Anthony --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com wrote: From: Paul Gretton i...@gretton-willems.com Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 1 November, 2009, 6:20 PM Anthony Robb wrote: dot reading was an extremely rare skill at the time If you mean specifically among players of the NSP (or the fiddle, then perhaps - I wouldn't know. But if you mean in general, then that is a far too sweeping statement. Musical literacy was my no means uncommon, even among the working class. You are ignoring the influence of the Sunday school system, particularly among Nonconformists, and the self-improvement movement among the so-called better working class, with the miners being among the leaders. Large numbers of ordinary people could read music - witness the great Handel festivals and organisations like the Huddersfield Choral Society. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file - William Darling
And the place! John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Gretton Sent: 02 November 2009 17:10 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file This is fascinating stuff. Thanks, Margaret. BTW, could the William Darling whom you mention possibly be Grace Darling's dad? The date you give could fit. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Margaret Watchorn Sent: 02 November 2009 17:02 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file I've found the recent comments about music in north Northumberland very interesting. I grew up among those who learned and played by ear (Joe Hutton, Will Atkinson, Jimmy Little, the Cheviot Ranters band in its various line-ups, and my dad, among many others) and owe them a great deal - including dozens of splendid tunes which still live in my head, if not on paper. When I was learning the pipes in 1974/75 with Joe at Alnwick Pipers Society, it was clear that he could also 'read the dots' when necessary. George Mitchell of the Cheviot Ranters was a very competent (and beautifully neat) amanuensis for other members of the band, and it's evident from some of the old sheets of manuscript I have that Willy Miller (fiddle player) could also jot down a tune when necessary. There are a few wonderful hand-written manuscripts from north Northumberland from the early and mid nineteenth century which indicate that some ordinary folk were competent music readers and writers. William Dobson of West Thirston (a joiner and fishing rod maker) filled his manuscript book with favourite tunes for the fiddle, including second parts for some melodies, beautifully written over a period of at least thirty years. The inclusion of about 20 hymn and metrical psalm tunes notated in up to four parts in a West Gallery style (tune often in the tenor line) indicates that he had some connection with a non-conformist chapel. William Darling of Bamburgh (c. 1810) also kept a manuscript book. His own attempts at composition are sometimes rudimentary - bar lines in the wrong place, note lengths not always accurate etc - but he clearly understood the basic principles of notation, as did John Readshaw and George Wallace, just over the border into Cumbria. So there's definitely evidence of people being able to read/notate music in north Northumberland, as well as plenty of examples of those who play (or played) by ear. Best wishes Margaret To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
Well said Margaret! There was also, in addition to the list you gave, the Emmerson manuscript from Whittingham. You might remember publishing 4 tunes from it in the first Alnwick Pipers Tune Book. Balanced against all this, of course, is the wonderful quote from Willie Taylor, I know nothing about music! I suspect there have been dozens if not hundreds down the ages who might have made similarly inaccurate claims! Just to make it quite clear - it seems to me even the dots-literate people were immersed heavily in the music and jotted tunes down to aid their own memory as much as anything else. Very good idea but whether such players learnt their material primarily from the dots rather than the musicians around them is an interesting question and the starting point of my original thread. The second point is that because most players weren't dots-literate it is difficult to draw concrete conclusons about their everyday repertoire. What a pity we took so long to develop decent sound recorders!! Cheers Anthony P.S Once the Duchess's School became comprehensive they dropped Chevy Chase the song and got me to play it on the pipes which I did until I left in 1993. I was a good boy in those days and eschewed bribes form the staff to pipe the Duchess in with Keep Your Feet Still Geordie Hinny. An opportunity lost I fear. --- On Mon, 2/11/09, Margaret Watchorn marga...@wyngarth7.fsnet.co.uk wrote: From: Margaret Watchorn marga...@wyngarth7.fsnet.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 2 November, 2009, 4:02 PM I've found the recent comments about music in north Northumberland very interesting. I grew up among those who learned and played by ear (Joe Hutton, Will Atkinson, Jimmy Little, the Cheviot Ranters band in its various line-ups, and my dad, among many others) and owe them a great deal - including dozens of splendid tunes which still live in my head, if not on paper. When I was learning the pipes in 1974/75 with Joe at Alnwick Pipers Society, it was clear that he could also 'read the dots' when necessary. George Mitchell of the Cheviot Ranters was a very competent (and beautifully neat) amanuensis for other members of the band, and it's evident from some of the old sheets of manuscript I have that Willy Miller (fiddle player) could also jot down a tune when necessary. There are a few wonderful hand-written manuscripts from north Northumberland from the early and mid nineteenth century which indicate that some ordinary folk were competent music readers and writers. William Dobson of West Thirston (a joiner and fishing rod maker) filled his manuscript book with favourite tunes for the fiddle, including second parts for some melodies, beautifully written over a period of at least thirty years. The inclusion of about 20 hymn and metrical psalm tunes notated in up to four parts in a West Gallery style (tune often in the tenor line) indicates that he had some connection with a non-conformist chapel. William Darling of Bamburgh (c. 1810) also kept a manuscript book. His own attempts at composition are sometimes rudimentary - bar lines in the wrong place, note lengths not always accurate etc - but he clearly understood the basic principles of notation, as did John Readshaw and George Wallace, just over the border into Cumbria. So there's definitely evidence of people being able to read/notate music in north Northumberland, as well as plenty of examples of those who play (or played) by ear. Best wishes Margaret PS As Anthony pointed out in a different thread, the school song of the former Duchess's Grammar School in Alnwick was Chevy Chase, the first and last verses of which we sang at every prize giving. If the duchess took too long to process through the hall and reach the platform, we were instructed to sing the first verse again - nobody thought of teaching us the remaining 90+!! From: Anthony Robb [mailto:[1]anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 02 November 2009 09:32 To: [2]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Paul Gretton Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file Dear Paul As Philip G. points out, some good points but hardly germane. I think I made it clear that I was speaking very particularly, in fact here is the quote from my original email refering to the region I was focussing on, the outlying districts of north Northumberland. I was talking about the people I lived amongst and were the traditional players of north Northumberland, i.e. the people at the heart of the discussion. None of the 20th century musical heavyweights from that region were dots readers and had all learnt by ear as had their predecessors. It was not a general statement
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
Anthony Robb wrote: dot reading was an extremely rare skill at the time If you mean specifically among players of the NSP (or the fiddle, then perhaps - I wouldn't know. But if you mean in general, then that is a far too sweeping statement. Musical literacy was my no means uncommon, even among the working class. You are ignoring the influence of the Sunday school system, particularly among Nonconformists, and the self-improvement movement among the so-called better working class, with the miners being among the leaders. Large numbers of ordinary people could read music - witness the great Handel festivals and organisations like the Huddersfield Choral Society. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file
It just occurred to me that I ought to have added: To get an idea of the culture that fostered musical literacy even among very ordinary people, just read D.H. Lawrence, specifically Sons and Lovers. Cheers, Paul Gretton -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Gretton Sent: 01 November 2009 19:20 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: [BULK] Re: [nsp] file Anthony Robb wrote: dot reading was an extremely rare skill at the time If you mean specifically among players of the NSP (or the fiddle, then perhaps - I wouldn't know. But if you mean in general, then that is a far too sweeping statement. Musical literacy was my no means uncommon, even among the working class. You are ignoring the influence of the Sunday school system, particularly among Nonconformists, and the self-improvement movement among the so-called better working class, with the miners being among the leaders. Large numbers of ordinary people could read music - witness the great Handel festivals and organisations like the Huddersfield Choral Society. Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
