[NSP] Re: Cymbal
And to complete the circle, there's a recording of both nsp's and gurdy at http://www.richardhaynesmusicservices.com/page6.htm I'm not saying it's state-of-the-art playing on either, but it's a very interesting and rather nice sound combination. It's only fair to read his comments first: it's track 8. And you can see the organistrum carving from Santiago in the VA museum's castings gallery. Assuming it hasn't gone the way of their instruments gallery and been closed yet. It's rather pleasing to add that the Hurdy Gurdy discussion group currently has a photo of a carving from York Minster showing both a gurdy and bagpipes. Not smallpipes, but pleasant that a certain amount of twinning is going on here :) Richard. On 02/11/2010 23:47, Colin wrote: All you need to know: http://www.hurdygurdy.farmcom.net/front.html I actually play a flatback gurdy (not by this maker) from Germany made by Helmut Seibert.. There's something about drones.. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 10:37 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organistrum for another name, a description, and a good picture. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Philip Gruar [phi...@gruar.clara.net] Sent: 02 November 2010 17:50 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Does this sound familiar to anyone else who knows more about this field of expertise? Yes. The symphony - more or less as you describe it, was a mediaeval version of the hurdy-gurdy. One of the best illustrations - of the big two-man version - is carvrd over the doorway of Santiago de Compostela cathedral. No time to write more just now - I'll post links and references later if anyone is interested, and unless someone else puts it all up here first! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
I've been away and only just seen this exchange. I'm also completely ignorant of this area. However. I've a sort of memory of having seen somewhere pictures of two different sorts of hurdygurdy next to each other or in the same article. One looked like the familiar (French?) version, with a bowl shaped body and a neck with the stops (is that the right term?) on it. The other was box shaped with a flat top with the stops sticking out of the top. It had a handle at the end, which turned in the same way, but the works were entirely inside. The stops were more like plungers, a bit like some old fashioned sort of cash reckoning machine. It may have been played by sitting it on as table rather than holding it as in the illustration. Anyway, I've a sort of additional recollection that it might have been called something like a 'symphony' or 'symphonium'. Does this sound familiar to anyone else who knows more about this field of expertise? It isn't entirely out of pipe territory. As the hurdygurdy has drone strings, it could be thought of as our strings equivalent. Dru On 31 Oct 2010, at 21:15, Richard York wrote: Fantastic again! For a piping group this is really providing me with great hurdy gurdy stuff! Thank you, Colin. As with John, I expect if I'd typed the right question phrased the right way into Google... but you did and I'm delighted. As you say, it's not 100% conclusive, but if that's the contemporary illustration Mayhew would presumably have objected if that was not what she played. And it certainly goes with the text describing her guide accompanying her. Best wishes and more thanks, Richard. On 31/10/2010 19:07, Colin wrote: It's generally accepted that she played the hurdy gurdy. http://dl.tufts.edu/view_image.jsp?pid=tufts:MS004.002.054.DO01.00011 Hurdy gurdies were given to some to be able to make a living rather than going to the workhouse etc. That illustration is from 1851 (taken from an earlier daguerreotype) so she was still alive but, of course, unlikely to be taken from life (and we do all know how accurate newspapers, journals and books are, don't we). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Hi Anthony, Thanks for this suggestion, which does indeed seem logical. The Hurdy gurdy net group were talking about early names for the gurdy recently, and this is where Old Sarah came up. Mayhew, who was an experienced journalist who interviewed hundreds of street people, so ought to know what he talked about, called it a hurdy gurdy. There's a Scots reference in the 16th C to Cymphan, thought to be from the older symphony and that's one explanation. She was fairly old when she talked to him, and from the early repertoire she had she was possibly taught by an Irish or Scots musician, so a misremembered Cymphan type word may have become Cymbal. But I certainly wouldn't go to the stake on that! The old lady also talked about having to keep the works covered so that pennies punters threw didn't get in and damage them. She spoke of having to learn tunes, and mastering them over a few weeks at first, so it wasn't a barrel organ type hurdy gurdy; and the dulcimer is lacking in interior works, so I'm fairly happy going with the gurdy as we now know it - there are pictures of people playing them on London streets. Thanks all for tolerating this excursion outside the Land Of Smallpipe. Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 16:38, Anthony Robb wrote: On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organistrum for another name, a description, and a good picture. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Philip Gruar [phi...@gruar.clara.net] Sent: 02 November 2010 17:50 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Does this sound familiar to anyone else who knows more about this field of expertise? Yes. The symphony - more or less as you describe it, was a mediaeval version of the hurdy-gurdy. One of the best illustrations - of the big two-man version - is carvrd over the doorway of Santiago de Compostela cathedral. No time to write more just now - I'll post links and references later if anyone is interested, and unless someone else puts it all up here first! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
All you need to know: http://www.hurdygurdy.farmcom.net/front.html I actually play a flatback gurdy (not by this maker) from Germany made by Helmut Seibert.. There's something about drones.. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Gibbons, John j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To: Dartmouth NPS nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 10:37 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organistrum for another name, a description, and a good picture. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Philip Gruar [phi...@gruar.clara.net] Sent: 02 November 2010 17:50 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Does this sound familiar to anyone else who knows more about this field of expertise? Yes. The symphony - more or less as you describe it, was a mediaeval version of the hurdy-gurdy. One of the best illustrations - of the big two-man version - is carvrd over the doorway of Santiago de Compostela cathedral. No time to write more just now - I'll post links and references later if anyone is interested, and unless someone else puts it all up here first! Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
It's generally accepted that she played the hurdy gurdy. http://dl.tufts.edu/view_image.jsp?pid=tufts:MS004.002.054.DO01.00011 Hurdy gurdies were given to some to be able to make a living rather than going to the workhouse etc. That illustration is from 1851 (taken from an earlier daguerreotype) so she was still alive but, of course, unlikely to be taken from life (and we do all know how accurate newspapers, journals and books are, don't we). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Hi Anthony, Thanks for this suggestion, which does indeed seem logical. The Hurdy gurdy net group were talking about early names for the gurdy recently, and this is where Old Sarah came up. Mayhew, who was an experienced journalist who interviewed hundreds of street people, so ought to know what he talked about, called it a hurdy gurdy. There's a Scots reference in the 16th C to Cymphan, thought to be from the older symphony and that's one explanation. She was fairly old when she talked to him, and from the early repertoire she had she was possibly taught by an Irish or Scots musician, so a misremembered Cymphan type word may have become Cymbal. But I certainly wouldn't go to the stake on that! The old lady also talked about having to keep the works covered so that pennies punters threw didn't get in and damage them. She spoke of having to learn tunes, and mastering them over a few weeks at first, so it wasn't a barrel organ type hurdy gurdy; and the dulcimer is lacking in interior works, so I'm fairly happy going with the gurdy as we now know it - there are pictures of people playing them on London streets. Thanks all for tolerating this excursion outside the Land Of Smallpipe. Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 16:38, Anthony Robb wrote: On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
Oops, of course a daguerreotype is a photograph so probably was accurate after all (red face). That's a hurdy gurdy she's holding regardless of what she called it. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Hi Anthony, Thanks for this suggestion, which does indeed seem logical. The Hurdy gurdy net group were talking about early names for the gurdy recently, and this is where Old Sarah came up. Mayhew, who was an experienced journalist who interviewed hundreds of street people, so ought to know what he talked about, called it a hurdy gurdy. There's a Scots reference in the 16th C to Cymphan, thought to be from the older symphony and that's one explanation. She was fairly old when she talked to him, and from the early repertoire she had she was possibly taught by an Irish or Scots musician, so a misremembered Cymphan type word may have become Cymbal. But I certainly wouldn't go to the stake on that! The old lady also talked about having to keep the works covered so that pennies punters threw didn't get in and damage them. She spoke of having to learn tunes, and mastering them over a few weeks at first, so it wasn't a barrel organ type hurdy gurdy; and the dulcimer is lacking in interior works, so I'm fairly happy going with the gurdy as we now know it - there are pictures of people playing them on London streets. Thanks all for tolerating this excursion outside the Land Of Smallpipe. Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 16:38, Anthony Robb wrote: On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
Fantastic again! For a piping group this is really providing me with great hurdy gurdy stuff! Thank you, Colin. As with John, I expect if I'd typed the right question phrased the right way into Google... but you did and I'm delighted. As you say, it's not 100% conclusive, but if that's the contemporary illustration Mayhew would presumably have objected if that was not what she played. And it certainly goes with the text describing her guide accompanying her. Best wishes and more thanks, Richard. On 31/10/2010 19:07, Colin wrote: It's generally accepted that she played the hurdy gurdy. http://dl.tufts.edu/view_image.jsp?pid=tufts:MS004.002.054.DO01.00011 Hurdy gurdies were given to some to be able to make a living rather than going to the workhouse etc. That illustration is from 1851 (taken from an earlier daguerreotype) so she was still alive but, of course, unlikely to be taken from life (and we do all know how accurate newspapers, journals and books are, don't we). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Hi Anthony, Thanks for this suggestion, which does indeed seem logical. The Hurdy gurdy net group were talking about early names for the gurdy recently, and this is where Old Sarah came up. Mayhew, who was an experienced journalist who interviewed hundreds of street people, so ought to know what he talked about, called it a hurdy gurdy. There's a Scots reference in the 16th C to Cymphan, thought to be from the older symphony and that's one explanation. She was fairly old when she talked to him, and from the early repertoire she had she was possibly taught by an Irish or Scots musician, so a misremembered Cymphan type word may have become Cymbal. But I certainly wouldn't go to the stake on that! The old lady also talked about having to keep the works covered so that pennies punters threw didn't get in and damage them. She spoke of having to learn tunes, and mastering them over a few weeks at first, so it wasn't a barrel organ type hurdy gurdy; and the dulcimer is lacking in interior works, so I'm fairly happy going with the gurdy as we now know it - there are pictures of people playing them on London streets. Thanks all for tolerating this excursion outside the Land Of Smallpipe. Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 16:38, Anthony Robb wrote: On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Cymbal
Fantastic again! For a piping group this is really providing me with great hurdy gurdy stuff! Thank you, Colin. As with John, I expect if I'd typed the right question phrased the right way into Google... but you did and I'm delighted. As you say, it's not 100% conclusive, but if that's the contemporary illustration Mayhew would presumably have objected if that was not what she played. And it certainly goes with the text describing her guide accompanying her. Best wishes and more thanks, Richard. On 31/10/2010 19:07, Colin wrote: It's generally accepted that she played the hurdy gurdy. http://dl.tufts.edu/view_image.jsp?pid=tufts:MS004.002.054.DO01.00011 Hurdy gurdies were given to some to be able to make a living rather than going to the workhouse etc. That illustration is from 1851 (taken from an earlier daguerreotype) so she was still alive but, of course, unlikely to be taken from life (and we do all know how accurate newspapers, journals and books are, don't we). Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Richard York rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk To: NSP group nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: [NSP] Re: Cymbal Hi Anthony, Thanks for this suggestion, which does indeed seem logical. The Hurdy gurdy net group were talking about early names for the gurdy recently, and this is where Old Sarah came up. Mayhew, who was an experienced journalist who interviewed hundreds of street people, so ought to know what he talked about, called it a hurdy gurdy. There's a Scots reference in the 16th C to Cymphan, thought to be from the older symphony and that's one explanation. She was fairly old when she talked to him, and from the early repertoire she had she was possibly taught by an Irish or Scots musician, so a misremembered Cymphan type word may have become Cymbal. But I certainly wouldn't go to the stake on that! The old lady also talked about having to keep the works covered so that pennies punters threw didn't get in and damage them. She spoke of having to learn tunes, and mastering them over a few weeks at first, so it wasn't a barrel organ type hurdy gurdy; and the dulcimer is lacking in interior works, so I'm fairly happy going with the gurdy as we now know it - there are pictures of people playing them on London streets. Thanks all for tolerating this excursion outside the Land Of Smallpipe. Best wishes, Richard. On 31/10/2010 16:38, Anthony Robb wrote: On 31 Oct Richard York wrote lots including: Henry Mayhew in the 1850's interviewed Old Sarah a blind Londonstreet hurdy gurdy player who was taught in the very early years of the 1800's to play what she called the cymbal. Richard Can't help with the tunes I'm afraid but it might be that the instrument she calls the cymbal is in fact the cimbalom. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom. Good luck with your quest. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbalom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
