[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Now this is really off-topic but might amuse some. If likely to disapprove, please delete now. I was once taking a sectional rehearsal for the viola in the student orchestra at the Luxembourg conservatoire (where they use the French system) when I found myself "translating" the rehearsal marks and saying things such as "let's go from three bars before Ré" instead of "... before D". My own viola teacher in a similar situation managed to say "après soixante-neuf revenez en première position". Strangely enough, I was the only one who sniggered. BTW, the language spoken in Luxembourg is Lëtzebuergesch, not French, but the good Burgers often find themselves obliged to change into French if there is a single "quarante-quatorze" or "quarante-dix-sept" in the room. (those are the départements that the "cent-onze" come from). Csirz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Yup, I can sympathise with all this (especially the bit about unintentionally rude or nonsensical - I was once warning a class of Germans learning English to avoid the word "backside" when they mean "back" or "verso" and managed to make precisely the same mistake myself in German while doing so - doh!!!). Mercifully, I'm no longer teaching but translating, which is marginally preferable. C > > I also found it really confusing when trying to teach traditional >music in this system to French speaking groups. >Given that tonic solfa allows a movable "doh" (Or should that >be "Doh!"? >) it's a very helpful system for singing with, as long as you indeed >don't forget which of the arbitrary names means which relative pitch. >But when you're familiar with that system, trying to then translate a >tune in G from the alphabetical name system into continental style >solfa, where the instinctive tonic "Doh" of G is now called >"Sol", etc., >so that players can sing it knowing which note they're going to use on >the instrument, left my brain even more confused than you probably are >after trying to read this. >(Meanwhile trying mentally to summon my inadequate French in order to >explain the next bit of teaching material without saying anything >unintentionally rude or nonsensical at the same time.) >:) >Richard. > >On 12/01/2011 09:14, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: >>> I think in France they have a "fixed do" system, where mib >>> =Meeflat = Eb >> This is correct. At the Conservatoires they teach people to >sing the note names, which I personally find a pointless >exercise for various reasons, including the fact that they >miss out the words "bémol, dièse and bécart" (flat, sharp, >nat) because there is no time to fit them in. There is also >the fact that the note-names are arbitrary (they are the >initial syllables of the lines of an ancient Latin hymn - Ut >quaent laxis) and hence don't follow any pre-existing sequence >(unlike A, B, C etc.). This is also why C is often referred to >in French as "Ut", which is strictly speaking bottom C in an >octave, the top C (or do) being, historically "haut" i.e. high. >> >> It's very impressive to hear French-trained musicians do >this at high speed tho. >> c >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
I also found it really confusing when trying to teach traditional music in this system to French speaking groups. Given that tonic solfa allows a movable "doh" (Or should that be "Doh!"? ) it's a very helpful system for singing with, as long as you indeed don't forget which of the arbitrary names means which relative pitch. But when you're familiar with that system, trying to then translate a tune in G from the alphabetical name system into continental style solfa, where the instinctive tonic "Doh" of G is now called "Sol", etc., so that players can sing it knowing which note they're going to use on the instrument, left my brain even more confused than you probably are after trying to read this. (Meanwhile trying mentally to summon my inadequate French in order to explain the next bit of teaching material without saying anything unintentionally rude or nonsensical at the same time.) :) Richard. On 12/01/2011 09:14, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: I think in France they have a "fixed do" system, where mib =Meeflat = Eb This is correct. At the Conservatoires they teach people to sing the note names, which I personally find a pointless exercise for various reasons, including the fact that they miss out the words "bémol, dièse and bécart" (flat, sharp, nat) because there is no time to fit them in. There is also the fact that the note-names are arbitrary (they are the initial syllables of the lines of an ancient Latin hymn - Ut quaent laxis) and hence don't follow any pre-existing sequence (unlike A, B, C etc.). This is also why C is often referred to in French as "Ut", which is strictly speaking bottom C in an octave, the top C (or do) being, historically "haut" i.e. high. It's very impressive to hear French-trained musicians do this at high speed tho. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
>I think in France they have a "fixed do" system, where mib >=Meeflat = Eb This is correct. At the Conservatoires they teach people to sing the note names, which I personally find a pointless exercise for various reasons, including the fact that they miss out the words "bémol, dièse and bécart" (flat, sharp, nat) because there is no time to fit them in. There is also the fact that the note-names are arbitrary (they are the initial syllables of the lines of an ancient Latin hymn - Ut quaent laxis) and hence don't follow any pre-existing sequence (unlike A, B, C etc.). This is also why C is often referred to in French as "Ut", which is strictly speaking bottom C in an octave, the top C (or do) being, historically "haut" i.e. high. It's very impressive to hear French-trained musicians do this at high speed tho. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
the modern "movable Do" system I think in France they have a "fixed do" system, where mib =Meeflat = Eb in modern coins and never changes! If you buy accordion music with French chords in the accompaniment it makes challenging reading! Alan -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]on Behalf Of Philip Gruar Sent: 11 January 2011 10:27 To: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook >I'm afraid I can't help here, but I have a related query. >Can anyone explain the significance, if any, of the shapes? c It was a system devised supposedly to help people with no musical training to read the tunes and sing at sight. The shapes represent sol-fa syllables, and the original four-shape system seems in some ways closer to the old European medieval/renaissance hexachord system than to the modern "movable Do" system (not much used in music education now, but brought to popular knowledge in the song from The Sound of Music) Read all about in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note But I guess you knew that Chris. If your question is why those particular shapes - I have no idea. When I led a group in singing some of those hymns - people who didn't read music much but were used to seeing normal notes, the shapes just confused them and complicated things, so I prepared versions in conventional notation, and they learned the parts by ear the same as the other carols we were doing. I think maybe more experienced music readers could ignore the shapes more easily, whereas to use the shapes as they were intended you have to have been trained in that system and nothing else. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
>If your question is why those >particular >shapes - I have no idea. No, it was why shapes at all? because if you remove them you are left with conventional notation. (I have perused a copy, but unfortunately don't own one). As you say: "people who didn't read music much but were used to seeing normal notes, the shapes just confused them and complicated things. I think maybe more experienced music readers could ignore the shapes more easily" This reminds me of the (very) old joke about television (It's amazing! if you close your eyes you could swear you were listening to the radio.) As they say in German: "warum einfach, wenn's auch kompliziert geht?" < whereas to use the shapes as they were intended you have to have been trained in that system and nothing else. Hmm Great music, shame about the notation! Thanks for the Wikilink. I will explore. C -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
I'm afraid I can't help here, but I have a related query. Can anyone explain the significance, if any, of the shapes? c It was a system devised supposedly to help people with no musical training to read the tunes and sing at sight. The shapes represent sol-fa syllables, and the original four-shape system seems in some ways closer to the old European medieval/renaissance hexachord system than to the modern "movable Do" system (not much used in music education now, but brought to popular knowledge in the song from The Sound of Music) Read all about in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note But I guess you knew that Chris. If your question is why those particular shapes - I have no idea. When I led a group in singing some of those hymns - people who didn't read music much but were used to seeing normal notes, the shapes just confused them and complicated things, so I prepared versions in conventional notation, and they learned the parts by ear the same as the other carols we were doing. I think maybe more experienced music readers could ignore the shapes more easily, whereas to use the shapes as they were intended you have to have been trained in that system and nothing else. Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
I'm afraid I can't help here, but I have a related query. Can anyone explain the significance, if any, of the shapes? c >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Philip Gruar >Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 2:37 PM >To: Dartmouth NPS >Subject: [NSP] Off-topic request for Hymnbook > >This is way off-topic for NSP's, but given the wide musical >interests of >many list members, I thought I'd give it a try - >I'm interested in getting a copy of The Sacred Harp hymnbook - >or possibly >other shapenote books. I know the 1860 edition of Sacred Harp >is available >online, in the Michegan State University digital collections, >and I also >know I could order a copy of the current edition direct from >the publishers >in the USA, but does anyone know if I can buy a copy here in the UK? > >Specifically, I'd like to find the music for Sacred Harp no.198 "Green >Street" to the words "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name" - >ideally this >week! >That tune is not in the online edition (or if it is, I can't >find it there) > >I'm sure there must be someone reading this list who knows >this repertoire >well (and for anyone who doesn't, check it out on YouTube - >it's amazing) - >if so, and if you can send me a scan of it, please contact me >off list and >I'd be very grateful. >Thanks, >Philip > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Thank you for your replies, Reid and Dru. I've known about Sacred Harp and shape note music for a long time, and heard some of the tunes on recordings - but without the sheer visceral passionate conviction of how it really should be done - though thanks to YouTube we can now hear (and see) it properly, and I'm quite bowled over by it. It's church music - but not as we know it (at least in England!) The reason for my request is that I'm currently sometimes leading a small church singing group and trying to enthuse them into some "Sacred Harp" style singing. We successfully did "Star in the East" in our carol service this Christmas, and I'm trying to collect more good ones. If you follow this link to a YouTube recording of a Sacred Harp singing, you'll see why I'm keen to get the music for Green Street! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUG-EPQqE2Q though of course I know Diadem well as the usual tune for "All Hail". Reid - I think it's the "primitive" Sacred Harp style harmony which is so powerful, as well as the tunes. Does the version in your Baptist hymnbook have that? I like the old English West Gallery hymns too - and also Gaelic Psalm singing, which I've heard in a Free Church on the Isle of Lewis. That can be like slow Sacred Harp tunes in its spine-tingling minor-key sound, but very much the opposite of the SH rhythmic drive. Philip - Original Message - From: "Dru Brooke-Taylor" To: "Dartmouth NPS" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 3:15 PM Subject: [NSP] Off-topic request for Hymnbook It's possible the tune might exist somewhere under a different name. Although what's probably the most usual tune to this hymn (Diadem) has a lot of repeats, the core is Common Metre. So whatever Green Street is, it may appear somewhere else as the tune to a different hymn with a different tune name. Having said that, a quick check in Oremus, the CCEL hymnary and nethymnal draws a blank for that title. Dru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Hi Phil Glad to hear there are others who appreciate sacred harp singing. I have a couple of newer song books but sadly they don't have All Hail in them. Having said that our Primitive Baptist (Regular Baptist to folks in the UK) hymnal has that hymn as hymn #1 and all of our hymns come written as shape notes. Is that sufficient? I have a friend across town who has Greens and may can get over there when our roads thaw.He is completely anti anything technology so he can't send the song via web. Reid On Jan 10, 2011, at 7:36 AM, "Philip Gruar" wrote: > This is way off-topic for NSP's, but given the wide musical interests of many > list members, I thought I'd give it a try - > I'm interested in getting a copy of The Sacred Harp hymnbook - or possibly > other shapenote books. I know the 1860 edition of Sacred Harp is available > online, in the Michegan State University digital collections, and I also know > I could order a copy of the current edition direct from the publishers in the > USA, but does anyone know if I can buy a copy here in the UK? > > Specifically, I'd like to find the music for Sacred Harp no.198 "Green > Street" to the words "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name" - ideally this week! > That tune is not in the online edition (or if it is, I can't find it there) > > I'm sure there must be someone reading this list who knows this repertoire > well (and for anyone who doesn't, check it out on YouTube - it's amazing) - > if so, and if you can send me a scan of it, please contact me off list and > I'd be very grateful. > Thanks, > Philip > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Hello Philip, I've passed your request on to a friend of mine, Tim Cummings, who runs a small publishing company specializing in the type of music you are looking for. Tim lives in Vermont, USA. You can check out his web site at www.beithepublishing.com Good luck in your search, Richard - Original Message - From: "Philip Gruar" To: "Dartmouth NPS" Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 8:36 AM Subject: [NSP] Off-topic request for Hymnbook This is way off-topic for NSP's, but given the wide musical interests of many list members, I thought I'd give it a try - I'm interested in getting a copy of The Sacred Harp hymnbook - or possibly other shapenote books. I know the 1860 edition of Sacred Harp is available online, in the Michegan State University digital collections, and I also know I could order a copy of the current edition direct from the publishers in the USA, but does anyone know if I can buy a copy here in the UK? Specifically, I'd like to find the music for Sacred Harp no.198 "Green Street" to the words "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name" - ideally this week! That tune is not in the online edition (or if it is, I can't find it there) I'm sure there must be someone reading this list who knows this repertoire well (and for anyone who doesn't, check it out on YouTube - it's amazing) - if so, and if you can send me a scan of it, please contact me off list and I'd be very grateful. Thanks, Philip To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
