date:20100304

On Fri, Mar 05, 2010 at 05:34:39AM +0100, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:
> Am 05.03.10 03:10, schrieb Michael Saunders:
> 
> I've looked at most of the fifty or so documents over which
> this virtual manual is supposed to be spread.  They are about
> as informative.  Most of these documents seem to be 5--12
> years old.
> 
> 
> *The LaTeX manual* is 16 years old.
> 
> http://www.pearsonhighered.com/educator/product/
> LaTeX-A-Document-Preparation-System/9780201529838.page
> 

But LaTeX didn't change since then, unlike ConTeXt (even MkII is under
documented).

Regards,
 Khaled


-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
 Free font developer
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-04 Thread Wolfgang Schuster


Am 05.03.10 03:10, schrieb Michael Saunders:

I've looked at most of the fifty or so documents over which
this virtual manual is supposed to be spread.  They are about
as informative.  Most of these documents seem to be 5--12
years old.
   

*The LaTeX manual* is 16 years old.

http://www.pearsonhighered.com/educator/product/LaTeX-A-Document-Preparation-System/9780201529838.page

\bye

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] columns and whitespace

2010-03-04 Thread Wolfgang Schuster


Am 04.03.10 23:56, schrieb James Fisher:
There was a thread about columns and whitespace ~ 2 weeks ago, but I 
wasn't a subscriber then.  I've just come across it independently 
myself.  I'm not sure what conclusion was come to.  From a few tests, 
I'd characterize the problem code in \startcolumns as: "if whitespace 
has been set to more than none, set whitespace to 'line'."

ConTeXt does this to keep the lines on the grid.

\setupwhitespace[medium]

\starttext

\startcolumns
\input knuth
\stopcolumns

\startcolumns[blank=medium]
\input knuth
\stopcolumns

\stoptext

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

Just to clarify, I pretty much agree with everything you say.

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:22 AM, James Fisher  wrote:

> "...the book about Hasselt". That actually made me laugh out loud.  What a
> loser I am.
>
> Ok, goodnight now. :)
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:10 AM, Michael Saunders wrote:
>
>> > You mean like the beginner's manual
>> >
>> > http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/ms-cb-en.pdf
>> >
>> > and the user manual
>> >
>> > http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf
>> >
>> ...
>> >
>> > amongst 46 others by Pragma
>>
>>
>> No, not like those.  I mean like a real manual.  I read the book
>> about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.
>> I've looked at most of the fifty or so documents over which
>> this virtual manual is supposed to be spread.  They are about
>> as informative.  Most of these documents seem to be 5--12
>> years old.  The wiki is even more patchy.  The idea that a
>> computer manual is something that exists implicitly in the
>> discussions of a mailing list is a new idea to me.
>>
>> You can't be serious about "mk.pdf" being a manual.  Even it
>> admits, "This document is not so much a users manual as a
>> history of the development."  Little after that point is intelligible.
>>
>> Compared with the clear, abundant documentation of the
>> LaTeX world, Context seems like a secret that a small club is
>> trying to keep.  It's not even clear from the manuals that
>> development is ongoing, much less that there is some advantage
>> in using it.
>>
>> So, will there ever be a manual to MK IV?  In how many years?
>>
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>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

"...the book about Hasselt". That actually made me laugh out loud.  What a
loser I am.

Ok, goodnight now. :)

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:10 AM, Michael Saunders  wrote:

> > You mean like the beginner's manual
> >
> > http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/ms-cb-en.pdf
> >
> > and the user manual
> >
> > http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf
> >
> ...
> >
> > amongst 46 others by Pragma
>
>
> No, not like those.  I mean like a real manual.  I read the book
> about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.
> I've looked at most of the fifty or so documents over which
> this virtual manual is supposed to be spread.  They are about
> as informative.  Most of these documents seem to be 5--12
> years old.  The wiki is even more patchy.  The idea that a
> computer manual is something that exists implicitly in the
> discussions of a mailing list is a new idea to me.
>
> You can't be serious about "mk.pdf" being a manual.  Even it
> admits, "This document is not so much a users manual as a
> history of the development."  Little after that point is intelligible.
>
> Compared with the clear, abundant documentation of the
> LaTeX world, Context seems like a secret that a small club is
> trying to keep.  It's not even clear from the manuals that
> development is ongoing, much less that there is some advantage
> in using it.
>
> So, will there ever be a manual to MK IV?  In how many years?
>
> ___
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> the Wiki!
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[NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-04 Thread Michael Saunders

> You mean like the beginner's manual
>
> http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/ms-cb-en.pdf
>
> and the user manual
>
> http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf
>
...
>
> amongst 46 others by Pragma


No, not like those.  I mean like a real manual.  I read the book
about Hasselt---a few examples without explanations.
I've looked at most of the fifty or so documents over which
this virtual manual is supposed to be spread.  They are about
as informative.  Most of these documents seem to be 5--12
years old.  The wiki is even more patchy.  The idea that a
computer manual is something that exists implicitly in the
discussions of a mailing list is a new idea to me.

You can't be serious about "mk.pdf" being a manual.  Even it
admits, "This document is not so much a users manual as a
history of the development."  Little after that point is intelligible.

Compared with the clear, abundant documentation of the
LaTeX world, Context seems like a secret that a small club is
trying to keep.  It's not even clear from the manuals that
development is ongoing, much less that there is some advantage
in using it.

So, will there ever be a manual to MK IV?  In how many years?
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

Perfecto.

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:
>
>  I'd like to go back to the very first post about problems with flush
>> right.
>> The \setbreakpoints command works to an extent, but I'm still experiencing
>> issues where, when a hyphenated string has been broken, the first half of
>> it
>> still sticks out.  I unfortunately can't show you the example, and it's
>> hard
>> to reproduce.  But can anyone answer: does the TeX line-breaking algorithm
>> retain the possibility of lines overrunning the defined boundary, if the
>> algorithm decides that the alternatives are more ugly?
>>
>
> Yes.
>
> Try \setuptolerance[tolerant] or \setuptolerance[verytolerant].
>
> Aditya
>
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right


On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:


I'd like to go back to the very first post about problems with flush right.
The \setbreakpoints command works to an extent, but I'm still experiencing
issues where, when a hyphenated string has been broken, the first half of it
still sticks out.  I unfortunately can't show you the example, and it's hard
to reproduce.  But can anyone answer: does the TeX line-breaking algorithm
retain the possibility of lines overrunning the defined boundary, if the
algorithm decides that the alternatives are more ugly?


Yes.

Try \setuptolerance[tolerant] or \setuptolerance[verytolerant].

Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

(Can I leave all of this for a bit?  I'll reply tomorrow, I think, but
first...)

I'd like to go back to the very first post about problems with flush right.
The \setbreakpoints command works to an extent, but I'm still experiencing
issues where, when a hyphenated string has been broken, the first half of it
still sticks out.  I unfortunately can't show you the example, and it's hard
to reproduce.  But can anyone answer: does the TeX line-breaking algorithm
retain the possibility of lines overrunning the defined boundary, if the
algorithm decides that the alternatives are more ugly?

James

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:47 PM, luigi scarso  wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:44 PM, James Fisher 
> wrote:
> >ConTeXt was not created to produce documentation for ConTeXt.
> This is not  the point.
> The point is that code documentation  of ConTeXt can be made with ConTeXt .
> see for example http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/modules/scmsvn
> We don't need Sphinx or similar, but
> of course Hans can decide to use it.
>
> >  HTML is typographically crude, but, and this
> > is important, *informationally*, HTML (and the web and friends) is far
> from
> > crude.
> true and your job is good.
>
> > Mmm, yes, you've made quite a lot of demands there on the curious
> programmer
> > having stumbled across ConTeXt ...
> None is saying that it's easy. And, really,  it's not easy.
>
> > I don't think so.  The "just study the code" approach shows an awfully
> > austere, reductionist philosophy.
> True but  I have not said this.
> TeX comes with TeXBook ("high-mid-low" level" manual )
> and Tex-The program- (the code)
> It's the same here, more or less.
>
> > Humans understand things from the top
> > down.  It's the computers that work from the bottom up.
> Humans understand things in bottom-up, top-down , try-and-error and
> probably other ways
> that  we can understand enough to formalize.
> Working with TeX is a mix of bottom-up, top-down try-and-error and fortune.
>
> >
> > I think you're thinking of 'forking' as something dangerous (yeah, the
> word
> > sounds painful), as something that will fragment the community, as
> something
> > that destroys the concept of 'authority'.  It's really not.  Where you
> get
> > forking you get merging at roughly the same rate.
> No, not dangerous. Actually useless . And yes, actually community and
> authority
> are important in this context.
> Why is so hard to understand ?
>
> > Why are they the only contributors?
> See Aditya.
> Apart from translations, Taco and Hans are the only persons that
> actually are able to produce a
> minimal, complete and exhaustive  documentation.
>
> --
> luigi
>
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation


On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:


Good news on both counts, then.  (Is there a reason that the source and
license of the documents aren't included in the docs themselves?)


All the docs refer to the readme file which states the license
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Read_Me

Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

Good news on both counts, then.  (Is there a reason that the source and
license of the documents aren't included in the docs themselves?)

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:
>
>  A bit of a diversion here, but two questions about the plethora of PDF
>> docs:
>>
>> * Where are the TeX sources of all these manuals kept?
>>
>
> svn://ctx.pragma-ade.nl/manuals (seems to be down at the moment)
>
> browsable at
>
> http://context.aanhet.net/svn/
>
> This information is also available on the wiki (
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Official_ConTeXt_Documentation)
>
>
>  * What are the licenses on all these various things?  In particular the
>> Pragma documents.  Would I be *allowed*, if I so wanted, to embark on a
>> collated version of all of this -- i.e., are derivative works allowed?
>>
>
> The program code (i.e. anything not under the /doc subtree) is distributed
> under the GNU GPL; the documentation is provided under Creative Commons
> Attribution NonCommercial ShareAlike license.
>
> So, derivative work is allowed, provided you do not sell your work.
>
> The new user manaul
> http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/contextman/scmsvn/?action=browse&path=%2Fcontext-reference%2F
> is a attempt to be a collected version of all the documents, and it is
> under GNU Free Documentation License, so if you copy from there, your result
> should have the same license.
>
>
> Aditya
>
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation


On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:


A bit of a diversion here, but two questions about the plethora of PDF docs:

* Where are the TeX sources of all these manuals kept?


svn://ctx.pragma-ade.nl/manuals (seems to be down at the moment)

browsable at

http://context.aanhet.net/svn/

This information is also available on the wiki 
(http://wiki.contextgarden.net/Official_ConTeXt_Documentation)



* What are the licenses on all these various things?  In particular the
Pragma documents.  Would I be *allowed*, if I so wanted, to embark on a
collated version of all of this -- i.e., are derivative works allowed?


The program code (i.e. anything not under the /doc subtree) is distributed 
under the GNU GPL; the documentation is provided under Creative Commons 
Attribution NonCommercial ShareAlike license.


So, derivative work is allowed, provided you do not sell your work.

The new user manaul 
http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/contextman/scmsvn/?action=browse&path=%2Fcontext-reference%2F
is a attempt to be a collected version of all the documents, and it is 
under GNU Free Documentation License, so if you copy from there, your 
result should have the same license.


Aditya
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[NTG-context] columns and whitespace

There was a thread about columns and whitespace ~ 2 weeks ago, but I wasn't
a subscriber then.  I've just come across it independently myself.  I'm not
sure what conclusion was come to.  From a few tests, I'd characterize the
problem code in \startcolumns as: "if whitespace has been set to more than
none, set whitespace to 'line'."

Try it by uncommenting various lines:


%\setupwhitespace[none]
%\setupwhitespace[small]

\starttext

\startcolumns[n=2]
%\setupwhitespace[small]
\input knuth
\stopcolumns

\stoptext


Do people agree with that characterization; has the bug been found; what's
being done about it?  I don't want to have to re-setup whitespace every time
I go to columns.



James
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[NTG-context] problems with \enabletrackers[resolvers.locating]

%%
%%# egrep trackers\.reg *|perl -ne
'if(s/.*trackers\.register\("([^"]+)"/$1/){print
"\\enabletrackers[$1]\n"}' -|sort|uniq
%%
\enabletrackers[afm.features]
\enabletrackers[afm.indexing]
\enabletrackers[afm.loading]
\enabletrackers[asciimath.mapping]
\enabletrackers[backend.detail]
\enabletrackers[backend.finalizers]
\enabletrackers[backend.objects]
\enabletrackers[backend.resources]
\enabletrackers[backend.xmp]
\enabletrackers[buffers.run]
\enabletrackers[buffers.visualize]
\enabletrackers[chemistry.molecules]
\enabletrackers[chemistry.structure]
\enabletrackers[chemistry.textstack]
\enabletrackers[cjk.analyzing]
\enabletrackers[cjk.injections]
\enabletrackers[cld.print]
\enabletrackers[colors.define]
\enabletrackers[context.define]
\enabletrackers[context.flush]
\enabletrackers[context.intercept]
\enabletrackers[figures.bases]
\enabletrackers[figures.conversion]
\enabletrackers[figures.locating]
\enabletrackers[figures.programs]
\enabletrackers[files.run]
\enabletrackers[fonts.all]
\enabletrackers[fonts.collecting]
\enabletrackers[fonts.combining]
\enabletrackers[fonts.defining]
\enabletrackers[fonts.expansion]
\enabletrackers[fonts.loading]
\enabletrackers[fonts.missing]
\enabletrackers[fonts.names]
\enabletrackers[fonts.protrusion]
\enabletrackers[fonts.scaling]
\enabletrackers[fonts.warnings]
\enabletrackers[lxml.access]
\enabletrackers[lxml.comments]
\enabletrackers[lxml.loading]
\enabletrackers[lxml.manipulations]
\enabletrackers[lxml.setups]
\enabletrackers[math.analyzing]
\enabletrackers[math.defining]
\enabletrackers[math.greek]
\enabletrackers[math.processing]
\enabletrackers[math.remapping]
\enabletrackers[math.timings]
\enabletrackers[math.virtual]
\enabletrackers[memory.checking]
\enabletrackers[metapost.graphics]
\enabletrackers[metapost.textexts]
\enabletrackers[modules.loading]
\enabletrackers[nodes.backend]
\enabletrackers[nodes.callbacks]
\enabletrackers[nodes.casing]
\enabletrackers[nodes.characters]
\enabletrackers[nodes.collect_vspacing]
\enabletrackers[nodes.destinations]
\enabletrackers[nodes.digits]
\enabletrackers[nodes.hspacing]
\enabletrackers[nodes.injections]
\enabletrackers[nodes.migrations]
\enabletrackers[nodes.mirroring]
\enabletrackers[nodes.page_vspacing]
\enabletrackers[nodes.references]
\enabletrackers[nodes.ruled]
\enabletrackers[nodes.shifted]
\enabletrackers[nodes.vbox_vspacing]
\enabletrackers[nodes.vsnapping]
\enabletrackers[nodes.vspacing]
\enabletrackers[otf.actions]
\enabletrackers[otf.alternatives]
\enabletrackers[otf.analyzing]
\enabletrackers[otf.applied]
\enabletrackers[otf.baseinit]
\enabletrackers[otf.bugs]
\enabletrackers[otf.contexts]
\enabletrackers[otf.cursive]
\enabletrackers[otf.details]
\enabletrackers[otf.directions]
\enabletrackers[otf.dynamics]
\enabletrackers[otf.features]
\enabletrackers[otf.injections]
\enabletrackers[otf.kerns]
\enabletrackers[otf.ligatures]
\enabletrackers[otf.loading]
\enabletrackers[otf.lookups]
\enabletrackers[otf.marks]
\enabletrackers[otf.math]
\enabletrackers[otf.multiples]
\enabletrackers[otf.normal_chain]
\enabletrackers[otf.positions]
\enabletrackers[otf.preparing]
\enabletrackers[otf.private]
\enabletrackers[otf.replacements]
\enabletrackers[*otf.sample]
\enabletrackers[otf.sequences]
\enabletrackers[otf.singles]
\enabletrackers[otf.skips]
\enabletrackers[otf.steps]
\enabletrackers[otf.unimapping]
\enabletrackers[otf.verbose_chain]
\enabletrackers[publications.bibtex]
\enabletrackers[publications.bibxml]
\enabletrackers[references.bookmarks]
\enabletrackers[references.destinations]
\enabletrackers[references.references]
\enabletrackers[resolvers.cache]
\enabletrackers[resolvers.containers]
\enabletrackers[resolvers.details]
\enabletrackers[resolvers.expansions]
%%% \enabletrackers[resolvers.locating] %%% PROBLEM
\enabletrackers[resolvers.prepfiles]
\enabletrackers[resolvers.schemes]
\enabletrackers[resolvers.storage]
\enabletrackers[scripts.analyzing]
\enabletrackers[scripts.injections]
\enabletrackers[structure.counters]
\enabletrackers[structure.detail]
\enabletrackers[structure.lists]
\enabletrackers[structure.notes]
\enabletrackers[structure.pages]
\enabletrackers[structure.processors]
\enabletrackers[structure.referencing]
\enabletrackers[structure.registers]
\enabletrackers[structure.sectioning]
\enabletrackers[system.callbacks]
\enabletrackers[system.directives]
\enabletrackers[system.experiments]
\enabletrackers[tasks.creation]
\enabletrackers[widgets.fields]
\enabletrackers[xml.entities]
\enabletrackers[xml.parse]
\enabletrackers[xml.path]
\enabletrackers[xml.profile]

\starttext\input knuth \stoptext

If uncomment
%%% \enabletrackers[resolvers.locating] %%% PROBLEM
then

! LuaTeX error ...ypes/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/data-res.lua:2024:
attempt to concatenate local 'v' (a boolean value)
stack traceback:
...ypes/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/data-res.lua:2024: in
function 'sequenced'
...ypes/tex/texmf-context/tex/context/base/data-res.lua:2035: in
function <...ypes/tex/tex

Re: [NTG-context] [OT] Lua sponsors

2010-03-04 Thread Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky


" We are pleased to announce that Adobe has joined our corporate

>  sponsorship program."
>  http://www.lua.org/sponsors.html
 

Oh, I already see Hans replacing his "javascript in pdf documents"
strategy with "fun with lua scripts in pdf documents" now:)

   

Wow. I first decided that Adobe became the sponsor of LuaTeX. )

Vyatcheslav
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

A bit of a diversion here, but two questions about the plethora of PDF docs:

* Where are the TeX sources of all these manuals kept?
* What are the licenses on all these various things?  In particular the
Pragma documents.  Would I be *allowed*, if I so wanted, to embark on a
collated version of all of this -- i.e., are derivative works allowed?

James

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:40 PM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Michael Saunders wrote:
>
>  The important thing is:  is there _ever_ going to be a manual?   I
>>
>
> You mean like the beginner's manual
>
> http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/ms-cb-en.pdf
>
> and the user manual
>
> http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf
>
>
>  want to try Context, but I've been putting it off for years because
>> it's not really practical without documentation.
>>
>
> Things that have changed in MKIV
> http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/mk.pdf
>
> Integrating metafun graphics
> http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/metafun-s.pdf
>
> On typography
> http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/style.pdf
>
> XML
> http://pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/xml-mkiv.pdf
>
> amongst 46 others by Pragma
>
> http://pragma-ade.com/show-man-1.htm
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/This_Way
>
> and other user written documents
>
> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/MyWay
>
> and then there is the wiki.
>
> I agree that some of these are outdated, some are not complete, but
> documentation does exist. What is missing in the documentation that
> prevented you from even starting using ConTeXt for *years*.
>
> Aditya
>
>
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation


On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Michael Saunders wrote:


The important thing is:  is there _ever_ going to be a manual?   I


You mean like the beginner's manual

http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/ms-cb-en.pdf

and the user manual

http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/cont-eni.pdf


want to try Context, but I've been putting it off for years because
it's not really practical without documentation.


Things that have changed in MKIV
http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/mk.pdf

Integrating metafun graphics
http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/metafun-s.pdf

On typography
http://www.pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/style.pdf

XML
http://pragma-ade.com/general/manuals/xml-mkiv.pdf

amongst 46 others by Pragma

http://pragma-ade.com/show-man-1.htm
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/This_Way

and other user written documents

http://wiki.contextgarden.net/MyWay

and then there is the wiki.

I agree that some of these are outdated, some are not complete, but 
documentation does exist. What is missing in the documentation that 
prevented you from even starting using ConTeXt for *years*.


Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:31 PM, Michael Saunders  wrote:
> The important thing is:  is there _ever_ going to be a manual?   I
> want to try Context, but I've been putting it off for years because
> it's not really practical without documentation.  There must be many
> others in the same situation.
For mkii there are cont-en and metafun plus some other articles.
It's a bit outdate, but still valid in general.

For mkiv : are you sure ?
If yes, mk.pdf , luatexref-t.pdf , the code.

For both : wiki and mailing list

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[NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-04 Thread Michael Saunders

The important thing is:  is there _ever_ going to be a manual?   I
want to try Context, but I've been putting it off for years because
it's not really practical without documentation.  There must be many
others in the same situation.
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Re: [NTG-context] [OT] Lua sponsors

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:30 PM, Mojca Miklavec
 wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 20:08, luigi scarso wrote:
>> " We are pleased to announce that Adobe has joined our corporate
>> sponsorship program."
>> http://www.lua.org/sponsors.html
>
> Oh, I already see Hans replacing his "javascript in pdf documents"
> strategy with "fun with lua scripts in pdf documents" now :)
hm, need to think about this..
we can put a lua interpreter in xpdf

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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:44 PM, James Fisher  wrote:
>ConTeXt was not created to produce documentation for ConTeXt.
This is not  the point.
The point is that code documentation  of ConTeXt can be made with ConTeXt .
see for example http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/modules/scmsvn
We don't need Sphinx or similar, but
of course Hans can decide to use it.

>  HTML is typographically crude, but, and this
> is important, *informationally*, HTML (and the web and friends) is far from
> crude.
true and your job is good.

> Mmm, yes, you've made quite a lot of demands there on the curious programmer
> having stumbled across ConTeXt ...
None is saying that it's easy. And, really,  it's not easy.

> I don't think so.  The "just study the code" approach shows an awfully
> austere, reductionist philosophy.
True but  I have not said this.
TeX comes with TeXBook ("high-mid-low" level" manual )
and Tex-The program- (the code)
It's the same here, more or less.

> Humans understand things from the top
> down.  It's the computers that work from the bottom up.
Humans understand things in bottom-up, top-down , try-and-error and
probably other ways
that  we can understand enough to formalize.
Working with TeX is a mix of bottom-up, top-down try-and-error and fortune.

>
> I think you're thinking of 'forking' as something dangerous (yeah, the word
> sounds painful), as something that will fragment the community, as something
> that destroys the concept of 'authority'.  It's really not.  Where you get
> forking you get merging at roughly the same rate.
No, not dangerous. Actually useless . And yes, actually community and authority
are important in this context.
Why is so hard to understand ?

> Why are they the only contributors?
See Aditya.
Apart from translations, Taco and Hans are the only persons that
actually are able to produce a
minimal, complete and exhaustive  documentation.

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Re: [NTG-context] [OT] Lua sponsors

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 20:08, luigi scarso wrote:
> " We are pleased to announce that Adobe has joined our corporate
> sponsorship program."
> http://www.lua.org/sponsors.html

Oh, I already see Hans replacing his "javascript in pdf documents"
strategy with "fun with lua scripts in pdf documents" now :)

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:

I'm not saying that a dcvs is useless for documentation or manuals.
But without contributors a dcvs can be practically useless,
and the only contributors for manuals actually are Taco for luatex and
Hans for Context mkiv.

Why are they the only contributors?

Because no one else (myself included) has actually contributed anything to
the documentation Compare

http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/contextman/scmsvn/?action=ScmStats

vs the number of "developers"

http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/contextman/

To be honest, other people have contributed, especially
in translations of the documentations, and documenting some exotic
features. But most beginner level and user documentation is written by
Hans and Taco.

In my opinion, it is hard to write coherent documentation in a distrbuted
manner (different writing styles, etc.). You are saying that it is just a
matter of having the right infrastructure. Judging by the way things have
evolved in the past, I am not so sure. If you really want to test how
online documentation will work, you can try to convert parts of the
beginners document to html. Compare

http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/contextman/scmsvn/?action=browse&path=%2Fcontext-beginners%2Fen%2Fma-cb-en-itemizations.tex&view=markup

with what you are writing using sphinx.

Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

Hi Luigi,

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:42 PM, luigi scarso  wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:25 PM, James Fisher 
> wrote:
> > lol; I thought this might come up.  I have a couple of replies to that:
> >
> > (1) First and most important: I'm not suggesting that we use TeX to
> document
> > things at all.  I'm suggesting that ConTeXt documentation should be
> > accessible to newcomers in the same format as 99% of all other projects:
> > good old HTML.
> Today HTML is still crude for a typographer but things can change with
> WOFF.
> You still can't show the potential of ConTeXt  with HTML, because main
> output is pdf .
>
>
I completely understand that typographically, HTML is crude -- if it wasn't,
I probably wouldn't be here at all; I'd write in HTML and print to PDF from
a browser. But I think that's misunderstanding what 'the potential of
ConTeXt' is.  ConTeXt was not created to produce documentation for ConTeXt.
People are not foolish enough to think, "if project X doesn't write its
documentation in X, there can't be much else it can do".  You don't write
Teach Yourself French in the French language.

(Also: WOFF will only help inasmuch as we can force quality typefaces on
people (no improvements in e.g. line-breaking algorithms, microtypography,
and what have you).  But that's off the issue.)


> >On the web (which you are), HTML is king.
> On a printing house( which I'm) , PDF is the king.
>
>
Ok, I said I'd put the HTML/PDF thing to rest, but I'll try and get my
thoughts across again:
I found ConTeXt via the web.  Almost every single other software project
I've ever found, I've found via the web.  I did not find ConTeXt via a
printing house (perhaps others do; I'm getting the impression I'm a bit of
an outlier in this community).  HTML is typographically crude, but, and this
is important, *informationally*, HTML (and the web and friends) is far from
crude.  The web is not a vast flat collection of PDFs.  It's the
unchallenged superglue of the web, which is where I feel that the community
should properly lie.  Now, it's quite possible that other people disagree
with me here, and that I'm factually wrong -- for example if the ConTeXt
community predominantly lies in the 'real-world', with gatherings, seminars,
with handed-out printed leaflets and manuals, with overhead slide
presentations -- in *that* case, then yes, PDF is king.


> >TeX and PDFs are
> > no replacement for the interconnected power of the web.  When I want a
> quick
> > piece of information in <10 seconds, I do not want to consult a
> > hand-collected folder of PDFs, or google for it and wait the age for a
> PDF
> > to load.
> I grep the code.
> It works even offline and in less than 1 second.
>
>
Yes. But the web works (albeit only while online, but who is ever offline?)
in less than a second too, and the web is far more than a 'World Wide
Grep'.  It's an unimaginably vast cross-referenced semantically aware net
with search engines of huge processing power.  Executing `grep
interpretation of grave character *' unfortunately does not give quite the
same result.


> > That kind of feeling, I guess, is the reason that the
> > contextgarden wiki exists.  But nor is Mediawiki is really not the most
> > appropriate way to document a project.  Wikis are messy and unstructured.
> > They don't lend themselves well to the hierarchical kind of structure
> > appropriate for representing a codebase.  So I'm suggesting that ConTeXt
> be
> > documented using a typical established documentation system.
> I disagree.
> minimals should be self-cointained.
> a documentation system not done in  Context can introduce a useless
> dependency.
>
> Anyway
> even if there is already
> http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/modules/scmsvn/
> (which is only usefula as testbed, not for documentation)
>
> or if we will have something like cseq one day
> (see
> http://www.tug.org/utilities/plain/cseq.html, possible made in
> automatic fashion from code base)
>
>
This looks lovely.


>
> or a wiki book
> (see
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX
> apropos of "Mediawiki is really not the most
> appropriate way to document a project" )
>
> it will be not enough --- a good starting point, of course.
>
>
> In the end, one needs to understand the language, his semantic and
> study the code.
> With TeXBook, a couple of manuals from pragma (cont-en, metafun) and
> the code you are ok
> (well also ~1000 pages of pdf specs. are not bad and also  some book
> about fonts ...).
>

Mmm, yes, you've made quite a lot of demands there on the curious programmer
having stumbled across ConTeXt ...


> Others are articles, and they are ok too.
> TeX is a macro language. There are almost ~1000 macros , and maybe
> ~500 macros in ConTeXt.
> Even if we are able to "documents" them in some manner, understanding
> them and their relations
> is a matter of study the code.
>
>
I don't think so.  The "just study the code" approach shows an awfully
austere, reductionist philosophy.  Humans understa

[NTG-context] [OT] Lua sponsors

" We are pleased to announce that Adobe has joined our corporate
sponsorship program."
http://www.lua.org/sponsors.html

-- 
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, luigi scarso wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:
>>>
>>> I personally prefer a massive PDF to a massive HTML with lots of images.
>>> With pdf you can also *search* the output. A perfect solution will be to
>>> generate both outputs from a single source, but that means a custom made
>>> solution.
>>
>> Doable with luatex.
>
> That defeats the whole point of what James is suggesting. Use an existing,
> feature rich system for source documentation rather than rolling out your
> own.
yes

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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:25 PM, James Fisher  wrote:
> lol; I thought this might come up.  I have a couple of replies to that:
>
> (1) First and most important: I'm not suggesting that we use TeX to document
> things at all.  I'm suggesting that ConTeXt documentation should be
> accessible to newcomers in the same format as 99% of all other projects:
> good old HTML.
Today HTML is still crude for a typographer but things can change with WOFF.
You still can't show the potential of ConTeXt  with HTML, because main
output is pdf .

>On the web (which you are), HTML is king.
On a printing house( which I'm) , PDF is the king.

>TeX and PDFs are
> no replacement for the interconnected power of the web.  When I want a quick
> piece of information in <10 seconds, I do not want to consult a
> hand-collected folder of PDFs, or google for it and wait the age for a PDF
> to load.
I grep the code.
It works even offline and in less than 1 second.

> That kind of feeling, I guess, is the reason that the
> contextgarden wiki exists.  But nor is Mediawiki is really not the most
> appropriate way to document a project.  Wikis are messy and unstructured.
> They don't lend themselves well to the hierarchical kind of structure
> appropriate for representing a codebase.  So I'm suggesting that ConTeXt be
> documented using a typical established documentation system.
I disagree.
minimals should be self-cointained.
a documentation system not done in  Context can introduce a useless dependency.

Anyway
even if there is already
http://foundry.supelec.fr/gf/project/modules/scmsvn/
(which is only usefula as testbed, not for documentation)

or if we will have something like cseq one day
(see
http://www.tug.org/utilities/plain/cseq.html, possible made in
automatic fashion from code base)


or a wiki book
(see
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX
apropos of "Mediawiki is really not the most
appropriate way to document a project" )

it will be not enough --- a good starting point, of course.


In the end, one needs to understand the language, his semantic and
study the code.
With TeXBook, a couple of manuals from pragma (cont-en, metafun) and
the code you are ok
(well also ~1000 pages of pdf specs. are not bad and also  some book
about fonts ...).
Others are articles, and they are ok too.
TeX is a macro language. There are almost ~1000 macros , and maybe
~500 macros in ConTeXt.
Even if we are able to "documents" them in some manner, understanding
them and their relations
is a matter of study the code.


>> About model of development: one developer is not so strange afterall .
>
> I'm not sure what your point is here.  That user contribution leads to
> 'featuritis'?  I totally understand that being 'frozen' is not a bad thing;
> it effectively means 'having reached a state of perfection for the defined
> task' -- I don't think this has a connection with having one developer.
> More developers == faster rate of approach to the limit of perfection.

No, not necessarily and not in this situation.
For TeX frozen  means no new features, only  bugfixes;
it means that the language is maintained and backward compatibility is
very important.
(about 80% of scientific articles are in TeX, so backward
compatibility is really important) .
It doesn't mean that the language is perfect.
To me frozen simply says that "it's time to explore the semantic of
the language rather than
add new  features"


>
>>
>> This model doesn't imply that you cannot contribute to the code base
>> but only that all contributions need to be  validate (and possible
>> rejected) and integrate by developer,.
>> You can also contribute with third part modules, but they are not in
>> base code and in case of conflicts code base wins.
>>
>
> Sure thing -- revision control doesn't hinder that at all.  If Hans doesn't
> want to merge someone else's changes to his (authoritative) copy of the
> repo, then he doesn't have to.  DVCS != chaos.
One developer assure that there is exactly one version e no forks
(friendly or not).
This is also ok because there is no need for forks (afterall none are
thinking to fork LaTeX2e):
> If Hans doesn't
> want to merge someone else's changes to his (authoritative) copy of the
> repo, then
the changes are rejected from the code base.

I'm not saying that a dcvs is useless for documentation or manuals.
But without contributors a dcvs can be practically useless,
and the only contributors for manuals actually are Taco for luatex and
Hans for Context mkiv.




-- 
luigi
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 03:42:11PM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:58, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure that I understand the
> > problem with ` (GRAVE ACCENT) that cannot be solved with a macro or by a
> > setting that disactivates the production of ‘ (LEFT SINGLE QUOTE MARK).
> 
> Try to process the following with XeTeX (I would be grateful if anyone
> knew how to solve that particular problem; also note that some
> hyphenation patterns don't work when ' is replaced by proper quotation
> mark):
> 
> \font\a="[lmroman10-regular]"
> \font\b="[lmroman10-regular]:mapping=tex-text"
> \starttext
> \a ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}\par
> \b ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}
> \stoptext

\def\textgrave{\char"0300 }
\font\a="[lmroman10-regular]"
\font\b="[lmroman10-regular]:mapping=tex-text"
\starttext
\a ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}\par
\b ``abc'' {\buildtextaccent\textgrave a}
\stoptext


Regards,
 Khaled

-- 
 Khaled Hosny
 Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 10:10:07AM +0100, Hans Hagen wrote:
> (actually one of my reasons for never using `` '' is that it looks
> quite ugly in the source as the second pair is not tilted and i hate
> ugly looking sources)

Since I'm using Inconsolata while reading this email, I had hard time
understanding why it looks OK here ;)

(I know it is an old thread, but I just started reading it now)

Regards,
 Khaled

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 Free font developer
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Re: [NTG-context] Differences in smart quotes MKII -> MKIV

Apologies, that must have slipped through my shoddy search.

Upon consideration I prefer the \quote and \quotation method.  Trusty old
semantic markup. :)

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Mojca Miklavec <
mojca.miklavec.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 18:58, James Fisher wrote:
> >
> > ``Yes, but --- ''
> >
> > In both cases, MKIV treats the opening grave character (is that the name?
> > backtick?) literally rather than as an opening smart quote.
>
> That's on purpose (there are some threads on the mailing list that
> explain it). You may modify the behaviour if you want (without asking
> how to do it), but it's best to use the proper quotes or
> \quotation{...}.
>
> Mojca
>
> See:
> [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.
> http://archive.contextgarden.net/message/20100118.123457.5dc7162a.en.html
>
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Re: [NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 08:31:22PM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> - The deciding moment when some of these ugly tricks have been thrown
> away was when we realized that if you do add those tricks, there is no
> way to print the grave accent. (Grave accent will be automatically
> converted to the same "comma" that you get in quotation marks.) In
> good old TeX the grave accent (`) and the character that you get when
> you type ` are at two different slots. In Unicode-encoded fonts that's
> not doable. This means that if one wants to enable the `` trick then
> there's no way to allow composite characters with grave accent or the
> character ` in typewriter font. In most cases that is not a problem
> since Unicode fonts usually support a wide range of characters, but I
> already had to use a character not present in Unicode. And that was
> not doable until the hack has been removed.

Now, I feel there is some thing wrong here, (`) is not an accent
(despite it misleading Unicode name), but rather a spacing character, so
typing n` to get ǹ is wrong; you should use (̀ ) instead (this is
U+0300), since the later is the combining grave accent while the former
is a spacing character.

Regards,
 Khaled

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 Free font developer
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Re: [NTG-context] Differences in smart quotes MKII -> MKIV

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 18:58, James Fisher wrote:
>
> ``Yes, but --- ''
>
> In both cases, MKIV treats the opening grave character (is that the name?
> backtick?) literally rather than as an opening smart quote.

That's on purpose (there are some threads on the mailing list that
explain it). You may modify the behaviour if you want (without asking
how to do it), but it's best to use the proper quotes or
\quotation{...}.

Mojca

See:
[NTG-context] using `` '' the output is wrong.
http://archive.contextgarden.net/message/20100118.123457.5dc7162a.en.html
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Re: [NTG-context] bib module, inproceedings & mkii/mkiv incompatibility

I confirm the above -- with the exception that mkiv does show the year, just
after the authors.

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Mojca Miklavec <
mojca.miklavec.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Taco,
>
> the following example (I need to admit that I'm not sure how to
> properly cite inproceedings) returns a different result in mkii and
> mkiv. My citation (the fields I use) is probably a bit wrong, but the
> results should be the same in my opinion. (Only mkii shows the year,
> in mkiv there's an extra space; the month is not shown anywhere,
> pubname is only shown  in mkii although it's probably not needed
> anyway since it's already the title (= booktitle in bibtex?) that
> takes that role. It's also not really clear to me why I need to use
> author and not artauthor, but well ...)
>
>
> It may be sensible to have some reference about which fields are
> sensible for what type of publication also among the ConTeXt manuals.
>
> From some unofficial BibTeX reference
> (http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/~binder/texhelp/bibtx-14.html
> ):
>
> Format:
> @INPROCEEDINGS{citation_key,
>required_fields [, optional_fields] }
>
> Required fields: author, title, booktitle, year
> Optional fields: editor, pages, organization, publisher, address,
> month, note, key
>
> \usemodule
>[bib]
> \setuppublications
>[alternative=num,
> criterium=all,
> sorttype=cite]
>
> \startpublication
>[k=3Ddosimetry,
> t=inproceedings,
> a=Kormoll,
> s=,
> u=]
>\arttitle{3D In-vivo Dosimetry for Photon Radiotherapy Based on Pair
> Production}
>\title{IEEE Nuclear Science Symposium Medical Imaging Conference
> Record}
>\author[]{Thomas}[T.]{}{Kormoll}
>\author[]{Daniela}[D.]{}{Kunath}
>\author[]{Wolfgang}[W.]{}{Enghardt}
>\volume{}
>\issue{}
>\city{Orlando, Florida}
>\pubyear{2009}
>\pubname{IEEE Nuclear Science Symposium Conference Record}
>\month{October}
>\day{25-31}
>\pages{2969-2975}
>\doi{}
>\abstract{}
> \stoppublication
>
> \starttext
>
> \cite[3Ddosimetry]
>
> \placepublications
>
> \stoptext
>
> Thanks,
>Mojca
>
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[NTG-context] Differences in smart quotes MKII -> MKIV

Hi,


(Forgetting our documentation philosophy session for a minute,)

I'm experiencing issues in MKIV with smart quotes.  Specifically, opening
quotes.  Compare the output of `texexec dash-test' and `context quote-test'
on the following:

\starttext
`Yes, but --- '

`--- this is an interruption! Get down on the floor!'

The interjection was quite {\em unexpected} ---
  indeed, `shocking'.
\stoptext


And the following with double quotes:


\starttext
``Yes, but --- ''

``--- this is an interruption! Get down on the floor!''

The interjection was quite {\em unexpected} ---
  indeed, ``shocking''.
\stoptext


In both cases, MKIV treats the opening grave character (is that the name?
backtick?) literally rather than as an opening smart quote.



James
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[NTG-context] bib module, inproceedings & mkii/mkiv incompatibility

Hello Taco,

the following example (I need to admit that I'm not sure how to
properly cite inproceedings) returns a different result in mkii and
mkiv. My citation (the fields I use) is probably a bit wrong, but the
results should be the same in my opinion. (Only mkii shows the year,
in mkiv there's an extra space; the month is not shown anywhere,
pubname is only shown  in mkii although it's probably not needed
anyway since it's already the title (= booktitle in bibtex?) that
takes that role. It's also not really clear to me why I need to use
author and not artauthor, but well ...)


It may be sensible to have some reference about which fields are
sensible for what type of publication also among the ConTeXt manuals.

>From some unofficial BibTeX reference
(http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/~binder/texhelp/bibtx-14.html):

Format:
 @INPROCEEDINGS{citation_key,
required_fields [, optional_fields] }

Required fields: author, title, booktitle, year
Optional fields: editor, pages, organization, publisher, address,
month, note, key

\usemodule
[bib]
\setuppublications
[alternative=num,
 criterium=all,
 sorttype=cite]

\startpublication
[k=3Ddosimetry,
 t=inproceedings,
 a=Kormoll,
 s=,
 u=]
\arttitle{3D In-vivo Dosimetry for Photon Radiotherapy Based on Pair
Production}
\title{IEEE Nuclear Science Symposium Medical Imaging Conference Record}
\author[]{Thomas}[T.]{}{Kormoll}
\author[]{Daniela}[D.]{}{Kunath}
\author[]{Wolfgang}[W.]{}{Enghardt}
\volume{}
\issue{}
\city{Orlando, Florida}
\pubyear{2009}
\pubname{IEEE Nuclear Science Symposium Conference Record}
\month{October}
\day{25-31}
\pages{2969-2975}
\doi{}
\abstract{}
\stoppublication

\starttext

\cite[3Ddosimetry]

\placepublications

\stoptext

Thanks,
Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:
>
>  On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 4:06 AM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:
>>
>>  On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:
>>>
>>>  (2) converted it all to reStructuredText using html2rest.py (
>>>
 http://bitbucket.org/djerdo/musette/src/tip/musette/html/html2rest.py)


>>> The values in texwebshow are generated from xml files
>>> http://source.contextgarden.net/tex/context/interface/cont-en.xml
>>>
>>>
>>>  Well now, that's interesting.  May I ask where that XML itself comes
>> from?
>> Is it hand-maintained by Hans/Taco/Patrick?
>>
>
> It is hand maintained. Ideally, whenever someone suggests an enhancement,
> they should also send an update for the interface files.
>
>
Ouch.


>
>   - In my humble opinion, TeXies need to get out of the habit of
>>>
 'self-documenting' TeX using TeX itself.  TeX is not some replacement
 for
 all markup, it's for producing beautiful books (OK, and some
 presentations);
 in any case, this habit smacks of introversion.


>>> In this case it is not a question of markup, but of the output format,
>>> and
>>> whether the source and the documentation are in sync or not. Basically,
>>> context sources are documented as
>>>
>>> %D documentation ...
>>>
>>> \tex code
>>>
>>> %D documentation
>>>
>>> \tex code
>>>
>>> In principle, we can replace the markup in the documentation to xml or an
>>> ascii markup. It is easy enough to extract the %D lines and post-process
>>> them by any tool that you like. The biggest advantage of using a pdf
>>> output
>>> is that we can show the output of code snippets. For example,
>>>
>>> \startbuffer
>>> some tex code
>>> \stopbuffer
>>>
>>> \typebuffer
>>>
>>> gives
>>>
>>> \getbuffer
>>>
>>> thereby ensuring that the documentation is showing the correct behavior.
>>> To
>>> do this in html requires additional context run, converting the output to
>>> png, and displaying the png (this is how the wiki treats   ...
>>>  tags).
>>>
>>>
>>>  That is also something to think about.  But I don't think it's really a
>> serious problem -- the Mediawiki  works well enough.  In terms of
>> user-friendliness I would say it works better than in a massive PDF -- I
>> would rather consult an image on the web.
>>
>
> I personally prefer a massive PDF to a massive HTML with lots of images.
> With pdf you can also *search* the output. A perfect solution will be to
> generate both outputs from a single source, but that means a custom made
> solution.
>
>
I'll put the PDF vs. HTML argument to rest :) ... suffice to say that I
thoroughly agree a semantic single-source solution with multiple outputs is
highly desirable.  I've just two pieces of guidance on the roads not to go
down:

(1) XML isn't a great solution because, while it's purely semantic,
extensible, easily parseable, and all the rest of it, it is *horrible* to
look at and maintain
(2) TeX isn't a great solution because of its curious property that it is
only really parseable by TeX itself ... none of the "tex-to-"
attempts that I've seen are a viable option IMO.


>
>  It wouldn't be too hard to alter Sphinx (as a for example; I suggest
>> Sphinx
>> so we can talk concretely) so that all TeX-markupped code is shown
>> side-by-side as [ syntax-highlighted code | ConTeXt output as PNG ].
>>  (This
>> would be an improvement on the wiki implementation where the TeX code is
>> duplicated in the source.)
>>
>
> This is what wiki does.  shows both the source and
> the output side by side. This was a later edition, so there is still code
> that duplicates the source in   and 
>
>
Duly noted.  I guess I've just happened to only see the latter.


> Aditya
>
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right


On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, luigi scarso wrote:


On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:

I personally prefer a massive PDF to a massive HTML with lots of images.
With pdf you can also *search* the output. A perfect solution will be to
generate both outputs from a single source, but that means a custom made
solution.

Doable with luatex.


That defeats the whole point of what James is suggesting. Use an existing, 
feature rich system for source documentation rather than rolling out your 
own.


Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:
> I personally prefer a massive PDF to a massive HTML with lots of images.
> With pdf you can also *search* the output. A perfect solution will be to
> generate both outputs from a single source, but that means a custom made
> solution.
Doable with luatex.

-- 
luigi
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right


On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:


On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 4:06 AM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:


On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:

 (2) converted it all to reStructuredText using html2rest.py (

http://bitbucket.org/djerdo/musette/src/tip/musette/html/html2rest.py)



The values in texwebshow are generated from xml files
http://source.contextgarden.net/tex/context/interface/cont-en.xml



Well now, that's interesting.  May I ask where that XML itself comes from?
Is it hand-maintained by Hans/Taco/Patrick?


It is hand maintained. Ideally, whenever someone suggests an enhancement, 
they should also send an update for the interface files.



 - In my humble opinion, TeXies need to get out of the habit of

'self-documenting' TeX using TeX itself.  TeX is not some replacement for
all markup, it's for producing beautiful books (OK, and some
presentations);
in any case, this habit smacks of introversion.



In this case it is not a question of markup, but of the output format, and
whether the source and the documentation are in sync or not. Basically,
context sources are documented as

%D documentation ...

\tex code

%D documentation

\tex code

In principle, we can replace the markup in the documentation to xml or an
ascii markup. It is easy enough to extract the %D lines and post-process
them by any tool that you like. The biggest advantage of using a pdf output
is that we can show the output of code snippets. For example,

\startbuffer
some tex code
\stopbuffer

\typebuffer

gives

\getbuffer

thereby ensuring that the documentation is showing the correct behavior. To
do this in html requires additional context run, converting the output to
png, and displaying the png (this is how the wiki treats   ...
 tags).



That is also something to think about.  But I don't think it's really a
serious problem -- the Mediawiki  works well enough.  In terms of
user-friendliness I would say it works better than in a massive PDF -- I
would rather consult an image on the web.


I personally prefer a massive PDF to a massive HTML with lots of images. 
With pdf you can also *search* the output. A perfect solution will be to 
generate both outputs from a single source, but that means a custom made

solution.


It wouldn't be too hard to alter Sphinx (as a for example; I suggest Sphinx
so we can talk concretely) so that all TeX-markupped code is shown
side-by-side as [ syntax-highlighted code | ConTeXt output as PNG ].  (This
would be an improvement on the wiki implementation where the TeX code is
duplicated in the source.)


This is what wiki does.  shows both the source and 
the output side by side. This was a later edition, so there is still code 
that duplicates the source in   and 


Aditya
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Re: [NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

Hi Peter,


Thanks for your thoughts.  I have wondered previously (in other projects)
about the legitimacy of a distinction between manuals and command
references.  With a lot of effort, it can work -- but to make it work,
duplication is inevitable.  Manuals simply have to make references to
commands, and I suspect that a 'comprehensive' user-friendly user manual is
nothing but a comprehensive command reference, with the commands organised
in a human way, with interspersed commentary, suggestions for use, and
examples of usage.

I'm in complete agreement, though, that however this is done, a VCS is
necessary.  (I'm plugging git as my favourite, but it's just the principle
I'm arguing for here.)


James


On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Peter Münster  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> These suggestions are a bit a reply to the thoughts of James Fisher.
>
> It would be nice, to have once in the future at least 2 up to date context
> documentations:
>
> - a context user manual
> For me, it's the merge of all scattered articles and manuals. Each chapter
> treats a particular subject, such as "columns" or "footnotes".
> It seems, that Taco is working on such a manual.
>
> - a context command reference manual
> This is just the xml-database used by texshow. Each command should be
> described in detail with every possible options.
> On the one hand, texshow uses this database, on the other hand a well
> structured command reference can be generated as pdf-file.
>
> Filling in all the details in both projects is a lot of work, so perhaps it
> would be a good idea, to set up a system, that makes it easy for users to
> contribute to these projects (patches) and easy for Taco and Hans to
> acknowledge or reject those patches.
>
> This "system" would be nothing else as some vcs (git or svn for example)
> with some commit-hooks, that manage the acknowledgement by Hans and Taco
> (and perhaps others).
>
> The tex-files of the user-manual are already under version control, and the
> xml-database is only the cont-en.xml file, that would need to be put under
> version control too.
>
> So, perhaps with not too much effort, users can be easily invited to
> contribute to the documentation projects and the quality can be assured
> through the acknowledgements of the developers.
>
> Cheers, Peter
>
> --
> Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/
>
>
>
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Re: [NTG-context] bookmarks point to page, not to section start

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:00, Hans Hagen wrote:
> On 26-2-2010 14:09, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
>
>> The behaviour seems to be the same in both MKII and MKIV (MKII only
>> doesn't respect the accented characters; but I understand the pain of
>> recoding).
>
> technically mkii should be able to to the right accents when you enable
> unicode pdf output but by default it's doing pdfdoc which is somewhat
> limited; chinese can have chinese bookmarks even in mkii but why bother
> about mkii and unicode ...

MKIV still happens to have problems from time to time ... so it's
better to have a backup.

>> I'm using the following code to place the bookmarks:
>>
>> \setupinteraction
>>        [state=start]
>> \setupinteractionscreen
>>        [option=bookmark]
>> \placebookmarks
>>        [section,subsection,subsubsection]
>>        [section,subsection]
>>
>> \starttext
>> \dorecurse{20}{\section{title} \input tufte}
>> \stoptext
>
> ok, here's a little secret
>
> \setupinteraction
>  [focus=width]

But it doesn't make any difference.

Mojca
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[NTG-context] suggestions for context documentation

2010-03-04 Thread Peter Münster

Hello,

These suggestions are a bit a reply to the thoughts of James Fisher.

It would be nice, to have once in the future at least 2 up to date context
documentations:

- a context user manual
For me, it's the merge of all scattered articles and manuals. Each chapter
treats a particular subject, such as "columns" or "footnotes".
It seems, that Taco is working on such a manual.

- a context command reference manual
This is just the xml-database used by texshow. Each command should be
described in detail with every possible options.
On the one hand, texshow uses this database, on the other hand a well
structured command reference can be generated as pdf-file.

Filling in all the details in both projects is a lot of work, so perhaps it
would be a good idea, to set up a system, that makes it easy for users to
contribute to these projects (patches) and easy for Taco and Hans to
acknowledge or reject those patches.

This "system" would be nothing else as some vcs (git or svn for example)
with some commit-hooks, that manage the acknowledgement by Hans and Taco
(and perhaps others).

The tex-files of the user-manual are already under version control, and the
xml-database is only the cont-en.xml file, that would need to be put under
version control too.

So, perhaps with not too much effort, users can be easily invited to
contribute to the documentation projects and the quality can be assured
through the acknowledgements of the developers.

Cheers, Peter

-- 
Contact information: http://pmrb.free.fr/contact/


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Re: [NTG-context] Something is wrong with backgrounds

2010-03-04 Thread Andreas Harder


Am 04.03.2010 um 15:31 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster:

> Am 04.03.10 15:17, schrieb Andreas Harder:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> if I compile the following example with the actual beta, the circle is set 
>> in foreground … even if the background is not set.
>> 
>> \startuseMPgraphic{test}
>>   fill fullcircle scaled 5cm withcolor red;
>> \stopuseMPgraphic
>> 
>> \defineoverlay[test]{\useMPgraphic{test}}
>>   
> \defineoverlay[...][…]

:) Thanks Wolfgang!

Andreas
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Re: [NTG-context] setbreakpoints

*tumbleweed*

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 11:09 PM, Vyatcheslav Yatskovsky <
yatskov...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Wolfgang,
>
> To be serious, what  \setbreakpoints[] do? I want to wikify this command.
>
> Vyatcheslav
>
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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right

Hi Aditya,

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 4:06 AM, Aditya Mahajan  wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, James Fisher wrote:
>
>  Right, to show I'm not just empty words, I've just spent ~90 minutes
>> preparing the beginnings of some decent documentation.  Presenting
>> http://github.com/eegg/ConTeXt-doc : basically, I've:
>>
>
> Interesting.
>
>
>  (2) converted it all to reStructuredText using html2rest.py (
>> http://bitbucket.org/djerdo/musette/src/tip/musette/html/html2rest.py)
>>
>
> The values in texwebshow are generated from xml files
> http://source.contextgarden.net/tex/context/interface/cont-en.xml
>
>
Well now, that's interesting.  May I ask where that XML itself comes from?
Is it hand-maintained by Hans/Taco/Patrick?


>
>  - There's a hella lot of documentation to do here.  Most of the pages in
>> texshow are just placeholders.  There's also massive capabilities in
>> something like Sphinx to organize the code documentation with sensible
>> commentaries.
>>
>
> Someone will still need to *write* the details. That has been the biggest
> bane of ConTeXt documentation. Almost all documentation is written by Hans
> and Taco and currently they want to focus on development and advanced
> documentation, and not converting all documentation to an organized html.
>
>
Of course.  So before people offer to write documentation, the barriers to
it being written have to be lowered.  No sane person wants to (read: *I*
don't want to) hand-maintain one massive XML file.


>
>  - In my humble opinion, TeXies need to get out of the habit of
>> 'self-documenting' TeX using TeX itself.  TeX is not some replacement for
>> all markup, it's for producing beautiful books (OK, and some
>> presentations);
>> in any case, this habit smacks of introversion.
>>
>
> In this case it is not a question of markup, but of the output format, and
> whether the source and the documentation are in sync or not. Basically,
> context sources are documented as
>
> %D documentation ...
>
> \tex code
>
> %D documentation
>
> \tex code
>
> In principle, we can replace the markup in the documentation to xml or an
> ascii markup. It is easy enough to extract the %D lines and post-process
> them by any tool that you like. The biggest advantage of using a pdf output
> is that we can show the output of code snippets. For example,
>
> \startbuffer
> some tex code
> \stopbuffer
>
> \typebuffer
>
> gives
>
> \getbuffer
>
> thereby ensuring that the documentation is showing the correct behavior. To
> do this in html requires additional context run, converting the output to
> png, and displaying the png (this is how the wiki treats   ...
>  tags).
>
>
That is also something to think about.  But I don't think it's really a
serious problem -- the Mediawiki  works well enough.  In terms of
user-friendliness I would say it works better than in a massive PDF -- I
would rather consult an image on the web.

It wouldn't be too hard to alter Sphinx (as a for example; I suggest Sphinx
so we can talk concretely) so that all TeX-markupped code is shown
side-by-side as [ syntax-highlighted code | ConTeXt output as PNG ].  (This
would be an improvement on the wiki implementation where the TeX code is
duplicated in the source.)


>
>  - Why on earth is there a git repository that is just slave storage?  That
>> uses about 1% of its capabilities; it seems a terrible waste.
>>
>
> Because ConTeXt has only 1 main developer :-)
>
>
Again I smell circular reasoning :) ... I suppose at this point I want to
ask Hans personally: is cutting everyone else out from the workflow a design
decision?


>
> Aditya
>


p.s.; I've been updating documentation of 'Enumerations' in the git repo --
I've chosen to develop a little patch of code as an example of what
documentation code be across the board.



Best,



James


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Re: [NTG-context] Something is wrong with backgrounds

2010-03-04 Thread Wolfgang Schuster


Am 04.03.10 15:17, schrieb Andreas Harder:

Hi all,

if I compile the following example with the actual beta, the circle is set in 
foreground … even if the background is not set.

\startuseMPgraphic{test}
   fill fullcircle scaled 5cm withcolor red;
\stopuseMPgraphic

\defineoverlay[test]{\useMPgraphic{test}}
   

\defineoverlay[...][...]

Wolfgang

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Re: [NTG-context] Occasional words sticking out from flush-right