Re: [NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/18/2021 5:48 PM, Thangalin wrote:

The csquotes package can curl straight quotes:

https://ctan.org/pkg/csquotes 

I don't know how smart its smart quote feature is, though, with respect 
to apostrophes.


me neither and as we always had lots of quote related stuff on board i'm 
also not going to explore it ... when apostrophes get translated as you 
do but with active characters it's no fun (ok, we still have a few in 
context like ~ and |)


just for fun i made

   {\addff{primes} 123'345''\par}

use primes ... in a next upload

Hans



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Re: [NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/18/2021 6:05 PM, Thangalin wrote:
 > In HTML you should be able to use  – I know that doesn’t work 
reliably in browsers (some add straight quotes to my CSS-configured 
guillemets).


The Converter class maps token replacements:

https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenquotes/blob/d6c9761f8fe1ae96391f25dc73be52050a148e37/src/main/java/com/whitemagicsoftware/keenquotes/Converter.java#L15 



It'd be trivial to use  and , instead. For my purposes, HTML 
entities work.


 > Using \quotation / \quote I avoid typing quotation marks in most cases.

When writing plain text documents, adding TeX code or HTML code to 
prescribe how the document should be presented is best avoided, so as to 
keep the document decoupled from a particular tool chain. YMMV. A deeper 
solution allows users to type the correctly curled quotes directly into 
the document.
As with may things today this quote is rather english language centered 
.. tex operates in a multi lingual domain and quotes have always been 
dealt with using macros so that we can be sure we get the right ones 
(left/right) with the right spacing.


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Thangalin]

> In HTML you should be able to use  – I know that doesn’t work reliably
in browsers (some add straight quotes to my CSS-configured guillemets).

The Converter class maps token replacements:

https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenquotes/blob/d6c9761f8fe1ae96391f25dc73be52050a148e37/src/main/java/com/whitemagicsoftware/keenquotes/Converter.java#L15

It'd be trivial to use  and , instead. For my purposes, HTML
entities work.

> Using \quotation / \quote I avoid typing quotation marks in most cases.

When writing plain text documents, adding TeX code or HTML code to
prescribe how the document should be presented is best avoided, so as to
keep the document decoupled from a particular tool chain. YMMV. A deeper
solution allows users to type the correctly curled quotes directly into the
document.
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Re: [NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Thangalin]

The csquotes package can curl straight quotes:

https://ctan.org/pkg/csquotes

I don't know how smart its smart quote feature is, though, with respect to
apostrophes.
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Re: [NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 18.06.2021 um 04:08 schrieb Thangalin :
> 
> Hraban,
> 
> > In what kind of workflows does your program make sense?
> 
> Have you looked around the web lately?
> 
> KeenWrite (https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite), my plain text editor, 
> can neither convert nor easily type curly quotes into the application. 
> Recently, I added ConTeXt integration for exporting to PDF files. ConTeXt 
> doesn't curl the quotes, which I found a little surprising (because LaTeX has 
> a quote curling package). Not seeing an obvious solution, I coded my own 
> library because all the other libraries I found were either not up to the 
> task or required a massive natural language parser dependency.
> 
> My workflow will be: Edit plain text in KeenWrite, export to XHTML, curl the 
> quotes, run ConTeXt to typeset XHTML.
> 
> Another workflow: Edit plain text in KeenWrite, export to XHTML, curl the 
> quotes, upload to CMS.
> 
> The problem is that when typewriters were invented, curly quotes didn't make 
> it onto the popular layouts. Then, after Unicode, curly closing single quotes 
> and curly apostrophes were not made unique. HTML entities get it right, 
> though, with l/rdquo, l/rsquo, and apos. C'est la vie.

I’m used to type special characters with key combinations, even use my own 
keyboard layout to access more accented characters via dead keys. (Nothing 
fancy like Neo, but just extensions to Apple’s German keyboard layout.) I 
always wanted to port that to my Linux machine, but even the default (German) 
keyboard layout for Linux lets me access curly quotes. And I didn’t find a 
handy keylayout editor like “Ukelele” for Linux. Anyway...

Using \quotation / \quote I avoid typing quotation marks in most cases.

There are exceptions – Hans mentioned missing or open-ended quotes, and 
sometimes the nesting of commands gets hairy (if quotations span paragraphs 
with additional markup), so that I manually type the quotation marks.

I regard it a bad idea to make straight quotation marks (inch marks) active to 
allow for “curling” them and would suggest the csquotes package with its 
\enquote command for LaTeX, even if it’s missing the setups for many languages.

In HTML you should be able to use  – I know that doesn’t work reliably in 
browsers (some add straight quotes to my CSS-configured guillemets).

Anyway, sorry for being negative on your project. It’s great if it helps you 
and others.

Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/18/2021 4:08 AM, Thangalin wrote:

Hraban,

 > In what kind of workflows does your program make sense?

Have you looked around the web lately?

KeenWrite (https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite 
), my plain text editor, can 
neither convert nor easily type curly quotes into the application. 
Recently, I added ConTeXt integration for exporting to PDF files. 
ConTeXt doesn't curl the quotes, which I found a little surprising 
(because LaTeX has a quote curling package). Not seeing an obvious 
solution, I coded my own library because all the other libraries I found 
were either not up to the task or required a massive natural language 
parser dependency.


My workflow will be: Edit plain text in KeenWrite, export to XHTML, curl 
the quotes, run ConTeXt to typeset XHTML.


Another workflow: Edit plain text in KeenWrite, export to XHTML, curl 
the quotes, upload to CMS.


The problem is that when typewriters were invented, curly quotes didn't 
make it onto the popular layouts. Then, after Unicode, curly closing 
single quotes and curly apostrophes were not made unique. HTML entities 
get it right, though, with l/rdquo, l/rsquo, and apos. C'est la vie.

what do you mean with 'latex curls quotes' .. can you give an example

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Thangalin]

Hraban,

> In what kind of workflows does your program make sense?

Have you looked around the web lately?

KeenWrite (https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenwrite), my plain text editor,
can neither convert nor easily type curly quotes into the application.
Recently, I added ConTeXt integration for exporting to PDF files. ConTeXt
doesn't curl the quotes, which I found a little surprising (because LaTeX
has a quote curling package). Not seeing an obvious solution, I coded my
own library because all the other libraries I found were either not up to
the task or required a massive natural language parser dependency.

My workflow will be: Edit plain text in KeenWrite, export to XHTML, curl
the quotes, run ConTeXt to typeset XHTML.

Another workflow: Edit plain text in KeenWrite, export to XHTML, curl the
quotes, upload to CMS.

The problem is that when typewriters were invented, curly quotes didn't
make it onto the popular layouts. Then, after Unicode, curly closing single
quotes and curly apostrophes were not made unique. HTML entities get it
right, though, with l/rdquo, l/rsquo, and apos. C'est la vie.
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Re: [NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Hans Hagen]

On 6/18/2021 12:10 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

I usually convert all kinds of quotation marks into \quotation{} / \quote{} 
using the regex search of my editor; a regex replacement is also part of my 
docx-to-ConTeXt converter script. (I see no need to avoid regexes, but YMMV.)

The biggest problem I face are mixed and wrong quotation marks, e.g. English 
marks in a German text, a mixture of curly/straight marks, traditional LaTeX q. 
marks and similar mistakes. Some programs have a default of English single 
quotes with German double quotes :(

In what kind of workflows does your program make sense?
(Please don’t be offended, my view is limited.)
lua is normally fast enough to handle it wirh a few expresions or lpeg 
but in the end it depends on hwo far one will go


for instance, if it is for converting gutenberg files that extensive 
conversion can help ... with intermediate test runs (for instance 
coloring quitations quickly shows a runaway that then can be fixed in 
the input


For instance:

"Not all open quotes are closed...

kind of tricky because there one needs to know the source so there is no 
real universal solution (one could layer it)


in the past we had projects where we did the rendering and used tex but 
the rendering was trivial ... they came to us because we were able to 
turn crap into useful (it's unbelievable what can come from databases or 
generated from web applications, lack of symmetry, multiple escaping, 
bad encodings, inconsistencies) ... unfortunately the money is often 
already spent in getting to the stage where the crap is produced


but anyway after year sone kind of knows that there is always a solution 
(also because tex and related tools are so flexible and can help with 
diagnosing)


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

I usually convert all kinds of quotation marks into \quotation{} / \quote{} 
using the regex search of my editor; a regex replacement is also part of my 
docx-to-ConTeXt converter script. (I see no need to avoid regexes, but YMMV.)

The biggest problem I face are mixed and wrong quotation marks, e.g. English 
marks in a German text, a mixture of curly/straight marks, traditional LaTeX q. 
marks and similar mistakes. Some programs have a default of English single 
quotes with German double quotes :(

In what kind of workflows does your program make sense?
(Please don’t be offended, my view is limited.)

Hraban

> Am 17.06.2021 um 22:28 schrieb Thangalin :
> 
> I've written a Java-based lexer/parser that can convert straight quotes to 
> curly quotes for English prose. It's a one-pass algorithm (O(n)) that uses 
> neither look-behind nor regex. Here's a list of test cases it handles:
> 
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/DaveJarvis/keenquotes/main/lib/src/test/resources/com/keenwrite/quotes/smartypants.txt
> 
> A test harness converted several Project Gutenberg texts quite well. The 
> folks at PG may be interested in using it themselves to help convert quotes 
> in older texts en masse. The source code is MIT-licensed:
> 
> https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenquotes/
> 
> The code should port to Lua fairly easily, should anyone be interested in 
> adding a straight/curly quotation mark conversion module to ConTeXt. (Similar 
> to the LaTeX package, but without using regex.)
> 
> Cheers everyone!
> ___
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[NTG-context] Straight Quotes / Curly Quotes

[Thangalin]

I've written a Java-based lexer/parser that can convert straight quotes to
curly quotes for English prose. It's a one-pass algorithm (O(n)) that uses
neither look-behind nor regex. Here's a list of test cases it handles:

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/DaveJarvis/keenquotes/main/lib/src/test/resources/com/keenwrite/quotes/smartypants.txt

A test harness converted several Project Gutenberg texts quite well. The
folks at PG may be interested in using it themselves to help convert quotes
in older texts en masse. The source code is MIT-licensed:

https://github.com/DaveJarvis/keenquotes/

The code should port to Lua fairly easily, should anyone be interested in
adding a straight/curly quotation mark conversion module to ConTeXt.
(Similar to the LaTeX package, but without using regex.)

Cheers everyone!
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