Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: ntg-context Im Auftrag von Pablo > Rodriguez via ntg-context > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Oktober 2022 20:02 > An: Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context > Cc: Pablo Rodriguez > Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation > > Hans added hyphenmin some time ago: > > \setuplanguage[de][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=6] > \setuplanguage[deo][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=5] > \mainlanguage[de] > \starttext > \startTEXpage[offset=1em] > \hyphenatedword{davon} > \deo\hyphenatedword{davon} > \stopTEXpage > \stoptext > > It is technically on the wiki, but it lacks proper “wikification”. I just wanted to add it to the hyphenation page on the wiki, but I've seen that you have just added it a couple of days ago. Thanks! Denis ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
On 10/19/22 16:47, Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context wrote: >> [...] >> Many prefixes have two letters, so changing the default may be >> reasonable. But there are more experienced German typographers on >> this list who can chime in. > > After some research, I found the recommendation in > Forssman, de Jong: Detailtypografie (4. Aufl, 2008, S. 124f.) to > use 2/3 for German justified texts, and 3/4 to 5/5 for ragged text. > They also recommend to never hyphenate words with 5 letters, not sure > that can be encoded. Hi Leah, Hans added hyphenmin some time ago: \setuplanguage[de][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=6] \setuplanguage[deo][lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=3, hyphenmin=5] \mainlanguage[de] \starttext \startTEXpage[offset=1em] \hyphenatedword{davon} \deo\hyphenatedword{davon} \stopTEXpage \stoptext It is technically on the wiki, but it lacks proper “wikification”. I hope it helps, Pablo ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Leah Neukirchen via ntg-context writes: > Max Chernoff via ntg-context writes: > >> Hi Leah, >> >>> I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered >>> the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this >>> down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer: >>> >>> \starttext >>> \language[de] >>> \showhyphens{Zusammenhang} >>> \showhyphens{anderswo} >>> \showhyphens{anderswoher} >>> \stoptext >>> >>> This shows >>> languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang >>> languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo >>> languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her >> >> Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to >> 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I >> have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in >> ConTeXt with: > > Perfect, thanks! > > Many prefixes have two letters, so changing the default may be > reasonable. But there are more experienced German typographers on > this list who can chime in. After some research, I found the recommendation in Forssman, de Jong: Detailtypografie (4. Aufl, 2008, S. 124f.) to use 2/3 for German justified texts, and 3/4 to 5/5 for ragged text. They also recommend to never hyphenate words with 5 letters, not sure that can be encoded. -- Leah Neukirchenhttps://leahneukirchen.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 06:49:23AM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote: > Thank you, Leah, Max and Wolfgang! I changed that immediately in all of my > ongoing projects, but I don’t think we should change the default after all > these years. Are you sure that the default in ConTeXt has *not* changed in all these years? :-) Arthur ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Am 29.09.22 um 08:27 schrieb Arthur Rosendahl: On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 06:49:23AM +0200, Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context wrote: Thank you, Leah, Max and Wolfgang! I changed that immediately in all of my ongoing projects, but I don’t think we should change the default after all these years. Are you sure that the default in ConTeXt has *not* changed in all these years? :-) jag vet inte Hraban ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Am 29.09.22 um 06:10 schrieb Wolfgang Schuster via ntg-context: Max Chernoff via ntg-context schrieb am 29.09.2022 um 02:17: Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in ConTeXt with: \mainlanguage[de] \lefthyphenmin=2 \righthyphenmin=2 You can use \setuplanguage to change the values. \setuplanguage [de] [ lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=2] Thank you, Leah, Max and Wolfgang! I changed that immediately in all of my ongoing projects, but I don’t think we should change the default after all these years. published: https://literatur.social/@fiee/109079837141552277 Hraban ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Max Chernoff via ntg-context schrieb am 29.09.2022 um 02:17: Hi Leah, I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer: \starttext \language[de] \showhyphens{Zusammenhang} \showhyphens{anderswo} \showhyphens{anderswoher} \stoptext This shows languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in ConTeXt with: \mainlanguage[de] \lefthyphenmin=2 \righthyphenmin=2 You can use \setuplanguage to change the values. \setuplanguage [de] [ lefthyphenmin=2, righthyphenmin=2] Wolfgang ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Max Chernoff via ntg-context writes: > Hi Leah, > >> I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered >> the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this >> down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer: >> >> \starttext >> \language[de] >> \showhyphens{Zusammenhang} >> \showhyphens{anderswo} >> \showhyphens{anderswoher} >> \stoptext >> >> This shows >> languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang >> languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo >> languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her > > Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to > 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I > have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in > ConTeXt with: Perfect, thanks! Many prefixes have two letters, so changing the default may be reasonable. But there are more experienced German typographers on this list who can chime in. -- Leah Neukirchenhttps://leahneukirchen.org ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Hi Leah, > I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered > the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this > down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer: > > \starttext > \language[de] > \showhyphens{Zusammenhang} > \showhyphens{anderswo} > \showhyphens{anderswoher} > \stoptext > > This shows > languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang > languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo > languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her Babel/ngerman sets left/righthyphenmin to 2/2, but ConTeXt sets those to 3/3 for German. (The English default is 2/3). I don't speak German so I have no idea which is correct, but you can get the same behaviour in ConTeXt with: \mainlanguage[de] \lefthyphenmin=2 \righthyphenmin=2 \starttext \showhyphens{Zusammenhang} \showhyphens{anderswo} \showhyphens{anderswoher} \stoptext which gives: languages > hyphenation > show: Zu[-||]sam[-||]men[-||]hang languages > hyphenation > show: an[-||]ders[-||]wo languages > hyphenation > show: an[-||]ders[-||]wo[-||]her -- Max ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___
[NTG-context] Suboptimal German hyphenation
Hi, I was typesetting some German text on a narrow page when I discovered the justification wasn't as good as expected. I think I tracked this down to differences in hyphenation points, namely, ConTeXt has fewer: \starttext \language[de] \showhyphens{Zusammenhang} \showhyphens{anderswo} \showhyphens{anderswoher} \stoptext This shows languages > hyphenation > show: Zusam[-||]men[-||]hang languages > hyphenation > show: anderswo languages > hyphenation > show: anders[-||]wo[-||]her Now with LaTeX and Babel: \documentclass{article} \usepackage[ngerman]{babel} \begin{document} \showhyphens{Zusammenhang} \showhyphens{anderswo} \showhyphens{anderswoher} \end{document} This shows [] \TU/lmr/m/n/10 Zu-sam-men-hang [] \TU/lmr/m/n/10 an-ders-wo [] \TU/lmr/m/n/10 an-ders-wo-her The LaTeX hyphenation points agree with the German Duden dictionary. As none of the words use more than 7-bit ASCII, I think newer pattern changes are not related. Curiously, the same effect already appears with MKII and MKIV from TeXLive 2014, the oldest I had around. I'm also surprised 'anders-wo-her' gets hyphenated but 'anderswo' is not hyphenated at all. I could not reproduce a difference with English words so far. Any ideas? As far as I understand, MKIV/LMTX should use the de-hyph-1996 patterns which LuaLaTeX uses these days too, via hyph-utf8. Thanks, -- Leah Neukirchenhttps://leahneukirchen.org/ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / https://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : https://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ wiki : https://contextgarden.net ___