Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
Khaled Hosny wrote: On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 12:35:30PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: Khaled Hosny wrote: indeed, so we're looking into it now (an dlet's forget about the page/bodydir for the moment) since textdir and pardir go hand-in-hand i suggest the following \setuplayout[direction=r2l]% also influences general layout issues I assume that will mirror all layout elements like double sided page numbering, right and left pages etc. right? yes, the thing that idris identified in his onthology (which might have white spots); we start on this once some other arabic font subsystem, has been completed \setupalign [r2l] % textdir and pardir \setuparranging[direction=r2l] % will flush pages backward so l2r and r2l values; as they are part of the align mechanism then, they are automatically part of all commands that have a align key This sounds very good for me. ok, the next beta will have the \setupalign and align= available While we are in it, I'd suggest that the current implicit bidi to be revised, currently it is broken. I suggest to be implement Unicode BiDi algorithm[1], and the higher-level protocols[2] part is worthy investigating. Also, I think it should be decoupled from character mirroring, so that one can enable mirroring while explicitly setting text direction. Also, some characters that had assigned mirrored property in Unicode 5.0.0 has been reversed in later revisions[3] because it affects deployed data (the source of all evil!), this includes quotation marks, so we need to handle mirroring of those characters as part of the suggested higher-level protocols as well. hm, this character mirroring is kind of evil anyway (as it can also intefere with font features) i'll look into it later (first need to finish a few things) the problem with bidi is that it it has to work ok with the already present (of triggered) TRT / TLT nodes which is not that trivial Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
Khaled Hosny wrote: On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 11:17:25PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: a better example of the mess we're dealing with: \starttext \pagedir TRT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TLT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TRT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TLT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \stoptext Thanks for the example, I think I got your point. From my understanding, I think text and paragraph direction should be only controlled by \textdir and \pardir respectively, whatever \pagedir or \bodydir are. Indeed, I don't see why \bodydir would influence the text direction inside boxes. indeed, so we're looking into it now (an dlet's forget about the page/bodydir for the moment) since textdir and pardir go hand-in-hand i suggest the following \setuplayout[direction=r2l]% also influences general layout issues \setupalign [r2l] % textdir and pardir \setuparranging[direction=r2l] % will flush pages backward so l2r and r2l values; as they are part of the align mechanism then, they are automatically part of all commands that have a align key Hans - Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com | www.pragma-pod.nl - ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
On Sat, Apr 04, 2009 at 12:35:30PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: Khaled Hosny wrote: indeed, so we're looking into it now (an dlet's forget about the page/bodydir for the moment) since textdir and pardir go hand-in-hand i suggest the following \setuplayout[direction=r2l]% also influences general layout issues I assume that will mirror all layout elements like double sided page numbering, right and left pages etc. right? \setupalign [r2l] % textdir and pardir \setuparranging[direction=r2l] % will flush pages backward so l2r and r2l values; as they are part of the align mechanism then, they are automatically part of all commands that have a align key This sounds very good for me. While we are in it, I'd suggest that the current implicit bidi to be revised, currently it is broken. I suggest to be implement Unicode BiDi algorithm[1], and the higher-level protocols[2] part is worthy investigating. Also, I think it should be decoupled from character mirroring, so that one can enable mirroring while explicitly setting text direction. Also, some characters that had assigned mirrored property in Unicode 5.0.0 has been reversed in later revisions[3] because it affects deployed data (the source of all evil!), this includes quotation marks, so we need to handle mirroring of those characters as part of the suggested higher-level protocols as well. [1]http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/ [2]http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/#Higher-Level_Protocols [3]http://unicode.org/versions/corrigendum6.html Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
Khaled Hosny wrote:
framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor
directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.
\pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
\starttext
\startTEXpage
\input tufte
\stopTEXpage
\framed{Hello world}
\startframedtext
\input tufte
\stopframedtext
\startbackground
\input tufte
\stopbackground
\stoptext
if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl
handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many
aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each
macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we
need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay
Hans
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 02:55:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
Khaled Hosny wrote:
framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor
directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.
\pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
\starttext
\startTEXpage
\input tufte
\stopTEXpage
\framed{Hello world}
\startframedtext
\input tufte
\stopframedtext
\startbackground
\input tufte
\stopbackground
\stoptext
if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl
handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many
aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each
macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we
need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay
I tried to debug thus further, compiling the following document with
both plain and context formats, in plain all boxes are TRT (the part of
the log after Completed box being shipped out [1]), while in context
all boxes are TLT except that hbox that contains the text. Though I
don't know how much relevant is this or what it does actually mean.
\pagedir TRT
\bodydir TRT
\pardir TRT
\textdir TRT
\tracingall
Hello \hbox{World}
\bye
Regards,
Khaled
--
Khaled Hosny
Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team
Free font developer
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
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Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 02:55:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
Khaled Hosny wrote:
framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor
directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.
\pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
\starttext
\startTEXpage
\input tufte
\stopTEXpage
\framed{Hello world}
\startframedtext
\input tufte
\stopframedtext
\startbackground
\input tufte
\stopbackground
\stoptext
if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl
handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many
aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each
macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we
need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay
I tried to debug thus further, compiling the following document with
both plain and context formats, in plain all boxes are TRT (the part of
the log after Completed box being shipped out [1]), while in context
all boxes are TLT except that hbox that contains the text. Though I
don't know how much relevant is this or what it does actually mean.
\pagedir TRT
\bodydir TRT
\pardir TRT
\textdir TRT
\tracingall
Hello \hbox{World}
\bye
you can comment this in cont-new.mkiv
% \def\pagedir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
% \def\bodydir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
i'm trying to figure out what dirs make sense (even when all are enabled
the alignment is no 100% ok; for instance, why should bodydir influence
textdir and pardir (i.e. when i would expect the content to be rl
independent of page/bodydir
(we need some higher level interface and not these low level *dir commands)
best is if you and idris sort this out (is part of idris onthology)
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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___
Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
Khaled Hosny wrote:
On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 02:55:56PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote:
Khaled Hosny wrote:
framed, framedtext, TEXpage (and may be others), no longer honor
directional switches. I'm sure TEXpage at least was OK a month ago.
\pagedir TRT\bodydir TRT\pardir TRT\textdir TRT
\starttext
\startTEXpage
\input tufte
\stopTEXpage
\framed{Hello world}
\startframedtext
\input tufte
\stopframedtext
\startbackground
\input tufte
\stopbackground
\stoptext
if so then it's a side effect of changesin the engine (changes in rl
handling are dangerous because macro packages are internally lr in many
aspects (like positioning data relative to other data) and patching each
macro for rl is non trivial (due to possible side effects) so first we
need to be sure that the luatex engine is okay
I tried to debug thus further, compiling the following document with
both plain and context formats, in plain all boxes are TRT (the part of
the log after Completed box being shipped out [1]), while in context
all boxes are TLT except that hbox that contains the text. Though I
don't know how much relevant is this or what it does actually mean.
a better example of the mess we're dealing with:
\starttext
\pagedir TRT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
tufte \stopTEXpage
\pagedir TLT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
tufte \stopTEXpage
\pagedir TRT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
tufte \stopTEXpage
\pagedir TLT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input
tufte \stopTEXpage
\stoptext
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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___
Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:08:48 -0600, Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl wrote:
you can comment this in cont-new.mkiv
% \def\pagedir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
% \def\bodydir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
i'm trying to figure out what dirs make sense (even when all are
enabled the alignment is no 100% ok; for instance, why should bodydir
influence textdir and pardir (i.e. when i would expect the content to be
rl independent of page/bodydir
(we need some higher level interface and not these low level *dir
commands)
Indeed. We may also need Taco's help; he's about the only one I know who
precisely understands the distinction between \pardir and \bodydir. I did
some extensive testing on this nearly two years ago and could hardly make
sense of it. The user should never have to touch \pardir or \bodydir and
we need a higher level command. Not sure if the same will work at the
macro level.
I'll search for Taco's old detailed explanations of these two and forward
them to you and Khalid.
Best wishes
Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid, Editor-in-Chief
International Journal of Shi`i Studies
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
Idris Samawi Hamid ادريس سماوي حامد wrote:
On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:08:48 -0600, Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl wrote:
you can comment this in cont-new.mkiv
% \def\pagedir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
% \def\bodydir{\expandafter\gobblethreearguments}
i'm trying to figure out what dirs make sense (even when all are
enabled the alignment is no 100% ok; for instance, why should bodydir
influence textdir and pardir (i.e. when i would expect the content to
be rl independent of page/bodydir
(we need some higher level interface and not these low level *dir
commands)
Indeed. We may also need Taco's help; he's about the only one I know who
precisely understands the distinction between \pardir and \bodydir. I
did some extensive testing on this nearly two years ago and could hardly
make sense of it. The user should never have to touch \pardir or
\bodydir and we need a higher level command. Not sure if the same will
work at the macro level.
I'll search for Taco's old detailed explanations of these two and
forward them to you and Khalid.
there has been changes (consistency cleasups) to the engine so you might
want to run some tests again; first we need to be absolutely sure of the
engine backend does things right (i.e. as we expect)
Hans
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/
wiki : http://contextgarden.net
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Re: [NTG-context] \framed (and others) don't honor directional switches
On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 11:17:25PM +0200, Hans Hagen wrote: a better example of the mess we're dealing with: \starttext \pagedir TRT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TLT \bodydir TRT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TRT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \pagedir TLT \bodydir TLT \pardir TRT \textdir TRT \startTEXpage \input tufte \stopTEXpage \stoptext Thanks for the example, I think I got your point. From my understanding, I think text and paragraph direction should be only controlled by \textdir and \pardir respectively, whatever \pagedir or \bodydir are. Indeed, I don't see why \bodydir would influence the text direction inside boxes. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : https://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
