Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
On 1/28/2015 4:10 AM, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of particles,
in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a
comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often
depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In
Spanish, we have other practice.
One solution is to make the rendering depend on the language= bibtex
field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended
the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in:
author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname}
This allows the author to use a free form for each component without
resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How
these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out.
Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of
the use of the language field (or setting).
I've added a tracer for authors. The main problem with authors is that
bibtex was never set up to multilingual (there has been written and
talked a lot about it by Jean Micheakl Hufflen who made a multilingual
bibtex).
So, in order to deal with names, the way to go is roughly as follows:
- multiple names are separated by 'and' (hopefully there are no parents
who names their kids This and That)
- when a name has no commas it gets analyzed and split according to some
heuristics ... there is not that much we can do about it (but we try to
catch as much as possible) ... this can mean that a particle is seen as
one of the surnames but that is seldom a big issue as eventually the
name gets combined again
- in the mkiv publication subsystem names travel around in their split
form: initials, firstnames, vons (bad name, might change), surnames,
juniors (also bad name), so
Alan Xavier von Braslau jr becomes
[A X] [Alan Xavier] [von] [Braslau] [jr]
Now that can can never be robust expecially when names are written in
full, so that is why we look at names with commas differnetly:
Alan Xavier Braslau
becomes
[A X] [Alan Xavier] [] [Braslau] []
but
Xavier Braslau, Alan
becomes
[A] [Alan] [] [Xavier Braslau] []
the snippets in a two element name is still analyzed according to some
heuristics
When there are more snippets (where {} indicates an empty snippet) the
filling of the record depends on the amount of snippets. In principle
you can have of them, including the initials if they are kind of special.)
Keep in mind that there is nothing like a bibtex standard (and it's
still beta anyway awaiting version 1).
Here is a test:
\startbuffer[mybib]
@book{something-1,
author = { Foo Bar von Something },
title = { Whatever 1 },
year = { 2015 }
}
@book{something-2,
author = { Foo Bar von Something and John Doe },
title = { Whatever 2 },
year = { 2015 }
}
@book{something-3,
author = { von Something, Foo Bar and John Doe },
title = { Whatever 3 },
year = { 2015 }
}
@book{something-4,
author = { {}, von Something, Foo Bar and John Doe },
title = { Whatever 4 },
year = { 2015 }
}
@book{something-5,
author = { {}, von Something, {}, Foo Bar and John Doe },
title = { Whatever 5 },
year = { 2015 }
}
@book{something-6,
author = { {}, {von Something}, {}, Foo Bar, FoBa and John Doe },
title = { Whatever 6 },
year = { 2015 }
}
\stopbuffer
\usemodule[art-01]
\usebtxdataset[mybib.buffer]
\starttext
\showbtxdatasetcompleteness[standard]
\page
\showbtxdatasetauthors[standard]
\stoptext
Of course we can add all kind of manipulators when typesetting them, but
adding all kind of complex tweaks to the input makes no sense: (1) I
can't remember them as till now i never needed a bibliography myself,
and (2) Alan can't document them because there are to many demands and
options but above all (3) only one user will use that specific tweak and
forgets about it after that specific thesis demand was met.
Hans
ps. As one has access to the loaded bib data it is always possible to
writ every specific renderers given willingness to mess with Lua.
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
On 28 Jan 2015, at 12:00 , Keith Schultz keithjschu...@icloud.com wrote
We could simply add all kinds of switches and coding to help this process,
but in the end we end up with an over complicated format that grows into a
monster!
and
I as an old school type and database person would think it far better, to take
a more pratical approach.
Most probably I’m not qualified to seriously discuss Bibliography matters in
ConTeXt, but wat Keith has written here appeals to me.
It would probably be OK to try and control all and everything in a Bibliography
with commands and codes if there were only a few standard ways of presenting a
bibliography.
But that is not the case, even if most people seem to use apa-style.
What should one do with an old book, of which there are several “facsimile
editions” and an English translation, and you were required, by the publisher
or the university, to render it in the Bibliography in the following way:
Gasparini, Francesco, L’Armonico pratico al cimbalo (Venice, 1709); repr. (New
York, 1967); repr. (Bologna, 2001); trans. Frank Stillings as The Practical
Harmonist at the Harpsichord (New Haven, CT, 1963)
or, other example:
Buchner, Hans, Das Fundamentbuch (c1525), CH-Bmi, MS F.I.8; ME: in Carl
Paesler, ‘Fundamentbuch von Hans von Constanz, Ein Beitrag zur Geschichte des
Orgelspiels im 16. Jahrhundert’, VMw, 5 (1889), 1-192
?
With a Bibliography to make of about 500 items, for a PhD thesis, of which more
than half were of this kind, I gave up on all sophisticated tools of BibTeX and
exclusively used the format Booklet, with Author, Title, City and PubYear,
generated a .bbl and edited that to give me the correct form.
And, yes, I had to tweak the apa -style a little but that part was easy.
The two examples are in the .bbl-file as follows:
\startpublication[k=Gasparini:2001ublt,t=booklet,
a={{{Gasparini, Francesco}}},y=2001,
n=73,s={Gas}01]
\author[]{}[]{}{{Gasparini, Francesco}}
\pubyear{1963}
\title{{L'armonico pratico al cimbalo {\em (Venice, 1708); repr.~(New York,
1967); repr. (Bologna, 2001); trans.~by Frank Stillings~as} The Practical
Harmonist at the Harpsichord}}
\city{New Haven, CT}
\stoppublication
\startpublication[k=Buchner:1525fblt,t=booklet,
a={{{Buchner, Hans}}},y=,
n=39,s={Buc}]
\author[]{}[]{}{{Buchner, Hans}}
\title{{{Das Fundamentbuch} {\em ({\em c}1525), CH-Bmi, MS F.I.8; ME: in Carl
Paesler, \quote{Fundamentbuch von Hans von Constanz, Ein Beitrag zur
Geschichte des Orgelspiels im 16.~Jahrhundert}}, VMw, {\em 5 (1889), 1-192}}}
\stoppublication
Primitive? Certainly. But it is straightforward, very flexible and it works.
I hope of course that the new Bibliography tool will be very powerful, but I
also hope that it will remain possible, in ConTeXt, to keep doing things in a
simple manner.
Best regards,
Robert Blackstone
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Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
Am Thu, 29 Jan 2015 13:06:59 +0100 schrieb BPJ:
How is a prefix identified as such with this technique?
biber uses the btparse library
(http://search.cpan.org/~ambs/Text-BibTeX-0.70/btparse/doc/bt_split_names.pod)
and prefixes (von-Parts) are more or less identifyed by lowercase
letters (as in bibtex, see also tamethebeast.pdf). I actually run
once into a problem with a lowercase name which biber didn't like:
https://github.com/plk/biber/issues/43
There are some tricks, like \uppercase{d}, commands, braces, which
one can use to fine-tune the name parsing.
Is there a hardcoded list somewhere or is it name begins with a
'word' in lowercase. IMHO it would be desirable that the prefix
itself could be specified in a field.
Well the main problem is that authors are name *lists*, and that
there can be more then one name list in an entry.
But biblatex is extensible. You can, if you want, define a new field
say authorprefixes={de,von,none,Bbla} and then write suitable
macros that uses this prefixes instead of the one parsed from the
name. But I doubt that it is really needed. One shouldn't
overcomplicate a system only to catch every special case.
--
Ulrike Fischer
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/
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Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
How is a prefix identified as such with this technique? Is there a
hardcoded list somewhere or is it name begins with a 'word' in lowercase.
IMHO it would be desirable that the prefix itself could be specified in a
field.
onsdag 28 januari 2015 skrev Ulrike Fischer ne...@nililand.de:
Am Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:11:03 +0100 schrieb Jörg Weger:
how would you “set up an entry properly” in a BibTeX file where you have
only one field for author/editor (serious question!)?
In biblatex/biber you could setup the entries like this:
@book{goethe,
author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang},
title={Faust},
year={1775}
}
@book{halen,
author={van Halen, Edward},
title={Title},
year={1775},
options = {useprefix=true}
}
Then you get Goethe and van Halen.
(It is not a perfect solution: assume a book from Goethe and van
Halen then you would have to use braces to save the van:
author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang and {van Halen}, Edward},
--
Ulrike Fischer
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/
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Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
Hi Alan, Hans,
As you say the treatmeant of the „particles“ are complicated.
They depend on „citizenship“, period, country of title, true nobility
or ennoblement, the region of a country one comes, and form of the particle
(abbreviation, captilization).
Practically all of this information is missing in the a normal bibliography.
Sure we can try to guess some from publication date, language, etc.
But, these are very in accurate, and will not give decent results.
Now, I am all for making as easy as possible for the user and have a system
do as much inference as possible.
We could simply add all kinds of switches and coding to help this process,
but in the end we end up with an over complicated format that grows into a
monster!
I as an old school type and database person would think it far better, to take
a more pratical approach.
Set up the inference rules for the names after 1920. Most of the ambiguity is
gone
for most of the western world to my knowledge! (I can not say much about the
rest,
we have not even talked about them).
We can add fields or a mechanisms where the author of a bibliography can set
display form, sort form etc. that are used.
Yes, this does put the burden on the author, but is the cleanest and most
flexible way to do it.
Or implement a mechanism where the Author of the bibliography can write a
SETUP/filter for the format of the author field and add a field to the format
called
authorfieldtype. this way.
I believe this would be the ConTeXt way.
regards
Keith.
Am 28.01.2015 um 04:10 schrieb Alan BRASLAU alan.bras...@cea.fr:
I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of particles,
in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a
comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often
depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In
Spanish, we have other practice.
One solution is to make the rendering depend on the language= bibtex
field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended
the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in:
author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname}
This allows the author to use a free form for each component without
resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How
these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out.
Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of
the use of the language field (or setting).
Alan
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Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
Am Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:11:03 +0100 schrieb Jörg Weger:
how would you “set up an entry properly” in a BibTeX file where you have
only one field for author/editor (serious question!)?
In biblatex/biber you could setup the entries like this:
@book{goethe,
author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang},
title={Faust},
year={1775}
}
@book{halen,
author={van Halen, Edward},
title={Title},
year={1775},
options = {useprefix=true}
}
Then you get Goethe and van Halen.
(It is not a perfect solution: assume a book from Goethe and van
Halen then you would have to use braces to save the van:
author={von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang and {van Halen}, Edward},
--
Ulrike Fischer
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/
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Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
Hi Keith, how would you “set up an entry properly” in a BibTeX file where you have only one field for author/editor (serious question!)? I normally put the names uninverted but inverting Goethe’s name in the BibTeX file didn’t change anything. As far as I understood ConTeXt can handle inverted and uninverted names in BibTeX name fields equally well. There is something in the default mechanism that interpretes the “von” as part of the surname. What I was proposing was a way to manually switch to another mode where the “von” is treated as an attribute on a by-case-base–just like you can switch between “authoryear” and “authoryears” as I learned today. Greetings Jörg On 27.01.2015 20:16, Keith Schultz wrote: Hi Jörg, Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor came from! Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not von Goethe“. It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there is no switch for it! So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field. regards Keith Am 27.01.2015 um 19:20 schrieb Jörg Weger joerg73@googlemail.com: The default way to diplay (inverted) names with “von” and “van” is “von Goethe” and “van Halen” in in-text references and “von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang” and “van Halen, Edward”. The problem with this is that while AFAIK the Dutch “van Halen” means that one of his ancestors came ”from” a place/city called “Halen” in German names the “von” is always a sign of nobility. Even long before monarchy and nobility was abolished in Germany by the revolution of 1919 you would not have talked about “von Goethe” but simply “Goethe”–so in a reference it would be “(Goethe 1774)” and “Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von” in the publications list, but still “(van Halen 1984)” and “van Halen, Edward”. It would be nice if you could switch between two modes while invoking the citation. I have not yet discovered where this order is defined. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___ ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
Hi Jörg, Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor came from! Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not von Goethe“. It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there is no switch for it! So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field. regards Keith Am 27.01.2015 um 19:20 schrieb Jörg Weger joerg73@googlemail.com: The default way to diplay (inverted) names with “von” and “van” is “von Goethe” and “van Halen” in in-text references and “von Goethe, Johann Wolfgang” and “van Halen, Edward”. The problem with this is that while AFAIK the Dutch “van Halen” means that one of his ancestors came ”from” a place/city called “Halen” in German names the “von” is always a sign of nobility. Even long before monarchy and nobility was abolished in Germany by the revolution of 1919 you would not have talked about “von Goethe” but simply “Goethe”–so in a reference it would be “(Goethe 1774)” and “Goethe, Johann Wolfgang von” in the publications list, but still “(van Halen 1984)” and “van Halen, Edward”. It would be nice if you could switch between two modes while invoking the citation. I have not yet discovered where this order is defined. ___ If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki! maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context webpage : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.net archive : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/ wiki : http://contextgarden.net ___
Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote:
Hi Jörg,
Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility particles in
Germany, but not necessarily always
noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor
came from!
Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore the von
is not truly part of his name.
He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not von Goethe“.
It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there is no
switch for it!
you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might work
So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly, by putting
the von in the right part of the name field.
indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format
btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author get
split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most magic is
under our own control so we can always add variants if needed (maybe
some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but anyway this whole
von business is on our agenda
Hans
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of particles,
in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a
comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often
depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In
Spanish, we have other practice.
One solution is to make the rendering depend on the language= bibtex
field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended
the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in:
author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname}
This allows the author to use a free form for each component without
resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How
these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out.
Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of
the use of the language field (or setting).
Alan
On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:50:44 +0100
Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl wrote:
On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote:
Hi Jörg,
Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility
particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility
particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor
came from!
Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled.
Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be
listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not von Goethe“.
It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so
there is no switch for it!
you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might
work
So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries
properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field.
indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format
btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author
get split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most
magic is under our own control so we can always add variants if
needed (maybe some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but
anyway this whole von business is on our agenda
Hans
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
Thank you very much, Hans.
I think I had tried something with double braces before (I use them also
for German booktitles to keep upper and lowercase intact) but only now I
got it working:
Writing both
“author = {{Johann Wolfgang von} Goethe}”
and
“author = {Goethe, {Johann Wolfgang von}}”
in the BibTeX are easy workarounds for the problem I was describing. I
can happily live with that. In case a problem like that arises I will
anyway first take a look at the according BibTeX entry.
Greetings Jörg
On 27.01.2015 21:50, Hans Hagen wrote:
On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote:
Hi Jörg,
Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility
particles in Germany, but not necessarily always
noblility particles, but at times signify the place where a persons
ancestor came from!
Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled. Therefore
the von is not truly part of his name.
He should be listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not von
Goethe“.
It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so there
is no switch for it!
you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might work
So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries properly,
by putting the von in the right part of the name field.
indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format
btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author get
split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most magic is
under our own control so we can always add variants if needed (maybe
some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but anyway this whole
von business is on our agenda
Hans
-
Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] bibliography again: “von” and “van”
As I have already replied to Hans’ post, I don’t mind using the “double
braces solution” as an easy workaround to distinguish German “vons” and
Dutch “vans”. But I am not sure if that solution solves the problems
with French and Spanish name attributes as well.
Greetings Jörg
On 28.01.2015 04:10, Alan BRASLAU wrote:
I have been arguing with Hans over the proper treatment of particles,
in general. The rules vary greatly - here we are looking at a
comparison between Dutch and German practice. In French, the use often
depends on history differing before and after the revolution. In
Spanish, we have other practice.
One solution is to make the rendering depend on the language= bibtex
field. But this does not work universally. With Hans, we have extended
the bibtex standard so that names can be explicitly separated, as in:
author = {particle, lastname, suffix, firstname}
This allows the author to use a free form for each component without
resorting to any bibtex trickery (like capitalization or not). How
these components are handled or rendered is not entirely worked out.
Indeed, the German practice differs from others. Thus my suggestion of
the use of the language field (or setting).
Alan
On Tue, 27 Jan 2015 21:50:44 +0100
Hans Hagen pra...@wxs.nl wrote:
On 1/27/2015 8:16 PM, Keith Schultz wrote:
Hi Jörg,
Though, generally, the von, as well as a few others, are nobility
particles in Germany, but not necessarily always noblility
particles, but at times signify the place where a persons ancestor
came from!
Now, in the case Goethe you are right that he was ennobled.
Therefore the von is not truly part of his name. He should be
listed as you rightly mentioned under Goethe and not von Goethe“.
It is impossible for a bibliographic system to handle this, so
there is no switch for it!
you can try to wrap thing that belong together in { } ... it might
work
So, it is up to the author of a text to set up his entries
properly, by putting the von in the right part of the name field.
indeed, not all can be catched in a poorly specified format
btw, context loads the bib data in memory and fields of type author
get split into multiple authors and each is split into parts; most
magic is under our own control so we can always add variants if
needed (maybe some prefix that indicates a german name or so) but
anyway this whole von business is on our agenda
Hans
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Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
| www.pragma-pod.nl
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