RE: OT? perspective of events
Ah, someone else who remembers the quote I prompted for last night. We are in agreement on this issue, Andrew. Carnivore, Echelon and etc. are not good for this country. -Original Message- From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 06:30 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events ~ In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. ~ To me, this is the worse thing about terrorism. We lose what we cherish, and that is freedom. And many will accept this, because they think it will be better -- but it won't. A wise man once said: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin == ASB - http://www.ultratech-llc.com/KB/?File=~MoreInfo.TXT == "A nickel isn't worth a dime today." -- Yogi Berra. >-Original Message- >From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM >To: NT System Admin Issues >Subject: OT? perspective of events > > >My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly >affected by these >cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of >us indirectly >affected. > >Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - >in recent months >there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic >snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure >we Americans >are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom >and privacy. As >IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know >if someone had >asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against >Carnivore. Today, >I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my >email looking >for suspicious activity. > >Thoughts? > >BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic >discussion, in no way >am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all >for them. Many >of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like >the off topic >discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. > http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
Title: RE: OT? perspective of events Thought you guys might like to read what my counter part in NY had to say. Thanks for the kind words Stephen. Thought many of you would find the following re-assuring: I had a hell of a time getting home last night, multiple trains, delays, walked for blocks and took a cab. My sister even flagged a guy down in the street by waving a $100 bill for a ride to Long Island. We felt like Snake Plisken in the movie "Escape from New York". Guess what? Every New Yorker on the train was in their normal NY bad mood. Everyone was still in a crazy "NY Minute" rush to get home, not because they were scared, just because they wanted to get away from the rest of the NY nut jobs. I heard three people talking about how to turn this disaster into a business proposition. Saw one young woman cry, 25 others talked about men jumping from windows as if it was no more significant that a Derek Jeter home run. We are all back at work today. We are all in a foul mood, we are all pissed off and in a hurry. But that is certainly nothing new. If they were going to pick a place to terrorize, NY was the wrong selection. Cause an avalanche of damage? Yes. Terrorize NY? Gimme a break. -Original Message- From: Jim Busick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:46 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events I think that after yesterday's events we would have to agree that nothing will be the same. One of the things that will change is how passengers perceive hijackings. Before yesterday passengers could assume that this was a "fly me to Cuba" and they had a chance of living through it. Rules have changed. A hijacking now could be a suicide mission, so unless the hijackers have very lethal weapons (read guns) there's 50 of us and 5 of them. I don't care if they are linebackers with knives, I know what I'm going to do and I think that a lot of people are going to think the same including the pilots and staff. > -Original Message- > From: Kevin Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:38 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > Give me 2 linemen in trench coats that have not shaved or > showered in a > few days. Get up tell everyone we have a bomb. That is all it would > take. NO WEAPONS NEEDED, to hyjack a plane. How do you implement > security to solve that problem? > > -Original Message- > From: Eric Brouwer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:31 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > I, for one, would be willing to trade in some conveniences, but not > freedoms. I would be totally fine with MUCH more heightened > security at > airports. Do you realize it is LEGAL to carry a knife with a 4" blade > onto a plane??? Because of people with pocket knives, my plane could > get hijacked. I don't accept that. On several occasions as > I traveled, > security did not check what I put in the little dishes as I go through > the metal detector's. I am asthmatic, and often carry an inhaler. I > could have been mace, and I could have gotten it on board. Delaying > passengers even an hour or two for every flight due to increased > security checks is not much in my mind to reduce the risk of this ever > happening again. Anywhere. > > -Original Message- > From: Lentz, Wayne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:21 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > Andrew is absolutely correct. We should not give up even > small measures > of personal freedom for security. Doing so would prove terrorism > against the US as a successful means of altering the American way of > life, and thus America itself. We as a nation cannot allow that to > happen. > > Wayne Lentz > > > -Original Message- > From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:30 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > ~ > In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans > are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom > and privacy. > ~ > > To me, this is the worse thing about terrorism. We lose what we > cherish, and that is freedom. And many will accept this, because they > think it will be better -- but it won't. > > A wise man once said: "They that can give up essential liberty to > obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty
RE: OT? perspective of events
I think that after yesterday's events we would have to agree that nothing will be the same. One of the things that will change is how passengers perceive hijackings. Before yesterday passengers could assume that this was a "fly me to Cuba" and they had a chance of living through it. Rules have changed. A hijacking now could be a suicide mission, so unless the hijackers have very lethal weapons (read guns) there's 50 of us and 5 of them. I don't care if they are linebackers with knives, I know what I'm going to do and I think that a lot of people are going to think the same including the pilots and staff. > -Original Message- > From: Kevin Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:38 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > Give me 2 linemen in trench coats that have not shaved or > showered in a > few days. Get up tell everyone we have a bomb. That is all it would > take. NO WEAPONS NEEDED, to hyjack a plane. How do you implement > security to solve that problem? > > -Original Message- > From: Eric Brouwer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:31 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > I, for one, would be willing to trade in some conveniences, but not > freedoms. I would be totally fine with MUCH more heightened > security at > airports. Do you realize it is LEGAL to carry a knife with a 4" blade > onto a plane??? Because of people with pocket knives, my plane could > get hijacked. I don't accept that. On several occasions as > I traveled, > security did not check what I put in the little dishes as I go through > the metal detector's. I am asthmatic, and often carry an inhaler. I > could have been mace, and I could have gotten it on board. Delaying > passengers even an hour or two for every flight due to increased > security checks is not much in my mind to reduce the risk of this ever > happening again. Anywhere. > > -Original Message- > From: Lentz, Wayne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:21 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > Andrew is absolutely correct. We should not give up even > small measures > of personal freedom for security. Doing so would prove terrorism > against the US as a successful means of altering the American way of > life, and thus America itself. We as a nation cannot allow that to > happen. > > Wayne Lentz > > > -Original Message- > From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:30 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > ~ > In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans > are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom > and privacy. > ~ > > To me, this is the worse thing about terrorism. We lose what we > cherish, and that is freedom. And many will accept this, because they > think it will be better -- but it won't. > > A wise man once said: "They that can give up essential liberty to > obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor > safety." -- > Benjamin Franklin > > > == > ASB - http://www.ultratech-llc.com/KB/?File=~MoreInfo.TXT > == > "A nickel isn't worth a dime today." -- Yogi Berra. > > > > > >-Original Message- > >From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > >Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM > >To: NT System Admin Issues > >Subject: OT? perspective of events > > > > > >My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly affected by > >these cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of > >us indirectly > >affected. > > > >Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - > >in recent months > >there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's > electronic > >snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure we > >Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom > >and privacy. As > >IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know > >if someone had > >asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against > >Carnivore. Today, > >I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" s
RE: OT? perspective of events
Exactly. Much like in IT, no practical level of security measures will provide complete safety. What happens when we allow even small intrusions into our freedom is that those measure quickly become ineffective, requiring another, deeper intrusion. Over time our freedom is reduced to nil, and the populace is still under threat of attack. Pat-downs at an airport wont detect porcelain switchblades that can be hidden in the colon. Eric, would you like a full body cavity search before boarding a commercial airliner, or a subway terminal, or a restaurant? The answer is not to relinquish our freedoms, though I imagine that is what will happen. -Original Message- From: Kevin Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:38 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events Give me 2 linemen in trench coats that have not shaved or showered in a few days. Get up tell everyone we have a bomb. That is all it would take. NO WEAPONS NEEDED, to hyjack a plane. How do you implement security to solve that problem? -Original Message- From: Eric Brouwer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:31 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events I, for one, would be willing to trade in some conveniences, but not freedoms. I would be totally fine with MUCH more heightened security at airports. Do you realize it is LEGAL to carry a knife with a 4" blade onto a plane??? Because of people with pocket knives, my plane could get hijacked. I don't accept that. On several occasions as I traveled, security did not check what I put in the little dishes as I go through the metal detector's. I am asthmatic, and often carry an inhaler. I could have been mace, and I could have gotten it on board. Delaying passengers even an hour or two for every flight due to increased security checks is not much in my mind to reduce the risk of this ever happening again. Anywhere. -Original Message- From: Lentz, Wayne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:21 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events Andrew is absolutely correct. We should not give up even small measures of personal freedom for security. Doing so would prove terrorism against the US as a successful means of altering the American way of life, and thus America itself. We as a nation cannot allow that to happen. Wayne Lentz -Original Message- From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:30 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events ~ In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. ~ To me, this is the worse thing about terrorism. We lose what we cherish, and that is freedom. And many will accept this, because they think it will be better -- but it won't. A wise man once said: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin == ASB - http://www.ultratech-llc.com/KB/?File=~MoreInfo.TXT == "A nickel isn't worth a dime today." -- Yogi Berra. >-Original Message- >From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM >To: NT System Admin Issues >Subject: OT? perspective of events > > >My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly affected by >these cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of >us indirectly >affected. > >Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - >in recent months >there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic >snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure we >Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom >and privacy. As >IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know >if someone had >asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against >Carnivore. Today, >I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my >email looking >for suspicious activity. > >Thoughts? > >BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic discussion, in >no way am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all >for them. Many >of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like >the off topic >discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. > http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
Give me 2 linemen in trench coats that have not shaved or showered in a few days. Get up tell everyone we have a bomb. That is all it would take. NO WEAPONS NEEDED, to hyjack a plane. How do you implement security to solve that problem? -Original Message- From: Eric Brouwer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:31 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events I, for one, would be willing to trade in some conveniences, but not freedoms. I would be totally fine with MUCH more heightened security at airports. Do you realize it is LEGAL to carry a knife with a 4" blade onto a plane??? Because of people with pocket knives, my plane could get hijacked. I don't accept that. On several occasions as I traveled, security did not check what I put in the little dishes as I go through the metal detector's. I am asthmatic, and often carry an inhaler. I could have been mace, and I could have gotten it on board. Delaying passengers even an hour or two for every flight due to increased security checks is not much in my mind to reduce the risk of this ever happening again. Anywhere. -Original Message- From: Lentz, Wayne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:21 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events Andrew is absolutely correct. We should not give up even small measures of personal freedom for security. Doing so would prove terrorism against the US as a successful means of altering the American way of life, and thus America itself. We as a nation cannot allow that to happen. Wayne Lentz -Original Message- From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:30 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events ~ In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. ~ To me, this is the worse thing about terrorism. We lose what we cherish, and that is freedom. And many will accept this, because they think it will be better -- but it won't. A wise man once said: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin == ASB - http://www.ultratech-llc.com/KB/?File=~MoreInfo.TXT == "A nickel isn't worth a dime today." -- Yogi Berra. >-Original Message- >From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM >To: NT System Admin Issues >Subject: OT? perspective of events > > >My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly affected by >these cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of >us indirectly >affected. > >Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - >in recent months >there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic >snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure we >Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom >and privacy. As >IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know >if someone had >asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against >Carnivore. Today, >I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my >email looking >for suspicious activity. > >Thoughts? > >BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic discussion, in >no way am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all >for them. Many >of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like >the off topic >discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. > http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
I, for one, would be willing to trade in some conveniences, but not freedoms. I would be totally fine with MUCH more heightened security at airports. Do you realize it is LEGAL to carry a knife with a 4" blade onto a plane??? Because of people with pocket knives, my plane could get hijacked. I don't accept that. On several occasions as I traveled, security did not check what I put in the little dishes as I go through the metal detector's. I am asthmatic, and often carry an inhaler. I could have been mace, and I could have gotten it on board. Delaying passengers even an hour or two for every flight due to increased security checks is not much in my mind to reduce the risk of this ever happening again. Anywhere. -Original Message- From: Lentz, Wayne [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:21 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events Andrew is absolutely correct. We should not give up even small measures of personal freedom for security. Doing so would prove terrorism against the US as a successful means of altering the American way of life, and thus America itself. We as a nation cannot allow that to happen. Wayne Lentz -Original Message- From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:30 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events ~ In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. ~ To me, this is the worse thing about terrorism. We lose what we cherish, and that is freedom. And many will accept this, because they think it will be better -- but it won't. A wise man once said: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin == ASB - http://www.ultratech-llc.com/KB/?File=~MoreInfo.TXT == "A nickel isn't worth a dime today." -- Yogi Berra. >-Original Message- >From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM >To: NT System Admin Issues >Subject: OT? perspective of events > > >My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly >affected by these >cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of >us indirectly >affected. > >Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - >in recent months >there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic >snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure >we Americans >are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom >and privacy. As >IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know >if someone had >asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against >Carnivore. Today, >I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my >email looking >for suspicious activity. > >Thoughts? > >BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic >discussion, in no way >am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all >for them. Many >of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like >the off topic >discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. > http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
Andrew is absolutely correct. We should not give up even small measures of personal freedom for security. Doing so would prove terrorism against the US as a successful means of altering the American way of life, and thus America itself. We as a nation cannot allow that to happen. Wayne Lentz -Original Message- From: Andrew S. Baker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:30 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events ~ In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. ~ To me, this is the worse thing about terrorism. We lose what we cherish, and that is freedom. And many will accept this, because they think it will be better -- but it won't. A wise man once said: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin == ASB - http://www.ultratech-llc.com/KB/?File=~MoreInfo.TXT == "A nickel isn't worth a dime today." -- Yogi Berra. >-Original Message- >From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM >To: NT System Admin Issues >Subject: OT? perspective of events > > >My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly >affected by these >cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of >us indirectly >affected. > >Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - >in recent months >there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic >snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure >we Americans >are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom >and privacy. As >IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know >if someone had >asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against >Carnivore. Today, >I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my >email looking >for suspicious activity. > >Thoughts? > >BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic >discussion, in no way >am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all >for them. Many >of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like >the off topic >discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. > http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
There are a number of problems you leave out. First, I have sniffed a switched network before and it is not that hard. You need only overflow a switch with more bogus MAC addresses than it can handle and suddenly you have a hub. Even without any effort my snort box picks up loads of traffic it "shouldn't" behind two switches. You can probably assume you are safe from sniffing behind a router, unless there is a compromised box behind it with you. Second, you may have plenty to be afraid of. If someone sends you an html mail with a linked image from a child porn site, by having it open by accident in a preview window you could suddenly be catogorized as a child porn viewer by some automatic tool. I have had several very disturbed and concerned users contact me about incidents like this with html mail. I have no worries about reactions to this tragedy as I beleive that the vast majority of indivuals have good intentions even if their actions aren't perfect. What I worry about are overreactions. I woke up today much angrier than I was yesterday and I can think of some pretty horrible overreactions that I might be willing to support in the aftermath of the attacks. One can only hope that the leaders of my country and others have a better handle on their emotions than the general population. jbh > -Original Message- > From: Luke Brumbaugh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:29 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > I read about this. It's a NT box running a kinda "Sniffer" software. > I have used sniffer, the log gets incredibly big in a short > period of time. > So, the idea of scanning an ip address or email header for > certain patterns > would only be possible. > Wiretaps are common, but you can only monitor so many phones > at a time. > Same here with email and this Carnivore black box. So you > ask yourself, are > you doing something to be afraid of? > If not, then why worry, sniffer doesn't work well on switched > networks and > as for internet, only terrorist and child pornographers have > something to > worry about. > > > -Original Message- > From: Benjamin Winzenz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:51 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events > > > I don't know how I feel about stuff like that yet. I think > some of it may > be warranted (we already know that any phone conversation > basically can be > recorded based on a myriad of words that are said). I think > that the same > type of thing monitoring e-mail would not be noticed by most. I think > though, that if we were all told the extent of "spying" that > the FBI already > does, legally or illegally, we probably would be shocked. I > almost think > that things like that are better off kept silent. "what the > people don't > know won't hurt them" type of attitude. It's gonna get > really interesting > for a while here. As someone else said, we are in for a bit > of a bumpy > ride. > > As a side note, although I was not directly affected by the > horrible acts > that took place yesterday (no relatives), we will all be > affected by this > dastardly deed for a long time to come. My heart goes out to > those who have > experienced a loss. Even today, I still am in shock at what > happened. At > the same time, let us pray that our leaders make informed and > wise decisions > in the aftermath of what has happened. > > Ben Winzenz, MCSE > Network/Systems Administrator > Peregrine Systems, Inc. > > -Original Message- > From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM > To: NT System Admin Issues > Subject: OT? perspective of events > > My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly > affected by these > cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of us > indirectly > affected. > > Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - > in recent months > there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic > snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure > we Americans > are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and > privacy. As > IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know > if someone had > asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against > Carnivore. Today, > I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my > email looking > for suspicious activity. > > Thoughts? >
RE: OT? perspective of events
First of all I would like to express my heartfelt sadness for those who lost friends, family and collegues to this disaster. May it be a reminder to all Americans and other democratic countries around the world that there is a REAL threat to freedom and capitolism, and the need for a strong military presence is necessary, for no other reason that to be used as a deterrant for such activity in the future. May we also not forget the loss of military personel in the Pentagon, who by the nature of thier job put themselves at risk everyday to defend us against these kinds of threats. While they may not have been able to forsee this attack, who can know how many countless attempts were foiled by our intelligence agencies. May we all stand united behind our president and country to see us through such a horrible and devistating tragedy. While everybody agrees that some sort of response is warranted, let us not forget that part of the responsibility of being the only superpower in the world carries the burden of not responding in the same cowardly fashon. We need to have a swift and deliberate response to this, but also be sure that those who are targeted are those who are responsible. America has to display discipline in this kind of situatuion not a knee jerk reaction that would reflect the acts of a 3 year old having a tantrom. As for mail sniffing I am in total opposition to this kind of technology to be in use. This steps on the very fringes that makes this country free. The thing that worries me the most is the ramifications of such systems being in use, it could easily be turned against us if they were to fall into the wrong hands. It "could" also lead to unwarranted harrassment for those that are undeserving. Just as in military operations, I'm sure that if email was used as a tool for communications to coordinate something like what happened yesterday, I'd bet that cryptic messages were sent between parties that were involved so that even if there were a method in place to ping on key words, that kind of traffic would probably never be caught. I would also suspect that even if messages were intercepted, the amount of time and resources necessary to read them, figure out if it's real or not and then react on it will most likely be to late. No matter how you look at this those who are determined to do things as we all witnessed yesterday will stop at nothing. It is very difficult to defend against that kind of determination, especially when the idea is to take as many lives a possible as a result. One other note.. Gas prices here have remained stable, 1.30 for 87 1.41 for 89 1.52 for 93 May God console those in thier loss and bless this country as we deal with this tragic course of events. Admist all this devistation and destruction is was nice to see those out there helping each other where they can. John -Original Message- From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: OT? perspective of events My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly affected by these cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of us indirectly affected. Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - in recent months there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. As IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know if someone had asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against Carnivore. Today, I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my email looking for suspicious activity. Thoughts? BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic discussion, in no way am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all for them. Many of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like the off topic discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
I read about this. It's a NT box running a kinda "Sniffer" software. I have used sniffer, the log gets incredibly big in a short period of time. So, the idea of scanning an ip address or email header for certain patterns would only be possible. Wiretaps are common, but you can only monitor so many phones at a time. Same here with email and this Carnivore black box. So you ask yourself, are you doing something to be afraid of? If not, then why worry, sniffer doesn't work well on switched networks and as for internet, only terrorist and child pornographers have something to worry about. -Original Message- From: Benjamin Winzenz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:51 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events I don't know how I feel about stuff like that yet. I think some of it may be warranted (we already know that any phone conversation basically can be recorded based on a myriad of words that are said). I think that the same type of thing monitoring e-mail would not be noticed by most. I think though, that if we were all told the extent of "spying" that the FBI already does, legally or illegally, we probably would be shocked. I almost think that things like that are better off kept silent. "what the people don't know won't hurt them" type of attitude. It's gonna get really interesting for a while here. As someone else said, we are in for a bit of a bumpy ride. As a side note, although I was not directly affected by the horrible acts that took place yesterday (no relatives), we will all be affected by this dastardly deed for a long time to come. My heart goes out to those who have experienced a loss. Even today, I still am in shock at what happened. At the same time, let us pray that our leaders make informed and wise decisions in the aftermath of what has happened. Ben Winzenz, MCSE Network/Systems Administrator Peregrine Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject:OT? perspective of events My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly affected by these cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of us indirectly affected. Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - in recent months there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. As IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know if someone had asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against Carnivore. Today, I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my email looking for suspicious activity. Thoughts? BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic discussion, in no way am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all for them. Many of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like the off topic discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm Enterprise Channel Management Software for Manufacturers Visit us at http://www.ultryx.com http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
Title: RE: OT? perspective of events There's another item on The Register which puts the whole event into it's proper "international" perspective http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21615.html -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2001 14:59To: NT System Admin IssuesSubject: RE: OT? perspective of events FYI. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/21516.html Echelon exists and is in use http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21626.html FBI using Carnivore listening boxes on the net. -Original Message- From: Benjamin Winzenz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 12 September 2001 14:51 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events I don't know how I feel about stuff like that yet. I think some of it may be warranted (we already know that any phone conversation basically can be recorded based on a myriad of words that are said). I think that the same type of thing monitoring e-mail would not be noticed by most. I think though, that if we were all told the extent of "spying" that the FBI already does, legally or illegally, we probably would be shocked. I almost think that things like that are better off kept silent. "what the people don't know won't hurt them" type of attitude. It's gonna get really interesting for a while here. As someone else said, we are in for a bit of a bumpy ride. As a side note, although I was not directly affected by the horrible acts that took place yesterday (no relatives), we will all be affected by this dastardly deed for a long time to come. My heart goes out to those who have experienced a loss. Even today, I still am in shock at what happened. At the same time, let us pray that our leaders make informed and wise decisions in the aftermath of what has happened. Ben Winzenz, MCSE Network/Systems Administrator Peregrine Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: OT? perspective of events My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly affected by these cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of us indirectly affected. Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - in recent months there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. As IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know if someone had asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against Carnivore. Today, I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my email looking for suspicious activity. Thoughts? BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic discussion, in no way am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all for them. Many of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like the off topic discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and delete this E-mail from your system. Thank you.It is possible for data transmitted by email to be deliberately oraccidentally corrupted or intercepted. For this reason, where thecommunication is by email, the Bank of Ireland Group does not accept any responsibility for any breach of confidence which may arise through the use of this medium.This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of known computer viruses.http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm * If you receive this e-mail in error, please contact +44 20 7280 5500. The information contained in this e-mail and in the attachments if any, is confidential. Unauthorised use, disclosure, printing, forwarding or copying is strictly prohibited. * http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
Title: RE: OT? perspective of events FYI. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/21516.html Echelon exists and is in use http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21626.html FBI using Carnivore listening boxes on the net. -Original Message- From: Benjamin Winzenz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 12 September 2001 14:51 To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: RE: OT? perspective of events I don't know how I feel about stuff like that yet. I think some of it may be warranted (we already know that any phone conversation basically can be recorded based on a myriad of words that are said). I think that the same type of thing monitoring e-mail would not be noticed by most. I think though, that if we were all told the extent of "spying" that the FBI already does, legally or illegally, we probably would be shocked. I almost think that things like that are better off kept silent. "what the people don't know won't hurt them" type of attitude. It's gonna get really interesting for a while here. As someone else said, we are in for a bit of a bumpy ride. As a side note, although I was not directly affected by the horrible acts that took place yesterday (no relatives), we will all be affected by this dastardly deed for a long time to come. My heart goes out to those who have experienced a loss. Even today, I still am in shock at what happened. At the same time, let us pray that our leaders make informed and wise decisions in the aftermath of what has happened. Ben Winzenz, MCSE Network/Systems Administrator Peregrine Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject: OT? perspective of events My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly affected by these cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of us indirectly affected. Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - in recent months there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. As IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know if someone had asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against Carnivore. Today, I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my email looking for suspicious activity. Thoughts? BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic discussion, in no way am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all for them. Many of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like the off topic discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify us immediately at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and delete this E-mail from your system. Thank you. It is possible for data transmitted by email to be deliberately or accidentally corrupted or intercepted. For this reason, where the communication is by email, the Bank of Ireland Group does not accept any responsibility for any breach of confidence which may arise through the use of this medium. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of known computer viruses. http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
I don't know how I feel about stuff like that yet. I think some of it may be warranted (we already know that any phone conversation basically can be recorded based on a myriad of words that are said). I think that the same type of thing monitoring e-mail would not be noticed by most. I think though, that if we were all told the extent of "spying" that the FBI already does, legally or illegally, we probably would be shocked. I almost think that things like that are better off kept silent. "what the people don't know won't hurt them" type of attitude. It's gonna get really interesting for a while here. As someone else said, we are in for a bit of a bumpy ride. As a side note, although I was not directly affected by the horrible acts that took place yesterday (no relatives), we will all be affected by this dastardly deed for a long time to come. My heart goes out to those who have experienced a loss. Even today, I still am in shock at what happened. At the same time, let us pray that our leaders make informed and wise decisions in the aftermath of what has happened. Ben Winzenz, MCSE Network/Systems Administrator Peregrine Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM To: NT System Admin Issues Subject:OT? perspective of events My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly affected by these cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of us indirectly affected. Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - in recent months there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. As IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know if someone had asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against Carnivore. Today, I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my email looking for suspicious activity. Thoughts? BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic discussion, in no way am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all for them. Many of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like the off topic discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
Re: OT? perspective of events
Well, Carnivore is for "known" addresses -it doesn't just snoop all communications. Echelon, which has been in place for quite a while, originally for phone conversations, is the one that will listen for certain words, and flag them. Whether or not they are using Echelon (which is constantly said to "not exist", the British Parliment just had a vote on whether or not to keep denying its existance) in conjunction with Carnivore, I do not know. K.Borndale [EMAIL PROTECTED] -home email - Original Message - From: Kevin Lundy To: NT System Admin Issues Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:13 AM Subject: OT? perspective of events My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly affected by thesecowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of us indirectlyaffected.Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - in recent monthsthere has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronicsnooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americansare going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. AsIT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know if someone hadasked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against Carnivore. Today,I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my email lookingfor suspicious activity.Thoughts?BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic discussion, in no wayam I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all for them. Manyof our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like the off topicdiscussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule.http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
RE: OT? perspective of events
~ In order to increase our security, I'm sure we Americans are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom and privacy. ~ To me, this is the worse thing about terrorism. We lose what we cherish, and that is freedom. And many will accept this, because they think it will be better -- but it won't. A wise man once said: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin == ASB - http://www.ultratech-llc.com/KB/?File=~MoreInfo.TXT == "A nickel isn't worth a dime today." -- Yogi Berra. >-Original Message- >From: Kevin Lundy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] >Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:14 AM >To: NT System Admin Issues >Subject: OT? perspective of events > > >My sympathies and thoughts go out to everyone directly >affected by these >cowardly acts. My thoughts also go out to the millions of >us indirectly >affected. > >Now to bring a slightly on-topic slant to the discussions - >in recent months >there has been considerable debate on Carnivore (the FBI's electronic >snooping tool). In order to increase our security, I'm sure >we Americans >are going to have to give up some of our personal freedom >and privacy. As >IT pro's, has anyone's opinion of Carnivore changed? I know >if someone had >asked me the question on Monday, I was adamantly against >Carnivore. Today, >I'm willing to accept some software "black-box" scanning my >email looking >for suspicious activity. > >Thoughts? > >BTW - just because I am initiating a slightly on topic >discussion, in no way >am I suggesting that that the other threads stop. I'm all >for them. Many >of our list members are in NY and DC. Those who don't like >the off topic >discussions - learn to use the delete key or setup a filter or rule. > http://www.sunbelt-software.com/ntsysadmin_list_charter.htm
