Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On 2012-09-09 22:50, Alasdair Lumsden wrote: A lot of the talk you've seen on the oi-dev mailing list regarding changing the default shell, splitting off /usr or switching to Schillix is coming from the peanut gallery of people who like to provide their opinions on things but who have never actually contributed to the project. No offense taken ;) As for the things I wrote about (i.e. splitting the root fs into components), these are things I did myself with OI and OpenSolaris before that and with older Solarises way before that (when it was customary to have many filesystems for core OS components). This does have certain benefits in exchange for certain complications. Yes, some people are better at having an erudition and common sense, others are better in the coding role. None is fundamentally better, these are just different proficiencies (thoughtlessly coding something useless is about as bad as having no coding in a software project at all - so two different heads are better than one). Some people can change roles depending on amount of coffee and recency of the last sleep, but I was like that too long ago ;) So, as far as a peanut gallery goes, I truly did not provide much code - and I'm not a specialist in that part. I did provide some improvements to project documentation, some bug reports and ideas. I thought that did count as contributions to project in general... Like many other things I wrote on the OI and Illumos wikis, I did document the procedure (although I agree that a cleaner rewrite is due, I went over this while setting up my laptop and did find my own text counter-intuitive at times). Unfortunately, trying to earn money while raising a baby leaves little time for volunteer work - but I still hope to code/script and integrate the changes needed to support the split rootfs if anyone desires to use that on their systems. I'd be just as happy to help if someone else takes to implement this and other improvements I propose in vast numbers ;) As for default /sbin/sh shell, this was only a practical matter for my project. KSH did not work (has too many dependencies into /usr space), changing /sbin/sh to BASH did not break anything and allowed my project to work. I'm happy to use a static-built KSH just for the sake of not changing the OI ecosystem, if anyone or myself ever compiles a static KSH binary and RTIs that into illumos-gate, oi-build or somesuch. So let's say I'm a typical community member with an opinion what he wants to do with his desktop/server OS, preferably without applying homebrewn patches to each installation to make them subjectively perfect - but upstreaming them into the common distribution and having a choice out of the box. That I am looking forward to doing. //Jim Klimov ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On 06/09/2012 20:27, Ken Gunderson wrote: As for Alasdair having resigned as project lead, I would politely ask if we could prevail upon him to re-don his lead hat for this one last action. Why? In short; I feel he, likely more than anyone, has the community's trust. Hi Ken, Sure I don't mind providing some input on this... I think OI is a member of the illumos family and I'd be more than happy for the illumos foundation to take donations on our behalf, as long as it's earmarked for OI use specifically. If someone wants to donate to OI rather than illumos, it makes sense for it to be ringfenced. (Otherwise they'd just donate to illumos). It may be worth illumos setting up some kind of method of taking donations via something like PayPal. The illumos website could let people donate to illumos, and the OpenIndiana website could let people donate to OpenIndiana (but via the same facility), with some way of differentiating between the payments so they can be earmarked for illumos-general or OpenIndiana (or other projects that live within the illumosphere). Does that make sense? Or is that too complicated? I also am happy for it to take a cut of the donations for administrative overheads, as long as it's not too excessive. Obviously there is work involved in maintaining the foundation. Cheers, Alasdair ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On 07/09/2012 06:07, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: There have been technical disagreements, and I've pointed out that there has been in the past what I think represents a lack of clear vision for OI. But that's *my* opinion, and I don't speak for illumos in this regard. (Nor can I -- or anyone else -- illumos is moving towards a mutual benefit corporation that would preclude a single person dictating the position of illumos.) I'm sorry if our vision wasn't communicated properly. When OI started, Oracle were still publishing all the source to OpenSolaris including ONNV. OI was started to provide binary builds of that so that those of us using OpenSolaris could continue to do so. This made us equivalent to the CentOS-RedHat relationship. Then Oracle closed the gate and illumos took on a life of its own, and soon after OpenIndiana abandoned any notions of being a clone of Solaris 11. The new vision that arose from this was very much about being the leading *community* developed illumos based general purpose operating system. Basically what Debian is to the Linux world. I hope that's clear. However I think OI and illumos have been fairly symbiotic -- indeed OI still builds upon the illumos base, and at the moment OI is the de-facto reference distribution of illumos. However, if OI is considering a different base -- say SchilliX -- then that would probably represent a significant rift. (I have some concerns about the topics of conversation on oi-dev of late; decisions to for example change the shell or filesystem layout can have broad ramifications. While a distro can choose to do as it wants, if there is that much difference between the base and the distro, then it will be much harder for the base developers to continue to use the distro as a reference.) The relationship has been entirely symbiotic and I don't think we've really had that many disagreements, perhaps only some tension at the beginning. OI was always understaffed and it took a lot of time and effort for the volunteers to get up to speed on how everything worked. A lot of the talk you've seen on the oi-dev mailing list regarding changing the default shell, splitting off /usr or switching to Schillix is coming from the peanut gallery of people who like to provide their opinions on things but who have never actually contributed to the project. We have no intention of moving away from illumos-gate nor making any major changes. I also want to RTI all the non-branding related changes in our illumos-gate fork - we only maintain it because none of us have had time to RTI stuff. Cheers, Alasdair ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
That doesn't sound too complicated. I should be able to set up a PayPal account for the Foundation and enable setting categories or at least putting notes on donations. The illumos Foundation does have a bank account, so far I'm the only person with access to it but I expect to add more eg board members. The Foundation is required by law to provide an annual report and accounting of some sort, so you'll be able to see that I'm not using the funds to go to Tahiti. ;-) At the moment, the account contains a grand total of $20 which I had to put in there to keep it open! If the illumos Foundation actually gets a significant amount of funding, it's possible/likely that a full-time exec director would be hired to take on all this. For the moment, I'm doing it as part of the job that Joyent pays me to do. On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Alasdair Lumsden alasdai...@gmail.comwrote: On 06/09/2012 20:27, Ken Gunderson wrote: As for Alasdair having resigned as project lead, I would politely ask if we could prevail upon him to re-don his lead hat for this one last action. Why? In short; I feel he, likely more than anyone, has the community's trust. Hi Ken, Sure I don't mind providing some input on this... I think OI is a member of the illumos family and I'd be more than happy for the illumos foundation to take donations on our behalf, as long as it's earmarked for OI use specifically. If someone wants to donate to OI rather than illumos, it makes sense for it to be ringfenced. (Otherwise they'd just donate to illumos). It may be worth illumos setting up some kind of method of taking donations via something like PayPal. The illumos website could let people donate to illumos, and the OpenIndiana website could let people donate to OpenIndiana (but via the same facility), with some way of differentiating between the payments so they can be earmarked for illumos-general or OpenIndiana (or other projects that live within the illumosphere). Does that make sense? Or is that too complicated? I also am happy for it to take a cut of the donations for administrative overheads, as long as it's not too excessive. Obviously there is work involved in maintaining the foundation. Cheers, Alasdair __**_ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/**mailman/listinfo/oi-devhttp://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev -- best regards, Deirdré Straughan Community Architect, SmartOS illumos Community Manager cell 720 371 4107 ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On 7 September 2012 06:01, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: I have no problem with illumos handling earmarking. In the future, I'll want to take a percentage of such donations for illumos general use, but I expect it to be reasonable -- perhaps 20% or 25% - and that seems not inappropriate given that OI uses illumos as its base anyway. I am not sure about the 20% mark ... it seems high to me since OI projects could and should support the community outside of OI. I understand that for small donations this might _seem_ reasonable, and that while there is little or no governance of OI it is hard to see how this funding is spent in a sensible manner, but 20% is a large slice of any cake. I know I've already said my peace and am happy for the Illumos Foundation to take and earmark the funds (it seems by far the sanest option IMHO) and I could see a 10-15% cut straight to Illumos, I would prefer not to see it any higher than that. I would expect any projects, that OI specifically gets involved in, that affect the Illumos kernel, will benefit Illumos directly and because of this the OI ring-fenced funding will benefit Illumos too, but indirectly. As far as deciding how it gets spent outside of the earmark - I think the OI community will still need to appoint someone or a small body of people, to determine the further allocation of the earmark. That sounds like governance to me -- even if not much. +1 my first preference, as I've said, would be bounties, although as was suggested some contribution towards transport funds for specific OI dev's to Illumos events might help the bitterness in the community. Jon ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On Sep 7, 2012, at 3:14 PM, Jonathan Adams t12nsloo...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 September 2012 06:01, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: I have no problem with illumos handling earmarking. In the future, I'll want to take a percentage of such donations for illumos general use, but I expect it to be reasonable -- perhaps 20% or 25% - and that seems not inappropriate given that OI uses illumos as its base anyway. I am not sure about the 20% mark ... it seems high to me since OI projects could and should support the community outside of OI. I understand that for small donations this might _seem_ reasonable, and that while there is little or no governance of OI it is hard to see how this funding is spent in a sensible manner, but 20% is a large slice of any cake. Ultimately, I'm concerned about the health of illumos itself. We (the initial board members of the foundation) expect to spend significant amounts of money for benefit of all illumos -- including having money that can be used for projects which tend not to be commercially interesting. (For example, these funds might be used for the graphics drivers or WLAN work, etc.) I'm thinking about funds that might be spent also on things like common build and test infrastructure, expanded project hosting, etc. This stuff is *expensive*. If we only do bounties, then the project will probably die. (I've proposed to the illumos board a rough spending allocation of 30% for bounties/development, 30% for infrastructure and supporting tech, 30% for marketing, and 10% for administration overhead. (We need to hire a project admin - what would in other terms be an Executive Director for the illumos project -- this has to be a person without other commercial affiliations in the community so we really probably do need to pay someone to do this work. I don't expect it to be a lot though. :-) You need think about this in the context of large commercial sponsors. I think 20-25% is the right figure for giving back to the central organization. Think about this way: Ultimately, illumos represents greater than 20% of the effort and code base (at least the code base that is actively maintained by this community and not just incorporated verbatim). My fear is without this we could wind up with a lot of funds earmarked, but ultimately have a central organization that is financially unhealthy. That wouldn't be a good state to be in. Ultimately *right now* there is no preallocation. But when the bylaws are settled there will be an amount that will be agreed upon by the foundation board members. Of course OI is free to set up its own foundation (but this is non-trivial), and of course its possible for a sponsor to give directly (e.g. by hiring developers, etc.) But that will come without involvement of the illumos foundation. I know I've already said my peace and am happy for the Illumos Foundation to take and earmark the funds (it seems by far the sanest option IMHO) and I could see a 10-15% cut straight to Illumos, I would prefer not to see it any higher than that. Again, the illumos Board will set the percentage here. It will most likely be a percentage for all earmarks (e.g. if someone wants to give money to fund development of virtualization, then the foundation will take a cut for the general fund.) I'll pass on your concerns to the board about the sizing, although again I don't agree for the reasons I've elaborated. I would expect any projects, that OI specifically gets involved in, that affect the Illumos kernel, will benefit Illumos directly and because of this the OI ring-fenced funding will benefit Illumos too, but indirectly. Possibly very very indirectly. Its hard to see that in very much detail, since I don't know how funding will be applied within OI. I'd *recommend* that effort/money ought to be given to improving the quality and release engineering as a priority over just integrating yet more packages. But that's just my opinion. As far as deciding how it gets spent outside of the earmark - I think the OI community will still need to appoint someone or a small body of people, to determine the further allocation of the earmark. That sounds like governance to me -- even if not much. +1 my first preference, as I've said, would be bounties, although as was suggested some contribution towards transport funds for specific OI dev's to Illumos events might help the bitterness in the community. Maybe. I think there are other ways too… OI needs some unsexy tasks done -- like release engineer, QA, etc. In fact, I think these are far more urgent than just adding new packages. - Garrett Jon ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
2012-09-07 9:07, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com пишет: However I think OI and illumos have been fairly symbiotic -- indeed OI still builds upon the illumos base, and at the moment OI is the de-facto reference distribution of illumos. However, if OI is considering a different base -- say SchilliX -- then that would probably represent a significant rift. (I have some concerns about the topics of conversation on oi-dev of late; decisions to for example change the shell or filesystem layout can have broad ramifications. While a distro can choose to do as it wants, if there is that much difference between the base and the distro, then it will be much harder for the base developers to continue to use the distro as a reference.) I do also think that the assumptions about symbiotic and reference distro are valid as of now and before now. As long as this remains in place, I think it would be correct to leave the bureaucratic burden (and cost) minimized to the required number of entities - i.e. one in the person of illumos Foundation. Increasing the inproductive workload is the last thing we need now ;) As for shell changes, I believe this may refer to my suggestion about hierarchical root filesystem and the presence of a /sbin/sh within the root filesystem (not as a link to ../usr/bin/ksh). If that is the case, I believe a static compile of ksh may suffice for that task (ability to mount and use rootfs while /usr is not yet mounted) and would be completely compatible with current distro. I did not have such binary at hand, and the one in /usr/bin was linked to many libraries, so I tried to use bash and this incurred no errors that I'd have noted and needed no extra workarounds. I also did try old bourne shell from SXCE, but this did have some functional downsides with OI (although that binary is IIRC tangibly more compact on disk and in RAM and just as such serves as a better system shell; doesn't have to be the every user's interactive one). HTH, //Jim Klimov ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
The exact percentage of any earmarked funds to be withheld for a general fund should be discussed by the illumos Foundation board, probably after the board is expanded sometime in the near-ish future. There's no agreed guideline on this at present. On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:14 AM, Jonathan Adams t12nsloo...@gmail.comwrote: On 7 September 2012 06:01, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: I have no problem with illumos handling earmarking. In the future, I'll want to take a percentage of such donations for illumos general use, but I expect it to be reasonable -- perhaps 20% or 25% - and that seems not inappropriate given that OI uses illumos as its base anyway. I am not sure about the 20% mark ... it seems high to me since OI projects could and should support the community outside of OI. I understand that for small donations this might _seem_ reasonable, and that while there is little or no governance of OI it is hard to see how this funding is spent in a sensible manner, but 20% is a large slice of any cake. I know I've already said my peace and am happy for the Illumos Foundation to take and earmark the funds (it seems by far the sanest option IMHO) and I could see a 10-15% cut straight to Illumos, I would prefer not to see it any higher than that. I would expect any projects, that OI specifically gets involved in, that affect the Illumos kernel, will benefit Illumos directly and because of this the OI ring-fenced funding will benefit Illumos too, but indirectly. As far as deciding how it gets spent outside of the earmark - I think the OI community will still need to appoint someone or a small body of people, to determine the further allocation of the earmark. That sounds like governance to me -- even if not much. +1 my first preference, as I've said, would be bounties, although as was suggested some contribution towards transport funds for specific OI dev's to Illumos events might help the bitterness in the community. Jon ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev -- best regards, Deirdré Straughan Community Architect, SmartOS illumos Community Manager cell 720 371 4107 ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
Any further thoughts on this, anyone? On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Garrett D'Amore garrett.dam...@dey-sys.comwrote: Originally Alasdair indicated that he wanted OI to be part of the illumos foundation, so this approach of earmarking the donation makes sense. Note that in the future I hope that illumos will reserve a percentage of earmark donations for its general fund but since we have not set up the administration to deal with that yet, it seems like right now is a great time to donate and ensure that 100% of your donation goes exactly to OI. - Garrett On Sep 5, 2012, at 8:08 PM, Jonathan Adams t12nsloo...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 September 2012 16:47, Deirdre Straughan deirdre.straug...@joyent.com wrote: snip I know that it's really none of my business, since I have yet to actually give anything except support/bugs to the community ... I think that the money being placed with the Illumos Foundation, with potential ring-fencing for OI is a sane idea. If large enough, perhaps it could be used to fund travel for an OI representative at illumos/ZFS Days in October: http://zfsday.com/ Your thoughts? I personally would prefer it to be set aside for OI specific bounties ... but anything that enables OI to have a more visible/vocal voice in the Illumos community could only be seen as a good thing. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev -- best regards, Deirdré Straughan Community Architect, SmartOS illumos Community Manager cell 720 371 4107 ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
At Thu, 6 Sep 2012 11:54:31 -0700, Deirdre Straughan wrote: Any further thoughts on this, anyone? [...] Since you asked While OI and Illumos should retain and nurture a collaborative relationship, I also think OI should foster and maintain it's own independence, as imho Illumos and Nexenta have not always acted in OI's best interest. Hence, my vote would be for OI to form it's own foundation. Whether this can be accomplished in a time frame suitable for the donation referenced is another matter. I think having some clue as to rough figures would help here, and if not too large amount I would vote for it just to handed over to Alasdair and let him handle it as best he sees fit until an appropriate legal entity could be established. Heck, setting up such may well be the best use of said funds. As for Alasdair having resigned as project lead, I would politely ask if we could prevail upon him to re-don his lead hat for this one last action. Why? In short; I feel he, likely more than anyone, has the community's trust. Regards-- Ken ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 13:27:02 -0600, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: While OI and Illumos should retain and nurture a collaborative relationship, I also think OI should foster and maintain it's own independence, as imho Illumos and Nexenta have not always acted in OI's best interest. Hence, my vote would be for OI to form it's own foundation. The gift could be used to establish a foundation. This comes back around to that word that so many people don't like, though: governance. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
At Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:31:21 -0400, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 13:27:02 -0600, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: While OI and Illumos should retain and nurture a collaborative relationship, I also think OI should foster and maintain it's own independence, as imho Illumos and Nexenta have not always acted in OI's best interest. Hence, my vote would be for OI to form it's own foundation. The gift could be used to establish a foundation. This comes back around to that word that so many people don't like, though: governance. The foundation doesn't necessarily need to govern anything. Indeed, my preference is that it would not. Rather it just needs to be a shell legal entity that can deal with legalities such as banking and copyright type stuff. The community at large can still direct/weigh in on decisions w/o a whole lot of change from how things are handled presently. Regards-- Ken ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
At Thu, 06 Sep 2012 15:57:13 -0400, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 13:54:02 -0600, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: The foundation doesn't necessarily need to govern anything. Indeed, my preference is that it would not. Rather it just needs to be a shell legal entity that can deal with legalities such as banking and copyright type stuff. The community at large can still direct/weigh in on decisions w/o a whole lot of change from how things are handled presently. That's the thing, though; there is no such thing as an ungoverned shell corporation (at least in the US). You must, in order to be able to accept definitions, have articles of incorporation, trustees, something like a board of directors, regular board meetings, financial statements, etc. You can't just file a piece of paper once and forget about it. The fine details of all of this stuff are somewhat malleable but there very much needs to be governance in place to establish, and maintain, a not-for-profit entity. Doesn't need to be a C corp. Keep it simple. Maybe an LLC or S corp? I think all that is needed is a secretary and president. Heck, I think for an S Corp they can even be one in the same. Need to refresh my memory, but I think you can get away with a single annual meeting. I've participated in ones for the family business around the x-mas holidays and we talk mostly about craft beer because there's not much more that really needs to be discussed. You just need to document that you had one and who was there. Maybe a different story is you're a multi-million dollar C Corp. But OI is not so there's not a need to make much ado about nothing. KISS. My $0.02. I'm not a lawyer and you get what you pay for... Ciao-- Ken ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:15:48 -0600, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: Doesn't need to be a C corp. Keep it simple. Maybe an LLC or S corp? Not if you want to accept tax-deductible donations. The cliff's notes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c) A 501(c)(3) may or may not be the right way to go. It's the kind of corporation that is attractive for people and corporations (and other Foundations, potentially) to make tax-deductible donations to. But there are responsibilities involved with keeping it going. -M ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
At Thu, 06 Sep 2012 16:32:41 -0400, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:15:48 -0600, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: Doesn't need to be a C corp. Keep it simple. Maybe an LLC or S corp? Not if you want to accept tax-deductible donations. The cliff's notes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c) A 501(c)(3) may or may not be the right way to go. It's the kind of corporation that is attractive for people and corporations (and other Foundations, potentially) to make tax-deductible donations to. But there are responsibilities involved with keeping it going. To be clear, I was not advocating for a 501, as I don't think that in OI's case such would qualify for tax deductible donations anyhow. What such could achieve is tax exemption for the monies taken in by the Foundation. And you're correct that such entails much administrative overhead, outside audits, etc. But we don't have to do this in the US where capitalists are so greedy Anybody somewhere else in the world have any suggestions? OTOH, I know some folks running 501's on a shoestring (1 person) so it is doable. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
I think this is alot of work for no gain. As long as the illumos foundation is willing to earmark donations for us to use (even if they want to keep a small amount to cover their expenses for doing so), and is fine with us handling our governance ourselves I see no reason to go through the trouble and cost of making a fully separate entity. This is not something that just happens, there are legal hurtles, mostly to the initial separation, but to a lesser degree ongoing in setting up to be able to accept donations and remain in compliance with the law. The Illumos Foundation has been vary generous to provide us with hosting, support, and not make any real demands on us in return. I think the best with regard to this is to continue with our existing symbiotic relationship. Andrew Hettinger http://Prominic.NET || ahettin...@prominic.net Tel: 866.339.3169 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.2888 x.110 (int'l) Fax: 866.372.3356 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.3356(int'l) mag...@yonderway.com wrote on 09/06/2012 03:32:41 PM: On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:15:48 -0600, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: Doesn't need to be a C corp. Keep it simple. Maybe an LLC or S corp? Not if you want to accept tax-deductible donations. The cliff's notes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c) A 501(c)(3) may or may not be the right way to go. It's the kind of corporation that is attractive for people and corporations (and other Foundations, potentially) to make tax-deductible donations to. But there are responsibilities involved with keeping it going. -M ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
At Thu, 6 Sep 2012 15:46:54 -0500, Andrew M. Hettinger wrote: [1 multipart/alternative (7bit)] [1.1 text/plain; US-ASCII (quoted-printable)] [1.2 text/html; US-ASCII (quoted-printable)] [...] The Illumos Foundation has been vary generous to provide us with hosting, support, and not make any real demands on us in return. I think the best with regard to this is to continue with our existing symbiotic relationship. If memory serves, EveryCity and OI initially provided hosting for Illumos?? Moreover, and I think there are others who would agree (although perhaps not publicly), that there have been instances where the relationship was less than symbiotic. Not to put too fine a point on it. But that's just my opinion. Others are certainly free to disagree. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
In fact, the establishment of the illumos Foundation has been a fair amount of work and is still in progress. It is incorporated in California as a 501(c)(6), has an initial board (Garrett, Jason Hoffman of Joyent, and Even Powell of Nexenta - we expect to expand this soon), and by-laws are in progress. All this has taken time and does cost money (you need a lawyer). For the time being and likely near to mid future, the Foundation does not have much money, but it doesn't have much in the way of costs, either. I'm acting as community manager for illumos as well as SmartOS (paid by Joyent to do both, among other tasks), and do my best to represent the interests of all impartially. All of our services and infrastructure are donated by eg ListBox and Joyent. The foundation is meant to foster the interests of core illumos and its children, and OI is assuredly part of the family. If you (collectively) would like us to handle funds for you, I'm pretty sure we can do that, though formally we need to put it to the Foundation board. I'd agree that there's not much need for governance (nor do we want much for illumos itself). You don't need me or Garrett to tell you what to do - just go do it, and let us know how we can help. On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Andrew M. Hettinger ahettin...@prominic.net wrote: I think this is alot of work for no gain. As long as the illumos foundation is willing to earmark donations for us to use (even if they want to keep a small amount to cover their expenses for doing so), and is fine with us handling our governance ourselves I see no reason to go through the trouble and cost of making a fully separate entity. This is not something that just happens, there are legal hurtles, mostly to the initial separation, but to a lesser degree ongoing in setting up to be able to accept donations and remain in compliance with the law. The Illumos Foundation has been vary generous to provide us with hosting, support, and not make any real demands on us in return. I think the best with regard to this is to continue with our existing symbiotic relationship. Andrew Hettinger http://Prominic.NET || ahettin...@prominic.net Tel: 866.339.3169 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.2888 x.110 (int'l) Fax: 866.372.3356 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.3356 (int'l) mag...@yonderway.com wrote on 09/06/2012 03:32:41 PM: On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:15:48 -0600, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: Doesn't need to be a C corp. Keep it simple. Maybe an LLC or S corp? Not if you want to accept tax-deductible donations. The cliff's notes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c) A 501(c)(3) may or may not be the right way to go. It's the kind of corporation that is attractive for people and corporations (and other Foundations, potentially) to make tax-deductible donations to. But there are responsibilities involved with keeping it going. -M ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev -- best regards, Deirdré Straughan Community Architect, SmartOS illumos Community Manager cell 720 371 4107 ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
Andrew Hettinger http://Prominic.NET || ahettin...@prominic.net Tel: 866.339.3169 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.2888 x.110 (int'l) Fax: 866.372.3356 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.3356(int'l) Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote on 09/06/2012 03:59:54 PM: Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI? At Thu, 6 Sep 2012 15:46:54 -0500, Andrew M. Hettinger wrote: [1 multipart/alternative (7bit)] [1.1 text/plain; US-ASCII (quoted-printable)] [1.2 text/html; US-ASCII (quoted-printable)] [...] yes, yes I hit the wrong button when replying. The Illumos Foundation has been vary generous to provide us with hosting, support, and not make any real demands on us in return. I think the best with regard to this is to continue with our existing symbiotic relationship. If memory serves, EveryCity and OI initially provided hosting for Illumos?? Moreover, and I think there are others who would agree (although perhaps not publicly), that there have been instances where the relationship was less than symbiotic. Not to put too fine a point on it. But that's just my opinion. Others are certainly free to disagree. If there have been any major disputes that were not resolvable in a mutually agreeable way, it is news to me. While the OI project and the Illumos project may not have always seen eye to eye on all technical matters, the Illumos Foundataion (to my knowledge) never made any move with regard to what the OI project has wanted to do. We have been given complete control with regards to our own direction. I do not forsee that changing in the near future. So, if I am mistaken please, put a fine point on it. If you have a legitimate complaint, let's get it out in the open.___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
I have no problem with illumos handling earmarking. In the future, I'll want to take a percentage of such donations for illumos general use, but I expect it to be reasonable -- perhaps 20% or 25% - and that seems not inappropriate given that OI uses illumos as its base anyway. As far as deciding how it gets spent outside of the earmark - I think the OI community will still need to appoint someone or a small body of people, to determine the further allocation of the earmark. That sounds like governance to me -- even if not much. - Garrett On Sep 7, 2012, at 2:46 AM, Andrew M. Hettinger ahettin...@prominic.net wrote: I think this is alot of work for no gain. As long as the illumos foundation is willing to earmark donations for us to use (even if they want to keep a small amount to cover their expenses for doing so), and is fine with us handling our governance ourselves I see no reason to go through the trouble and cost of making a fully separate entity. This is not something that just happens, there are legal hurtles, mostly to the initial separation, but to a lesser degree ongoing in setting up to be able to accept donations and remain in compliance with the law. The Illumos Foundation has been vary generous to provide us with hosting, support, and not make any real demands on us in return. I think the best with regard to this is to continue with our existing symbiotic relationship. Andrew Hettinger http://Prominic.NET || ahettin...@prominic.net Tel: 866.339.3169 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.2888 x.110 (int'l) Fax: 866.372.3356 (toll free) -or- +1.217.356.3356 (int'l) mag...@yonderway.com wrote on 09/06/2012 03:32:41 PM: On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:15:48 -0600, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: Doesn't need to be a C corp. Keep it simple. Maybe an LLC or S corp? Not if you want to accept tax-deductible donations. The cliff's notes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501(c) A 501(c)(3) may or may not be the right way to go. It's the kind of corporation that is attractive for people and corporations (and other Foundations, potentially) to make tax-deductible donations to. But there are responsibilities involved with keeping it going. -M ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On Sep 7, 2012, at 2:59 AM, Ken Gunderson kgund...@teamcool.net wrote: At Thu, 6 Sep 2012 15:46:54 -0500, Andrew M. Hettinger wrote: [1 multipart/alternative (7bit)] [1.1 text/plain; US-ASCII (quoted-printable)] [1.2 text/html; US-ASCII (quoted-printable)] [...] The Illumos Foundation has been vary generous to provide us with hosting, support, and not make any real demands on us in return. I think the best with regard to this is to continue with our existing symbiotic relationship. If memory serves, EveryCity and OI initially provided hosting for Illumos?? OI's bug database lives in illumos'. :-) But EC hosts OI resources, and originally offered some resources for illumos as well (we don't use them anymore though - we moved that stuff to a common infrastructure at Joyent.) Moreover, and I think there are others who would agree (although perhaps not publicly), that there have been instances where the relationship was less than symbiotic. Not to put too fine a point on it. There have been technical disagreements, and I've pointed out that there has been in the past what I think represents a lack of clear vision for OI. But that's *my* opinion, and I don't speak for illumos in this regard. (Nor can I -- or anyone else -- illumos is moving towards a mutual benefit corporation that would preclude a single person dictating the position of illumos.) However I think OI and illumos have been fairly symbiotic -- indeed OI still builds upon the illumos base, and at the moment OI is the de-facto reference distribution of illumos. However, if OI is considering a different base -- say SchilliX -- then that would probably represent a significant rift. (I have some concerns about the topics of conversation on oi-dev of late; decisions to for example change the shell or filesystem layout can have broad ramifications. While a distro can choose to do as it wants, if there is that much difference between the base and the distro, then it will be much harder for the base developers to continue to use the distro as a reference.) - Garrett But that's just my opinion. Others are certainly free to disagree. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:07 AM, garrett.dam...@dey-sys.com wrote: However I think OI and illumos have been fairly symbiotic -- indeed OI still builds upon the illumos base, and at the moment OI is the de-facto reference distribution of illumos. However, if OI is considering a different base -- say SchilliX -- then that would probably represent a significant rift. (I have some concerns about the topics of conversation on oi-dev of late; decisions to for example change the shell or filesystem layout can have broad ramifications. While a distro can choose to do as it wants, if there is that much difference between the base and the distro, then it will be much harder for the base developers to continue to use the distro as a reference.) The filesystem layout change discussion was initiated by me, because of a perceived inconsistency in the way Illumos stores binaries on disk. But Alan C has since cleared that up, and I no longer intend to pursue the idea. Instead I am now focusing my attention on pre-built (detached) zones, which would offer a true functional separation between groups of applications. As for the shell changes, I can't speak to the technical merit of that option as I haven't looked closely at that code or the problem(s) it claims to solve. I don't think anyone is going to rebase the OI distro on Schillix-ON just yet. If they did, that would create a significant rift not just between Illumos and OI but a rift within the OI community itself. - Garrett But that's just my opinion. Others are certainly free to disagree. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
[oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
I've received email from someone who wants to make a donation (of unspecified magnitude) to OpenIndiana. They contacted me as manager of the parent illumos community, but I think it right to turn the question over to the OI community. Is there any mechanism in place for taking donations? If (as I suspect) not, the best alternative I can think of is to accept the donation to the illumos Foundation (which is now a legal entity with a bank account and a board, working on by-laws), and earmark it for OI. If large enough, perhaps it could be used to fund travel for an OI representative at illumos/ZFS Days in October: http://zfsday.com/ Your thoughts? -- best regards, Deirdré Straughan Community Architect, SmartOS illumos Community Manager cell 720 371 4107 ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
On 5 September 2012 16:47, Deirdre Straughan deirdre.straug...@joyent.com wrote: snip I know that it's really none of my business, since I have yet to actually give anything except support/bugs to the community ... I think that the money being placed with the Illumos Foundation, with potential ring-fencing for OI is a sane idea. If large enough, perhaps it could be used to fund travel for an OI representative at illumos/ZFS Days in October: http://zfsday.com/ Your thoughts? I personally would prefer it to be set aside for OI specific bounties ... but anything that enables OI to have a more visible/vocal voice in the Illumos community could only be seen as a good thing. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
Re: [oi-dev] is there a vector for donating to OI?
Originally Alasdair indicated that he wanted OI to be part of the illumos foundation, so this approach of earmarking the donation makes sense. Note that in the future I hope that illumos will reserve a percentage of earmark donations for its general fund but since we have not set up the administration to deal with that yet, it seems like right now is a great time to donate and ensure that 100% of your donation goes exactly to OI. - Garrett On Sep 5, 2012, at 8:08 PM, Jonathan Adams t12nsloo...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 September 2012 16:47, Deirdre Straughan deirdre.straug...@joyent.com wrote: snip I know that it's really none of my business, since I have yet to actually give anything except support/bugs to the community ... I think that the money being placed with the Illumos Foundation, with potential ring-fencing for OI is a sane idea. If large enough, perhaps it could be used to fund travel for an OI representative at illumos/ZFS Days in October: http://zfsday.com/ Your thoughts? I personally would prefer it to be set aside for OI specific bounties ... but anything that enables OI to have a more visible/vocal voice in the Illumos community could only be seen as a good thing. ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev ___ oi-dev mailing list oi-dev@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/oi-dev
