Re: Is any one here familiar with OpenOffice?
I don't know what you guys think about it, but showing some numbers about ODF TC members contributing with the project can be useful too. Best, Jomar On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: I jest,of course. But seriously, there are some claiming that all of the OpenOffice.org project went over to LibreOffice and that the Apache has zero experience with this code base. I know this sounds crazy, but how can we best refute that statement? Here's my idea: Respond to this note and tell me how many years experience you have working with OpenOffice. This could be in any capacity, as a coder, tester, documentation, marketing, forum volunteer, whatever. Please count relevant work with related projects, such as Symphony, BSD ports, OOo4Kids, ODF, etc. as well. How many years were you doing this before the project came to Apache? If I get a good number of responses I'll put together an infographic on this. Regards, -Rob
Re: svn commit: r800828 - /websites/production/ooo-site/
Thanks Joe... Still learning how to use this thing :) Best, Jomar On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.comwrote: Little to quick on the Publish trigger. Give the build a few seconds to complete before clicking on the Publish Site link. From: homem...@apache.org homem...@apache.org To: ooo-comm...@incubator.apache.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 3:26 PM Subject: svn commit: r800828 - /websites/production/ooo-site/ Author: homembit Date: Thu Dec 22 20:26:50 2011 New Revision: 800828 Log: Small corrections on the page layout. Modified: websites/production/ooo-site/ (props changed) Propchange: websites/production/ooo-site/ -- --- svn:mergeinfo (original) +++ svn:mergeinfo Thu Dec 22 20:26:50 2011 @@ -1 +1 @@ -/websites/staging/ooo-site/trunk:797592-800824 +/websites/staging/ooo-site/trunk:797592-800826
Res: Re: svn commit: r800828 - /websites/production/ooo-site/
Thanks... It seems that it is working the way I did... Can you confirm that ? -Original Message- From: Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 12:48:29 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Cc: Joe Schaeferjoe_schae...@yahoo.com; ooo-comm...@incubator.apache.orgooo-comm...@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: svn commit: r800828 - /websites/production/ooo-site/ Jomar, I like what you are trying to do. If you are trying to copy from /index.html then you'll need to understand how the wrapping is done. Everything in the body tag from the html source is pulled out and inserted into the div id=content from the skeleton. You do not need to provide your own. HTH, Dave On Dec 22, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Jomar Silva wrote: Thanks Joe... Still learning how to use this thing :) Best, Jomar On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.comwrote: Little to quick on the Publish trigger. Give the build a few seconds to complete before clicking on the Publish Site link. From: homem...@apache.org homem...@apache.org To: ooo-comm...@incubator.apache.org Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 3:26 PM Subject: svn commit: r800828 - /websites/production/ooo-site/ Author: homembit Date: Thu Dec 22 20:26:50 2011 New Revision: 800828 Log: Small corrections on the page layout. Modified: websites/production/ooo-site/ (props changed) Propchange: websites/production/ooo-site/ -- --- svn:mergeinfo (original) +++ svn:mergeinfo Thu Dec 22 20:26:50 2011 @@ -1 +1 @@ -/websites/staging/ooo-site/trunk:797592-800824 +/websites/staging/ooo-site/trunk:797592-800826
Re: Res: Re: svn commit: r800828 - /websites/production/ooo-site/
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: Jomar, This is much better than a big BrOffice logo and link. :-) Your two http://incubator.apache.org/ links should be http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ Regards, Dave I copied the links from http://ooo-site.apache.org/, and I just saw that the Developer Mail list link there is broken... May I correct that page, linking it to the http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/ (archives of the dev list), or to the podling page, where we have all lists ?
Re: Res: Re: svn commit: r800828 - /websites/production/ooo-site/
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:29 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Dec 22, 2011, at 1:13 PM, Jomar Silva wrote: On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:01 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: Jomar, This is much better than a big BrOffice logo and link. :-) Your two http://incubator.apache.org/ links should be http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ Regards, Dave I copied the links from http://ooo-site.apache.org/, and I just saw that the Developer Mail list link there is broken... May I correct that page, linking it to the http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/ (archives of the dev list), or to the podling page, where we have all lists ? Great catch, yes please. CTR. Regards, Dave Fixed...
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On 2011/11/14 10:54 Claudio Filho filh...@gmail.com wrote: Who could have the same doubt, Jomar, but now, all was clarified. Excellent, and welcome aboard ! Jomar
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
On 2011/11/13 20:48 Claudio Filho filh...@gmail.com wrote: This is a general vision of many people, and i can talk about the old brazilian volunteers, that are following this list. And more, after a campaign here, in Brazil, about the lack of code's participation, was widespread the idea of is better don't help. No, this wasn't the message spread in Brazil. The message was clear about *solid contributions* to the project, instead of the good-and-old cheap talk that we used to have. Simon was with me on FISL were we showed the major challenges of the project at that time, explained how to contribute and also presented our shared view about the future of the project. Out of this second topic, that is a local problem, we saw this code's profile as preference and without a place for other things. If you (and the people you are claiming to represent) are really following the lists, you should be aware that non-coding activities are being discussed here too in the past months (but our major focus was on getting the repository alive, the IPR cleaning done and the first builds working). Now, with Louis bringing this questions for discussion, i believe that can be a mistake/misunderstand from us. And this thread clarifys for other people that could have the same vision. Us who ? Are you talking on behalf of someone else ? Best, Jomar
Re: What about BrOffice?
On 2011/10/28 16:43 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Is there a problem with just having a Brazilian Portuguese release of Apache OpenOffice using the name Apache OpenOffice? That would be the simplest thing to do. This is basically what I believe we should do. As Simon showed, BrOffice joined the TDF. We had to use BrOffice as the product name because OpenOffice was a registered trademark in Brazil, and AFAIK Apache OpenOffice will not have problems here. Best, Jomar
Res: Re: What about BrOffice?
Pedro, The history told in Brazil for many users is: BrOffice changed its name to LibreOffice. So, the damage is already done and we'll need to start almost from the scratch with Apache OpenOffice. If we insist to use the old BrOffice brand, probably we'll just put more noise on the market. Best, Jomar -Original Message- From: Pedro Giffuni p...@apache.org Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:59:25 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: What about BrOffice? --- Lun 28/11/11, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org ha scritto: .. - Are we (AOO) allowed to carry BrOffice branding stuff in our repository at all? Why would we want to do that? I don't know.. you brought it in ;) : http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/incubator/ooo/trunk/main/instsetoo_native/inc_broffice/ I do think we want to be Apache OpenOffice in Brazil too, despite the fact OpenOffice.org was relatively unknown there. I just wanted to be sure I can dispose of the old BrOffice logos and stuff. Is there a problem with just having a Brazilian Portuguese release of Apache OpenOffice using the name Apache OpenOffice? That would be the simplest thing to do. We will lose many users but I think they are already lost anyways. Pedro.
Res: [VOTE] Trademark and Brand
+1 for b) Apache OpenOffice Best, Jomar --Mensagem original-- De: Donald Harbison Para: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Responder a: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Assunto: [VOTE] Trademark and Brand Enviada: 10 nov, 2011 01:47 As promised, here's the ballot. Choose one, cast your vote. If none of them get more than 50% of the binding votes, we will start a ballot for the top two contenders. a) Apache OpenOffice.org b) Apache OpenOffice c) Apache Open Office d) Apache Office The ballot is open for a full 7 day week closing 12:00 p.m. EST ( UTC - 5 ) on Wednesday, November 16, 2011.
Res: Re: How to handle the native language lists?
We have some strong diferences between both languages, and in Brazil there is some cool jokes about the names used on old OpenOffice (and StarOffice) menus. This was btw the first barrier we've had for a massive adoption of the tool here, and it just grow up when the first pt-br version was launched. Best, Jomar -Original Message- From: Kazunari Hirano khir...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:57:37 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: How to handle the native language lists? Hi Rob and all, Portuguese (pt) :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_language Brazilian Portuguese (pt-BR) :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Portuguese On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: How different is written br_pt and br_pt? :) I think br_pt and br_pt are the same. :) Is it far different than US versus UK English? Or Swiss German versus standard German? I don't know, and pt-BR users and pt users may not know, because we don't know US English, UK English, Swiss German and standard German. Would it be frustrating to users if they share the same Portuguese list for user support? I hope you are asking pt-BR users and pt users this question. Let us wait for them. They would tell us whether it would be frustrating to them if they share the same Portuguese list for user support or not. Thanks, khirano
Re: [VOTE] Acceptance of the OpenOffice.org Proposal
+1 Jomar On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton orc...@apache.org wrote: In reply to this message on ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org, vote for the acceptance of the proposal for governance and operation of the OpenOffice.org Forums within the Apache OpenOffice.org Podling. The Proposal text is at the October 12 version of wiki page https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Changes+integrate+the+forums+into+the+AOOo+project. The balloting will end midnight Friday, 2011-10-21T24:00Z, over 72 hours from now. A majority of approvals over disapprovals constitutes acceptance of the proposal. [ ] +1 approve [ ] 0 abstain [ ] -1 disapprove, for the following reasons: GUIDELINES ANYONE MAY VOTE. BINDING VOTES for determining the outcome are those cast by any of the 54 PPMC members (to be listed in a separate message). When the same individual casts more than one vote, the last-dated vote during the ballot period is taken as the final vote from that individual. Votes made anywhere but as replies to the ooo-dev list with this subject are not counted. DO NOT DISCUSS THE VOTING ON THIS THREAD. This thread is for the votes themselves, including explanations for -1 votes. Any other discussion related to this ballot, including discussions with anyone about their vote, should be on a separate threat with subject beginning [VOTE][DISCUSS]. - Dennis E. Hamilton tools for document interoperability, http://nfoWorks.org/ dennis.hamil...@acm.org gsm: +1-206-779-9430 @orcmid
Re: Apache Disavows Team OpenOffice.org e.V.
+1 Best, Jomar
Re: Fwd: [users] Re: Languages
A huge +1 on that ! Jomar PS.: A Klingon OpenOffice would be amazing to see :) On 2011/8/3 19:24 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: OK. Before someone starts saying nasty things about Garibaldi, it would be good to state some things I hope we all agree on: 1) What constitutes a language is as much a political and cultural question as a linguistic one. No sense debating it here. 2) OpenOffice.org has a rich history of offering support for many languages, many more than commercial office suites do. This is something we take pride in. This includes many minority languages, and even artificial languages like Esperanto. 3) If a group of volunteers wants to enable OpenOffice.org for a new language, we should point them to information on how to do this. We don't need to volunteer to do the translation, or use the translation, or even agree on the status of the language. But we should help someone understand how to do this. Remember, this might help lead to a future volunteer for the standard Italian translation as well. Thanks! -Rob On Sat, Sep 3, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Dale Erwin d...@casaerwin.org wrote: On 9/2/2011 10:23 PM, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: Hi Dale; With due respect to Italy's cultural richness (which I so much admire being italian myself but not only because of that), Neapolitan is classified as a dialect, not a language, for good reasons. Compared to standard italian you use the same character set and gramatical rules. Furthermore the computer related terms that OpenOffice uses are the same as in standard italian. My recomendation is just to add a dictionary with Naepolitan terms to the standard italian dictionary. best regards, Pedro, Spoken like a true northern Italian bigot... with all due respect. Please note I did not call you a northern Italian bigot... I said you speak like one. Maybe you are just misinformed. I agree that Neapolitan is a dialect because by definition a dialect is a LANGUAGE which is not the principal language of the country in which it is spoken and it is relegated to a particular region of that country. But it IS a language and is recognized as such by Wikipedia and by the Italian Province of Catania and has a rich literary presence spanning several centuries. For a brief time, from 1442 to 1458, Neapolitan was the official language of the Kingdom of Naples. It was supplanted by the Tuscan of Dante and Boccaccio which by 1500 had become the accepted literary language of Italy and generally referred to as Italian, but there was no official language called Italian until the unification of Italy. Although the official date of the unification is 1849, the Kingdom of Naples did not become part of the Kingdom of Italy until 1861. At that time Naples was possibly the richest city in the world and it was at this point that 80 million ducats were removed from the Bank of Naples and moved to the Bank of Italy causing the collapse of the entire southern Italian economy. It also gave rise to a bigotry in northern Italy which empowered them to deride the southern Italians because of their poverty (which they, the northerners, had caused). For this reason, it became unfashionable to speak Neapolitan. They call it the unification of Italy. I call it the rape of Naples. As for having the same character set as Italian, so does French, Spanish, Portughese, Rumanian and English. Are they also dialects? Of course not. And Neapolitan has its own grammar, too. There may be some similarities to Italian grammar, just as there are in French, Spanish, Portughese and any other Romance language. Here are but a few Neapolitan Grammar books: GRAMMATICA DEL DIALETTO NAPOLETANO compilata dal Dottor Raffaele Capozzoli; Luigi Chiurazzi Editore, 1889 'A LENGUA 'E PULECENELLA - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA Carlo Iandolo; Franco di Mauro Editore, 1994 IL NAPOLETANO PARLATO E SCRITTO Con Note di grammatica storica Nicola De Blasi - Luigi Imperatore; Libreria Dante Descartes, 2000 FACILE FACILE - Impariama la lingua napoletana - Grammatica Colomba Rosaria Andolfi; Kairos Edizioni - Napoli, 2008 MODERN NEAPOLITAN GRAMMAR - GRAMMATICA NAPOLETANA ODIERNA D. Erwin - M. T. Fedele Lulu Press, 2011 -- Dale Erwin Lurigancho, Lima 15 PERU http://leather.casaerwin.org === Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. (Email Guard: 7.0.0.26, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.18240) http://www.pctools.com/ ===
Res: Re: Forums footer layout ( was : Migrating the web forums atuser.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers )
Excellent work ! I prefer the first version, with the gulls above Apache (It has a better look and also shows more the 'integration between Apache and OOo' idea, IMHO). Best, Jomar -Original Message- From: drew d...@baseanswers.com Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2011 11:50:07 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Reply-To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Forums footer layout ( was : Migrating the web forums at user.services.openoffice.org to Apache servers ) On Sat, 2011-08-06 at 17:41 +0200, Eike Rathke wrote: Hi drew, On Saturday, 2011-08-06 11:27:14 -0400, drew wrote: Ok - here is a possible footer http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/images/c/cc/Aoo-OOo-Comm-Forum-footer.png nitpick The gulls should be above the Open, not Apache. /nitpick Howdy Eike ah, you noticed that did you. I can slide them back to the right, I thought it looked better with the change, but I'll go however the group wants. Here is an example with the gulls back in their original slot: http://lo-portal.us/AOOo/aoo-podling-200x70.png (note that was from earlier and the word Apache is a tad too large in that graphic..but ok for comparative use here) //drew
Re: Extensions and templates site down
As it happens I'd already started exploring this one with the Document Foundation Steering Committee, and Jomar Silva raised it on the TDF-Discuss list. TDF are just about to launch a full version of their extensions templates system and they would be perfectly happy for AOOo to redirect the URL that OpenOffice.org is using to access the repository so that it uses the system TDF are hosting for LibreOffice. They are also happy for this arrangement to continue for as long as it makes sense, and have no problem with a shared repository indefinitely. Like Apache, they are only willing to host open source packages, so if anyone wanted a system that also hosted closed packages it would need to be created as a downstream of TDF's system. I'm happy to act as a liaison on this if necessary, as I suspect is Jomar. S. I'll be happy too :) Jomar
Re: Extensions and templates site down
On 2011/6/12 19:38 Pedro Giffuni giffu...@tutopia.com wrote: While this is understandable, it is not good enough. We will have to find an alternative repository and link to it from Apache's website. This is something that can wait though. Can you please explain the 'not good enough' and also propose an alternative solution ? Best, Jomar
Re: OOO and LibreOffice.
On 2011/6/6 19:52 Andrew Rist andrew.r...@oracle.com wrote: To date the LibreOffice crew has taken the effort to merge in changes from the OOo code line, for each release. The most obvious and best way to collaborate in the future is to write good code, and make it worth their while to integrate it into LO. The more compelling the development effort at Apache, the more likely it is reused by LO. This also leads to the situation where they have an interest in pushing changes into the AOOo code line, to simplify their future merges. Andrew +1 Best, Jomar
Brazilian government and Apache OpenOffice.org / TDF's LibreOffice
Hi all, Last week during the FISL (International Free Software Forum) in Porto Alegre, the Brazilian Government's Free Software Implementation Committee decided to contribute with developers to the projects Apache OpenOffice.org and TDF's LibreOffice. The official press release and the signed 'Letter of Intent' can be found here - http://www.softwarelivre.gov.br/news/cisl-and-communities-strengthen-floss-office-suites. I hope that this is a solid first step for us in Brazil, and I also hope that it shows the need of a FLOSS Office Suite that we have here. I'll be working to get the developers on this mail list as soon as they' re appointed by their employers. I also did a presentation about Apache OpenOffice.org with Simon Phipps, inviting all Brazilian community to join us on the project. I plan to do a blog post on the next days talking about this governmental commitment, inviting other governments and individual contribution to work with us all. Best Regards, Jomar Silva
Re: Brazilian government and Apache OpenOffice.org / TDF's LibreOffice
Some numbers of the event on this year: - 6,914 participants, from 12 countries - 480 activities - 44 convoys - 161 people in the organizing committee, among ASL members, volunteers, hired consultancies and services. More can be found here - http://softwarelivre.org/fisl12/fisl12/noticias/closure-ceremony-in-casual-mood Best, Jomar On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Alexandro Colorado j...@openoffice.org wrote: On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Jomar Silva homem...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, Last week during the FISL (International Free Software Forum) in Porto Alegre, the Brazilian Government's Free Software Implementation Committee decided to contribute with developers to the projects Apache OpenOffice.org and TDF's LibreOffice. The official press release and the signed 'Letter of Intent' can be found here - http://www.softwarelivre.gov.br/news/cisl-and-communities-strengthen-floss-office-suites . I hope that this is a solid first step for us in Brazil, and I also hope that it shows the need of a FLOSS Office Suite that we have here. I'll be working to get the developers on this mail list as soon as they' re appointed by their employers. I also did a presentation about Apache OpenOffice.org with Simon Phipps, inviting all Brazilian community to join us on the project. I plan to do a blog post on the next days talking about this governmental commitment, inviting other governments and individual contribution to work with us all. Best Regards, Jomar Silva Great news Jomar, I would have loved to be there. But I am glad that the commitment for FLOSS office suites is still strong. I know Brazil has a large investment in the suite and is the countries interest that development keeps growing. -- *Alexandro Colorado* *OpenOffice.org* Español http://es.openoffice.org
Re: Build-Translate-Plan
On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Alexandro Colorado j...@openoffice.org wrote: Spanish would be good. I did submit a petition a few months back for this. Portuguese is a split language between portugal and brasil. Althought most of the romance language shared the same locales issues like long strings. In the past we used in Brazil the Portuguese (from Portugal) version of the translation, and it wasn't a 'happy experience' to our users, because some key works (as File) are transtaled using different words in Brazil (Arquivo) and Portugal (Ficheiro). All Portuguese (also speaken on some African and Asian countries) are now sharing the same orthography, but we still having different words to express the same things. I hope that in a few days I may present more about what we may do with Brazilian Portuguese, but yes, we would like to have a pt-br version too. Sorry for asking this later, but we're on the first day of FISL (www.fisl.org.br), a huge FLOSS event in Brazil. There will be a talk about Apache OpenOffice here on Saturday. Best, Jomar
Res: Introduction
Hello Bruno. Nice to see you around :) Best, Jomar --Mensagem original-- De: Bruno O. Barros Para: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Responder a: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Assunto: Introduction Enviada: 29 jun, 2011 00:43 Hello, I'm a brazilian graphic designer and hope I can help you guys develop an even nicer OpenOffice. Lately I've been working on the UI/UX of a couple of iOS apps and I have some experience on webdesign. My portfolio: http://ilustrebob.com.br/ (unfortunately it's in pt-BR) Thanks, B.O.B. Portfolio IlustreBOB.com.br (http://IlustreBOB.com.br) — twitter.com/IlustreBOB (http://twitter.com/IlustreBOB)
Re: New goals for OOo
I'm not sure if this is the right place to present that, and seeing that I'm still learning The Apache Way, I'll try :) I've published a few days ago at my blog an idea about what I believe we could aim as the architecture of Apache OOo. I believe that this could help us to organize the project, tasks and teams, and I did it based on several other OOo architecture diagrams I've found online. The diagram can be found here (http://homembit.com/wp-content/arch.png) and just for the record I also wrote a blog post with my thoughts about the project (http://homembit.com/2011/06/what-i-think-about-apache-openofficeorg-an-invitation-to-the-collaborative-work.html). The text is also available in Brazilian Portuguese and as far as I know it was the first text about the project published in Brazil. I'm also working here in Brazil with some other friends that are already in this list to gather more BR developers. Just my R$ 0,02 (which is by far less than the other currencies used to present people's cents on this discussion :)). Best, - Jomar
Re: Introduction
I will try to follow the discussions, see how works this environment and see how i can contribute. Best regards, Claudio Welcome, my friend :) -Jomar
Re: Teams and Leads
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Rob Weir apa...@robweir.com wrote: It might be worth describing how national language projects and the OpenOffce NLC has worked in the past. I think this would be educational for our Apache mentors to understand a little of what they do. It is much more than just translation. They are almost more like affiliate organizations that promote OpenOffice in their countries., They are the face of OOo in their respective countries. But you could explain it better than me. A top level question for is is how we see this mapping to the Apache project. The two extremes are: 1) Move all of this into the Apache project. All 100+ translation projects, country marketing projects, etc. 2) Have the national language projects run outside of Apache. Since anyone can modify the code we released and repackage it and distribute it, it should be possible for any party to independently add translations and even rename it for distribution in their country. Of course, while respecting the license and trademark requirements. I really like the idea number 2. At least in Brazil, we used to have a lot of traffic on our native language mailing list, and a lot of people raising their hands to help with a lot of things. A big part of the BR community here don't speak english, so they may only contribute when they have a place to discuss on our native language (I really dislike the idea to have some folks acting as a language proxy for the whole community). There are also many particularities on how each country's community do their collaborative work and how they're organized. As far as the Apache licence and trademarks policy are respected by the national languages teams, I believe that we could have a better dinamic on the whole process if we go for something like Rob's idea #2. Best, Jomar
