Re: Apache and ODF
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 21:14:19 Rob Weir wrote: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote: Hi, Today my wife got her new Kindle which comes with a document viewer based on Apache Freetype for the rendering job and Apache POI which is a Java library to parse Microsoft documents. It handles doc(x)/xls(x)/ppt(x) but no ODF. Although I am not deeply involved in this project, I feel somewhat embarrassed and alarmed because in the year 2012 the Apache foundation develops excellent tools to process proprietary file formats but fails to offer anything equivalent for the free and much simpler ODF standard. Is my assumption correct that http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/ would be the remedy to solve that problem but due to a lack of development resources it is not ready for the job? The ODF Toolkit is a Java library for manipulating ODF documents. A classic use would be document automation, e.g., taking a document template and filling in data from a database, to create a new ODF document. It does this all without any GUI, no OpenOffice required. It is not an editor, not a viewer. It has no rendering, layout or calculation logic. It operates directly on the document file. So ordinarily I'd say that this was not appropriate for a document viewer, certainly not without a layout engine. But on something like the Kindle, with relatively simple layout requirements, the ODF Toolkit would be analogous to POI, and would make the task far easier. If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for Kindle's MOBI format. -Rob Greetings, Andreas Säger Calligra Author and Calligra Words 2.6 that will be released as beta in next week has both a new Epub2 and a MOBI export. This is done because of the new Calligra Author application that is aimed especially at creating ebooks. Upcoming versions will also have Epub3 support with dynamic contents.
Re: Apache and ODF
Hi, All: I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important point should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout result? or the fidelity of the document originally recorded? For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as Letter, which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and user want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as 1.71) screen for presenting. If we do much more care about the adaptability of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed, removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more, we have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give some adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full page-width-size table for instance. Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for desktop, will obey the Keep Fidelity as the very first rule. But what about the mobile device platforms? As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper discussion. Thanks. ZhengFan 2012/10/26 Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote: If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for Kindle's MOBI format. -Rob Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other device.
Re: Apache and ODF
On 26 October 2012 08:42, Fan Zheng zheng.easy...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, All: I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important point should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout result? or the fidelity of the document originally recorded? For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as Letter, which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and user want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as 1.71) screen for presenting. Is it possible to have choices? Keep the original page aspect ratio and scroll (Never used a kindle so not sure if it can scroll but obviously Android on phones can!) or have a fit to aspect where the page is scaled to the kindle in AOO befor export. If one of the pre-defined page templates in AOO was the kindle page size it would be possible to reformat the pages in a document to that size just as you can change from say A4 to US letter. Probably for complex documents with graphics this would break some parts of the layout but for the sort of text only novels etc mostly used on these devices it should work well enough. This assumes you can export to epub/mobi format in any scale but I'm assuming that will be similar to export to pdf. Of course the resulting document layout could be checked by viewing the epub/mobi output. Having an odf viewer for the mobile devices would be an alternative method and probably less constrained than using epub formats but it is also more work to do it. OTOH a versatile odf reader for mobile devices could be very useful in helping establish odf as the open standard for all types of document. If we do much more care about the adaptability of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed, removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more, we have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give some adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full page-width-size table for instance. There can be issues with documents that have both portrait and landscape pages in them on normal computer screens. Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for desktop, will obey the Keep Fidelity as the very first rule. But what about the mobile device platforms? As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper discussion. Thanks. ZhengFan 2012/10/26 Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote: If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for Kindle's MOBI format. -Rob Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other device. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: Apache and ODF
On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:58:25 +0100 Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 October 2012 08:42, Fan Zheng zheng.easy...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, All: I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important point should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout result? or the fidelity of the document originally recorded? For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as Letter, which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and user want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as 1.71) screen for presenting. Is it possible to have choices? Keep the original page aspect ratio and scroll (Never used a kindle so not sure if it can scroll but obviously Android on phones can!) or have a fit to aspect where the page is scaled to the kindle in AOO befor export. If one of the pre-defined page templates in AOO was the kindle page size it would be possible to reformat the pages in a document to that size just as you can change from say A4 to US letter. Probably for complex documents with graphics this would break some parts of the layout but for the sort of text only novels etc mostly used on these devices it should work well enough. This assumes you can export to epub/mobi format in any scale but I'm assuming that will be similar to export to pdf. Of course the resulting document layout could be checked by viewing the epub/mobi output. Having an odf viewer for the mobile devices would be an alternative method and probably less constrained than using epub formats but it is also more work to do it. OTOH a versatile odf reader for mobile devices could be very useful in helping establish odf as the open standard for all types of document. If we do much more care about the adaptability of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed, removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more, we have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give some adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full page-width-size table for instance. There can be issues with documents that have both portrait and landscape pages in them on normal computer screens. Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for desktop, will obey the Keep Fidelity as the very first rule. But what about the mobile device platforms? As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper discussion. Thanks. ZhengFan 2012/10/26 Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote: If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for Kindle's MOBI format. -Rob Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other device. In this discussion it is important to specify clearly which Kindle is the target device, as the screen ratio and pixel count varies from device to device with the newer Kindles. A stranger coming to this discussion might assume that Kindle genericly refers to the normal reading Kindle, with an 800h x 600w screen, which is the common Kindle in use. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
Re: Apache and ODF
To Ian: Yes, I agree with you that there shall be options for: 1. Fitful formatting way, for the READING; and 2. Uniform formatting way, for the REPRESENTATION; Thus, the solution will lead: A: The bad thing is that there shall be a series of formatting specification definitions, for Kindle, Kindle Fire, Kindle Fire II, iPad, iPad Mini, IPod touch, IPhone BLA BLA BLA B: The good thing is, such refining job indicating various device platforms, could be finished inside the AOO existing framework and formatting process, only with the external works on supplying above definitions. To Rory: In my point, now, we may need not to specify the exact target we are aimed at. For although the detailed specification of every type of popular devices we faced are different, the problems need to be clarified and solved are commonly the same type of issue, is that Adaptability and Fidelity, which is bigger. Definitely, it is an UX issue, which should let KG to be involved in; But, a given solution for the issue should be workable for all the devices (of cause maybe including annoy duplicated works, but should sharing the same working path and steps), whatever the decision will be. Ah, yes, maybe we let the new comers confused in some degree. So should we keep on going within a new thread? Or renaming the current one? Thanks. ZhengFan. 2012/10/26 Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:58:25 +0100 Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 October 2012 08:42, Fan Zheng zheng.easy...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, All: I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important point should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout result? or the fidelity of the document originally recorded? For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as Letter, which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and user want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as 1.71) screen for presenting. Is it possible to have choices? Keep the original page aspect ratio an scroll (Never used a kindle so not sure if it can scroll but obviously Android on phones can!) or have a fit to aspect where the page is scaled to the kindle in AOO befor export. If one of the pre-defined page templates in AOO was the kindle page size it would be possible to reformat the pages in a document to that size just as you can change from say A4 to US letter. Probably for complex documents with graphics this would break some parts of the layout but for the sort of text only novels etc mostly used on these devices it should work well enough. This assumes you can export to epub/mobi format in any scale but I'm assuming that will be similar to export to pdf. Of course the resulting document layout could be checked by viewing the epub/mobi output. Having an odf viewer for the mobile devices would be an alternative method and probably less constrained than using epub formats but it is also more work to do it. OTOH a versatile odf reader for mobile devices could be very useful in helping establish odf as the open standard for all types of document. If we do much more care about the adaptability of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed, removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more, we have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give some adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full page-width-size table for instance. There can be issues with documents that have both portrait and landscape pages in them on normal computer screens. Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for desktop, will obey the Keep Fidelity as the very first rule. But what about the mobile device platforms? As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper discussion. Thanks. ZhengFan 2012/10/26 Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote: If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for Kindle's MOBI format. -Rob Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other device. In this discussion it is important to specify clearly which Kindle is the target device, as the screen ratio
Re: Apache and ODF
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 3:42 AM, Fan Zheng zheng.easy...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, All: I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important point should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout result? or the fidelity of the document originally recorded? Generally both modes are supported. And sometimes it varies based on the format. For example, PDF files are fixed-layout. So they require you to zoom and pan on smaller screens. But larger screens, like Kindle DX or iPad can show a full PDF page. ePub and MOBI digital book files are designed to reflow according to screen size and user's font size preferences. But some content types, like magazines on the Kindle, can work both ways. The user can choose to have a full-page layout that mimics the original printed magazine. Or they can choose to have it reflow per the screen and font size. So ideally we would want to support both. -Rob For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as Letter, which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and user want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as 1.71) screen for presenting. If we do much more care about the adaptability of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed, removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more, we have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give some adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full page-width-size table for instance. Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for desktop, will obey the Keep Fidelity as the very first rule. But what about the mobile device platforms? As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper discussion. Thanks. ZhengFan 2012/10/26 Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote: If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for Kindle's MOBI format. -Rob Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other device.
Re: Apache and ODF
Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote: If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for Kindle's MOBI format. For the records: Amazon does not even deliver .epub files sent via Email to the mail account of the Kindle Fire HD (it drops attachments into the home folder). The sender (me) gets an error mail with a list of accepted formats.
RE: Apache and ODF
@Rory, I agree about Kindle. A Kindle Fire has more functionality and all of the UI capabilities one expects of an Android device, whereas the Kindle Readers have a different, special-purpose application. I see Rob has provided a comprehensive statement later on this thread. I would add that this is not a matter that requires particular support in ODF. Implementations of ODF support clearly have discretion in this area, since there is no specification of how presentation is handled for editing. - Dennis OTHER EXPERIENCE My smart phone has Adobe (Acrobat) Reader on it. Acrobat Reader maintains layout fidelity but it is easy to zoom into the full-page view and also move around on it. I can rotate the phone, of course, in order to have a wider view or a longer view. For Word documents on my smartphone, there is less attention to formatting and print layout and the material is re-flowed. If I rotate the phone, the layout will be reflowed again to take advantage of the landscape or portrait window. There is no attempt to replicate page layout. Also, my phone does not allow editing of Office documents that have features the phone can't preserve. (I have the option of opening the document, stored on SkyDrive, via the browser on the phone, however.) For Excel documents, there is more attention to layout preservation. It is a bit in-between the PDF and the Word cases. I agree, tablets and slates will have more room for improved layout. Since a table may be able to connect to a printer, also, there would need to be a way to see a print preview, even if print layout is challenging, depending on the size of the tablet display. A great deal will also depend on how much of the work is done on the device and how much is in the cloud, depending on connectivity and other provisions/options. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarr...@iol.ie] Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 02:06 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Apache and ODF On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:58:25 +0100 Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: On 26 October 2012 08:42, Fan Zheng zheng.easy...@gmail.com wrote: [ ... ] Is it possible to have choices? Keep the original page aspect ratio and scroll (Never used a kindle so not sure if it can scroll but obviously Android on phones can!) or have a fit to aspect where the page is scaled to the kindle in AOO befor export. If one of the pre-defined page templates in AOO was the kindle page size it would be possible to reformat the pages in a document to that size just as you can change from say A4 to US letter. [ ... ] There can be issues with documents that have both portrait and landscape pages in them on normal computer screens. [ ... ] In this discussion it is important to specify clearly which Kindle is the target device, as the screen ratio and pixel count varies from device to device with the newer Kindles. A stranger coming to this discussion might assume that Kindle genericly refers to the normal reading Kindle, with an 800h x 600w screen, which is the common Kindle in use. -- Rory O'Farrell ofarr...@iol.ie
Re: Apache and ODF
As a member of the Apache POI and OpenOffice PMCs. The answer is yes ODF toolkit might be the correct approach. The mentors on that podling Yegor and Nick are key members of the POI project. They will both be at ApacheCon EU. Regards, Dave Sent from my iPhone On Oct 25, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Andreas Säger ville...@t-online.de wrote: Hi, Today my wife got her new Kindle which comes with a document viewer based on Apache Freetype for the rendering job and Apache POI which is a Java library to parse Microsoft documents. It handles doc(x)/xls(x)/ppt(x) but no ODF. Although I am not deeply involved in this project, I feel somewhat embarrassed and alarmed because in the year 2012 the Apache foundation develops excellent tools to process proprietary file formats but fails to offer anything equivalent for the free and much simpler ODF standard. Is my assumption correct that http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/ would be the remedy to solve that problem but due to a lack of development resources it is not ready for the job? Greetings, Andreas Säger
Re: Apache and ODF
Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote: If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for Kindle's MOBI format. -Rob Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other device.
