[OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
If by siloing you mean that parts of the community with interest in a specialized topic (which may or may not be of immediate interest to the rest of the community) can discuss issues on that topic using a mailing list dedicated to that topic, I'm not bother by it ;) It's not like we are talking about a password-protected invitation-only secret list with no public logging. I did not get the sense that the community is currently siloed in any way, even though I can count at least 10 mailing lists currently in existence. I subscribed to the ones of interest to me. Having separate lists allows me to automatically filter the incoming messages and pay more attention to the topics of more immediate interest. Considering 100s of emails I get per day, that is actually very helpful. Alexey Lazar PALS Information System Developer and Integrator 507-389-2907 http://www.mnpals.org/ On May 4, 2012, at 16:15 , Lori Bowen Ayre wrote: I'd like to see the SysAdmin stuff live on the General List because that is the one list that we encourage everyone to participate in. On the page that describes our mailing lists (http://evergreen-ils.org/listserv.php), the Dev list is listed a the Technical Discussion Mailing List but then it is described (as Yamil notes) as a place for patches and technical discussions about Evergreen and OpenSRF development which suggests it is really more about development than all things technical. In addition, the name of the list (once you've joined) is Evergreen Development Discussion List. If we were to move forward with having SysAdmin stuff on the General List, I would suggest changing the descriptions to something like this: A) Evergreen General Discussion List This is the primary list for the Evergreen community -- Evergreen users, Evergreen Sys Admins, Developers, librarians, library workers, fellow travelers, or people just plain curious about Evergreen are encouraged to subscribe. Traffic on this list is moderate to heavy. Posts range from discussions about possible new features to questions about implementation and configuration. There is no such thing as a dumb question or comment for the Evergreen general list. If you're thinking the question, chances are, you're in good company. Ask, and you give other members of the Evergreen community an opportunity to share their growing knowledge. Because it is a list used by so many different groups of people, please use the SUBJECT field to clearly identify the topic so that the right people are sure to read your post. B) Evergreen Development Discussion List This list is for developers or for people who wish to communicate with developers about patches, features, bugs, and enhancement. The list is for very technical discussions about Evergreen and OpenSRF development. Messages and responses are often in the shorthand common to this culture. Traffic on this list is light. On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:55 PM, Yamil Suarez ysua...@berklee.edu wrote: Hello everyone, I just wanted to finally weigh in on this topic. For now I am partially siding with Ben Shum in that we do not create a new list because silo'ing concerns, but I always though that it was never clear if I should use the dev or the general lists for my sysadmin questions. For example, see below for how the two lists are currently described on the site http://evergreen-ils.org/listserv.php --- A) Evergreen General Discussion List This is the general-topic, (usually) non-technical list for the Evergreen community -- Evergreen users, librarians, library workers, library users, developers, fellow travelers, or people just plain curious about Evergreen. As of October, 2008, this list had over 500 members. Its traffic is moderate. General means general. Posts range from discussions about possible new features to quick questions about implementation. There is no such thing as a dumb question or comment for the Evergreen general list. If you're thinking the question, chances are, you're in good company. Ask, and you give other members of the Evergreen community an opportunity to share their growing knowledge. B) Evergreen Technical Discussion List This list is for patches and technical discussions about Evergreen and OpenSRF development. Messages and responses are often in the shorthand common to this culture. So which ever way we go with this, I think we should make small updates to the description of which ever lists that we end up with to make it more clear where sysadmin questions should be send to. Finally, thanks to Chris for setting up a meeting to talk about this. Yamil On May 1, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Ben Shum wrote: I'm -1 to this proposal. For many years, I've mused with other Evergreen system administrators on the issues facing our particular role and areas for
Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Lazar, Alexey Vladimirovich alexey.la...@mnsu.edu wrote: If by siloing you mean that parts of the community with interest in a specialized topic (which may or may not be of immediate interest to the rest of the community) can discuss issues on that topic using a mailing list dedicated to that topic, I'm not bother by it ;) It's not like we are talking about a password-protected invitation-only secret list with no public logging. I did not get the sense that the community is currently siloed in any way, even though I can count at least 10 mailing lists currently in existence. I subscribed to the ones of interest to me. Having separate lists allows me to automatically filter the incoming messages and pay more attention to the topics of more immediate interest. Considering 100s of emails I get per day, that is actually very helpful. What I am referring to is that if in the future we have a separate sysadmin list, those that don't sign up to both the sysadmin and dev list might miss out on some relevant information and discussions on the dev list or vice versa. I don't think it is a bad thing to have a scenario that find us wanting to recommend to someone that they should sign up to two lists instead of one, but I would feel bad for those that were not aware of both lists when they would benefit from them. Right now I am sure many out there already recommend to sysadmins to at least subscribe to both the dev and general lists at a minimum, and perhaps we will add a third list (sysadmin) in the future. Though of course I don't think adding this third list is an insurmountable challenge. I hope what I meant make more sense now, not that it makes it more preferable. Yamil
Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 8:34 AM, rogan.ha...@yclibrary.net wrote: Quoting Galen Charlton g...@esilibrary.com: However, I would like to riff off a comment that Dan Scott made on IRC earlier today: if a sysadmin list gets created but folks start answering questions with the response You're on the wrong list! Go away!, I would immediately move to collapse *all* Evergreen project into open-ils-general. ;) I'm tempted to setup a bot to +1 this sentiment repeatedly. To me the argument behind creating a new list is to expand conversations and create new ones, not to fork or stifle them. My general SysAdmin questions have always been covered well on the IRC, but I appreciate the drag on developers' time that answering the same 20 questions multiple times a week might pose (though I have only rarely seen the equivalent of RTFM or you're on the wrong list). Sometimes I really was asking the question on the wrong list! I think a list for sysadmins makes some sense, but it begs the question, Whose time and expertise will be split out to cover the questions there? Just a thought, Wolf Regards, Galen -- Galen Charlton Director of Support and Implementation Equinox Software, Inc. / The Open Source Experts email: g...@esilibrary.com direct: +1 770-709-5581 cell: +1 404-984-4366 skype: gmcharlt web:http://www.esilibrary.com Supporting Koha and Evergreen: http://koha-community.org http://evergreen-ils.org -- Rogan Hamby Manager Rock Hill Library Reference Services York County Library System Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx -- This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com Advancing Libraries Together - http://LYRASIS.org
Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
I'd be in general a -1 also simply because the open-ils-general list isn't too crowded with communication. I don't think we want to create additional lists unless one communication channel is so crowded with discussion that a topic gets lost in the conversation. Tim Spindler C/W MARS On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Galen Charlton g...@esilibrary.com wrote: Hi, On 5/1/2012 12:29 PM, Jason Etheridge wrote: But, as was said in IRC today, whatever gets folks talking and sharing... And I'm consequently a mild +1 for the original proposal. There is nothing in open-ils-dev's remit that should forbid or discourage discussion of any technical topic, including system administration. Nonetheless, if there is active interest in a new forum, I would rather that we let it run as a mindful experiment under the Evergreen banner rather than risk the discussion not happening at all or taking place elsewhere. If a sysadmin list gets little traffic, it is easy enough to close it, just as it would be easy to create it in the first place. If it seems to be wandering into the wheat fields (the land of silos, natch), we can work together to draw it back into the fold. However, I would like to riff off a comment that Dan Scott made on IRC earlier today: if a sysadmin list gets created but folks start answering questions with the response You're on the wrong list! Go away!, I would immediately move to collapse *all* Evergreen project into open-ils-general. ;) Regards, Galen -- Galen Charlton Director of Support and Implementation Equinox Software, Inc. / The Open Source Experts email: g...@esilibrary.com direct: +1 770-709-5581 cell: +1 404-984-4366 skype: gmcharlt web:http://www.esilibrary.com Supporting Koha and Evergreen: http://koha-community.org http://evergreen-ils.org -- Tim Spindler tjspind...@gmail.com *P** Go Green - **Save a tree! Please don't print this e-mail unless it's really necessary.*
Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
I'm neither a +1 nor a -1 on this topic. What I would like to say relative to this topic, however, is that I hope people will step out on a limb and put their questions and comments out there one way or another. At the conference, I heard from many people that they were reluctant about posting for one reason or another. Generally these ideas revolved around insecurity of some kind. I can imagine a lot of overlaps between issues related to development and sysadmin and if everyone is really okay with all things technical, it seems better to keep all the useful info that will pass through the list in one place. I want the devs to know if there is something that the sysadmins are struggling with...for example. And often a developer will have the key to a problem that a sysadmin is facing. So I guess I'm leaning more to the Ben camp on this. I would like to encourage us all to do a better job of encouraging everyone to use the mailing lists and be very careful about the way we interact with each other. I'd like us to develop a Code of Conduct...I believe Jono suggested such a thing and it started with something along the lines of 1. Don't be a jerk. Perhaps we could flesh that out! I'm thinking we could modify our Communications Guidelines with our Code of Conduct, if we could develop one. We'll also update it with info about our new lists and perhaps add some language to encourage everyone to use them more freely. Lori On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Galen Charlton g...@esilibrary.com wrote: Hi, On 5/1/2012 12:29 PM, Jason Etheridge wrote: But, as was said in IRC today, whatever gets folks talking and sharing... And I'm consequently a mild +1 for the original proposal. There is nothing in open-ils-dev's remit that should forbid or discourage discussion of any technical topic, including system administration. Nonetheless, if there is active interest in a new forum, I would rather that we let it run as a mindful experiment under the Evergreen banner rather than risk the discussion not happening at all or taking place elsewhere. If a sysadmin list gets little traffic, it is easy enough to close it, just as it would be easy to create it in the first place. If it seems to be wandering into the wheat fields (the land of silos, natch), we can work together to draw it back into the fold. However, I would like to riff off a comment that Dan Scott made on IRC earlier today: if a sysadmin list gets created but folks start answering questions with the response You're on the wrong list! Go away!, I would immediately move to collapse *all* Evergreen project into open-ils-general. ;) Regards, Galen -- Galen Charlton Director of Support and Implementation Equinox Software, Inc. / The Open Source Experts email: g...@esilibrary.com direct: +1 770-709-5581 cell: +1 404-984-4366 skype: gmcharlt web:http://www.esilibrary.com Supporting Koha and Evergreen: http://koha-community.org http://evergreen-ils.org
Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
I agree with Lori. I think she hit the nail on the head. Tim On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 6:57 AM, Lori Bowen Ayre lori.a...@galecia.comwrote: I'm neither a +1 nor a -1 on this topic. What I would like to say relative to this topic, however, is that I hope people will step out on a limb and put their questions and comments out there one way or another. At the conference, I heard from many people that they were reluctant about posting for one reason or another. Generally these ideas revolved around insecurity of some kind. I can imagine a lot of overlaps between issues related to development and sysadmin and if everyone is really okay with all things technical, it seems better to keep all the useful info that will pass through the list in one place. I want the devs to know if there is something that the sysadmins are struggling with...for example. And often a developer will have the key to a problem that a sysadmin is facing. So I guess I'm leaning more to the Ben camp on this. I would like to encourage us all to do a better job of encouraging everyone to use the mailing lists and be very careful about the way we interact with each other. I'd like us to develop a Code of Conduct...I believe Jono suggested such a thing and it started with something along the lines of 1. Don't be a jerk. Perhaps we could flesh that out! I'm thinking we could modify our Communications Guidelines with our Code of Conduct, if we could develop one. We'll also update it with info about our new lists and perhaps add some language to encourage everyone to use them more freely. Lori On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Galen Charlton g...@esilibrary.com wrote: Hi, On 5/1/2012 12:29 PM, Jason Etheridge wrote: But, as was said in IRC today, whatever gets folks talking and sharing... And I'm consequently a mild +1 for the original proposal. There is nothing in open-ils-dev's remit that should forbid or discourage discussion of any technical topic, including system administration. Nonetheless, if there is active interest in a new forum, I would rather that we let it run as a mindful experiment under the Evergreen banner rather than risk the discussion not happening at all or taking place elsewhere. If a sysadmin list gets little traffic, it is easy enough to close it, just as it would be easy to create it in the first place. If it seems to be wandering into the wheat fields (the land of silos, natch), we can work together to draw it back into the fold. However, I would like to riff off a comment that Dan Scott made on IRC earlier today: if a sysadmin list gets created but folks start answering questions with the response You're on the wrong list! Go away!, I would immediately move to collapse *all* Evergreen project into open-ils-general. ;) Regards, Galen -- Galen Charlton Director of Support and Implementation Equinox Software, Inc. / The Open Source Experts email: g...@esilibrary.com direct: +1 770-709-5581 cell: +1 404-984-4366 skype: gmcharlt web:http://www.esilibrary.com Supporting Koha and Evergreen: http://koha-community.org http://evergreen-ils.org -- Tim Spindler tjspind...@gmail.com *P** Go Green - **Save a tree! Please don't print this e-mail unless it's really necessary.*
Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
Quoting Galen Charlton g...@esilibrary.com: However, I would like to riff off a comment that Dan Scott made on IRC earlier today: if a sysadmin list gets created but folks start answering questions with the response You're on the wrong list! Go away!, I would immediately move to collapse *all* Evergreen project into open-ils-general. ;) I'm tempted to setup a bot to +1 this sentiment repeatedly. To me the argument behind creating a new list is to expand conversations and create new ones, not to fork or stifle them. Regards, Galen -- Galen Charlton Director of Support and Implementation Equinox Software, Inc. / The Open Source Experts email: g...@esilibrary.com direct: +1 770-709-5581 cell: +1 404-984-4366 skype: gmcharlt web:http://www.esilibrary.com Supporting Koha and Evergreen: http://koha-community.org http://evergreen-ils.org -- Rogan Hamby Manager Rock Hill Library Reference Services York County Library System Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
[OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
+1 Quoting Justin Hopkins jus...@mobiusconsortium.org: We just wrapped up the post-conference systems administrator training, which was awesome. Afterwards we were talking about the utility of a new discussion list focused on Evergreen systems administration. I think the topic is deep enough to warrant a list, and if this group is any indication there is also sufficient interest. Systems administration (troubleshooting server config issues, installing/setting up Evergreen, using git, performance tuning, network issues, cluster configuration, security, etc) seems to be an area that deserves it's own forum. I've received plenty of great help on those topics in IRC, which I'm very appreciative of, but let's face it - IRC is and probably always will be the domain of developers. I'm hoping that if enough people on this list express an interest that someone (Chris Sharp?) could create such a list. So let's hear it sysads - should we create the missing list? Regards, Justin Hopkins Coordinator, IT Web Services MOBIUS Consortium Office c: 573-808-2309 --sent from a mobile device-- -- Rogan Hamby Manager Rock Hill Library Reference Services York County Library System Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
[OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
I also think it's a great idea. J Lazar, Alexey Vladimirovich May 1, 2012 10:12 AM Yes, this is an excellent idea. Alexey LazarPALSInformation System Developer and Integrator507-389-2907http://www.mnpals.org/ Justin Hopkins April 30, 2012 8:11 PM We just wrapped up the post-conference systems administrator training,which was awesome. Afterwards we were talking about the utility of anew discussion list focused on Evergreen systems administration.I think the topic is deep enough to warrant a list, and if this groupis any indication there is also sufficient interest. Systemsadministration (troubleshooting server config issues,installing/setting up Evergreen, using git, performance tuning,network issues, cluster configuration, security, etc) seems to be anarea that deserves it's own forum. I've received plenty of great helpon those topics in IRC, which I'm very appreciative of, but let's faceit - IRC is and probably always will be the domain of developers.I'm hoping that if enough people on this list express an interest thatsomeone (Chris Sharp?) could create such a list. So let's hear itsysads - should we create the "missing list"?Regards,Justin HopkinsCoordinator, IT Web ServicesMOBIUS Consortium Officec: 573-808-2309--sent from a mobile device-- -- John Houser Technology Coordinator HSLC 215-534-6820 hou...@hslc.org
[OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
I'm -1 to this proposal. For many years, I've mused with other Evergreen system administrators on the issues facing our particular role and areas for discussion. The idea of making our own mailing list seemed like a good idea at many points in those discussions, and if you asked me a few years ago, I would have said yes. But here are some potential concerns I have now: While our role within our organizations may be to find the best practices for implementing/running an Evergreen system (and all the related areas of interest noted), we can also have a key role to play in Evergreen's overall development. As system administrators, we are often at the cutting edge of testing, bug reporting, and troubleshooting how Evergreen performs in the field. We can provide invaluable feedback to the Evergreen developers when we discuss our sys-admin issues in the existing lists / IRC. Creating a separate list introduces the possibility that more information can become lost between groups if people do not subscribe to every list. While of course, many of us would likely be signed up to these multiple lists and potentially act as representatives between groups, I do not like to see the burden of communication between various lists/groups to become a necessary conscious act on behalf of those subscribed to several lists. Like say for example: John Smith has an installation problem and mentions it only on the sys admin list. But it turns out to be an actual issue with the Evergreen code itself and we have to involve developers to get it fixed for everyone in the community. Do we then have to take the originally reported issue from the sys admin list and forward it to the dev list and discuss solutions? The extra time and potential for lost information/facts gives me concerns that having that extra layer of communication may prove unwieldy. Alternatively, what if someone posted a question to both mailing lists (sys admin and dev) and different people respond on each thread (based on whichever list they were subscribed) and the conversation becomes fractured between two lists? How does everything get put back together in a nice ordered way for the next generation of users searching for information / learning. To summarize, in my opinion, the system administrators while definitely having their own set of issues and topics of discussion are still a core part of the overall Evergreen development community and we should participate using the same areas for discussion such as the dev mailing list and IRC so that we don't miss anything or leave anything out of the mainstream Evergreen community. The main thing I would want to change at this point in time is perhaps the wording used to describe the dev mailing list to expand beyond just technical code/patches, but to be a broader description and reinforce the technical discussion list title. Unless of course, the developers tell us that they'd prefer to keep that list to talking only about real development only... ;) -- Ben On 4/30/2012 8:11 PM, Justin Hopkins wrote: We just wrapped up the post-conference systems administrator training, which was awesome. Afterwards we were talking about the utility of a new discussion list focused on Evergreen systems administration. I think the topic is deep enough to warrant a list, and if this group is any indication there is also sufficient interest. Systems administration (troubleshooting server config issues, installing/setting up Evergreen, using git, performance tuning, network issues, cluster configuration, security, etc) seems to be an area that deserves it's own forum. I've received plenty of great help on those topics in IRC, which I'm very appreciative of, but let's face it - IRC is and probably always will be the domain of developers. I'm hoping that if enough people on this list express an interest that someone (Chris Sharp?) could create such a list. So let's hear it sysads - should we create the missing list? Regards, Justin Hopkins Coordinator, IT Web Services MOBIUS Consortium Office c: 573-808-2309 --sent from a mobile device-- -- Benjamin Shum Open Source Software Coordinator Bibliomation, Inc. 32 Crest Road Middlebury, CT 06762 203-577-4070, ext. 113
Re: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
-1 I want to show a little solidarity with Ben on this issue, admitting up front that I'm not in practice the sysadmin of any Evergreen site. It's absolutely great for the sysadmin community to communicate and share more; that will be only a win for the project in general whether you do it in your own mailing list or on the general one. It's the siloing of our community that I worry about. Dan Scott and I seemed to be successful in talking the Acq group out of starting a new list the conference, and there are a few other folks (including non developers) who spoke about intracommunity communications. I can't recall who right now (but thank you!). I think the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing in our community is a problem sometimes, but it's one we should be able to fix. I'll be making more of an effort on my part to ensure that development isn't going on in the dark. This isn't a bitter -1, and if you do create a new sysadmin list, more power to all of you. Sharing information and ideas is what's most important here. Lebbeous On 05/01/2012 12:14 PM, Ben Shum wrote: I'm -1 to this proposal. For many years, I've mused with other Evergreen system administrators on the issues facing our particular role and areas for discussion. The idea of making our own mailing list seemed like a good idea at many points in those discussions, and if you asked me a few years ago, I would have said yes. But here are some potential concerns I have now: While our role within our organizations may be to find the best practices for implementing/running an Evergreen system (and all the related areas of interest noted), we can also have a key role to play in Evergreen's overall development. As system administrators, we are often at the cutting edge of testing, bug reporting, and troubleshooting how Evergreen performs in the field. We can provide invaluable feedback to the Evergreen developers when we discuss our sys-admin issues in the existing lists / IRC. Creating a separate list introduces the possibility that more information can become lost between groups if people do not subscribe to every list. While of course, many of us would likely be signed up to these multiple lists and potentially act as representatives between groups, I do not like to see the burden of communication between various lists/groups to become a necessary conscious act on behalf of those subscribed to several lists. Like say for example: John Smith has an installation problem and mentions it only on the sys admin list. But it turns out to be an actual issue with the Evergreen code itself and we have to involve developers to get it fixed for everyone in the community. Do we then have to take the originally reported issue from the sys admin list and forward it to the dev list and discuss solutions? The extra time and potential for lost information/facts gives me concerns that having that extra layer of communication may prove unwieldy. Alternatively, what if someone posted a question to both mailing lists (sys admin and dev) and different people respond on each thread (based on whichever list they were subscribed) and the conversation becomes fractured between two lists? How does everything get put back together in a nice ordered way for the next generation of users searching for information / learning. To summarize, in my opinion, the system administrators while definitely having their own set of issues and topics of discussion are still a core part of the overall Evergreen development community and we should participate using the same areas for discussion such as the dev mailing list and IRC so that we don't miss anything or leave anything out of the mainstream Evergreen community. The main thing I would want to change at this point in time is perhaps the wording used to describe the dev mailing list to expand beyond just technical code/patches, but to be a broader description and reinforce the technical discussion list title. Unless of course, the developers tell us that they'd prefer to keep that list to talking only about real development only... ;) -- Ben On 4/30/2012 8:11 PM, Justin Hopkins wrote: We just wrapped up the post-conference systems administrator training, which was awesome. Afterwards we were talking about the utility of a new discussion list focused on Evergreen systems administration. I think the topic is deep enough to warrant a list, and if this group is any indication there is also sufficient interest. Systems administration (troubleshooting server config issues, installing/setting up Evergreen, using git, performance tuning, network issues, cluster configuration, security, etc) seems to be an area that deserves it's own forum. I've received plenty of great help on those topics in IRC, which I'm very appreciative of, but let's face it - IRC is and probably always will be the domain of developers. I'm hoping that if enough people on this list express an interest that someone
[OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list?
Personally, I didn't envision a sys-admin group as a siloing but as an opportunity for sys-admins to work on best practices and things that may be redundant or repetitive on the dev list. I can easily see conversations about how do we maintain 2.1 because we don't want to upgrade to 2.2 and are there selective patches we can use, etc which are the kinds of conversations we don't see a lot of now. If the practice were to fork the community rather than grow the dialogues, which is to say, take away from dev useful conversations about how and why that inform development then I would be -1. Quoting W. Brad LaJeunesse b...@esilibrary.com: I agree with Ben. Obviously, if a certain community sub-group decides it wants to create their own mailing list, there is no Evergreen police to stop you, but I think doing so is a mistake. One of the strengths of the Evergreen community that I think we've worked at is the lack of formal boundaries between our stakeholder groups. This isn't a proprietary system where the developers are locked in a dungeon and you must speak through Swiss intermediaries. We're also a relatively small group and I think the last thing we should be doing is splitting our forces. I suggest keeping it together and using subject lines effectively. So, I agree with Ben's thoughts. I just saw Lebbeous's email and I agree with his points as well. --- W. Brad LaJeunesse | President | Equinox Software, Inc. / The Open Source Experts | phone: 1-877-OPEN-ILS (673-6457) | email: b...@esilibrary.com | web: http://www.esilibrary.com -Original Message- From: open-ils-general-boun...@list.georgialibraries.org [mailto:open-ils-general-boun...@list.georgialibraries.org] On Behalf Of Ben Shum Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 12:15 PM To: Evergreen Discussion Group Subject: [OPEN-ILS-GENERAL] ***SPAM*** Re: Should we have a systems administrators list? I'm -1 to this proposal. For many years, I've mused with other Evergreen system administrators on the issues facing our particular role and areas for discussion. The idea of making our own mailing list seemed like a good idea at many points in those discussions, and if you asked me a few years ago, I would have said yes. But here are some potential concerns I have now: While our role within our organizations may be to find the best practices for implementing/running an Evergreen system (and all the related areas of interest noted), we can also have a key role to play in Evergreen's overall development. As system administrators, we are often at the cutting edge of testing, bug reporting, and troubleshooting how Evergreen performs in the field. We can provide invaluable feedback to the Evergreen developers when we discuss our sys-admin issues in the existing lists / IRC. Creating a separate list introduces the possibility that more information can become lost between groups if people do not subscribe to every list. While of course, many of us would likely be signed up to these multiple lists and potentially act as representatives between groups, I do not like to see the burden of communication between various lists/groups to become a necessary conscious act on behalf of those subscribed to several lists. Like say for example: John Smith has an installation problem and mentions it only on the sys admin list. But it turns out to be an actual issue with the Evergreen code itself and we have to involve developers to get it fixed for everyone in the community. Do we then have to take the originally reported issue from the sys admin list and forward it to the dev list and discuss solutions? The extra time and potential for lost information/facts gives me concerns that having that extra layer of communication may prove unwieldy. Alternatively, what if someone posted a question to both mailing lists (sys admin and dev) and different people respond on each thread (based on whichever list they were subscribed) and the conversation becomes fractured between two lists? How does everything get put back together in a nice ordered way for the next generation of users searching for information / learning. To summarize, in my opinion, the system administrators while definitely having their own set of issues and topics of discussion are still a core part of the overall Evergreen development community and we should participate using the same areas for discussion such as the dev mailing list and IRC so that we don't miss anything or leave anything out of the mainstream Evergreen community. The main thing I would want to change at this point in time is perhaps the wording used to describe the dev mailing list to expand beyond just technical code/patches, but to be a broader description and reinforce the technical discussion list title. Unless of course, the developers tell us that they'd prefer to keep that list to talking only about real development only... ;) -- Ben On 4/30/2012 8:11 PM, Justin Hopkins wrote: We just wrapped up
