RE: Ordinal values without descriptions

[Bakke, Silje Ljosland]

Thanks for your replies everyone! As the scale does have descriptions for 
scores of 0,2, 4 and 6, I don’t think representing this as only a count would 
work. Perhaps Pablo’s suggestion is the best, even though it does mean changing 
the wording of the scale (arguably for the better).

Regards,
Silje

From: openEHR-technical [mailto:openehr-technical-boun...@lists.openehr.org] On 
Behalf Of pazospa...@hotmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 2:20 AM
To: Thomas Beale <thomas.be...@openehr.org>; openehr-technical@lists.openehr.org
Subject: Re: Ordinal values without descriptions


Following Thomas, I think for the missing descriptions you might need to put 
"between x and y" if x and y are available descriptions.



Sent from my LG Mobile

-- Original message--

From: Thomas Beale

Date: Tue, Apr 26, 2016 12:42

To: 
openehr-technical@lists.openehr.org<mailto:openehr-technical@lists.openehr.org>;

Subject:Re: Ordinal values without descriptions

If you give someone a '3' on the Apparent Sadness scale, what does it mean? 
Apparently it's between 'Looks dispirited but does brighten up without 
difficulty' and 'Appears sad and unhappy most of the time'

So now imagine that this '3' appears for me in my record - just that value. The 
scale doesn't tell you what it means. It probably should have a value like 
'Appears sad quite often' or similar. Instead, I would see nothing at all, and 
maybe I would know to go online and try to understand what 3 means by looking 
at the values for 2 and 4. Even in a paper record, the problem is the same.

At a technical level, the RM will does require a DV_CODED_TEXT. So one question 
is: considering that the set of texts for an ordinal is actually a set of 
terms, what does the term set look like? It must be value set with only 4 
members instead of 7.

Personally I think that scale is not ready for use in paper or electronic 
health record...

- thomas
On 26/04/2016 11:59, Bakke, Silje Ljosland wrote:
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Hi everyone,

We’re working on an archetype for the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating Scale 
(MADRS). This scale contains several ordinal values where there is no 
description, and some where there is no text at all. This doesn’t work very 
well in archetypes, and particularly when uploading to a CKM, because there’s 
an expectation that every field should be filled in, and the CKM will replace 
empty fields with * or sometimes *([language code]). Is there any way to get 
around this?

See here for what the MADRS looks like: http://www.psy-world.com/madrs.htm


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Re: Ordinal values without descriptions

[pazospablo]

  

Following Thomas, I think for the missing descriptions you might need to 
put "between x and y" if x and y are available descriptions.
Sent from my LG Mobile


-- Original message--From: Thomas BealeDate: Tue, Apr 26, 2016 12:42To: 
openehr-technical@lists.openehr.org;Subject:Re: Ordinal values without 
descriptionsIf you give someone a '3' on the Apparent Sadness scale, what   
   does it mean? Apparently it's between 'Looks dispirited  but does 
brighten up without difficulty' and 'Appears sad and  unhappy most of the 
time'So now imagine that this '3' appears for me in my record - just
  that value. The scale doesn't tell you what it means. It probably  should 
have a value like 'Appears sad quite often' or similar.  Instead, I would 
see nothing at all, and maybe I would know to go  online and try to 
understand what 3 means by looking at the values  for 2 and 4. Even in a 
paper record, the problem is the same.
At a technical level, the RM will does require a DV_CODED_TEXT.  So 
one question is: considering that the set of texts for an  ordinal is 
actually a set of terms, what does the term set look  like? It must be 
value set with only 4 members instead of 7.
Personally I think that scale is not ready for use in paper or  
electronic health record...- thomas
On 26/04/2016 11:59, Bakke, Silje  Ljosland wrote:
Hi everyone, We’re 
working on anarchetype for the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating 
Scale(MADRS). This scale contains several ordinal values where  
  there is no description, and some where there is no text at
all. This doesn’t work very well in archetypes, andparticularly 
when uploading to a CKM, because there’s anexpectation that every 
field should be filled in, and theCKM will replace empty fields 
with * or sometimes*([language code]). Is there any way to get 
around this? See here for what theMADRS looks like: 
http://www.psy-world.com/madrs.htm  
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Re: Ordinal values without descriptions

[Thomas Beale]

On 26/04/2016 19:54, David Moner wrote:
I will not discuss about the readiness of that particular scale. But 
un general words, we are very accustomed to scales where you have to 
answer "From 1 to 10, score your satisfaction with the service 
provided, with 1 meaning 'not satisfied at all' and 10 meaning 
'completely satisfied'". I guess that these kind of scales could also 
be used for recording some information in the EHR. In that case, the 
problem is that the DV_ORDINAL is not designed for those cases, but to 
assign a comparable value to descriptive texts. Maybe in your case, it 
is not a DV_ORDINAL but a Integer what you need to represent, and the 
texts are just hints about the sense of the score.


I think that is probably the best interpretation of this particular 
scale - a number from 1-10 (or a percentage), with an associated partial 
code set...


- thomas

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Re: Ordinal values without descriptions

[Ian McNicoll]

I would tend to agree with the suggestion to model this as a DV_COUNT
rather than a DV_ORDINAL.

Ian
On Tue, 26 Apr 2016 at 19:54, David Moner  wrote:

> I will not discuss about the readiness of that particular scale. But un
> general words, we are very accustomed to scales where you have to answer
> "From 1 to 10, score your satisfaction with the service provided, with 1
> meaning 'not satisfied at all' and 10 meaning 'completely satisfied'". I
> guess that these kind of scales could also be used for recording some
> information in the EHR. In that case, the problem is that the DV_ORDINAL is
> not designed for those cases, but to assign a comparable value to
> descriptive texts. Maybe in your case, it is not a DV_ORDINAL but a Integer
> what you need to represent, and the texts are just hints about the sense of
> the score.
>
> 2016-04-26 17:50 GMT+02:00 Diego Boscá :
>
>> Technically speaking it is in fact possible to create an alternative
>> of two different data types in a given attribute (say for example in
>> your use case, DV_ORDINAL (1,low) , DV_COUNT (2), DV_ORDINAL
>> (3,medium), DV_COUNT (4), DV_ORDINAL (5,high)).
>> In any case I agree with Thomas that this scale probably isn't ready
>> to be used yet in a EHR
>>
>> 2016-04-26 12:59 GMT+02:00 Bakke, Silje Ljosland
>> :
>> > Hi everyone,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We’re working on an archetype for the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression
>> Rating
>> > Scale (MADRS). This scale contains several ordinal values where there
>> is no
>> > description, and some where there is no text at all. This doesn’t work
>> very
>> > well in archetypes, and particularly when uploading to a CKM, because
>> > there’s an expectation that every field should be filled in, and the CKM
>> > will replace empty fields with * or sometimes *([language code]). Is
>> there
>> > any way to get around this?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > See here for what the MADRS looks like:
>> http://www.psy-world.com/madrs.htm
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Kind regards,
>> > Silje Ljosland Bakke
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Information Architect, RN
>> >
>> > Coordinator, National Editorial Board for Archetypes
>> > National ICT Norway
>> >
>> > Tel. +47 40203298
>> >
>> > Web: http://arketyper.no / Twitter: @arketyper_no
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > openEHR-technical mailing list
>> > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org
>> >
>> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org
>>
>> ___
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>> openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org
>>
>> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> David Moner Cano
> Grupo de Informática Biomédica - IBIME
> Instituto ITACA
> http://www.ibime.upv.es
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmoner
>
> Universidad Politécnica de Valencia (UPV)
> Camino de Vera, s/n, Edificio G-8, Acceso B, 3ª planta
> Valencia – 46022 (España)
> ___
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>
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Re: Ordinal values without descriptions

[David Moner]

I will not discuss about the readiness of that particular scale. But un
general words, we are very accustomed to scales where you have to answer
"From 1 to 10, score your satisfaction with the service provided, with 1
meaning 'not satisfied at all' and 10 meaning 'completely satisfied'". I
guess that these kind of scales could also be used for recording some
information in the EHR. In that case, the problem is that the DV_ORDINAL is
not designed for those cases, but to assign a comparable value to
descriptive texts. Maybe in your case, it is not a DV_ORDINAL but a Integer
what you need to represent, and the texts are just hints about the sense of
the score.

2016-04-26 17:50 GMT+02:00 Diego Boscá :

> Technically speaking it is in fact possible to create an alternative
> of two different data types in a given attribute (say for example in
> your use case, DV_ORDINAL (1,low) , DV_COUNT (2), DV_ORDINAL
> (3,medium), DV_COUNT (4), DV_ORDINAL (5,high)).
> In any case I agree with Thomas that this scale probably isn't ready
> to be used yet in a EHR
>
> 2016-04-26 12:59 GMT+02:00 Bakke, Silje Ljosland
> :
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> >
> >
> > We’re working on an archetype for the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating
> > Scale (MADRS). This scale contains several ordinal values where there is
> no
> > description, and some where there is no text at all. This doesn’t work
> very
> > well in archetypes, and particularly when uploading to a CKM, because
> > there’s an expectation that every field should be filled in, and the CKM
> > will replace empty fields with * or sometimes *([language code]). Is
> there
> > any way to get around this?
> >
> >
> >
> > See here for what the MADRS looks like:
> http://www.psy-world.com/madrs.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Silje Ljosland Bakke
> >
> >
> >
> > Information Architect, RN
> >
> > Coordinator, National Editorial Board for Archetypes
> > National ICT Norway
> >
> > Tel. +47 40203298
> >
> > Web: http://arketyper.no / Twitter: @arketyper_no
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > openEHR-technical mailing list
> > openEHR-technical@lists.openehr.org
> >
> http://lists.openehr.org/mailman/listinfo/openehr-technical_lists.openehr.org
>
> ___
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>
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-- 
David Moner Cano
Grupo de Informática Biomédica - IBIME
Instituto ITACA
http://www.ibime.upv.es
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmoner

Universidad Politécnica de Valencia (UPV)
Camino de Vera, s/n, Edificio G-8, Acceso B, 3ª planta
Valencia – 46022 (España)
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Re: Ordinal values without descriptions

[Diego Boscá]

Technically speaking it is in fact possible to create an alternative
of two different data types in a given attribute (say for example in
your use case, DV_ORDINAL (1,low) , DV_COUNT (2), DV_ORDINAL
(3,medium), DV_COUNT (4), DV_ORDINAL (5,high)).
In any case I agree with Thomas that this scale probably isn't ready
to be used yet in a EHR

2016-04-26 12:59 GMT+02:00 Bakke, Silje Ljosland
:
> Hi everyone,
>
>
>
> We’re working on an archetype for the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating
> Scale (MADRS). This scale contains several ordinal values where there is no
> description, and some where there is no text at all. This doesn’t work very
> well in archetypes, and particularly when uploading to a CKM, because
> there’s an expectation that every field should be filled in, and the CKM
> will replace empty fields with * or sometimes *([language code]). Is there
> any way to get around this?
>
>
>
> See here for what the MADRS looks like: http://www.psy-world.com/madrs.htm
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Silje Ljosland Bakke
>
>
>
> Information Architect, RN
>
> Coordinator, National Editorial Board for Archetypes
> National ICT Norway
>
> Tel. +47 40203298
>
> Web: http://arketyper.no / Twitter: @arketyper_no
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: Ordinal values without descriptions

[Thomas Beale]

If you give someone a '3' on the Apparent Sadness scale, what does it 
mean? Apparently it's /between /'Looks dispirited but does brighten up 
without difficulty' and 'Appears sad and unhappy most of the time'


So now imagine that this '3' appears for me in my record - just that 
value. The scale doesn't tell you what it means. It probably should have 
a value like 'Appears sad quite often' or similar. Instead, I would see 
nothing at all, and maybe I would know to go online and try to 
understand what 3 means by looking at the values for 2 and 4. Even in a 
paper record, the problem is the same.


At a technical level, the RM will does require a DV_CODED_TEXT. So one 
question is: considering that the set of texts for an ordinal is 
actually a set of terms, what does the term set look like? It must be 
value set with only 4 members instead of 7.


Personally I think that scale is not ready for use in paper or 
electronic health record...


- thomas

On 26/04/2016 11:59, Bakke, Silje Ljosland wrote:


Hi everyone,

We’re working on an archetype for the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression 
Rating Scale (MADRS). This scale contains several ordinal values where 
there is no description, and some where there is no text at all. This 
doesn’t work very well in archetypes, and particularly when uploading 
to a CKM, because there’s an expectation that every field should be 
filled in, and the CKM will replace empty fields with * or sometimes 
*([language code]). Is there any way to get around this?


See here for what the MADRS looks like: 
http://www.psy-world.com/madrs.htm




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RE: Ordinal values without descriptions

[Sebastian Garde]

Hi Silje,

If I read 
http://www.openehr.org/releases/RM/Release-1.0.3/docs/data_types/data_types.html#_dv_ordinal_class
 correctly, it seems to imply that the minimum you do is to give the text the 
same value as the ordinal value: "...which may be strings made from + symbols, 
or other enumerations of terms such as mild , moderate , severe , or even the 
same number series as the values, e.g. 1 , 2 , 3"
I personally think this is reasonable for cases like yours for the 'text'

Where it gets trickier is the corresponding 'description'.
While it seems to be the common convention that there is some sort of a 
description for each term in the ontology, but I don't think it is a 
requirement from the specs (is it?)
In cases like yours it seems reasonable to me to not have a description at all.

Currently, in CKM I believe you can only upload it with an empty description, 
but not completely without it.
If you have an empty description this would be displayed in square brackets 
without any content, which is technically correct, but a bit awkward: []

I am not aware that CKM is adding * with or without a language code on a simple 
upload.
But when you start translating an archetype inside CKM, it would add this as a 
marker to all non-translated bits and pieces once you save.

Here it may be reasonable to assume that if something is empty in the original 
language that then the translation doesn't need to be filled either and 
therefore CKM should not add the *(en) marker to it.

For CKM, I would suggest:

1.  Enable ARCHETYPE_TERMs completely without a description.

2.  Finetune the translation functionality in CKM to not add a *(en) marker 
or similar in the translation, if it is empty in the original language as well.
(but avoid empty texts in archetype terms, using the ordinal value as a minimum)

Regards
Sebastian


From: openEHR-technical [mailto:openehr-technical-boun...@lists.openehr.org] On 
Behalf Of Bakke, Silje Ljosland
Sent: Dienstag, 26. April 2016 12:59
To: openehr-technical@lists.openehr.org
Subject: Ordinal values without descriptions

Hi everyone,

We're working on an archetype for the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating Scale 
(MADRS). This scale contains several ordinal values where there is no 
description, and some where there is no text at all. This doesn't work very 
well in archetypes, and particularly when uploading to a CKM, because there's 
an expectation that every field should be filled in, and the CKM will replace 
empty fields with * or sometimes *([language code]). Is there any way to get 
around this?

See here for what the MADRS looks like: http://www.psy-world.com/madrs.htm

Kind regards,
Silje Ljosland Bakke

Information Architect, RN
Coordinator, National Editorial Board for Archetypes
National ICT Norway
Tel. +47 40203298
Web: http://arketyper.no / Twitter: 
@arketyper_no

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