XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-22 Thread Heath Frankel
Sam,
It is only safe if the attributes are primitive types.  However I think it
would be a good saving considering the current attributes.
 
Heath


  _  

From: openehr-technical-boun...@openehr.org
[mailto:openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org] On Behalf Of Sam Heard
Sent: Tuesday, 21 November 2006 11:09 PM
To: For openEHR technical discussions
Subject: Re: XML serializer (retry due to too large message)


Hi
We can add more attributes safely.which I think is all that could be
done without changing the model in a major manner, Sam

Mattias Forss wrote: 



2006/11/21, Sam Heard sam.heard at oceaninformatics.biz: 

The Ontology is so huge I have wondered about having the Text and
Description as attributes - it would save a lot of space and I do not think
it would complicate things at all.

What do others think?


Sounds like a good idea as long as the two parts (text, description) of the
description items will remain. If more parts are added though, it is not a
flexible solution.

Mattias



Cheers, Sam




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Adjunct Professor, Health Informatics, Central Queensland University
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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-21 Thread Mattias Forss
2006/11/21, Sam Heard sam.heard at oceaninformatics.biz:

 The Ontology is so huge I have wondered about having the Text and
 Description as attributes - it would save a lot of space and I do not think
 it would complicate things at all.

 What do others think?


Sounds like a good idea as long as the two parts (text, description) of the
description items will remain. If more parts are added though, it is not a
flexible solution.

Mattias

Cheers, Sam

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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-21 Thread Sam Heard
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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Heath Frankel
Mattias,
You don't seem to follow the AOM when generating your XML instances.  For
example, the C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE class has a property of 'members' which is
a list of C_OBJECT.  This property name should be used in the XML instance
so you would get:
 
attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE
members
item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
/members
/attributes
 
The alternative is to have the following but I suggest that members is not
quite right similar to your use of children below.
 
attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE
members xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../members
members xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../members
/attributes
 
I would also suggest that we should follow the AOM more closely and use an
existence element rather than minOccurs and maxOccurs.  What you are doing
by using the later is mimicking ADL rather than following the AOM.
Therefore you would get by following based on the openEHR RM for the
Interval type.

attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE
existence
lower xsi:type=xs:int1/lower
upper xsi:type=xs:int1/upper
...
/existence
members
item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
/members
/attributes
 
Regards
 
Heath

  _  

From: openehr-technical-boun...@openehr.org
[mailto:openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org] On Behalf Of Mattias Forss
Sent: Friday, 17 November 2006 8:16 AM
To: For openEHR technical discussions
Subject: Re: XML serializer (retry due to too large message)


Hi Andrew,
 
I looked at your example and I think it could be a good way to use xsi:type
to indicate sub-types where the number of children elements are specified to
be only one. This will mean that we don't need to add an extra sub-element,
e.g. description xsi:type=RESOURCE_DESCRIPTION (details here:
http://svn.openehr.org/specification/BRANCHES/Release-1.1-candidate/publishi
ng/its/XML-schema/documentation/Archetype.xsd.html_h439624612.html).
However, I don't think the XML schema specification of the AOM explicitly
state that xsi:type should be in XML archetypes. I would appreciate if
openEHR published some XML archetypes that exemplified the standard way to
express them. I don't like the idea of having several ways of representing
archetypes in XML so it would be nice if some examples were out to lead the
way. 
 
When there are more than one child inside an element, the idea with xsi:type
requires us to repeat the container element for each child instead of
placing all children inside a single container element, so you have
 
attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE minOccurs=1 maxOccurs=1
...
children xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../children
children xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../children
/attributes
 
instead of
 
attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE minOccurs=1 maxOccurs=1
...
children
C_COMLEX_OBJECT.../C_COMPLEX_OBJECT
C_COMLEX_OBJECT.../C_COMPLEX_OBJECT
/children
/attributes
 
The first example is of course more compact, but the element name children
doesn't make sense, since it doesn't contain all of the attribute's
children. The second example will collect all the children in one single
container element, but again, I don't know what the specification mean with
the occurrences brackets, e.g. what does [0..*] refer to in children
C_OBJECT
http://svn.openehr.org/specification/BRANCHES/Release-1.1-candidate/publish
ing/its/XML-schema/documentation/Archetype.xsd.html_h-1665829344.html
/children [0..*] ? Does it refer to the children element or to the
C_OBJECT element? This should be clarified. I have been dealing a lot with
ADL and I can say that the second example seems more plausible to me and I
see the children element equal to an attribute's matches {} in ADL. 
 
Any thoughts about this?
 
Regards,
 
Mattias
 
2006/11/16, Andrew Patterson andrewpatto at gmail.com: 

Hi Mattias, I've attached my attempt at a serialized adl instance - perhaps
we can converge on a consensus as to what they should look like! 

Mine is incomplete - especially around the ontology section - but I have
done the attributes and children nodes differently, using xsi:type to
indicate the sub-type. This is similar to the way Sam did the reference 
model serializations I saw, so I thought similar techniques would be
applied here.

Anyhow, I'm off on another project for a few weeks, but I thought I'd
send you this instance as food for thought.

Andrew


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[Norton AntiSpam] Re: XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Mattias Forss
Hi Heath,

I know that the C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE class has a property of 'members' in
the AOM (since I know the AOM very much in detail), but it's not in the XML
schema specification. I have not followed the AOM, because I thought I was
only supposed to look at the schema. Here's the XML schema and XML instance
of C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE with the property 'children' and not 'members' as in
the AOM:
http://svn.openehr.org/specification/BRANCHES/Release-1.1-candidate/publishing/its/XML-schema/documentation/Archetype.xsd.html_h783584366.html
.
If you could explain a bit more which strategy I should use when generating
XML instances I would be very grateful. It seems you suggest I should follow
the AOM more closely instead of the XML schema of AOM and its instance
representations.

By the way, your second example representation of 'members' is similar to
Andrew's example and not mine. I have one container element
called 'children', but no xsi:type specified. Where do you get the item
element name from? I can't find it neither in the XML schema nor the AOM.

Regards,

Mattias

2006/11/17, Heath Frankel heath.frankel at frankelinformatics.com:

  Mattias,
 You don't seem to follow the AOM when generating your XML instances.  For
 example, the C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE class has a property of 'members' which is
 a list of C_OBJECT.  This property name should be used in the XML instance
 so you would get:

  attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE
 members
 item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
 item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
 /members
 /attributes

 The alternative is to have the following but I suggest that members is not
 quite right similar to your use of children below.

   attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE
 members xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../members
 members xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../members
 /attributes

 I would also suggest that we should follow the AOM more closely and use an
 existence element rather than minOccurs and maxOccurs.  What you are doing
 by using the later is mimicking ADL rather than following the AOM.
 Therefore you would get by following based on the openEHR RM for the
 Interval type.

   attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE
  existence
 lower xsi:type=xs:int1/lower
 upper xsi:type=xs:int1/upper
 ...
 /existence
 members
 item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
 item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
 /members
 /attributes

 Regards

 Heath

  --
 *From:* openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org [mailto:
 openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org] *On Behalf Of *Mattias Forss
 *Sent:* Friday, 17 November 2006 8:16 AM
 *To:* For openEHR technical discussions
 *Subject:* Re: XML serializer (retry due to too large message)


  Hi Andrew,

 I looked at your example and I think it could be a good way to use
 xsi:type to indicate sub-types where the number of children elements
 are specified to be only one. This will mean that we don't need to add an
 extra sub-element, e.g. description xsi:type=RESOURCE_DESCRIPTION
 (details here:
 http://svn.openehr.org/specification/BRANCHES/Release-1.1-candidate/publishing/its/XML-schema/documentation/Archetype.xsd.html_h439624612.html).
 However, I don't think the XML schema specification of the AOM explicitly
 state that xsi:type should be in XML archetypes. I would appreciate if
 openEHR published some XML archetypes that exemplified the standard way to
 express them. I don't like the idea of having several ways of representing
 archetypes in XML so it would be nice if some examples were out to lead the
 way.

 When there are more than one child inside an element, the idea with
 xsi:type requires us to repeat the container element for each child instead
 of placing all children inside a single container element, so you have

  attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE minOccurs=1
 maxOccurs=1
 ...
 children xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../children
 children xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../children
 /attributes

 instead of

 attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE minOccurs=1
 maxOccurs=1
 ...
 children
 C_COMLEX_OBJECT.../C_COMPLEX_OBJECT
 C_COMLEX_OBJECT.../C_COMPLEX_OBJECT
 /children
 /attributes

 The first example is of course more compact, but the element name
 children doesn't make sense, since it doesn't contain all of the
 attribute's children. The second example will collect all the children in
 one single container element, but again, I don't know what the specification
 mean with the occurrences brackets, e.g. what does [0..*] refer to in
 children 
 C_OBJECThttp://svn.openehr.org/specification/BRANCHES/Release-1.1-candidate/publishing/its/XML-schema/documentation/Archetype.xsd.html_h-1665829344.html/children
  [0..*]
 ? Does it refer to the children element or to the C_OBJECT element? This
 should be clarified. I have been dealing a lot with ADL and I can

XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Andrew Patterson
Mattias,

the usage of xsi:type is solely because object hierarchies are being
used in the AOM. Using xsi:type allows serializers to know the type
they are getting before having to parse it in.. however, even without
xsi:type, your serialization would still not be correct for the xsd
given (i.e. let us pretend there is only a C_ATTRIBUTE, with no
subclasses). Any reference to an element of type C_ATTRIBUTE
in xml should result in an xml entry named by the 'element with
type C_ATTRIBUTE' i.e. 'children'. You never put type names into
the actual xml instances, merely element names. And for sequences,
this means repeating the xml entry name 'children' (augmented in
this case by an xsi:type to help with the subclasses).

Andrew
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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Andrew Patterson
 I know that the C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE class has a property of 'members' in
 the AOM (since I know the AOM very much in detail), but it's not in the XML
 schema specification. I have not followed the AOM, because I thought I was
 only supposed to look at the schema.

The AOM is at fault in this instance - the AOM has a field defined in
C_ATTRIBUTE called 'children', and then proceeds to rename this field
to 'attributes' and 'members' in the two subclasses C_SINGLE_ATTRIBUTE
and C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE. This of course is not really implementable
in any OO style language or XML.. the XML schema does the correct
thing and just defines 'children' in the base C_ATTRIBUTE class.

I have followed the XSD exactly in my serialization.. I believe the
intention is that the archetype XSD reflects the AOM model 1:1
(as much as possible). I see the archetype XSD as a formal
definition of the cotnent of the AOM document.

Andrew
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[Norton AntiSpam] RE: XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Heath Frankel
Mattias,
Sorry, I didn't realise this schema was available (I overlooked your
reference to it in your original email).  OK, so based on this schema the
instance is similar to my second example (but using children as the element
name rather than members) and your first example, which neither of us like
due to the plural nature of the element name for a singular element.  I
think we need to pass this feedback on to Sam and see if we can ensure that
the schema fully reflects the Reference Model including element names that
reflect model attribute names such as members and existence.  
 
The usual way a list is represented is a container with multiple items, this
is how I came up with this representation of a members element with item
child elements.  You are right in stating that this is not in the XML schema
or AOM, I was looking at this from first principles.  
 
Looking deeper into how the openEHR RM XML schemata represent containment, I
find that it has used the pattern suggested in the Archetype XML schema.
For example SECTION has element called items that is repeatable.  I guess we
need to continue with that pattern unless we change the openEHR RM XML
schemata as well.  The problem with changing this is that the openEHR paths
are designed to be compatible with XPath and converting a path such as
/content[openEHR-EHR-SECTION-findings.v1]/items[openEHR-EHR-OBSERVATION-labo
ratory.v1] into XPath and evaluating it will expect to have an XML element
called items within an element called content.
 
Therefore I suggest that based on the current XML schema your instance
should look like your first example:
 
attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE minOccurs=1 maxOccurs=1
...
children xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../children
children xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../children
/attributes
 
However, I would advocate that we should submit a change request to change
the schema to use the element name of members rather than children.  There
are probably other AOM alignments required.
 
Additionally I would like to see the use of an existence element of type
INTEGER_INTERVAL (i.e. INTERVALinteger) rather than minOccurs  maxOccurs.
Thoughts?
 
Heath


  _  

From: openehr-technical-boun...@openehr.org
[mailto:openehr-technical-bounces at openehr.org] On Behalf Of Mattias Forss
Sent: Friday, 17 November 2006 4:44 PM
To: For openEHR technical discussions
Subject: Re: XML serializer (retry due to too large message)


Hi Heath,
 
I know that the C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE class has a property of 'members' in
the AOM (since I know the AOM very much in detail), but it's not in the XML
schema specification. I have not followed the AOM, because I thought I was
only supposed to look at the schema. Here's the XML schema and XML instance
of C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE with the property 'children' and not 'members' as in
the AOM:
http://svn.openehr.org/specification/BRANCHES/Release-1.1-candidate/publishi
ng/its/XML-schema/documentation/Archetype.xsd.html_h783584366.html
http://svn.openehr.org/specification/BRANCHES/Release-1.1-candidate/publish
ing/its/XML-schema/documentation/Archetype.xsd.html_h783584366.html  . If
you could explain a bit more which strategy I should use when generating XML
instances I would be very grateful. It seems you suggest I should follow the
AOM more closely instead of the XML schema of AOM and its instance
representations. 
 
By the way, your second example representation of 'members' is similar to
Andrew's example and not mine. I have one container element called
'children', but no xsi:type specified. Where do you get the item element
name from? I can't find it neither in the XML schema nor the AOM. 
 
Regards,
 
Mattias
 
2006/11/17, Heath Frankel heath.frankel at frankelinformatics.com: 

Mattias,
You don't seem to follow the AOM when generating your XML instances.  For
example, the C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE class has a property of 'members' which is
a list of C_OBJECT.  This property name should be used in the XML instance
so you would get: 
 


attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE
members
item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
item xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../item
/members
/attributes
 
The alternative is to have the following but I suggest that members is not
quite right similar to your use of children below.
 


attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE
members xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../members
members xsi:type=C_COMPLEX_OBJECT.../members
/attributes
 
I would also suggest that we should follow the AOM more closely and use an
existence element rather than minOccurs and maxOccurs.  What you are doing
by using the later is mimicking ADL rather than following the AOM.
Therefore you would get by following based on the openEHR RM for the
Interval type. 
 


attributes xsi:type=at:C_MULTIPLE _ATTRIBUTE
existence
lower xsi:type=xs:int1/lower
upper xsi:type=xs:int1/upper
...
/existence
members 
item xsi:type

XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Mattias Forss
2006/11/17, Andrew Patterson andrewpatto at gmail.com:

  I know that the C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE class has a property of 'members'
 in
  the AOM (since I know the AOM very much in detail), but it's not in the
 XML
  schema specification. I have not followed the AOM, because I thought I
 was
  only supposed to look at the schema.

 The AOM is at fault in this instance - the AOM has a field defined in
 C_ATTRIBUTE called 'children', and then proceeds to rename this field
 to 'attributes' and 'members' in the two subclasses C_SINGLE_ATTRIBUTE
 and C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE. This of course is not really implementable
 in any OO style language or XML.. the XML schema does the correct
 thing and just defines 'children' in the base C_ATTRIBUTE class.


No, it proceeds to rename this field to 'alternatives' (not attributes) and
'members'.

I agree, that it's not OO style, but why isn't it implementable in XML? XML
isn't OO, it's just a way of storing structured information, and the guys
building the XML parsers to create the AOM objects again can probably deal
with that. But since the AOM is OO I guess it wouldn't be a bad idea if the
contents of the XML instances were in OO style.

Mattias

I have followed the XSD exactly in my serialization.. I believe the
 intention is that the archetype XSD reflects the AOM model 1:1
 (as much as possible). I see the archetype XSD as a formal
 definition of the cotnent of the AOM document.

 Andrew
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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Bert Verhees
Bert Verhees schreef:
 Mattias Forss schreef:
   
 Well, I'm no expert on XSD since I never cared about learning it... 
 but if I go back to your example, why didn't you use xsi:type in some 
 places, for example: 
 
 I don't know if you ever saw this site, I did, it was helpful
   
http://www.w3schools.com/schema/default.asp

(forgot ;-)
 Bert
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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Bert Verhees
Mattias Forss schreef:
 Well, I'm no expert on XSD since I never cared about learning it... 
 but if I go back to your example, why didn't you use xsi:type in some 
 places, for example: 
I don't know if you ever saw this site, I did, it was helpful

Bert
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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Andrew Patterson
 I agree, that it's not OO style, but why isn't it implementable in XML? XML
 isn't OO, it's just a way of storing structured information, and the guys
 building the XML parsers to create the AOM objects again can probably deal
 with that.

The use of complexType with extensions in XSD follows the OO
model. So if it has a field called 'children' in C_ATTRIBUTE, that
field is going to be in all in extensions - called 'children'.. if those
sub classes also define a similar field, then they will have two
fields. I just presumed that the AOM had a textual mistake
(whilst the 'alternatives' and 'members' are more correct descriptions
of the attribute, they technically are still 'children' so I don't see
a problem with them having that inherited field and using it to
store alternatives and members respectively).

Andrew
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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Andrew Patterson
 go back to your example, why didn't you use xsi:type in some places, for
 example:

 description
 original_author
 item ...

 Is you used it here it would be:

 description xsi:type=RESOURCE_DESCRIPTION
 original_author xsi:type=hashTableStringString
 item xsi:type=dictionaryItem ...

because there are no doubts about the actual type of
'description' (i.e. it has no subclasses), when the
serialiazer gets to the 'description' node. it knows
what to expect. If we had a RESOURCE_DESCRIPTION_EXTENDED
complexType that was based on RESOURCE_DESCRIPTION,
then we would need to use xsi:type.

Andrew
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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Mattias Forss
2006/11/17, Heath Frankel heath.frankel at frankelinformatics.com:

  The AOM is at fault in this instance - the AOM has a field
  defined in C_ATTRIBUTE called 'children', and then proceeds
  to rename this field to 'attributes' and 'members' in the two
  subclasses C_SINGLE_ATTRIBUTE and C_MULTIPLE_ATTRIBUTE. This
  of course is not really implementable in any OO style
  language or XML.. the XML schema does the correct thing and
  just defines 'children' in the base C_ATTRIBUTE class.
 
  I have followed the XSD exactly in my serialization.. I
  believe the intention is that the archetype XSD reflects the
  AOM model 1:1 (as much as possible). I see the archetype XSD
  as a formal definition of the cotnent of the AOM document.
 
 Oh, so that's why I got confused why members was implemented as a method
 rather than an attribute, I didn't make the correlation between members
 and
 children (perhaps I should have read the words rather than just the
 picture
 :).


Oops, I also missed that it was a function :-)

Maybe the specs could distinct attributes, functions, etc with different
coloring.


In that case, the XML schema does not require a change request for this
 issue.  I would still like to explore the use of an existence element
 rather
 than minOccurs and maxOccurs attributes.  I don't see why existence and
 occurrences in C_OBJECT are treated differently.  And then I think the
 interval_of_integer type should use elements lower and upper as per the
 Interval assumed type specified in the openEHR Support package.


Agree

Mattias

Heath

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[Norton AntiSpam] Re: XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Mattias Forss
2006/11/17, Bert Verhees bert.verhees at rosa.nl:

  Bert Verhees schreef:

 Mattias Forss schreef:

  Well, I'm no expert on XSD since I never cared about learning it...
 but if I go back to your example, why didn't you use xsi:type in some
 places, for example:

  I don't know if you ever saw this site, I did, it was helpful

  http://www.w3schools.com/schema/default.asp

 (forgot ;-)


Yes, the tutorials by W3 schools are nice, but most often not as detailed as
one might wish.

//Mattias

Bert
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XML serializer (retry due to too large message)

2006-11-17 Thread Mattias Forss
Andrew,

In your example, you have the other_contributors element even when it has no
children, but the schema specification says that it's optional, i.e.
other_contributors
list_of_stringhttp://svn.openehr.org/specification/BRANCHES/Release-1.1-candidate/publishing/its/XML-schema/documentation/Archetype.xsd.html_h-2045140803.html/other_contributors
[0..1].
Shouldn't you discard that element when the list of contributors is empty?

/Mattias

2006/11/16, Andrew Patterson andrewpatto at gmail.com:

   description
 other_contributors /
 lifecycle_stateAuthorDraft/lifecycle_state

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