Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Gary gdri...@gmail.com wrote: But there's an enormous, tedious history of butthurt when it comes to giving back to a BSD project. There's more than ten years of whining about OS X. and several more about OpenBSD, OpenSSH, etc. The reality is that these projects can get bent out of shape and demand support but there's no recourse. Yes, and you don't have to read the mailing lists long to realize that some of the butthurt goes the other way. Some of those projects are notoriously hard to contribute to if you're not already part of the inner circle. The *BSDs OS's, in particular, are known for being hostile to outside contributors. -- David Brodbeck System Administrator, Linguistics University of Washington ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
Folks, I got on board the OI boat seriously back in April. I love it. It has pushed me to learn a lot about Solaris as an OS and certain technologies (like SAS, SCSI) that probably wouldn't have had a place on the Mac I sold. I want to work with it and use it in solutions I propose to Vet clinics and the like. I am not a programmer (I do some basic Ruby and shell scripting), so I wouldn't really know how to help with code, but I'd like to help with the website and wiki. Can I help, and if so, how do I get started? Bryan On 09/ 5/12 05:21 AM, Jan Owoc wrote: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Magnus mag...@yonderway.com wrote: On Sep 4, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: I expect that this became available in oi_151a_prestable5 (however, oi_151a_prestable6 is out today!). I'm looking at http://dlc.openindiana.org/isos/ and it looks like 151a5 is the latest available to the public right now. oi_151a_prestable6 AKA oi_151a6 is a bug and security fix release. This is not an ISO release. [1] Making an ISO image takes time, so tends to happen every 2-3 releases. You need to install prestable5 and then upgrade. [1] http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/oi_151a_prestable6+Release+Notes Does this require the end user to do anything special, or should it just work when installing OI? Right now some other Illumos distros are not handling these drives well at all yet. My drive is coming up as WDC WD2002FAEX-0 revision 1D05. I don't think the drive's model number or revision will change with a system update. I don't know whether it detects sector size or simply uses ashift=12 always (using 4k data sectors on a 512b drive doesn't exactly have downsides). Either way it shouldn't require any manual user intervention. Some drives behave by reporting 4k sectors (not sure about yours specifically), and then even OI 151a (what I used) created a pool with ashift=12 when needed. root@openindiana:~# zdb -C rpool | grep ashift ashift: 9 root@openindiana:~# zdb -C tankz2 | grep ashift ashift: 12 root@openindiana:~# uname -a SunOS openindiana 5.11 oi_151a4 i86pc i386 i86pc Solaris Jan ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Jan Owoc wrote: I don't think the drive's model number or revision will change with a system update. I don't know whether it detects sector size or simply uses ashift=12 always (using 4k data sectors on a 512b drive doesn't exactly have downsides). Either way it shouldn't require any manual There is a downside to using 4k sectors on 512b drives. Quite a lot more space may be wasted because zfs's smallest consumed data size (e.g. for metadata) is one sector. At least two copies are made of any metadata. If you use smaller zfs blocks (than the default 128k) and/or a large number of files, you will be wondering what happened to your disk space. For huge drives this is not much of an issue. It is definitely an issue for SSDs, which usually offer much less space per drive. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
I certainly hope you are right. But I also hope you are aware of survival bias that may color your past experiences. It is very easy to look at the successful projects that have managed to survive over the years in retrospect while forgetting about those project that died and fell into oblivion. I guess it should come to no surprise that most people who use open source software don't care. Probably the vast majority don't know about Alasdair Lumsden's resignation, let alone that he exists. That's why one should take into consideration that for every 100 or so new users 2-5 of them may eventually start contributing and developing for Illumos. I think incentives such as career opportunities and other things that make Illumos and OpenIndiana look cool should be important to stress. Perhaps it would be possible to convince the freeNAS people to use Illumos/OpenIndana instead. On 2012-09-01 16:48, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. OpenIndiana is still very young. Successful OS distributions take quite a few years to become significant. It is not something which happens in just a couple of years. Bob ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
Is it really necessary to convince the freeNAS people to change? Mark Creamer's response to the thread, Multiple Windows servers and a OI NAS, how to get there seems to point to a simpler solution. Offer as an install time option a configuration of OI w/ ZFS as a file server in a mixed MacOS, Windows *nix environment. That as an out of box packaged solution ought to generate a good bit of interest in OI/Illumos. I don't do Windows, but from what I understand, everything is already available if you know how to configure it. That would leave just a good HCL as an obstacle to wider use of OI. Some judicious choices of new SATA SAS drivers would ease much of the hardware problems. Some visible momentum would help persuade hardware vendors to support the development of drivers for OI/Illumos. Have Fun! Reg --- On Tue, 9/4/12, Robin Axelsson gu99r...@student.chalmers.se wrote: From: Robin Axelsson gu99r...@student.chalmers.se Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Date: Tuesday, September 4, 2012, 9:13 AM I certainly hope you are right. But I also hope you are aware of survival bias that may color your past experiences. It is very easy to look at the successful projects that have managed to survive over the years in retrospect while forgetting about those project that died and fell into oblivion. I guess it should come to no surprise that most people who use open source software don't care. Probably the vast majority don't know about Alasdair Lumsden's resignation, let alone that he exists. That's why one should take into consideration that for every 100 or so new users 2-5 of them may eventually start contributing and developing for Illumos. I think incentives such as career opportunities and other things that make Illumos and OpenIndiana look cool should be important to stress. Perhaps it would be possible to convince the freeNAS people to use Illumos/OpenIndana instead. On 2012-09-01 16:48, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. OpenIndiana is still very young. Successful OS distributions take quite a few years to become significant. It is not something which happens in just a couple of years. Bob ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Tue, 4 Sep 2012 08:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Reginald Beardsley pulask...@yahoo.com wrote: Offer as an install time option a configuration of OI w/ ZFS as a file server in a mixed MacOS, Windows *nix environment. That will require a better groomed Netatalk package SMF manifest. Right now that's a slightly messy thing to set up. Administration right now between NFS, SMB, AFP requires a mix of command line expertise. To be at all competitive with FreeNAS would demand some consideration of a management interface. That as an out of box packaged solution ought to generate a good bit of interest in OI/Illumos. I don't do Windows, but from what I understand, everything is already available if you know how to configure it. Most of the file sharing goodies come free with ZFS, except for AFP (would make a dandy ZFS feature, though!) That would leave just a good HCL as an obstacle to wider use of OI. The issues with modern/pervasive 4K sector disks on Illumos may also stifle adoption. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
+1 Maybe 1 dedicated ISO build to be installed on the HP Microserver which has pre-installed: 1. napp-it (creating networkshares and manage Harddisks at ease) 2. SMTP/POP3 servers with smart configuration scripts so a user can create a mailserver at ease 3. CUPS scripts for printer sharing If you take the HP microserver and stick 4x 1 TB drives and 2x2 GB in it, you have a great performing small office appliance for less than € 800,- This way you will create a worldwide rumor about a new and lightning fast OS. It will attract new (business) users. After this more basic ISO's can be developed for other hardware. OI runs out-of-the box on the Microserver hardware. I own a HP Microserver and it performs extremely well. It is used as a newsgroup reader, NFS server, Windows user-profile storage, mailserver, printerserver and more. -Original Message- From: Reginald Beardsley [mailto:pulask...@yahoo.com] Sent: dinsdag 4 september 2012 17:02 To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns Is it really necessary to convince the freeNAS people to change? Mark Creamer's response to the thread, Multiple Windows servers and a OI NAS, how to get there seems to point to a simpler solution. Offer as an install time option a configuration of OI w/ ZFS as a file server in a mixed MacOS, Windows *nix environment. That as an out of box packaged solution ought to generate a good bit of interest in OI/Illumos. I don't do Windows, but from what I understand, everything is already available if you know how to configure it. That would leave just a good HCL as an obstacle to wider use of OI. Some judicious choices of new SATA SAS drivers would ease much of the hardware problems. Some visible momentum would help persuade hardware vendors to support the development of drivers for OI/Illumos. Have Fun! Reg --- On Tue, 9/4/12, Robin Axelsson gu99r...@student.chalmers.se wrote: From: Robin Axelsson gu99r...@student.chalmers.se Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Date: Tuesday, September 4, 2012, 9:13 AM I certainly hope you are right. But I also hope you are aware of survival bias that may color your past experiences. It is very easy to look at the successful projects that have managed to survive over the years in retrospect while forgetting about those project that died and fell into oblivion. I guess it should come to no surprise that most people who use open source software don't care. Probably the vast majority don't know about Alasdair Lumsden's resignation, let alone that he exists. That's why one should take into consideration that for every 100 or so new users 2-5 of them may eventually start contributing and developing for Illumos. I think incentives such as career opportunities and other things that make Illumos and OpenIndiana look cool should be important to stress. Perhaps it would be possible to convince the freeNAS people to use Illumos/OpenIndana instead. On 2012-09-01 16:48, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. OpenIndiana is still very young. Successful OS distributions take quite a few years to become significant. It is not something which happens in just a couple of years. Bob ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: That would leave just a good HCL as an obstacle to wider use of OI. The issues with modern/pervasive 4K sector disks on Illumos may also stifle adoption. I am unware of 4K sector disk issues in Illumos. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
That will require a better groomed Netatalk package SMF manifest. Right now that's a slightly messy thing to set up. This to some extent goes back to something I've been talking about recently. The current version of netatalk (v3) is actually excellent on OI. NetAFP added cross-protocol file locking with the native CIFS client and netatalk will use ZFS xattrs to store Mac xattrs.The actual problem has turned out to be the Windows integration, because it's either: -Modify the AD schema or use IDMU (making changes to AD is really not popular in a lot of Windows environments) -Use ephemeral UIDs NetAFP managed to get ephemeral UIDs working with netatalk, but then they saw an ephemeral UID change while a user was logged in (from the existing documentation that seems possible - but there appears to be no actual definitive documentation stating either way - which is another problem in itself). This changing UID broke netatalk quite badly. From my point of view both Mac OS X and Linux have far better methods for integrating with Active Directory (without making changes to AD) - and the lack of that in OI is a big turn-off for a lot of Windows admins. OI with netatalk is an awesome AFP server, but for ease-of-deployment the AD integration is a big hurdle, and I think that really needs looking at because AD is so common it's too big to be ignored (which is why Apple spent so much time with the AD plugin for OS X - which is frighteningly easy to setup). James. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Tue, 4 Sep 2012 10:53:10 -0500 (CDT), Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us wrote: I am unware of 4K sector disk issues in Illumos. http://wiki.openindiana.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4883847 ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, mag...@yonderway.com wrote: On Tue, 4 Sep 2012 10:53:10 -0500 (CDT), Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us wrote: I am unware of 4K sector disk issues in Illumos. http://wiki.openindiana.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=4883847 Most significantly, the issue was RESOLVED four months ago. Unfortunately, George Wilson did not update the bug entry correctly so it is still shown as 0% done even though the issue was resolved. I expect that this became available in oi_151a_prestable5 (however, oi_151a_prestable6 is out today!). Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Sep 4, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: I expect that this became available in oi_151a_prestable5 (however, oi_151a_prestable6 is out today!). Hi Bob, I'm looking at http://dlc.openindiana.org/isos/ and it looks like 151a5 is the latest available to the public right now. Does this require the end user to do anything special, or should it just work when installing OI? Right now some other Illumos distros are not handling these drives well at all yet. My drive is coming up as WDC WD2002FAEX-0 revision 1D05. Thanks, Magnus ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Magnus mag...@yonderway.com wrote: On Sep 4, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: I expect that this became available in oi_151a_prestable5 (however, oi_151a_prestable6 is out today!). I'm looking at http://dlc.openindiana.org/isos/ and it looks like 151a5 is the latest available to the public right now. oi_151a_prestable6 AKA oi_151a6 is a bug and security fix release. This is not an ISO release. [1] Making an ISO image takes time, so tends to happen every 2-3 releases. You need to install prestable5 and then upgrade. [1] http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/oi_151a_prestable6+Release+Notes Does this require the end user to do anything special, or should it just work when installing OI? Right now some other Illumos distros are not handling these drives well at all yet. My drive is coming up as WDC WD2002FAEX-0 revision 1D05. I don't think the drive's model number or revision will change with a system update. I don't know whether it detects sector size or simply uses ashift=12 always (using 4k data sectors on a 512b drive doesn't exactly have downsides). Either way it shouldn't require any manual user intervention. Some drives behave by reporting 4k sectors (not sure about yours specifically), and then even OI 151a (what I used) created a pool with ashift=12 when needed. root@openindiana:~# zdb -C rpool | grep ashift ashift: 9 root@openindiana:~# zdb -C tankz2 | grep ashift ashift: 12 root@openindiana:~# uname -a SunOS openindiana 5.11 oi_151a4 i86pc i386 i86pc Solaris Jan ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. It is not have to be fancy, but GUI is absolutely necessary. Well, I am an average-Joe in UNIX world (development for Windows is another story), but I am administering a small university web server. I was trying different kinds of sever operating systems, and all were disappointing for me for various reasons. Quite quickly I came to OpenSolaris (there were times of 2008.05 version). It was *love at first boot*. I saw that marketing phrase later and wondered how apt it is. That feel was not only because of solid performance which inspires confidence, but also because of GUI. Now I am a happy user of OpenIndiana. OpenIndiana does not have to compete with OS X or Windows in desktop market. But it *should* have a decent GUI even for server market. I am an average-Joe, remember? You want me to use vi and all those tambourine dances? No, thanks. GUI was once invented to make OS interaction easier. Ditching it leads us back to medieval ages. This is why e.g. Illumian distribution was not a success. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
Secondly I find it incredibly hard to start developing things on the operating system. I may be irrelevant here, but there are rapid application development tools in modern computing world. One of them could be packaged for OpenIndiana. I am talking about Lazarus - a RAD environment for Free Pascal compiler. Having Lazarus for OpenIndiana would provide an easy-to-follow path for Windows developers who want to develop for UNIX. See http://lazarus.freepascal.org/ and http://wiki.freepascal.org/Lazarus_on_Solaris . ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
Open Indiana wrote: I guess i sparked this discussion about the GUI. Thanks for that. I cannot ignore GUI discussion. most people that call OI a stupid OS are the people that only use a GUI to do things. ;-) +1 :))) 1. Who wants to help develop OI? I want. But unfortunately I do not have time nor skills. Answering only to reflect (common?) sad situation. 2. What skills do you (the voter) have that can help OI? Development for Windows skills. Doubt it can help. 3. What kind of software do you want to have running on OI? Apache - already running. vsftpd - running on my server, though installed from 3rd party repository. Lazarus - dreaming to try, but have no time/skills to install it on one of my OpenIndiana machines. 4. What kind of hardware/drivers do you want to have running on OI? None currently, besides those which are already running. Hardware? Network cards. But when I will change my server hardware... I afraid I will need more drivers. 5. Have you ever created a HOWTO for OI? If YES where is it? Have collected some other's HOWTO for personal use. 6. Have you ever found a useful HOWTO for OI? If YES where is it? Yes. E.g. how to setup a static IP address. Cannot remember the source. Storing on my PC. 7. Have you ever created a useful software package for OI? If YES where is it? I wish I could... 8. Do you use OI in a commercial environment? Production environment (web server). Not commercial though. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
Open Indiana wrote: It's not that OI doesn't have to have a GUI, it's only that not all settings have to be set OVER a GUI. Of course it needs a decent GUI, but that doesn't imply that you can change/alter anything without getting deeper and into the commandline. Totally agreed. Though I am advocating GUI, I always can use commandline where needed. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
Michael Stapleton wrote: The future of OI is on the server, and it should have a usable GUIinterface. But in my opinion, trying to support every Desktop application is a bit futile. Exactly. ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns - next steps
See comments below, in-line. Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 11:29:48 +0200 From: Open Indiana openindi...@out-side.nl To: 'Discussion list for OpenIndiana' openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns Message-ID: 001a01cd88ed$7f8ebce0$7eac36a0$@nl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I guess i sparked this discussion about the GUI. Not that I want a GUI, but if you read the comments on Alasdair Lumsden resign then most people that call OI a stupid OS are the people that only use a GUI to do things. ;-) But based on the number of reactions on this subject I fear that there a just a very few OI users. Or the rest must have been sleeping the last days. So I would suggest that we start some kind of voting/.. somewhere on the internet. Maybe in this mailgroup or on the OI website. I suggest the following questions: 1. Who wants to help develop OI? I would be interested. 2. What skills do you (the voter) have that can help OI? Documentation, Web Upkeep, How-To's, Scripting, Packaging 3. What kind of software do you want to have running on OI? Nothing, Can't get OI to run on any hardware available to me. 4. What kind of hardware/drivers do you want to have running on OI? V100, V120, V240, UltraSPARC 60, an Intel laptop. 5. Have you ever created a HOWTO for OI? If YES where is it? As soon as I can find a load which works, I can start. 6. Have you ever found a useful HOWTO for OI? If YES where is it? No. 7. Have you ever created a useful software package for OI? If YES where is it? No. Only created large software systems under Solaris 10 for internal facing user communities 8. Do you use OI in a commercial environment? I would if OI would run under UltraSPARC systems. There is a market for OI, if it keeps Solaris 10 software compatibility. Especially if OI will run under an LDOM, since Oracle will not be moving Solaris 10 forward and various ISV's are showing disinterest in supporting Solaris 11 due to the high-barrier to entry (all new hardware of every kind in the Oracle product suite.) OI just has to look like Solaris 10 and get new features to remain relevant. 9. There must be more useful questions that I forget. But if we start to gather the above information we already have more (centralized) than we have right now. How about: 9. Does OI need to concentrate on being a hypervisor? Run which operating systems? Yes, run Solaris 9, Solaris 10, Windows, Various Linux, maybe other SVR4 operating systems on other architectures. 10. What features would make OI compelling? - Shared-nothing clustered ZFS fileyststem with Lustre or some other clustering technology. - Solaris 10 Compatibility, to woo ISV's who refuse to develop for Solaris 11. - Development track which is disjoint from Solaris, concentrate on moving SVR4 packaging forward, so previous development resources are not wasted on fixing IPS bugs/incompatibilities, making possible future source code releases (how ever unlikely that is) able to easily integrate, and making it easier to integrate OI developments upstream. - Leverage a simple, already existing, well defined management environment like FMLI, so one group can create CUI management interfaces, and another group of individuals can create port FMLI (XFMLI [again], WebFMLI, AJAX like interfaces, etc.) so all short term work can be later leveraged. Conclusions: An OS is useless unless there is a market for it and it fulfills a market need. Someone needs to decide what the market is, who the customers are (i.e. user community), what other market elements it facilitates (i.e. software vendors), who will pay for it (i.e. funding source), and what the roadmap is to make it more relevant in the future to ever expanding groups of consumers (i.e. any market that is not expanding is contracting - new markets must always be courted and not denied.) Thanks, David http://svr4.blogspot.com/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
I guess i sparked this discussion about the GUI. Not that I want a GUI, but if you read the comments on Alasdair Lumsden resign then most people that call OI a stupid OS are the people that only use a GUI to do things. ;-) But based on the number of reactions on this subject I fear that there a just a very few OI users. Or the rest must have been sleeping the last days. So I would suggest that we start some kind of voting/.. somewhere on the internet. Maybe in this mailgroup or on the OI website. I suggest the following questions: 1. Who wants to help develop OI? 2. What skills do you (the voter) have that can help OI? 3. What kind of software do you want to have running on OI? 4. What kind of hardware/drivers do you want to have running on OI? 5. Have you ever created a HOWTO for OI? If YES where is it? 6. Have you ever found a useful HOWTO for OI? If YES where is it? 7. Have you ever created a useful software package for OI? If YES where is it? 8. Do you use OI in a commercial environment? 9. There must be more useful questions that I forget. But if we start to gather the above information we already have more (centralized) than we have right now. -Original Message- From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us] Sent: zaterdag 1 september 2012 16:48 To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. OpenIndiana is still very young. Successful OS distributions take quite a few years to become significant. It is not something which happens in just a couple of years. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. +1. Precisely. -- Dave Koelmeyer http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. +1. Precisely. I totally agree. However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and window manager on my server. I personally would prefer a simple window manager over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to go with these. I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test sitting in the home office on the opposite coast. Our clients still have a large investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this builds and runs on a Solaris variant. Some of the apps can launch external programs, so it determines whether it should use gnome-open, etc. to choose the appropriate application. I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and test it on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out to the build farm broken and make everyone unhappy. I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services on an old V20z. I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which stores mail for each user With all of this, I seldomly tax it's resources. I do, however use this to build and test to make sure that it properly compiles and runs my applications. This has saved me countless of re-spins do to compiler or library issues. Without X-windows and some WM, I would no longer be able to use this machine that way and would have to take the hit for breaking Solaris builds. I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc efforts. However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive broken. It also has that funky PXE graphics card. I got around the NIC by putting a fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked up a replacement DVD drive. I was hoping to not only use it for testing, but to use it to help the SPARC OI efforts but it still requires X-windows and WM to be useful for me. I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product development. Gary ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
It's not that OI doesn't have to have a GUI, it's only that not all settings have to be set OVER a GUI. Of course it needs a decent GUI, but that doesn't imply that you can change/alter anything without getting deeper and into the commandline. -Original Message- From: Gary Gendel [mailto:g...@genashor.com] Sent: zondag 2 september 2012 16:53 To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. +1. Precisely. I totally agree. However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and window manager on my server. I personally would prefer a simple window manager over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to go with these. I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test sitting in the home office on the opposite coast. Our clients still have a large investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this builds and runs on a Solaris variant. Some of the apps can launch external programs, so it determines whether it should use gnome-open, etc. to choose the appropriate application. I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and test it on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out to the build farm broken and make everyone unhappy. I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services on an old V20z. I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which stores mail for each user With all of this, I seldomly tax it's resources. I do, however use this to build and test to make sure that it properly compiles and runs my applications. This has saved me countless of re-spins do to compiler or library issues. Without X-windows and some WM, I would no longer be able to use this machine that way and would have to take the hit for breaking Solaris builds. I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc efforts. However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive broken. It also has that funky PXE graphics card. I got around the NIC by putting a fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked up a replacement DVD drive. I was hoping to not only use it for testing, but to use it to help the SPARC OI efforts but it still requires X-windows and WM to be useful for me. I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product development. Gary ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
Would not webmin be a good fit? Develop good modules for webmin to manage OI with. Mike On Sun, 2012-09-02 at 17:02 +0200, Open Indiana wrote: It's not that OI doesn't have to have a GUI, it's only that not all settings have to be set OVER a GUI. Of course it needs a decent GUI, but that doesn't imply that you can change/alter anything without getting deeper and into the commandline. -Original Message- From: Gary Gendel [mailto:g...@genashor.com] Sent: zondag 2 september 2012 16:53 To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. +1. Precisely. I totally agree. However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and window manager on my server. I personally would prefer a simple window manager over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to go with these. I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test sitting in the home office on the opposite coast. Our clients still have a large investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this builds and runs on a Solaris variant. Some of the apps can launch external programs, so it determines whether it should use gnome-open, etc. to choose the appropriate application. I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and test it on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out to the build farm broken and make everyone unhappy. I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services on an old V20z. I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which stores mail for each user With all of this, I seldomly tax it's resources. I do, however use this to build and test to make sure that it properly compiles and runs my applications. This has saved me countless of re-spins do to compiler or library issues. Without X-windows and some WM, I would no longer be able to use this machine that way and would have to take the hit for breaking Solaris builds. I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc efforts. However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive broken. It also has that funky PXE graphics card. I got around the NIC by putting a fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked up a replacement DVD drive. I was hoping to not only use it for testing, but to use it to help the SPARC OI efforts but it still requires X-windows and WM to be useful for me. I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product development. Gary ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
This assumes that there will never be remote user access (vnc, etc.) to do development work that uses a GUI interface. So you can't have SunRay type capabilities or even do simple things like web page development on that box (without gimp or some other graphics capability). Basically all development would require a non-illumos box. I currently can do this with VNC using my tablet or laptop which has saved my tail a number of times when I'm on the road since I'm not allowed to have proprietary data with me when I travel. On 9/2/12 11:47 AM, Michael Stapleton wrote: Would not webmin be a good fit? Develop good modules for webmin to manage OI with. Mike On Sun, 2012-09-02 at 17:02 +0200, Open Indiana wrote: It's not that OI doesn't have to have a GUI, it's only that not all settings have to be set OVER a GUI. Of course it needs a decent GUI, but that doesn't imply that you can change/alter anything without getting deeper and into the commandline. -Original Message- From: Gary Gendel [mailto:g...@genashor.com] Sent: zondag 2 september 2012 16:53 To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. +1. Precisely. I totally agree. However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and window manager on my server. I personally would prefer a simple window manager over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to go with these. I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test sitting in the home office on the opposite coast. Our clients still have a large investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this builds and runs on a Solaris variant. Some of the apps can launch external programs, so it determines whether it should use gnome-open, etc. to choose the appropriate application. I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and test it on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out to the build farm broken and make everyone unhappy. I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services on an old V20z. I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which stores mail for each user With all of this, I seldomly tax it's resources. I do, however use this to build and test to make sure that it properly compiles and runs my applications. This has saved me countless of re-spins do to compiler or library issues. Without X-windows and some WM, I would no longer be able to use this machine that way and would have to take the hit for breaking Solaris builds. I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc efforts. However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive broken. It also has that funky PXE graphics card. I got around the NIC by putting a fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked up a replacement DVD drive. I was hoping to not only use it for testing, but to use it to help the SPARC OI efforts but it still requires X-windows and WM to be useful for me. I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product development. Gary ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
I have been developing a virtualization product that runs on OI, It's written in Java but uses ZFS and Comstar so the server side has to be Iluminos/Solaris11 based. For me, development and testing has been much more efficient by running OI on my workstations and laptops. When I'm traveling, I can still build and test because my laptop is running OI. I could use VMs for testing, but rather not if I don't have to. The fact that OI is usable as a workstation has been great and I would not be happy to see it go away. If it does, I will likely have to switch to Solaris 11 to Build and test my software. Microsoft owns the desktop market because it owns the desktop market. Uses run Windows because the programs they need run on Windows. Developers develop for windows because the Users are running Windows. Hardware vendors write drivers for Windows because the computers are running Windows. It does not matter how great of a desktop OI is, it will never break the Windows cycle. The real threat to Windows is cloud services. The Microsoft Lock in might be broken when the applications Users use no longer depend on the desktop OS, But when that happens it also will mean that the great services OI provides will be irrelevant on a desktop. If there is one niche market I can see for OI as a desktop, it is in Trusted Extensions. The future of OI is on the server, and it should have a usable GUI interface. But in my opinion, trying to support every Desktop application is a bit futile. Mike On Sun, 2012-09-02 at 10:52 -0400, Gary Gendel wrote: On 9/2/12 7:23 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: On 2/09/12 02:48 AM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. +1. Precisely. I totally agree. However, I selfishly want an X-windows server and window manager on my server. I personally would prefer a simple window manager over a the heavyweight Gnome/KDE camps but there are reasons to go with these. I develop GUI based applications and have just about one of every Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows OS and version running to do build and test sitting in the home office on the opposite coast. Our clients still have a large investment with Solaris 9/10 so it is important that this builds and runs on a Solaris variant. Some of the apps can launch external programs, so it determines whether it should use gnome-open, etc. to choose the appropriate application. I telecommute, so when I make code changes I like to first build and test it on a cross section of platforms locally so I don't ship it out to the build farm broken and make everyone unhappy. I run router/firewall/file-share/backup/web/imap,web,smtp mail services on an old V20z. I have over 10 TB of mirrored zfs storage on which stores mail for each user With all of this, I seldomly tax it's resources. I do, however use this to build and test to make sure that it properly compiles and runs my applications. This has saved me countless of re-spins do to compiler or library issues. Without X-windows and some WM, I would no longer be able to use this machine that way and would have to take the hit for breaking Solaris builds. I recently picked up an Enterprise 450 when I heard of the OI Sparc efforts. However, it came with the internal NIC and the DVD drive broken. It also has that funky PXE graphics card. I got around the NIC by putting a fiberchannel card in and a SX to TX converter, and picked up a replacement DVD drive. I was hoping to not only use it for testing, but to use it to help the SPARC OI efforts but it still requires X-windows and WM to be useful for me. I can't believe that I'm the only one that uses OI to do GUI product development. Gary ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
Although Openindiana is opensource it doesn't mean it doesn't need any steering or control. My main concern is who will take up the flag and carry it? The people who think OpenIndiana is a dead end have IMHO no idea what it is. They apparently expect an OS with a GUI that lets them control anything and they forget that on all OS's one has to leave the GUI at one point as soon as there is a need that goes deeper than starting a writer-application. Even Windows2008 still has a scripting and commandline facility. Someone or some people have to take control on a roadmap and set a course. Where do we want to go and what will we build? If hosting ever starts to be a problem I will jump in. But... with the recession on its way all over the world, people have to work harder and have not as much spare time as they used to have. When someone needs to choose between his work or an OpenSource hobby the choose is easy. -Original Message- From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us] Sent: vrijdag 31 augustus 2012 21:00 To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing for OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and rock on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, but I would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job. The main risk at the moment is that OpenIndiana is hosted on Alasdair's servers and openindiana.org is owned by EveryCity Ltd (i.e. Alasdair's company). The servers and domain are still running but there is no telling about the future. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
While I don't have a clue about what userbase OpenIndiana has and how widespread it is, there are some things I see that don't look good for OI. First of all I find it to be poorly marketed. The website is updated almost never and it looks like nothing is happening, there are no roadmaps, the documentation on the site is improving but still has some considerable lacks. A website that looks poorly maintained with empty menus doesn't look good at all. The website should put a much greater effort at marketing itself and show what OI/Illumos can really do. We're talking about statements such as ZFS is leading technology ... and rich illustrations so that even less versed people will understand it. The design of a website also communicate the quality of the product. It may sound a little vainglorious to some people but that's how it works in real life. Secondly I find it incredibly hard to start developing things on the operating system. If I for example want to get started with contributing by porting a Linux graphics driver to OI/Illumos, where do I begin? How do I get the compilers to work with me without errors and how do I troubleshoot them? Or in short . where is the *documentation* for it? I think there should be an open door that lets new people in and makes it easier to get started developing for OI/Illumos. Right now it looks like a closed community with a very high barrier of entry for those outside that are willing to develop for OI/Illumos. If this problem gets fixed then maybe userland applications that are necessary for a desktop OS will eventually find their way into the OS for those people who want to use it as a desktop OS. I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Another weak point of the OS is hardware support. While I understand that it might be a tremendously daunting undertaking to maintain hardware support for everything there is out there, on can strategically focus on key hardware components. My personal pet peeve with OI is the poor support for my AMD/ATI GPU, otherwise I think I think it is a good thing that there is a focus on HBA and NIC hardware, i.e. hardware that is essential for it to function as a file/webserver as was stated in a prior post. But the most important thing is that it is well documented so that a user who wants to start using OI will know *beforehand* what hardware to use. On 2012-09-01 12:06, Open Indiana wrote: Although Openindiana is opensource it doesn't mean it doesn't need any steering or control. My main concern is who will take up the flag and carry it? The people who think OpenIndiana is a dead end have IMHO no idea what it is. They apparently expect an OS with a GUI that lets them control anything and they forget that on all OS's one has to leave the GUI at one point as soon as there is a need that goes deeper than starting a writer-application. Even Windows2008 still has a scripting and commandline facility. Someone or some people have to take control on a roadmap and set a course. Where do we want to go and what will we build? If hosting ever starts to be a problem I will jump in. But... with the recession on its way all over the world, people have to work harder and have not as much spare time as they used to have. When someone needs to choose between his work or an OpenSource hobby the choose is easy. -Original Message- From: Bob Friesenhahn [mailto:bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us] Sent: vrijdag 31 augustus 2012 21:00 To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing for OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and rock on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, but I would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job. The main risk at the moment is that OpenIndiana is hosted on Alasdair's servers and openindiana.org is owned by EveryCity Ltd (i.e. Alasdair's company). The servers and domain are still running but there is no telling about the future. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
--- On Sat, 9/1/12, Robin Axelsson gu99r...@student.chalmers.se wrote:
From: Robin Axelsson gu99r...@student.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
To: openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org
Date: Saturday, September 1, 2012, 7:27 AM
While I don't have a clue about what
userbase OpenIndiana has and how widespread it is, there are
some things I see that don't look good for OI.
First of all I find it to be poorly marketed. The website is
updated almost never and it looks like nothing is happening,
there are no roadmaps, the documentation on the site is
improving but still has some considerable lacks. A website
that looks poorly maintained with empty menus doesn't look
good at all. The website should put a much greater effort at
marketing itself and show what OI/Illumos can really do.
We're talking about statements such as ZFS is leading
technology ... and rich illustrations so that even less
versed people will understand it. The design of a website
also communicate the quality of the product. It may sound a
little vainglorious to some people but that's how it works
in real life.
It's quite a lot of work to do what you're asking for. Commercial companies
(e.g. IBM, RH, Suse) are spending a lot of money on staff to fund this on
Linux. The corresponding source of funding for OpenSolaris was Sun. OI came
into existence when Oracle withdrew support for OpenSolaris and closed the code.
The remaining players in the OpenSolaris community don't have the deep pockets
needed to do everything and must choose carefully what they do. The rest is
volunteers. If you see something you think needs improvement work on it.
Secondly I find it incredibly hard to start developing
things on the operating system. If I for example want to get
started with contributing by porting a Linux graphics driver
to OI/Illumos, where do I begin? How do I get the compilers
to work with me without errors and how do I troubleshoot
them? Or in short . where is the *documentation* for it?
I think there should be an open door that lets new people in
and makes it easier to get started developing for
OI/Illumos. Right now it looks like a closed community with
a very high barrier of entry for those outside that are
willing to develop for OI/Illumos. If this problem gets
fixed then maybe userland applications that are necessary
for a desktop OS will eventually find their way into the OS
for those people who want to use it as a desktop OS.
There is a small mountain of documentation. Whether it's still as accessible as
it used to be I don't know. I assembled a local copy of all the Sun docs long
ago.
There is inevitably a high barrier to entry for someone who wants to port a
device driver from one OS to another. It requires a good understanding of two
complex systems and the physical device. That is never going to be easy. In
many instances it may be easier to write a new driver from scratch.
As for developing on Solaris generally, it's not noticeably different from any
other Unix derived system other than being a good bit more polished. This not
quite as true for OI, but it's hard for me to understand what issues you're
having in that area. It is not the same as Gnu/Linux, but that is because
tradition and compatibility are given far higher precedence in Solaris. The
big objection long time SunOS users have to Gnu/Linux is arbitrary changes to
command line option semantics and syntax.
Changes like new vs old awk are a big deal in large systems environments. Sun
made new awk nawk. IBM which came to the Unix wars late, made old awk oawk and
new awk awk. Gnu/Linux made gawk awk.
It's trivially easy to interpose a sym link or shell script in your path to
erase such differences so that a common model works everywhere. This was how I
dealt w/ working on Sun, SGI, DEC, HP, Intergraph, Alliant, Intel, IBM and
other systems simultaneously via an X terminal and a common home directory
mounted via NFS. My PATH started w/ ${HOME}/${ARCH}: and whenever I
encountered a variation from common practice I made the appropriate adjustments.
Complex programs like compilers and linkers don't have a common set of features
and options. So the foregoing will not work for them. However, gcc works on
Solaris, so basic compiling should not be an issue.
As for being able to compile and link a simple program. All systems seem to
have moved to not installing development tools be default. There are several
different package installation tools for Gnu/Linux so being generally able to
administer and configure any Gnu/Linux box you encounter requires familiarity
w/ several tool sets.
I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is
the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes
(including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a
fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would
encourage the average-Joe
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Robin Axelsson wrote: I'm fully aware of the power of the command line and it is the command line that really makes me like Unix based OSes (including Linux). But making OI look well-polished with a fancy and easy to administer web-admin GUI that would encourage the average-Joe to use it as a home-NAS / virtual server is not a bad thing. That way OI would reach a higher penetration with a larger user-base and most importantly; it will get _free advertising_. To some extent the old adage A good product markets itself has some truth in it. But it must not only be good, it has to /look/ good so that even a less versed person will understand how good it is. Focusing on issues like this would be putting the cart before the horse. It is more important to be able to easily build everything and incorporate updates than to have a fancy configuration GUI. OI popularity should come second to correct functionality and having an organization (of volunteers and corporate entities) to sustain it. If OI is worthy, popularity will follow, even if only from people who already preferred Solaris. OpenIndiana is still very young. Successful OS distributions take quite a few years to become significant. It is not something which happens in just a couple of years. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On 31/08/12 01:10 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: And the farewell message (if you can call it that) here: http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/ http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/thread.html has the original message and responses on the developer list. Interesting, although I can't post to that list. It's sad and disappointing and understandable and all that for the project lead to quit, but seriously: waking up this morning to read without warning that I was a bonehead for ever considering OpenIndiana, and that the hours, and hours, and hours I dedicated to evangelizing OpenIndiana was actually stupid because at the end of the day Linux is good enough? Well, I sincerely hope *this* is final: From: Alasdair Lumsden alasdairrr-AT-gmail.com To: oi-dev-AT-openindiana.org ...I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity. -- Dave Koelmeyer http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
OH MY GOD This is to bad to be true. Do I really read people writing down that they have seen Linux outperform Solaris? I spent over a decade developing big data software, primarily on Solaris. I have seen workloads that bring a 64-core Solaris box to its knees with massively multi-threaded, big-memory footprint applications. Linux handled the same load with aplomb. I have seen this too! It happened while Solaris created all the threads it needed for the process and Linux just emulated some multithreading and by that handled every piece one or two threads at a time. Linux didn't break, but it just took 1000x times longer to process. But back to the main problem. We have no president of the core at this moment. This means that the last piece of resistance against the commercials will start to crumble. It is a true nightmare that the hard work of a lot of volunteers and the people of the old Sun company dies because it has been sucked empty by the commercial snakes. How Is it possible that companies can take opensource-code, wrap a commercial GUI around it, close/disable most of the opensource features and then sell it as a unique product? I am not a programmer but a enthusiast user/admin of Solaris 10, OpenIndiana and Solaris 11. I also use Windows 2003, Windows 2008 Datacenter and OpenSuse11 in projects. The things I can do with OpenIndiana and Solaris 10, the way they perform with websites and MySQL databases have I never seen on any other platform. Ok, there is a lot of hardware that will not run OpenIndiana out of the box, and Openindiana is a bit difficult to use, update and alter. And yes, it has a steep learningcurve and because of that there is a need for solid documentation. But there was a lot of documentation, this could be found at the old SUN site, but Oracle has changed and almost secured their documentsites so there are fewer resources for that. The main question now are: Who wants to be the President? Do we want to start a sort of election? Who wants to lead this project through the battlefield? -Original Message- From: Dave Koelmeyer [mailto:dave.koelme...@davekoelmeyer.co.nz] Sent: vrijdag 31 augustus 2012 8:32 To: Discussion list for OpenIndiana Subject: Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns On 31/08/12 01:10 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: And the farewell message (if you can call it that) here: http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/ http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/thread.html has the original message and responses on the developer list. Interesting, although I can't post to that list. It's sad and disappointing and understandable and all that for the project lead to quit, but seriously: waking up this morning to read without warning that I was a bonehead for ever considering OpenIndiana, and that the hours, and hours, and hours I dedicated to evangelizing OpenIndiana was actually stupid because at the end of the day Linux is good enough? Well, I sincerely hope *this* is final: From: Alasdair Lumsden alasdairrr-AT-gmail.com To: oi-dev-AT-openindiana.org ...I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity. -- Dave Koelmeyer http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On 08/31/2012 08:31 AM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: On 31/08/12 01:10 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: And the farewell message (if you can call it that) here: http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/ http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/thread.html has the original message and responses on the developer list. Interesting, although I can't post to that list. It's sad and disappointing and understandable and all that for the project lead to quit, but seriously: waking up this morning to read without warning that I was a bonehead for ever considering OpenIndiana, and that the hours, and hours, and hours I dedicated to evangelizing OpenIndiana was actually stupid because at the end of the day Linux is good enough? People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing for OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and rock on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, but I would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job. Cheers, -- Saso ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On 31/08/12 07:31 PM, Sašo Kiselkov wrote: People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing for OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and rock on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, but I would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job. Cheers, -- Saso Agreed, but I just wish he didn't have to pour fuel on the fire before he did. It's just incredibly poor form. Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on it. -- Dave Koelmeyer http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:30 AM, Open Indiana openindi...@out-side.nl wrote: It is a true nightmare that the hard work of a lot of volunteers and the people of the old Sun company dies because it has been sucked empty by the commercial snakes. How Is it possible that companies can take opensource-code, wrap a commercial GUI around it, close/disable most of the opensource features and then sell it as a unique product? In the Free Software world there are two approaches to licensing: A) copyleft - if you use my code, you legally must make it available. If you don't want to give back, you will likely avoid my code entirely and write your own. B) permissive (non-copyleft) - use my code for whatever purpose you want. You are more likely to use my code if you have the choice whether or not to give back, but I may never see changes/improvements. The GNU Project argues (almost) everything should be licensed as A. The *BSDs argue (almost) everything should be licensed as B. The CDDL is somewhere in between. NB: just because you are using a copyleft license still doesn't mean the people using your code must work with you; they could create a fork and ignore you, only publishing the code as a whole when they have a finished product (apparently Android was doing this with the Linux kernel). Using a permissive license almost guarantees you'll never see code back (I wonder how much OSX gave back to BSD?). I don't know of a free software license that would require that downstream vendors cooperate with you. The only way is to have a charismatic individual who will talk with the vendor's execs and convince them that it's in our mutual best interest to cooperate. The main question now are: Who wants to be the President? Do we want to start a sort of election? Who wants to lead this project through the battlefield? Was there ever an election to the OI Governing Council, or has the document not been updated? http://wiki.openindiana.org/oi/Human+Resources Jan ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012, Jan Owoc wrote: NB: just because you are using a copyleft license still doesn't mean the people using your code must work with you; they could create a fork and ignore you, only publishing the code as a whole when they have a finished product (apparently Android was doing this with the Linux kernel). Using a permissive license almost guarantees you'll never see code back (I wonder how much OSX gave back to BSD?). This topic has been beaten to death a million times over. You can't throw a rock without hitting a BSD licensed project that's been repurposed for a commercial venture. That's /why/ the devs chose that license in the first place. But there's an enormous, tedious history of butthurt when it comes to giving back to a BSD project. There's more than ten years of whining about OS X. and several more about OpenBSD, OpenSSH, etc. The reality is that these projects can get bent out of shape and demand support but there's no recourse. The CDDL is its own beast designed to offer something from both worlds (GNU BSD) but I still get the impression that few outside of this community actually understand it despite several FAQs and list archives of explanations. -Gary ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing for OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and rock on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, but I would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job. The main risk at the moment is that OpenIndiana is hosted on Alasdair's servers and openindiana.org is owned by EveryCity Ltd (i.e. Alasdair's company). The servers and domain are still running but there is no telling about the future. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
I'm also sad to hear that* *Alasdair Lumsden has resigned as lead of the project. I was greatly heartened when Alasdair first announced the project and have been using OI ever since the early releases on both my personal laptop and as my new work desktop (my other work desktop is Solaris 10/SPARC). I wish that he had not been so down on the viability of OI in his resignation letter, but I can certainly understand the rant given the frustrations he was dealing with. After reading though the OI-dev thread I have to say that I hope that Garret D'Amore is not correct in the assertion that OI (or any other Illumos/opensolaris derived distribution with a graphical front end userland) is a dead end. I work with a Solaris or OI desktop every day and yes, there are many things that would be nice to have, but the argument that we just give up and use Apple laptops or whatnot as our front-end systems seems a bit defeatist and reminds me of what we went through in Unix land back when Windows NT first arrived in the data centre. In my workplace we are still using some SPARC desktop applications on aging Sun SPARC workstations and Tadpole laptops. We also utilize Sun Ray technology extensively in our training environment. (As an aside, I remember talking to Garrett back when he was working for Tadpole/General Dynamics about specing out a Tadpole purchase for our portable Sun Ray training classroom). Our production servers are all running Solaris 10 (SPARC) and there are a couple of Solaris 11 (x86) servers I'm looking to bring online soon. I was hoping to complete our migration of our desktop apps to OI running on x86 for out in the field, but I suppose we could just continue on that road to a Linux desktop if we have to. In theory we could run our Sun Ray clients on a Linux server although I have not tried setting that up. I'm not sure how much help Oracle would be willing to provide if we were not running Oracle Linux. I would prefer to remain in the Solaris/Illumos/OI world though. - Ron On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 3:31 AM, Dave Koelmeyer dave.koelme...@davekoelmeyer.co.nz wrote: On 31/08/12 01:10 PM, Alan Coopersmith wrote: On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: And the farewell message (if you can call it that) here: http://lwn.net/Articles/**514046/ http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/ http://openindiana.org/**pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/**thread.htmlhttp://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/thread.htmlhas the original message and responses on the developer list. Interesting, although I can't post to that list. It's sad and disappointing and understandable and all that for the project lead to quit, but seriously: waking up this morning to read without warning that I was a bonehead for ever considering OpenIndiana, and that the hours, and hours, and hours I dedicated to evangelizing OpenIndiana was actually stupid because at the end of the day Linux is good enough? Well, I sincerely hope *this* is final: From: Alasdair Lumsden alasdairrr-AT-gmail.com To: oi-dev-AT-openindiana.org ...I have no wish to return to the project in a leadership capacity. -- Dave Koelmeyer http://www.davekoelmeyer.co.nz __**_ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@**openindiana.orgOpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/**mailman/listinfo/openindiana-**discusshttp://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us wrote: People come and go, that's just a fact of life. The important thing for OpenIndiana now is to get over it, select a new project lead and rock on. We are all just as saddened as you are to see Alasdair leave, but I would hope OpenIndiana was never just a single-person job. The main risk at the moment is that OpenIndiana is hosted on Alasdair's servers and openindiana.org is owned by EveryCity Ltd (i.e. Alasdair's company). The servers and domain are still running but there is no telling about the future. Alasdair, in his letter, wrote: I will continue, through EveryCity, to provide hosting for OpenIndiana's infrastructure. I also hope that a new project lead will step forward to look after things, and that they can carry the project forward. If no viable new lead steps forward then I would encourage the OpenIndiana developers to hand responsibility for it over to the Illumos Foundation. I think that the larger problem is for the community to set some attainable goals, and continues to deliver on them. I don't think finding hosting will be a problem (whether EverCity continues to host it or not). Jan ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On 08/31/2012 09:22 PM, Ron Dawson wrote: In my workplace we are still using some SPARC desktop applications on aging Sun SPARC workstations and Tadpole laptops. We also utilize Sun Ray technology extensively in our training environment. (As an aside, I remember talking to Garrett back when he was working for Tadpole/General Dynamics about specing out a Tadpole purchase for our portable Sun Ray training classroom). Our production servers are all running Solaris 10 (SPARC) and there are a couple of Solaris 11 (x86) servers I'm looking to bring online soon. I was hoping to complete our migration of our desktop apps to OI running on x86 for out in the field, but I suppose we could just continue on that road to a Linux desktop if we have to. In theory we could run our Sun Ray clients on a Linux server although I have not tried setting that up. I'm not sure how much help Oracle would be willing to provide if we were not running Oracle Linux. I would prefer to remain in the Solaris/Illumos/OI world though. I think you hit one area where, as garrett described, Illumos and OI could excel: desktop virtualization. It's all the rage these days due to reduced management issues and added security. Sun had a solution for just this market ages ago with the Sun Ray range of products. OI should take a good long look at these areas, because we could use the core Illumos technologies to really kick commercial VDI infrastructures in the teeth with at least the following: *) Much, much, much lower overhead when compared to VDI. A VDI machine needs loads of DRAM, loads of disk IO capacity and consequently is a very expensive proposition. OI can run VDI instances either natively or isolated in zones and provide excellent performance (potentially orders of magnitude better than VMware or other kinds of traditional heavy-weight VMs). *) ZFS for file management, built-in backups, rollbacks, and just a sweet bundle of win for the VDI market. *) A very secure and well managed software environment with local IPS repos, DTrace for solving performance issues and just generally much better control over the environment than that provided by closed black-box products). Anyway, just my $0.02 Cheers, -- Saso ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
Now we are talking! I have been deploying Sun Rays for over 14 years. It is a perfect solution and it needs rock solide virtualisation to handle the large numbers of VMs. ZFS and Comstar features would be great to use. I am hoping that the next version of Oracle VDI/Sun Ray software supports Solaris 11 and Comstar. With OpenIndiana as a drop in replacement for Solaris 11 it should also be possible to run this version on Openindiana. So I need Openindiana to be around at that time guys! Kind regards, Ivar Sašo Kiselkov schreef: I think you hit one area where, as garrett described, Illumos and OI could excel: desktop virtualization. It's all the rage these days due to reduced management issues and added security. Sun had a solution for just this market ages ago with the Sun Ray range of products. OI should take a good long look at these areas, because we could use the core Illumos technologies to really kick commercial VDI infrastructures in the teeth with at least the following: *) Much, much, much lower overhead when compared to VDI. A VDI machine needs loads of DRAM, loads of disk IO capacity and consequently is a very expensive proposition. OI can run VDI instances either natively or isolated in zones and provide excellent performance (potentially orders of magnitude better than VMware or other kinds of traditional heavy-weight VMs). *) ZFS for file management, built-in backups, rollbacks, and just a sweet bundle of win for the VDI market. *) A very secure and well managed software environment with local IPS repos, DTrace for solving performance issues and just generally much better control over the environment than that provided by closed black-box products). Anyway, just my $0.02 Cheers, -- Saso ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
Re: [OpenIndiana-discuss] OpenIndiana lead Alasdair Lumsden resigns
On 08/30/12 06:08 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote: And the farewell message (if you can call it that) here: http://lwn.net/Articles/514046/ http://openindiana.org/pipermail/oi-dev/2012-August/thread.html has the original message and responses on the developer list. -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@oracle.com Oracle Solaris Engineering - http://blogs.oracle.com/alanc ___ OpenIndiana-discuss mailing list OpenIndiana-discuss@openindiana.org http://openindiana.org/mailman/listinfo/openindiana-discuss
