Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
On 6/6/12 4:30 PM, Brianna wrote: let me remind you OpenSim is not SL.. as such start with a fresh script using X and ODE. over the past years I have seen most vehicle types duplicated by the vehicle creators with and without the vehicle functions. to call the difference a bug is not addressing the solutions. I know that OpenSim is not Sl, I am starting with fresh scripts. I would love to talk to someone who has made an airplane work. Did they find a way to disable the squashing of the Z component of the linear motor? Did they do the hack I suggested of using hover height to replace the missing linear motor Z values? And when the airplane pitches or rolls, the local Z axis decouples from the region Z axis and the angular motor should start acting strange. Did they discover that the angular motor vector must be multiplied by llGetRot() like I did? And why didn't they document this for the next guy? ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
On 6/6/12 12:48 AM, Bengt Falke wrote:
I am also interested in physics for vehicles mainly for creating
working yacht and for making my free moving scripted animals to work
in a smooth way.
If there is a way I can contribute I will try to do so.
Also at the recent OpenSim developers meeting, Andrew Hellershanks
said (about llSetTImerEvent minimum time limits) Not sure why you would
want to use something other [less] than 1.0. I think the developers
need to know that there are 1000's of scripters in SL DESPERATELY trying
to find ANY WAY to make simple things like a fish move smoothly through
the water at a constant velocity. In SL you can usually get timer()
events as often as once every 0.2 seconds, which is not quite often
enough for smooth looking motion. timer events more often would be one
way to get smoother looking motion. I've seen people write scripts that
had abominations like: while (1) { moveit(); llSleep(0.05); } The
OpenSim developers need to throw these guys a bone so they will NOT DO
THAT HERE!
Of course, LL only recently threw them the llSetKeyframedMotion()
bone. Before that, people tried to use physics and llMoveToTarget()
which was NEVER DESIGNED TO GENERATE LINEAR MOTION (it is always
damped). Although you can play games with it and find reasonably linear
portions of the curve. But that requires accurate llSetTimerEvent
durations to stop the llMoveToTarget part way through a damped move. And
in OpenSim, llMoveToTarget is damped 9 times faster than SL (mantis
issue 5968) which requires pushing it nine times harder to try to
capture a linear section and even more accurate llSetTimerEvent times to
prevent the object from running away from you...
The only other way in SL (before llSetKeframedMotion) to get
something to move smoothly at a constant velocity is to make it a
vehicle. Which is sort of like using a 4 ton hydrolic press to insert
thumbtacks in a cork board. And even in SL, the vehicle functions are
really squirrely.
So the major reason I am testing the OpenSim vehicle routines is to
see if I can find a reliable subset of them, or a set of workarounds,
that will allow me to move a fish smoothly through the water at a
constant velocity.
So far I have found a few problems and some workarounds:
1) Vehicles crash and burn at the sim boundary, the workaround is to add
code to detect the sim boundary before the vehicle gets there and
prevent it from even getting close. But if llSetTimerEvent is not
accurate, if your timer() event is not called regularly to do this
check, the vehicle runs into the sim boundary and goes crazy.
2) The angular motor rotates around the wrong axes, but you can
workaround that by multiplying your vectors by llGetRot (mantis issue
6039). I'm guessing that nobody noticed this before because cars and
boats and helicopters are usually horizontal and their local Z axis is
aligned with the region Z axis.
3) The linear motor vector is clamped or projected onto the region XY
plane. (mantis issue 6040) A car or a boat or a helicopter might never
notice this, but with no Z values allowed in linear motors, how can
airplanes glide up or down? Someone please tell me how to get this to work!
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Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
On 6/6/12 9:24 AM, Kevin Cozens wrote: I'm somewhat interested in vehicle scripting as some of the issues may be related to other movement related issues I have when I try to make some fireworks. It would also be good to have fixed so I could use my flying sleigh at Christmas time. :-) My helicopter hack that uses the mantis issue 6039 behavior to good advantage might do the trick for your sleigh. I'm cleaning it up and posting it on the osgrid scripting forum soon, look for it there or contact me back channel. I have a fireworks script from SL. It seems to be almost working. The problem I see is that when the main script tries to launch the firework projectile, the vertical velocity requested in the llRezObject call is ignored. The projectile moves slightly in the X and Y directions a small amount (less than expected), then explodes. The lack of vertical motion sounds similar to the problem mentioned above with vehicle scripts. This does sound similar and would create a smaller simpler test program to demonstrate the bug! Nobody can argue that the velocity of a rezzed object should be squashed into the XY plane and not allowed to have a Z component! ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
This is getting more and more interesting for each post on the subject.. I think it would be a good thing to collect all the relevant information about physics and scripting in the forum so it is available to all struggling with this. Are there still active work going on with ODE or are our only option to find ways around the problems or hope for the Bullet engine? I saw in another post a reference to a OSGrid scripting forum and I assume it is this section you are referring to (please correct me if I am wrong): http://forums.osgrid.org/viewforum.php?f=5sid=d584d594240e0917e41480491af385ec That might anyhow be a good place to post in. Void Pipe ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
I've been working with vehicle scripting on opensims now for over 4 years. There are lots of historical scripts I have written or adapted from the work of others, or collaborated on with others in the OSgrid scripting forums. These include sailing scripts, automobile scripts, and yes, even a helicopter script. Dave Coyle said over three years ago that my helicopter was the most satisfying vehicle he'd ever seen on an opensim'. In fact, Owen Oyen and I produced the first vehicles on OSgrid *without any vehicle functions at all*. These were sailboats that entirely simulated 'sailboat physics' using llSetRot, llGetRot, llApplyImpulse and friends. The boat was clunky, did not heel, moved in anything but a smooth fashion, and was hell on the simulation. My more 'modern' boats can be found on Littlefield region on OSgrid, as well as a historical display documenting the work on the aquavita. The working copies of the boats are in a vendor; those sitting at the dock have had the scripts ripped out to reduce lag on the sim, don't take copies of those. Later (much later than that boat, the 'Aquavita), I worked extensively with Kitto Flora to get ODE implemetations of such vehicle scripting functions working as work now. The work is imperfect, but not all of the problems are with ODE proper; some have to do with various math functions' implementation in opensim, and how they differ from the same math functions as implemented in SL under havoc. The short story is, LL's functions are broken in terms of how physics actually dictates real-world objects behave; and the same functions are incomplete here, as the developers who worked on them refused to implement the broken math, and no resolution could be reached among the devs as to how to proceed, so the functions on opensims are incomplete and/or unfinished. All of this is more or less ancient history. I've got many very simple test objects needed to reproduce these errors as test cases in inventory on the grid, and related mantis entries filed, but quite frankly they've been ignored for so long I lost interest a couple years back and haven't really bothered with vehicles since. Who wants to sail a boat that doesn't heel? Who want's to fly an airplane that has no inertia if a vector component is on the z-axis? Not to mention, incoming physics 'fixes' often break the workarounds, with no explanation of how to take advantage of the improvements. It's really discouraging to be told about your now non-functional helicopter you've been using for most of a year that 'those vehicle functions never really worked anyway'. One of the problems is that to make something work you have to be able to define 'working' in a manner that lends itself to implementation by nuts and bolts coders, and (so far) no one has presented themselves that has that sort of exhaustive knowledge of LL's vehicle physics. I'm not a nay-sayer; I really hope this stuff can be made to work someday; but I long ago lost hope as I'll likely be dead and buried before it happens at current rates of development, especially if everyone forgets or ignores all the prior work that has been done or that the issues raised are not so new as the users encountering them. I'm available to help with this, as much or as little as is needed, but you'll have to be patient with me as, at this point, I've largely forgotten a lot of what I knew about this, having given up on going blue in the face trying to get anyone to take notice of the issues I was raising. Cheers James aka Hiro Protagonist On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 4:38 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: This is getting more and more interesting for each post on the subject.. I think it would be a good thing to collect all the relevant information about physics and scripting in the forum so it is available to all struggling with this. Are there still active work going on with ODE or are our only option to find ways around the problems or hope for the Bullet engine? I saw in another post a reference to a OSGrid scripting forum and I assume it is this section you are referring to (please correct me if I am wrong): http://forums.osgrid.org/viewforum.php?f=5sid=d584d594240e0917e41480491af385ec That might anyhow be a good place to post in. Void Pipe ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- === http://simhost.com http://twitter.com/jstallings2 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
James, are your scripts open for us to view and work with? Regards/ Void Pipe 7 jun 2012 kl. 13:30 skrev James Stallings II: I've been working with vehicle scripting on opensims now for over 4 years. There are lots of historical scripts I have written or adapted from the work of others, or collaborated on with others in the OSgrid scripting forums. These include sailing scripts, automobile scripts, and yes, even a helicopter script. Dave Coyle said over three years ago that my helicopter was the most satisfying vehicle he'd ever seen on an opensim'. In fact, Owen Oyen and I produced the first vehicles on OSgrid *without any vehicle functions at all*. These were sailboats that entirely simulated 'sailboat physics' using llSetRot, llGetRot, llApplyImpulse and friends. The boat was clunky, did not heel, moved in anything but a smooth fashion, and was hell on the simulation. My more 'modern' boats can be found on Littlefield region on OSgrid, as well as a historical display documenting the work on the aquavita. The working copies of the boats are in a vendor; those sitting at the dock have had the scripts ripped out to reduce lag on the sim, don't take copies of those. Later (much later than that boat, the 'Aquavita), I worked extensively with Kitto Flora to get ODE implemetations of such vehicle scripting functions working as work now. The work is imperfect, but not all of the problems are with ODE proper; some have to do with various math functions' implementation in opensim, and how they differ from the same math functions as implemented in SL under havoc. The short story is, LL's functions are broken in terms of how physics actually dictates real-world objects behave; and the same functions are incomplete here, as the developers who worked on them refused to implement the broken math, and no resolution could be reached among the devs as to how to proceed, so the functions on opensims are incomplete and/or unfinished. All of this is more or less ancient history. I've got many very simple test objects needed to reproduce these errors as test cases in inventory on the grid, and related mantis entries filed, but quite frankly they've been ignored for so long I lost interest a couple years back and haven't really bothered with vehicles since. Who wants to sail a boat that doesn't heel? Who want's to fly an airplane that has no inertia if a vector component is on the z-axis? Not to mention, incoming physics 'fixes' often break the workarounds, with no explanation of how to take advantage of the improvements. It's really discouraging to be told about your now non-functional helicopter you've been using for most of a year that 'those vehicle functions never really worked anyway'. One of the problems is that to make something work you have to be able to define 'working' in a manner that lends itself to implementation by nuts and bolts coders, and (so far) no one has presented themselves that has that sort of exhaustive knowledge of LL's vehicle physics. I'm not a nay-sayer; I really hope this stuff can be made to work someday; but I long ago lost hope as I'll likely be dead and buried before it happens at current rates of development, especially if everyone forgets or ignores all the prior work that has been done or that the issues raised are not so new as the users encountering them. I'm available to help with this, as much or as little as is needed, but you'll have to be patient with me as, at this point, I've largely forgotten a lot of what I knew about this, having given up on going blue in the face trying to get anyone to take notice of the issues I was raising. Cheers James aka Hiro Protagonist On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 4:38 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: This is getting more and more interesting for each post on the subject.. I think it would be a good thing to collect all the relevant information about physics and scripting in the forum so it is available to all struggling with this. Are there still active work going on with ODE or are our only option to find ways around the problems or hope for the Bullet engine? I saw in another post a reference to a OSGrid scripting forum and I assume it is this section you are referring to (please correct me if I am wrong): http://forums.osgrid.org/viewforum.php?f=5sid=d584d594240e0917e41480491af385ec That might anyhow be a good place to post in. Void Pipe ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- === http://simhost.com http://twitter.com/jstallings2 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
Hi, we use a module that is been developed for us as custom work. It allows running unmodified SL vehicle scripts - well, mostly. We also have llSetKeyframedMotion() for things that don't really need to be physical. The latter will be donated to OpenSim at some point. Melanie On 06/06/2012 19:41, Bengt Falke wrote: Does anybody know what kind of physics Avination use? Physics works better there if I remember correctly? Void Pipe 6 jun 2012 kl. 19:10 skrev James Hughes: I have been experimenting with trains in SL and would like to make a physical one that works in OpenSim. Hopefully these cases aren't some limitation of the physics engines and can have a proper fix. -BlueWall On 06/05/2012 07:46 PM, Mike Higgins wrote: I was talking to Justin Clark-Casey at the OpenSim developers meeting this morning, and he suggested that the mailing lists would be the easiest way to have a conversation about vehicle physics on OpenSim. Justin you there? Is this where you meant? Anyone else want to talk about vehicle scripting in OpenSim? I am in the process of testing the OpenSim vehicle scripting calls and trying to find out what works and what can be worked around. I am submitting mantis reports when I think I see a true bug, issue numbers 0006039 http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6039 and 0006040 http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6040 for starters. Instead of submitting 1000 line vehicle scripts that do not work, I am writing small 10-line scripts that demonstrate a particular problem. Issue 0006040 http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6040 is particularly interesting because if my hypothesis is correct, the linear motor direction is being actively projected onto the global XY plane. I cannot get an airplane to glide up, or a balloon to rise using the linear motor. (Hover height works with balloons, but not the linear motor even with hover height disabled). The interesting thing about this is that my hypothesis suggests that there is extra code doing this projection onto the XY plane. I checked the vehicle flags and there isn't one that should force this extra projection into the calculations. Vehicle type balloon is supposed to have all the flags removed, but just to be sure I used the remove call to clear them all. The linear motor still cannot go up. Can someone familiar with the code look at the linear motor and tell me why this is happening and if there is a way to disable it? (I tried turning flags like VEHICLE_FLAG_NO_DEFLECTION_UP on to see if this flag was inverted, and if it applied to the motor instead of deflection, but no luck). The fun thing is that I can write one kind of vehicle that works well -- assuming this bug is there. I built a vehicle that has the linear motor set to 0,0,20, pointing straight up. When the vehicle is perfectly horizontal, the projection of this motor onto XY is 0,0,0 and the vehicle does nothing. But then when you tilt the vehicle in any direction, the projection of the linear motor on XY becomes non-zero and causes it to start moving in the direction of tilt. This feels a lot like an RL helicopter, so I used the control keys to pitch down/up to move forward/backwards, added yaw left and right, and used page-up/down to increase/decrease the hover height. I put it in a hacked together helicopter build and it is a lot of fun! I'm looking for work-arounds for the current vehicle routine behaviors. One work-around for an airplane is to turn on hover height, check the airplane speed and pitch once a second in timer(), calculate what altitude the plane should get to in the next second, and set hover height to that altitude. The things we do to get stuff working! ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
[Opensim-dev] Simborder crossings and disapearing regions.
I see since yesterday a weird problem. and possible before to. when i fly around a few sims. in this case simsquare metaverse 1,3,4,2 (in that order) then when am in simsquare metaverse 2, i dont see anymore simsquare metaverse astro astrosea. If am waiting long enough on simsquare metaverse 2 i crash in the viewer ! when i teleport quick to the other sim at the other side, named simsquare metaverse orion. then simsquare metaverse astro astro sea are still gone. also when i fly to neighborn sim. Now the intressting part, sometimes it works to teleport to plaza and back. But in this case the teleport to wright plaza failed and got aborted. After the aborted teleport, simsquare metaverse astro astrosea came automatic back. I get the feeling that somewhere after simborder crossings a mention is not established or cant get established. And idea if am overlooking something ? or am flying into some bug ? Someone else test the same and when she entered simsquare metraverse 4 she crashed to after a while, can create bad neigborn simns this problem to ? I use singularity as viewer, but have seen the same problem with old imprudence 1.4b2 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
Mike, I guess that no one that deals with vehicles has taken a look at that code in a good while now. Since you have a handle on this from the LSL side, why don't you have a look at the OpenSim ODE code for that? I did look at it and it looks pretty straightforward. Maybe you can see something from that side. https://github.com/BlueWall/opensim/blob/master/OpenSim/Region/Physics/OdePlugin/ODEDynamics.cs#L824 d is Ode.NET which contains functions found here: http://ode-wiki.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:_Rigid_Body_Functions If you see something there, you can submit patches (or hit us with a clue stick) and we can get it fixed. It may be as simple as calling d.BodyGetRotation and plugging the result into the equation: https://github.com/BlueWall/opensim/blob/master/OpenSim/Region/Physics/OdePlugin/ODEDynamics.cs#L845 Thanks! -BlueWall On 06/07/2012 03:31 AM, Mike Higgins wrote: On 6/6/12 4:30 PM, Brianna wrote: let me remind you OpenSim is not SL.. as such start with a fresh script using X and ODE. over the past years I have seen most vehicle types duplicated by the vehicle creators with and without the vehicle functions. to call the difference a bug is not addressing the solutions. I know that OpenSim is not Sl, I am starting with fresh scripts. I would love to talk to someone who has made an airplane work. Did they find a way to disable the squashing of the Z component of the linear motor? Did they do the hack I suggested of using hover height to replace the missing linear motor Z values? And when the airplane pitches or rolls, the local Z axis decouples from the region Z axis and the angular motor should start acting strange. Did they discover that the angular motor vector must be multiplied by llGetRot() like I did? And why didn't they document this for the next guy? ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
They are all completely open, yes :) On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: James, are your scripts open for us to view and work with? Regards/ Void Pipe 7 jun 2012 kl. 13:30 skrev James Stallings II: I've been working with vehicle scripting on opensims now for over 4 years. There are lots of historical scripts I have written or adapted from the work of others, or collaborated on with others in the OSgrid scripting forums. These include sailing scripts, automobile scripts, and yes, even a helicopter script. Dave Coyle said over three years ago that my helicopter was the most satisfying vehicle he'd ever seen on an opensim'. In fact, Owen Oyen and I produced the first vehicles on OSgrid *without any vehicle functions at all*. These were sailboats that entirely simulated 'sailboat physics' using llSetRot, llGetRot, llApplyImpulse and friends. The boat was clunky, did not heel, moved in anything but a smooth fashion, and was hell on the simulation. My more 'modern' boats can be found on Littlefield region on OSgrid, as well as a historical display documenting the work on the aquavita. The working copies of the boats are in a vendor; those sitting at the dock have had the scripts ripped out to reduce lag on the sim, don't take copies of those. Later (much later than that boat, the 'Aquavita), I worked extensively with Kitto Flora to get ODE implemetations of such vehicle scripting functions working as work now. The work is imperfect, but not all of the problems are with ODE proper; some have to do with various math functions' implementation in opensim, and how they differ from the same math functions as implemented in SL under havoc. The short story is, LL's functions are broken in terms of how physics actually dictates real-world objects behave; and the same functions are incomplete here, as the developers who worked on them refused to implement the broken math, and no resolution could be reached among the devs as to how to proceed, so the functions on opensims are incomplete and/or unfinished. All of this is more or less ancient history. I've got many very simple test objects needed to reproduce these errors as test cases in inventory on the grid, and related mantis entries filed, but quite frankly they've been ignored for so long I lost interest a couple years back and haven't really bothered with vehicles since. Who wants to sail a boat that doesn't heel? Who want's to fly an airplane that has no inertia if a vector component is on the z-axis? Not to mention, incoming physics 'fixes' often break the workarounds, with no explanation of how to take advantage of the improvements. It's really discouraging to be told about your now non-functional helicopter you've been using for most of a year that 'those vehicle functions never really worked anyway'. One of the problems is that to make something work you have to be able to define 'working' in a manner that lends itself to implementation by nuts and bolts coders, and (so far) no one has presented themselves that has that sort of exhaustive knowledge of LL's vehicle physics. I'm not a nay-sayer; I really hope this stuff can be made to work someday; but I long ago lost hope as I'll likely be dead and buried before it happens at current rates of development, especially if everyone forgets or ignores all the prior work that has been done or that the issues raised are not so new as the users encountering them. I'm available to help with this, as much or as little as is needed, but you'll have to be patient with me as, at this point, I've largely forgotten a lot of what I knew about this, having given up on going blue in the face trying to get anyone to take notice of the issues I was raising. Cheers James aka Hiro Protagonist On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 4:38 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: This is getting more and more interesting for each post on the subject.. I think it would be a good thing to collect all the relevant information about physics and scripting in the forum so it is available to all struggling with this. Are there still active work going on with ODE or are our only option to find ways around the problems or hope for the Bullet engine? I saw in another post a reference to a OSGrid scripting forum and I assume it is this section you are referring to (please correct me if I am wrong): http://forums.osgrid.org/viewforum.php?f=5sid=d584d594240e0917e41480491af385ec That might anyhow be a good place to post in. Void Pipe ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- === http://simhost.com http://twitter.com/jstallings2 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
On 12-06-07 03:09 AM, Mike Higgins wrote: Also at the recent OpenSim developers meeting, Andrew Hellershanks said (about llSetTImerEvent minimum time limits) Not sure why you would want to use something other [less] than 1.0. I think the developers need to know that there are 1000's of scripters in SL DESPERATELY trying to find ANY WAY to make simple things like a fish move smoothly through the water at a constant velocity. That is a misquote. The comment about using something other than 1.0 was about the ScriptDelayFactor and not about wanting time delays less than 1 second. IIRC, if you ask for a delay of x seconds, you get a delay of x*ScriptDelayFactor seconds. Changing the scale factor affects every script in a grid and is probably not something you would want to do unless you are testing, or else you will get complaints from users asking why the delays in their script aren't giving them the delay they asked for. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful! #include disclaimer/favourite | --Chris Hardwick ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
Sorry but I am not allowed to view your scripts... Regards/ Vid Pipe 7 jun 2012 kl. 14:22 skrev James Stallings II: They are all completely open, yes :) On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: James, are your scripts open for us to view and work with? Regards/ Void Pipe 7 jun 2012 kl. 13:30 skrev James Stallings II: I've been working with vehicle scripting on opensims now for over 4 years. There are lots of historical scripts I have written or adapted from the work of others, or collaborated on with others in the OSgrid scripting forums. These include sailing scripts, automobile scripts, and yes, even a helicopter script. Dave Coyle said over three years ago that my helicopter was the most satisfying vehicle he'd ever seen on an opensim'. In fact, Owen Oyen and I produced the first vehicles on OSgrid *without any vehicle functions at all*. These were sailboats that entirely simulated 'sailboat physics' using llSetRot, llGetRot, llApplyImpulse and friends. The boat was clunky, did not heel, moved in anything but a smooth fashion, and was hell on the simulation. My more 'modern' boats can be found on Littlefield region on OSgrid, as well as a historical display documenting the work on the aquavita. The working copies of the boats are in a vendor; those sitting at the dock have had the scripts ripped out to reduce lag on the sim, don't take copies of those. Later (much later than that boat, the 'Aquavita), I worked extensively with Kitto Flora to get ODE implemetations of such vehicle scripting functions working as work now. The work is imperfect, but not all of the problems are with ODE proper; some have to do with various math functions' implementation in opensim, and how they differ from the same math functions as implemented in SL under havoc. The short story is, LL's functions are broken in terms of how physics actually dictates real-world objects behave; and the same functions are incomplete here, as the developers who worked on them refused to implement the broken math, and no resolution could be reached among the devs as to how to proceed, so the functions on opensims are incomplete and/or unfinished. All of this is more or less ancient history. I've got many very simple test objects needed to reproduce these errors as test cases in inventory on the grid, and related mantis entries filed, but quite frankly they've been ignored for so long I lost interest a couple years back and haven't really bothered with vehicles since. Who wants to sail a boat that doesn't heel? Who want's to fly an airplane that has no inertia if a vector component is on the z-axis? Not to mention, incoming physics 'fixes' often break the workarounds, with no explanation of how to take advantage of the improvements. It's really discouraging to be told about your now non-functional helicopter you've been using for most of a year that 'those vehicle functions never really worked anyway'. One of the problems is that to make something work you have to be able to define 'working' in a manner that lends itself to implementation by nuts and bolts coders, and (so far) no one has presented themselves that has that sort of exhaustive knowledge of LL's vehicle physics. I'm not a nay-sayer; I really hope this stuff can be made to work someday; but I long ago lost hope as I'll likely be dead and buried before it happens at current rates of development, especially if everyone forgets or ignores all the prior work that has been done or that the issues raised are not so new as the users encountering them. I'm available to help with this, as much or as little as is needed, but you'll have to be patient with me as, at this point, I've largely forgotten a lot of what I knew about this, having given up on going blue in the face trying to get anyone to take notice of the issues I was raising. Cheers James aka Hiro Protagonist On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 4:38 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: This is getting more and more interesting for each post on the subject.. I think it would be a good thing to collect all the relevant information about physics and scripting in the forum so it is available to all struggling with this. Are there still active work going on with ODE or are our only option to find ways around the problems or hope for the Bullet engine? I saw in another post a reference to a OSGrid scripting forum and I assume it is this section you are referring to (please correct me if I am wrong): http://forums.osgrid.org/viewforum.php?f=5sid=d584d594240e0917e41480491af385ec That might anyhow be a good place to post in. Void Pipe ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- === http://simhost.com
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
If you rez them and take a copy, you should be able to do so with the copy On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: Sorry but I am not allowed to view your scripts... Regards/ Vid Pipe 7 jun 2012 kl. 14:22 skrev James Stallings II: They are all completely open, yes :) On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: James, are your scripts open for us to view and work with? Regards/ Void Pipe 7 jun 2012 kl. 13:30 skrev James Stallings II: I've been working with vehicle scripting on opensims now for over 4 years. There are lots of historical scripts I have written or adapted from the work of others, or collaborated on with others in the OSgrid scripting forums. These include sailing scripts, automobile scripts, and yes, even a helicopter script. Dave Coyle said over three years ago that my helicopter was the most satisfying vehicle he'd ever seen on an opensim'. In fact, Owen Oyen and I produced the first vehicles on OSgrid *without any vehicle functions at all*. These were sailboats that entirely simulated 'sailboat physics' using llSetRot, llGetRot, llApplyImpulse and friends. The boat was clunky, did not heel, moved in anything but a smooth fashion, and was hell on the simulation. My more 'modern' boats can be found on Littlefield region on OSgrid, as well as a historical display documenting the work on the aquavita. The working copies of the boats are in a vendor; those sitting at the dock have had the scripts ripped out to reduce lag on the sim, don't take copies of those. Later (much later than that boat, the 'Aquavita), I worked extensively with Kitto Flora to get ODE implemetations of such vehicle scripting functions working as work now. The work is imperfect, but not all of the problems are with ODE proper; some have to do with various math functions' implementation in opensim, and how they differ from the same math functions as implemented in SL under havoc. The short story is, LL's functions are broken in terms of how physics actually dictates real-world objects behave; and the same functions are incomplete here, as the developers who worked on them refused to implement the broken math, and no resolution could be reached among the devs as to how to proceed, so the functions on opensims are incomplete and/or unfinished. All of this is more or less ancient history. I've got many very simple test objects needed to reproduce these errors as test cases in inventory on the grid, and related mantis entries filed, but quite frankly they've been ignored for so long I lost interest a couple years back and haven't really bothered with vehicles since. Who wants to sail a boat that doesn't heel? Who want's to fly an airplane that has no inertia if a vector component is on the z-axis? Not to mention, incoming physics 'fixes' often break the workarounds, with no explanation of how to take advantage of the improvements. It's really discouraging to be told about your now non-functional helicopter you've been using for most of a year that 'those vehicle functions never really worked anyway'. One of the problems is that to make something work you have to be able to define 'working' in a manner that lends itself to implementation by nuts and bolts coders, and (so far) no one has presented themselves that has that sort of exhaustive knowledge of LL's vehicle physics. I'm not a nay-sayer; I really hope this stuff can be made to work someday; but I long ago lost hope as I'll likely be dead and buried before it happens at current rates of development, especially if everyone forgets or ignores all the prior work that has been done or that the issues raised are not so new as the users encountering them. I'm available to help with this, as much or as little as is needed, but you'll have to be patient with me as, at this point, I've largely forgotten a lot of what I knew about this, having given up on going blue in the face trying to get anyone to take notice of the issues I was raising. Cheers James aka Hiro Protagonist On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 4:38 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: This is getting more and more interesting for each post on the subject.. I think it would be a good thing to collect all the relevant information about physics and scripting in the forum so it is available to all struggling with this. Are there still active work going on with ODE or are our only option to find ways around the problems or hope for the Bullet engine? I saw in another post a reference to a OSGrid scripting forum and I assume it is this section you are referring to (please correct me if I am wrong): http://forums.osgrid.org/viewforum.php?f=5sid=d584d594240e0917e41480491af385ec That might anyhow be a good place to post in. Void Pipe ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
If anyone needs the expertise, I was a math and physics major in college, am comfortable with various transformations, and can sometimes provide clues as to how to tackle certain situations -- provided there are stable tools that do something, anything, consistently.After an initial exploration of vehicle and similar physics in OpenSim and SecondLife, and finding behaviors that were not only bizarre, but unreproducible, or seemed to change by the hour and day, I just gave up working on that. Still, I'm a private pilot and still have all my calculus and mechanics books and can help with vector or matrix algebra and that sort of thing. Email me if you have a math / physics question I might be able to help with, regarding how ACTUAL objects behave in REALISTIC worlds.I can't help on why script commands don't do what they should, if you can even figure out what it was they were hoping to do in the first place. Wade / Starlight Harbour in Jokaydia, OSgrid, Kitely, Unity, and Second Life. On 6/7/12 4:30 AM, James Stallings II wrote: I've been working with vehicle scripting on opensims now for over 4 years. There are lots of historical scripts I have written or adapted from the work of others, or collaborated on with others in the OSgrid scripting forums. These include sailing scripts, automobile scripts, and yes, even a helicopter script. Dave Coyle said over three years ago that my helicopter was the most satisfying vehicle he'd ever seen on an opensim'. In fact, Owen Oyen and I produced the first vehicles on OSgrid *without any vehicle functions at all*. These were sailboats that entirely simulated 'sailboat physics' using llSetRot, llGetRot, llApplyImpulse and friends. The boat was clunky, did not heel, moved in anything but a smooth fashion, and was hell on the simulation. My more 'modern' boats can be found on Littlefield region on OSgrid, as well as a historical display documenting the work on the aquavita. The working copies of the boats are in a vendor; those sitting at the dock have had the scripts ripped out to reduce lag on the sim, don't take copies of those. Later (much later than that boat, the 'Aquavita), I worked extensively with Kitto Flora to get ODE implemetations of such vehicle scripting functions working as work now. The work is imperfect, but not all of the problems are with ODE proper; some have to do with various math functions' implementation in opensim, and how they differ from the same math functions as implemented in SL under havoc. The short story is, LL's functions are broken in terms of how physics actually dictates real-world objects behave; and the same functions are incomplete here, as the developers who worked on them refused to implement the broken math, and no resolution could be reached among the devs as to how to proceed, so the functions on opensims are incomplete and/or unfinished. All of this is more or less ancient history. I've got many very simple test objects needed to reproduce these errors as test cases in inventory on the grid, and related mantis entries filed, but quite frankly they've been ignored for so long I lost interest a couple years back and haven't really bothered with vehicles since. Who wants to sail a boat that doesn't heel? Who want's to fly an airplane that has no inertia if a vector component is on the z-axis? Not to mention, incoming physics 'fixes' often break the workarounds, with no explanation of how to take advantage of the improvements. It's really discouraging to be told about your now non-functional helicopter you've been using for most of a year that 'those vehicle functions never really worked anyway'. One of the problems is that to make something work you have to be able to define 'working' in a manner that lends itself to implementation by nuts and bolts coders, and (so far) no one has presented themselves that has that sort of exhaustive knowledge of LL's vehicle physics. I'm not a nay-sayer; I really hope this stuff can be made to work someday; but I long ago lost hope as I'll likely be dead and buried before it happens at current rates of development, especially if everyone forgets or ignores all the prior work that has been done or that the issues raised are not so new as the users encountering them. I'm available to help with this, as much or as little as is needed, but you'll have to be patient with me as, at this point, I've largely forgotten a lot of what I knew about this, having given up on going blue in the face trying to get anyone to take notice of the issues I was raising. Cheers James aka Hiro Protagonist On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 4:38 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu mailto:be...@falke.nu wrote: This is getting more and more interesting for each post on the subject.. I think it would be a good thing to collect all the relevant information about physics and scripting in the forum so it is
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
Any chance you might come introduce yoursel to the dev channel on IRC? #opensim-dev on the Freenode IRC network. Cheers On Thursday, June 7, 2012, Wade Schuette wade.schue...@gmail.com wrote: If anyone needs the expertise, I was a math and physics major in college, am comfortable with various transformations, and can sometimes provide clues as to how to tackle certain situations -- provided there are stable tools that do something, anything, consistently.After an initial exploration of vehicle and similar physics in OpenSim and SecondLife, and finding behaviors that were not only bizarre, but unreproducible, or seemed to change by the hour and day, I just gave up working on that. Still, I'm a private pilot and still have all my calculus and mechanics books and can help with vector or matrix algebra and that sort of thing. Email me if you have a math / physics question I might be able to help with, regarding how ACTUAL objects behave in REALISTIC worlds.I can't help on why script commands don't do what they should, if you can even figure out what it was they were hoping to do in the first place. Wade / Starlight Harbour in Jokaydia, OSgrid, Kitely, Unity, and Second Life. On 6/7/12 4:30 AM, James Stallings II wrote: I've been working with vehicle scripting on opensims now for over 4 years. There are lots of historical scripts I have written or adapted from the work of others, or collaborated on with others in the OSgrid scripting forums. These include sailing scripts, automobile scripts, and yes, even a helicopter script. Dave Coyle said over three years ago that my helicopter was the most satisfying vehicle he'd ever seen on an opensim'. In fact, Owen Oyen and I produced the first vehicles on OSgrid *without any vehicle functions at all*. These were sailboats that entirely simulated 'sailboat physics' using llSetRot, llGetRot, llApplyImpulse and friends. The boat was clunky, did not heel, moved in anything but a smooth fashion, and was hell on the simulation. My more 'modern' boats can be found on Littlefield region on OSgrid, as well as a historical display documenting the work on the aquavita. The working copies of the boats are in a vendor; those sitting at the dock have had the scripts ripped out to reduce lag on the sim, don't take copies of those. Later (much later than that boat, the 'Aquavita), I worked extensively with Kitto Flora to get ODE implemetations of such vehicle scripting functions working as work now. The work is imperfect, but not all of the problems are with ODE proper; some have to do with various math functions' implementation in opensim, and how they differ from the same math functions as implemented in SL under havoc. The short story is, LL's functions are broken in terms of how physics actually dictates real-world objects behave; and the same functions are incomplete here, as the developers who worked on them refused to implement the broken math, and no resolution could be reached among the devs as to how to proceed, so the functions on opensims are incomplete and/or unfinished. All of this is more or less ancient history. I've got many very simple test objects needed to reproduce these errors as test cases in inventory on the grid, and related mantis entries filed, but quite frankly they've been ignored for so long I lost interest a couple years back and haven't really bothered with vehicles since. Who wants to sail a boat that doesn't heel? Who want's to fly an airplane that has no inertia if a vector component is on the z-axis? Not to mention, incoming physics 'fixes' often break the workarounds, with no explanation of how to take advantage of the improvements. It's really discouraging to be told about your now non-functional helicopter you've been using for most of a year that 'those vehicle functions never really worked anyway'. One of the problems is that to make something work you have to be able to define 'working' in a manner that lends itself to implementation by nuts and bolts coders, and (so far) no one has presented themselves that has that sort of exhaustive knowledge of LL's vehicle physics. I'm not a nay-sayer; I really hope this stuff can be made to work someday; but I long ago lost hope as I'll likely be dead and buried before it happens at current rates of development, especially if everyone forgets or ignores all the prior work that has been done or that the issues raised are not so new as the users encountering them. I'm available to help with this, as much or as little as is needed, but you'll have to be patient with me as, at this point, I've largely forgotten a lot of what I knew about this, having given up on going blue in the face trying to get anyone to take notice of the issues I was raising. Cheers James aka Hiro Protagonist On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 4:38 AM, Bengt Falke be...@falke.nu wrote: This is getting more and more interesting for each post on the subject.. I think it --
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
I'll do that, James. Good idea. Wade On 6/7/12 11:29 AM, James Stallings II wrote: Any chance you might come introduce yoursel to the dev channel on IRC? #opensim-dev on the Freenode IRC network. Cheers On Thursday, June 7, 2012, Wade Schuette wade.schue...@gmail.com mailto:wade.schue...@gmail.com wrote: If anyone needs the expertise, I was a math and physics major in college, Wade / Starlight Harbour in Jokaydia, OSgrid, Kitely, Unity, and Second Life. On 6/7/12 4:30 AM, James Stallings II wrote: I've been working with vehicle scripting on opensims now for over 4 years ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] Questions about Vehicle scripting calls
Timers in opensimulator are usually limited to 0.5 seconds minimum
duration. There is a ini setting to change it at the simulator level,
however, I've found that using the not_at_target() event gives better
results as it will fire once per simulation frame which is probably what
you would want anyway.
Using llSetPos() and friends is probably not a good idea as it generates a
*lot* of network traffic and overhead in the client stack code in the
simulator. I've heard several LL engineers lament the use of these
functions for motion but the cat is out of the bag now and there's not
much they can do about it except promote the use of llSetKeyFramedMotion().
I've had difficulties with the opensimulator implementation of
llMoveToTarget() and I've written my own velocity feedback loop in LSL
(which is kind of an abstract PID controller) and I use it on both SL and
opensimulator. I usually only have to change one constant to get it to
behave the same on either platform. I use not_at_target() and
llApplyImpulse() to correct velocity at each simulation frame. I don't use
any timers at all. It works in all 3 global axes so object rotation doesn't
affect velocity, and motion is fairly constant and smooth. I have made
attempts to understand the existing PID code in opensimulator but it's
unfortunately not very well documented and has a lot of commented out code
and much of the code uses variable names that are not very descriptive, so
I haven't been able to successfully modify it to work as well as my LSL
solution. I'm also somewhat hesitant to commit any changes to that code as
I don't really have much experience with scripting LSL physics and I don't
have confidence that I would make changes that would break other's scripts.
I'm also not sure if any of the PID controller code affects vehicle
functions or not, or if it just applies to llMoveToTarget() and agent
motion.
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Mike Higgins m...@kayaker.net wrote:
On 6/6/12 12:48 AM, Bengt Falke wrote:
I am also interested in physics for vehicles mainly for creating working
yacht and for making my free moving scripted animals to work in a smooth
way.
If there is a way I can contribute I will try to do so.
Also at the recent OpenSim developers meeting, Andrew Hellershanks
said (about llSetTImerEvent minimum time limits) Not sure why you would
want to use something other [less] than 1.0. I think the developers need
to know that there are 1000's of scripters in SL DESPERATELY trying to find
ANY WAY to make simple things like a fish move smoothly through the water
at a constant velocity. In SL you can usually get timer() events as often
as once every 0.2 seconds, which is not quite often enough for smooth
looking motion. timer events more often would be one way to get smoother
looking motion. I've seen people write scripts that had abominations like:
while (1) { moveit(); llSleep(0.05); } The OpenSim developers need to
throw these guys a bone so they will NOT DO THAT HERE!
Of course, LL only recently threw them the llSetKeyframedMotion()
bone. Before that, people tried to use physics and llMoveToTarget() which
was NEVER DESIGNED TO GENERATE LINEAR MOTION (it is always damped).
Although you can play games with it and find reasonably linear portions of
the curve. But that requires accurate llSetTimerEvent durations to stop the
llMoveToTarget part way through a damped move. And in OpenSim,
llMoveToTarget is damped 9 times faster than SL (mantis issue 5968) which
requires pushing it nine times harder to try to capture a linear section
and even more accurate llSetTimerEvent times to prevent the object from
running away from you...
The only other way in SL (before llSetKeframedMotion) to get
something to move smoothly at a constant velocity is to make it a vehicle.
Which is sort of like using a 4 ton hydrolic press to insert thumbtacks in
a cork board. And even in SL, the vehicle functions are really squirrely.
So the major reason I am testing the OpenSim vehicle routines is to
see if I can find a reliable subset of them, or a set of workarounds, that
will allow me to move a fish smoothly through the water at a constant
velocity.
So far I have found a few problems and some workarounds:
1) Vehicles crash and burn at the sim boundary, the workaround is to add
code to detect the sim boundary before the vehicle gets there and prevent
it from even getting close. But if llSetTimerEvent is not accurate, if your
timer() event is not called regularly to do this check, the vehicle runs
into the sim boundary and goes crazy.
2) The angular motor rotates around the wrong axes, but you can
workaround that by multiplying your vectors by llGetRot (mantis issue
6039). I'm guessing that nobody noticed this before because cars and boats
and helicopters are usually horizontal and their local Z axis is aligned
with the region Z axis.
3) The linear motor vector is clamped or projected onto
Re: [Opensim-dev] Simborder crossings and disapearing regions.
How are these regions laid out spatially? Are these regions running the latest osgrid distribution? Did this happen immediately after you updated? What happens if you go back to a previous distribution? Are you in a position to try the latest git master, which has some changes to client mgmt though in theory nothing that should affect this? On 07/06/12 13:44, R.Gunther wrote: I see since yesterday a weird problem. and possible before to. when i fly around a few sims. in this case simsquare metaverse 1,3,4,2 (in that order) then when am in simsquare metaverse 2, i dont see anymore simsquare metaverse astro astrosea. If am waiting long enough on simsquare metaverse 2 i crash in the viewer ! when i teleport quick to the other sim at the other side, named simsquare metaverse orion. then simsquare metaverse astro astro sea are still gone. also when i fly to neighborn sim. Now the intressting part, sometimes it works to teleport to plaza and back. But in this case the teleport to wright plaza failed and got aborted. After the aborted teleport, simsquare metaverse astro astrosea came automatic back. I get the feeling that somewhere after simborder crossings a mention is not established or cant get established. And idea if am overlooking something ? or am flying into some bug ? Someone else test the same and when she entered simsquare metraverse 4 she crashed to after a while, can create bad neigborn simns this problem to ? I use singularity as viewer, but have seen the same problem with old imprudence 1.4b2 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- Justin Clark-Casey (justincc) http://justincc.org/blog http://twitter.com/justincc ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
