Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/19/05, Shantnu Sharma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Felix, Thanks for the heads up and thanks for your participation in the open solaris community. I was wondering if you can point me to documentation which dwells upon the German Government's propensity to favor KDE. Sorry for being late but it took a while to figure out some details here. So far no public information has been disclosed yet except the stuff from the talks at LinuxWorld 2006 in Frankfurt. Lead person of the task force is Björn Kümmel from the German ministry for health (ok, bad translation, in German it's Bundesministerium für Gesundheit und Soziale Sicherung, BMGS, however other ministries like BMI, BMJ and the Parliament are directly involved, too). Apparently more information will be disclosed in August 2006 with a full list of requirements (which includes KDE as a *mandatory* requirement (likely for purchase of support contacts for Linux/Unix-like operating systems - which includes Solaris/OpenSolaris)) ... that's all I could figure out for now without signing some kind of non-disclosure agreement... :-( -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hey, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 12:59 +, Brian Nitz wrote: I'm sure there are other areas where GNOME has an advantage over KDE. I hope Opensolaris distributions based on KDE, Looking glass and other open source desktops become available but if everyone played by the rules and followed proper procurement directives, GNOME would have a decent chance of winning government desktops. Just so that everyone knows, I'm totally keen for people to take on sub-communities under the main Desktop Community umbrella - I know there's a set of KDE pages coming at some stage, and the Looking Glass dudes are working on their own set of pages. If there are any other Desktop Communities out there, I'd love to hear from them and feature them on opensolaris.org [1] Glynn [1] We may need to rethink the the differences between Project and Community a little bit - I'm not sure of the overlap myself and how best to manage it. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Felix Schulte wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. Why is the requirement KDE? Is the requirement for specific functionality that GNOME doesn't offer? Or do they specify a desktop whose name is spelled exactly KDE? That would appear to be on the wrong side of the law governing European tenders of any kind. Casper ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Felix Schulte wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. Why is the requirement KDE? Is the requirement for specific functionality that GNOME doesn't offer? Or do they specify a desktop whose name is spelled exactly KDE? That would appear to be on the wrong side of the law governing European tenders of any kind. Exactly. Sole source tenders for publicly funded software projects are evil and in many cases illegal. It doesn't matter whether the RFP favors Microsoft, linux, a specific distribution or a specific desktop, it eventually transfers public tax money via a non-competitive process which favors monopolies.Alternative vendors and communities must become involved early in procurement in order to make the advantages of alternatives known. If I see a tender specifying KDE or SuSE for a new desktop project I would suggest more detail in the tender such as: - Accessibility (A11Y) support shall... - Internationalization Localization support (i18n/L10n) should be available for the following... - Documentation should be complete and available in (X) languages. I'm sure there are other areas where GNOME has an advantage over KDE. I hope Opensolaris distributions based on KDE, Looking glass and other open source desktops become available but if everyone played by the rules and followed proper procurement directives, GNOME would have a decent chance of winning government desktops. ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/19/05, Brian Nitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure there are other areas where GNOME has an advantage over KDE. For example PDF rendering. I hope Opensolaris distributions based on KDE, Looking glass and other open source desktops become available but if everyone played by the rules and followed proper procurement directives, GNOME would have a decent chance of winning government desktops. Are you actually trying to publicly suggest that GNOME/JDS has not succeeded because of unfair competitive practices by KDE e.V. Stefan Teleman -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Glynn Foster writes: Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. Given the sheer amount of resources that we've already thrown into GNOME, I feel that it would be almost impossible to throw equal resources into KDE as well. Having 2 desktops really doesn't make any sense from a business point of view - goodness knows we already have *4* CD's already, which is way too many. If there's stuff about GNOME that isn't getting us deals [1] then we need to start tackling those issues and figuring out what we need to improve. That's actually not the big problem here. The big problem is the NxM matrix that adopting a new desktop causes. If we can't pick one official desktop, then every single application with any sort of user interface is forced to deliver (and test and support) N different sets of integration hooks, look-and-feel bits, and configuration mechanisms. The result is chaos: poor and uneven results when choosing different desktops (e.g., application A works fine with desktop X, and B with Y, but A doesn't work right on Y and B doesn't work on X), and fewer good products released because project teams are forced to waste time on multiple standards. I wouldn't count myself as a fan of GNOME -- I'm currently using twm with m4 to process my .twmrc because GNOME definitely doesn't meet my needs -- but I still think it'd be far worse to have more than one official answer here. (The issue with the German government and other buyers is something that ought to be escalated properly. If it's a real problem, it shouldn't just be left to fester.) -- James Carlson, KISS Network[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems / 1 Network Drive 71.232W Vox +1 781 442 2084 MS UBUR02-212 / Burlington MA 01803-2757 42.496N Fax +1 781 442 1677 ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Stefan Teleman wrote: On 12/19/05, Brian Nitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure there are other areas where GNOME has an advantage over KDE. For example PDF rendering. I hope Opensolaris distributions based on KDE, Looking glass and other open source desktops become available but if everyone played by the rules and followed proper procurement directives, GNOME would have a decent chance of winning government desktops. Are you actually trying to publicly suggest that GNOME/JDS has not succeeded because of unfair competitive practices by KDE e.V. ??? I'm trying to publicly suggest that as long as 30-50% of what I earn and at least 20% what I spend goes to taxes, I expect that the public bodies responsible for spending those taxes does so in a fair and transparent manner. Public technology procurement decisions should be based on whether the proposal meets the requirements and serves the common good for the least cost. Desktop or distribution religious affinity should never come into consideration. Stefan Teleman -- Stefan Teleman [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Felix, Thanks for the heads up and thanks for your participation in the open solaris community. I was wondering if you can point me to documentation which dwells upon the German Government's propensity to favor KDE. Best Regards Shantnu Felix Schulte wrote: Sun's choice of only shipping Gnome has serious impact for the (Open)Solaris acceptance. Just one example: In Germany KDE is the the de facto standard for the government open source desktop and the decision makers here feel SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF (apologies for the strong language, but this is how the people feel who are currently doing the MS-Windows-To-Linux transition in the German parliament) by Sun's attempt to sell them Gnome instead. Sun would be in a much better position if KDE would be an officially supported desktop choice - and as long as Sun does not offer it it will not get much more desktop installations in the German government (that's why Suse Linux got most of the cake). Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org -- -- Shantnu Sharma Development Manager, Operating Platforms Group Burlington, MA [EMAIL PROTECTED] 978.239.8154 Cell 781.442.2370 Work ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: [osol-mktg] Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Felix Schulte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The Why do you believe this? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/old/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/18/05, Bill Rushmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 13:02, Gary Gendel wrote: Anyway, Linus has just opened another can of worms that directly effects OpenSolaris and JDS. I really don't see how this effects JDS or OpenSolaris. It just one guy's opinion not some edict from above. Sun's choice of only shipping Gnome has serious impact for the (Open)Solaris acceptance. Just one example: In Germany KDE is the the de facto standard for the government open source desktop and the decision makers here feel SERIOUSLY PISSED OFF (apologies for the strong language, but this is how the people feel who are currently doing the MS-Windows-To-Linux transition in the German parliament) by Sun's attempt to sell them Gnome instead. Sun would be in a much better position if KDE would be an officially supported desktop choice - and as long as Sun does not offer it it will not get much more desktop installations in the German government (that's why Suse Linux got most of the cake). Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hi, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 00:09 +0100, Felix Schulte wrote: On 12/18/05, Bill Rushmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 13:02, Gary Gendel wrote: Anyway, Linus has just opened another can of worms that directly effects OpenSolaris and JDS. I really don't see how this effects JDS or OpenSolaris. It just one guy's opinion not some edict from above. Sun's choice of only shipping Gnome has serious impact for the (Open)Solaris acceptance. We don't just ship GNOME though - KDE is available on the CCD right? It's just not supported. [snip stuff about Germany that I don't really know enough about] Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. Given the sheer amount of resources that we've already thrown into GNOME, I feel that it would be almost impossible to throw equal resources into KDE as well. Having 2 desktops really doesn't make any sense from a business point of view - goodness knows we already have *4* CD's already, which is way too many. If there's stuff about GNOME that isn't getting us deals [1] then we need to start tackling those issues and figuring out what we need to improve. However, if we have a package repository where someone could easily install a version of KDE then maybe we have some bargaining power. The Linux distros do seem to be standardizing around GNOME though /flamebait Glynn [1] And trust me It isn't KDE isn't a valid reason ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/19/05, Glynn Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 00:09 +0100, Felix Schulte wrote: On 12/18/05, Bill Rushmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2005-12-18 at 13:02, Gary Gendel wrote: Anyway, Linus has just opened another can of worms that directly effects OpenSolaris and JDS. I really don't see how this effects JDS or OpenSolaris. It just one guy's opinion not some edict from above. Sun's choice of only shipping Gnome has serious impact for the (Open)Solaris acceptance. We don't just ship GNOME though - KDE is available on the CCD right? It's just not supported. [snip stuff about Germany that I don't really know enough about] Similar issues already exist in Spain and France will follow soon. Other european contries also KDE as primiary desktop and I don't see how Solaris can get a better acceptance as long KDE is not supported. Given the sheer amount of resources that we've already thrown into GNOME, I feel that it would be almost impossible to throw equal resources into KDE as well. Having 2 desktops really doesn't make any sense from a business point of view Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Felix Schulte wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. Why is the requirement KDE? Is the requirement for specific functionality that GNOME doesn't offer? Or do they specify a desktop whose name is spelled exactly KDE? -- -Alan Coopersmith- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun Microsystems, Inc. - X Window System Engineering ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
On 12/19/05, Alan Coopersmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Felix Schulte wrote: Having two desktops does not make sense for the customers - and KDE is the primary government desktop here. Support for KDE will be a requirement for further contracts as far as I can see from my POV. The European governments are looking into further ways to save costs and having the burden of a KDE desktop which is not supported will not generate bonus points when Sun tries to compete with other open source solutions here. Sun Germany will likely hit tendering procedures where KDE is a REQUIREMENT very soon and IMO there needs to be a solution for this problem ASAP as it will affect the sales on the whole European continent. Why is the requirement KDE? Is the requirement for specific functionality that GNOME doesn't offer? Or do they specify a desktop whose name is spelled exactly KDE? I do not know the exact details. As far as I know its partially a political decision as KDE's main development body sits in Europe and Europe likes to focus on European developments. Another reason stated by the people who do the open source desktop transition for the German parliament on the LinuxTag this year was that Gnome is considered inferior compared to the functionality delivered with KDE after an eight month evaluation period (using Suse Linux as operating system). Spain had similar arguments, but for the exact reasons you may ask (ex-)Suse Hubert Mantel. -- _Felix Schulte _|_|_ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (0 0) ooO--(_)--Ooo ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Re: OpenSolairis a choice for the government desktop? // Re: [osol-discuss] KDE, GNOME, etc.
Hi, On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 02:21 +0100, Felix Schulte wrote: I do not know the exact details. As far as I know its partially a political decision as KDE's main development body sits in Europe and Europe likes to focus on European developments. This is interesting, because in actual fact GNOME is pretty European focused in terms of development as well - http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/random/GnomeWorldWideHuge.jpg While the GNOME Foundation may be a non-profit US organization, it is only responsible for making sure the project has the resources it needs to be successful in the future. Another reason stated by the people who do the open source desktop transition for the German parliament on the LinuxTag this year was that Gnome is considered inferior compared to the functionality delivered with KDE after an eight month evaluation period (using Suse Linux as operating system). Spain had similar arguments, but for the exact reasons you may ask (ex-)Suse Hubert Mantel. I suspect it's more likely to be the people pushing for the Linux deployments are KDE users. As you mention KDE is pretty popular in Germany [and maybe other places] - so much so that all the main Linux magazines over there really only concentrate on KDE articles. That may be where some of the bias comes from. I bet the first thing they do with the deployments is lock down most of the desktop, so that you can't see most of that 'superior' functionality. I've seen that in GNOME deployments before, and I imagine it's the same for KDE to make 'functionality' a somewhat moot point. Glynn ___ opensolaris-discuss mailing list opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
