Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Maybe that's a problem as well. Log files might be best just for log messages ;) On 2/21/12 6:01 AM, David Kranz david.kr...@qrclab.com wrote: Because at least some OpenStack projects use log files for more than just error messages, there may not be a one-size-fits all answer to this. I agree strongly with point 1 below but have also gotten a lot of value from generic web searching of error snippets from log files, including searches of the bug databases. -David On 2/20/2012 10:41 AM, Ahn, Jaesuk wrote: We have a small discussion at OpenStack Korea Community about logging in local language. Most of participants said that they prefers having logging message in English only. Reasons are: 1. Logging messages are searchable keywords. Having a single entry point for searching is important. 2. Keeping the exact translation for logging message is very important for the localization. It is not an easy task to do. Suggestions are: - It would be helpful if we can have a place (website) to look-up for the translation. - It would be good if each error message has corresponding error code, and a look-up website to search for localized translation with the error-code. - It is also possible that we can have an option to generate localized error message along with original English message. - Having an official website to put feedback, related information, possible cause of error message in various languages is more important than having translated logging message. This is just an opinion from small set of developers in Korea Community. We are happy to join a discussion on this subject at Folsom design summit, or we can try to gather much broader consensus on this subject within Korea Community. Cheers, ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
When it comes to server software, log files are not just for developers. In my experience, the first people who look at log files are operators and users. For non-English speakers, something as simple as the absence of the word 'ERROR' or 'WARNING' in a critical message can mean the difference between a quick solution and hours of troubleshooting. I'm 100% in favor of localization of messages. If anything more formal is needed, then you can always use message ids and codes, but I personally never found that useful. mike ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Because at least some OpenStack projects use log files for more than just error messages, there may not be a one-size-fits all answer to this. I agree strongly with point 1 below but have also gotten a lot of value from generic web searching of error snippets from log files, including searches of the bug databases. -David On 2/20/2012 10:41 AM, Ahn, Jaesuk wrote: We have a small discussion at OpenStack Korea Community about logging in local language. Most of participants said that they prefers having logging message in English only. Reasons are: 1. Logging messages are searchable keywords. Having a single entry point for searching is important. 2. Keeping the exact translation for logging message is very important for the localization. It is not an easy task to do. Suggestions are: - It would be helpful if we can have a place (website) to look-up for the translation. - It would be good if each error message has corresponding error code, and a look-up website to search for localized translation with the error-code. - It is also possible that we can have an option to generate localized error message along with original English message. - Having an official website to put feedback, related information, possible cause of error message in various languages is more important than having translated logging message. This is just an opinion from small set of developers in Korea Community. We are happy to join a discussion on this subject at Folsom design summit, or we can try to gather much broader consensus on this subject within Korea Community. Cheers, ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Diego Parrilla Santamaría wrote: Joshua, most of non-english speaking developers I know try to use english for class names, methods, fields, constants... English is the 'lingua franca' for code, so even developers with bad english level like me try to use english all the time... so internationalized logging messages do not make sense from my perspective. And sometimes translations are awful, or even hilarious. So +1 for english only logging messages in the code. Currently only Nova is set up for message translations (through Launchpad Rosetta [1]). We used to have 100% coverage in Japanese and French, and good Spanish coverage. Today the coverage dropped to 20%. I agree that it has value only if done properly and across the board. The original translations effort was pushed by the Japanese community to get Japanese errors in logs. We should definitely have a discussion at the Folsom design summit to get some consistency in core projects in that area. [1] https://translations.launchpad.net/nova -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
We have a small discussion at OpenStack Korea Community about logging in local language. Most of participants said that they prefers having logging message in English only. Reasons are: 1. Logging messages are searchable keywords. Having a single entry point for searching is important. 2. Keeping the exact translation for logging message is very important for the localization. It is not an easy task to do. Suggestions are: - It would be helpful if we can have a place (website) to look-up for the translation. - It would be good if each error message has corresponding error code, and a look-up website to search for localized translation with the error-code. - It is also possible that we can have an option to generate localized error message along with original English message. - Having an official website to put feedback, related information, possible cause of error message in various languages is more important than having translated logging message. This is just an opinion from small set of developers in Korea Community. We are happy to join a discussion on this subject at Folsom design summit, or we can try to gather much broader consensus on this subject within Korea Community. Cheers, -- Jaesuk Ahn, Ph.D. Team Leader | Cloud OS Dev. Team Cloud Infrastructure Department KT (Korea Telecom) T. +82-10-9888-0328 | F. +82-303-0993-5340 Active member on OpenStack Korea Community Feb 20, 2012, 7:39 PM, Thierry Carrez 작성: Diego Parrilla Santamaría wrote: Joshua, most of non-english speaking developers I know try to use english for class names, methods, fields, constants... English is the 'lingua franca' for code, so even developers with bad english level like me try to use english all the time... so internationalized logging messages do not make sense from my perspective. And sometimes translations are awful, or even hilarious. So +1 for english only logging messages in the code. Currently only Nova is set up for message translations (through Launchpad Rosetta [1]). We used to have 100% coverage in Japanese and French, and good Spanish coverage. Today the coverage dropped to 20%. I agree that it has value only if done properly and across the board. The original translations effort was pushed by the Japanese community to get Japanese errors in logs. We should definitely have a discussion at the Folsom design summit to get some consistency in core projects in that area. [1] https://translations.launchpad.net/nova -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) Release Manager, OpenStack ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Hi all, I was just wondering if I could get clarification on something I never understood related to i8ln. In nova HACKING.rst there is a line that mentions how log messages should be using gettext for i8ln. Is it common in other companies to attempt to internationalize log messages? I've seen this throughout the different openstack code and never quite understood why. I can understand horizon being internationalized, but debugging/error/warning (logging) messages? Isn't that meant to be read by a developer, who will most likely understand english (to some degree). ?? -Josh ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Josh, you raise an interesting point. This also affects the ability to search on these terms. On the other hand, having log messages in a language that the user doesn't understand will require those users to seek assistance when they might otherwise be able to solve the problems themselves. It might be an interesting exercise to provide log messages in two languages (one always being English), if we don't simply standardize on English. -- Eric Windisch On Monday, February 13, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Joshua Harlow wrote: Question on i8ln? Hi all, I was just wondering if I could get clarification on something I never understood related to i8ln. In nova HACKING.rst there is a line that mentions how log messages should be using gettext for i8ln. Is it common in other companies to attempt to internationalize log messages? I’ve seen this throughout the different openstack code and never quite understood why. I can understand horizon being internationalized, but debugging/error/warning (logging) messages? Isn’t that meant to be read by a developer, who will most likely understand english (to some degree). ?? -Josh ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net (mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net) Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Hi Josh, I cannot speak about the i18n specifics in OpenStack, but let me give you an answer to the general question. I added a slide to a presentation last week that uses the graph at http://www.internetworldstats.com/top20.htm I recommend you check it out. The title of the slide is English is not the only language, infact for the majoring of Internet users, English is not the first language. Yes, the tech savvy people probably do understand English, but they do not use it by default. As a speaker in many different countries, I always see people use native search engines (e.g. German, Espanol etc), it is because that is what they know. Many web sites (my own ronaldbradford.com) for example does not rate well in foreign languages. The same thought applies to the actual software that runs site and products and is supported by those that do not use English as a first language. Why should a message be in English and not Spanish? The ability for foreign language error messages enables more developers from those countries to actively contribute without a requirement of a language. Regards Ronald On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Joshua Harlow harlo...@yahoo-inc.comwrote: Hi all, I was just wondering if I could get clarification on something I never understood related to i8ln. In nova HACKING.rst there is a line that mentions how log messages should be using gettext for i8ln. Is it common in other companies to attempt to internationalize log messages? I’ve seen this throughout the different openstack code and never quite understood why. I can understand horizon being internationalized, but debugging/error/warning (logging) messages? Isn’t that meant to be read by a developer, who will most likely understand english (to some degree). ?? -Josh ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Joshua, most of non-english speaking developers I know try to use english for class names, methods, fields, constants... English is the 'lingua franca' for code, so even developers with bad english level like me try to use english all the time... so internationalized logging messages do not make sense from my perspective. And sometimes translations are awful, or even hilarious. So +1 for english only logging messages in the code. Cheers Diego P.D.: I know this is the kind of topic everybody has an opinion, so I hope nobody feels attacked ;-) -- Diego Parrilla http://www.stackops.com/*CEO* *www.stackops.com | * diego.parri...@stackops.com** | +34 649 94 43 29 | skype:diegoparrilla* * http://www.stackops.com/ ** On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 9:50 PM, Joshua Harlow harlo...@yahoo-inc.comwrote: Hi all, I was just wondering if I could get clarification on something I never understood related to i8ln. In nova HACKING.rst there is a line that mentions how log messages should be using gettext for i8ln. Is it common in other companies to attempt to internationalize log messages? I’ve seen this throughout the different openstack code and never quite understood why. I can understand horizon being internationalized, but debugging/error/warning (logging) messages? Isn’t that meant to be read by a developer, who will most likely understand english (to some degree). ?? -Josh ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Sure but to contribute they have to understand python which itself is english based?? I can understand for sys-ops people that can't understand english this might be useful, but then they are running in unix which is also english based. For FE (front-end facing) sites I completely agree that, those must be made i8ln accessible. But at a code/logging level? I thought english won at that level (since if not all programming languages that I know of are english based - minus brainfuck, haha). But maybe this is just my bias, from working at a company that does this (code in english, comments in english). Do other open source projects attempt to do this? I've never seen apache log messages in different languages, or hadoop logging in different languages, but maybe that's just my lack of experience/not using that feature. -Josh On 2/13/12 1:09 PM, Ronald Bradford ronald.bradf...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Josh, I cannot speak about the i18n specifics in OpenStack, but let me give you an answer to the general question. I added a slide to a presentation last week that uses the graph at http://www.internetworldstats.com/top20.htm I recommend you check it out. The title of the slide is English is not the only language, infact for the majoring of Internet users, English is not the first language. Yes, the tech savvy people probably do understand English, but they do not use it by default. As a speaker in many different countries, I always see people use native search engines (e.g. German, Espanol etc), it is because that is what they know. Many web sites (my own ronaldbradford.com http://ronaldbradford.com ) for example does not rate well in foreign languages. The same thought applies to the actual software that runs site and products and is supported by those that do not use English as a first language. Why should a message be in English and not Spanish? The ability for foreign language error messages enables more developers from those countries to actively contribute without a requirement of a language. Regards Ronald On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Joshua Harlow harlo...@yahoo-inc.com wrote: Hi all, I was just wondering if I could get clarification on something I never understood related to i8ln. In nova HACKING.rst there is a line that mentions how log messages should be using gettext for i8ln. Is it common in other companies to attempt to internationalize log messages? I've seen this throughout the different openstack code and never quite understood why. I can understand horizon being internationalized, but debugging/error/warning (logging) messages? Isn't that meant to be read by a developer, who will most likely understand english (to some degree). ?? -Josh ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack https://launchpad.net/%7Eopenstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack https://launchpad.net/%7Eopenstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Josh, I think the problem is that there are different levels of logging. DEBUG messages can more safely be forced to English than INFO messages, in my opinion. The compromise solution might be to i18n all logs, but provide error codes which can be looked up and are thus universal and remain useful for debugging purposes. -- Eric Windisch On Monday, February 13, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Joshua Harlow wrote: Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln? Sure but to contribute they have to understand python which itself is english based?? I can understand for sys-ops people that can’t understand english this might be useful, but then they are running in unix which is also english based. For FE (front-end facing) sites I completely agree that, those must be made i8ln accessible. But at a code/logging level? I thought english won at that level (since if not all programming languages that I know of are english based – minus brainfuck, haha). But maybe this is just my bias, from working at a company that does this (code in english, comments in english). Do other open source projects attempt to do this? I’ve never seen apache log messages in different languages, or hadoop logging in different languages, but maybe that’s just my lack of experience/not using that feature. -Josh On 2/13/12 1:09 PM, Ronald Bradford ronald.bradf...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Josh, I cannot speak about the i18n specifics in OpenStack, but let me give you an answer to the general question. I added a slide to a presentation last week that uses the graph at http://www.internetworldstats.com/top20.htm I recommend you check it out. The title of the slide is English is not the only language, infact for the majoring of Internet users, English is not the first language. Yes, the tech savvy people probably do understand English, but they do not use it by default. As a speaker in many different countries, I always see people use native search engines (e.g. German, Espanol etc), it is because that is what they know. Many web sites (my own ronaldbradford.com (http://ronaldbradford.com) http://ronaldbradford.com ) for example does not rate well in foreign languages. The same thought applies to the actual software that runs site and products and is supported by those that do not use English as a first language. Why should a message be in English and not Spanish? The ability for foreign language error messages enables more developers from those countries to actively contribute without a requirement of a language. Regards Ronald On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Joshua Harlow harlo...@yahoo-inc.com wrote: Hi all, I was just wondering if I could get clarification on something I never understood related to i8ln. In nova HACKING.rst there is a line that mentions how log messages should be using gettext for i8ln. Is it common in other companies to attempt to internationalize log messages? I’ve seen this throughout the different openstack code and never quite understood why. I can understand horizon being internationalized, but debugging/error/warning (logging) messages? Isn’t that meant to be read by a developer, who will most likely understand english (to some degree). ?? -Josh ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack https://launchpad.net/%7Eopenstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack https://launchpad.net/%7Eopenstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net (mailto:openstack@lists.launchpad.net) Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Interesting, that is one way of doing it. Is this pretty common with other major open-source projects? Logging just seems like a different place to me, where english seems like it should be required. I am biased of course ;) On 2/13/12 1:39 PM, Eric Windisch e...@cloudscaling.com wrote: Josh, I think the problem is that there are different levels of logging. DEBUG messages can more safely be forced to English than INFO messages, in my opinion. The compromise solution might be to i18n all logs, but provide error codes which can be looked up and are thus universal and remain useful for debugging purposes. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Open source? I haven't seen it so much as with enterprise apps from shops like IBM. They're valuable as long as they're accompanied with readable text, and not just a code. I'm guessing that you're looking at this from a developer's perspective rather than a support and operations perspective. Developers will understand English, but the operations and especially the support team may not. Having native language log messages has the potential to significantly decrease support costs for users both domestic and abroad (where domestic users might outsource support). -- Eric Windisch On Monday, February 13, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Joshua Harlow wrote: Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln? Interesting, that is one way of doing it. Is this pretty common with other major open-source projects? Logging just seems like a different place to me, where english seems like it should be required. I am biased of course ;) On 2/13/12 1:39 PM, Eric Windisch e...@cloudscaling.com wrote: Josh, I think the problem is that there are different levels of logging. DEBUG messages can more safely be forced to English than INFO messages, in my opinion. The compromise solution might be to i18n all logs, but provide error codes which can be looked up and are thus universal and remain useful for debugging purposes. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
On 2/13/12 3:58 PM, Eric Windisch wrote: I'm guessing that you're looking at this from a developer's perspective rather than a support and operations perspective. Developers will understand English, but the operations and especially the support team may not. Having native language log messages has the potential to significantly decrease support costs for users both domestic and abroad (where domestic users might outsource support). The one thing I consistently use log messages for is googling. If everyone in the world gets the same log message for a given error, that drastically increases the chances that I'll find that log message in a forum post someplace. Doesn't localizing log messages fragment the world of support forums into a zillion language-specific shards? (Full disclosure: I speak English, so this argument may be an unconscious front for Yankee Imperialism.) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Agreed, I do that as well. But I'm also a biased yankee, now a californian (not hippie/ster yet, haha). On 2/13/12 2:37 PM, Andrew Bogott abog...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 2/13/12 3:58 PM, Eric Windisch wrote: I'm guessing that you're looking at this from a developer's perspective rather than a support and operations perspective. Developers will understand English, but the operations and especially the support team may not. Having native language log messages has the potential to significantly decrease support costs for users both domestic and abroad (where domestic users might outsource support). The one thing I consistently use log messages for is googling. If everyone in the world gets the same log message for a given error, that drastically increases the chances that I'll find that log message in a forum post someplace. Doesn't localizing log messages fragment the world of support forums into a zillion language-specific shards? (Full disclosure: I speak English, so this argument may be an unconscious front for Yankee Imperialism.) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln?
Error codes are also searchable, but I agree that text is even more search-aware. However, also as a Yankee, I often find search results for an error string leading me to a site in, say, Russian or Korean. This is a direct result of log messages NOT being i18n'ed. I suppose it swings both ways... -- Eric Windisch On Monday, February 13, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Joshua Harlow wrote: Re: [Openstack] Question on i8ln? Agreed, I do that as well. But I’m also a biased yankee, now a californian (not hippie/ster yet, haha). On 2/13/12 2:37 PM, Andrew Bogott abog...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 2/13/12 3:58 PM, Eric Windisch wrote: I'm guessing that you're looking at this from a developer's perspective rather than a support and operations perspective. Developers will understand English, but the operations and especially the support team may not. Having native language log messages has the potential to significantly decrease support costs for users both domestic and abroad (where domestic users might outsource support). The one thing I consistently use log messages for is googling. If everyone in the world gets the same log message for a given error, that drastically increases the chances that I'll find that log message in a forum post someplace. Doesn't localizing log messages fragment the world of support forums into a zillion language-specific shards? (Full disclosure: I speak English, so this argument may be an unconscious front for Yankee Imperialism.) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openstack Post to : openstack@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openstack More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
