Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Kuvaja, Erno]

> -Original Message-
> From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 9:03 AM
> To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my
> concerns
> 

> 
> Or are you suggesting it is preferable to hide that risk from our
> operators/users, to protect that project team developers ?
> 
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
> 
Unfortunately this seems to be the trend, not only in  
but in society. Everything needs to be everyone friendly and politically 
correct, it's not ok to talk about difficult topics with their real names 
because someone involved might get their feelings hurt, it's not ok to compete 
as losers might get their feelings hurt.

While being bit double edged sword I think this is exact example of such. One 
could argue if the project has reason to exist if saying out loud "it does not 
have diversity in its development community" will kill it. I think there is 
good amount of examples both ways in open source world where abandoned projects 
get picked up as there is people thinking they still have use case and value, 
on the other side maybe promising projects gets forgotten because no-one else 
really felt the urge to keep 'em alive.

Personally I feel this being bit like stamping feature experimental. "Please 
feel free to play around with it, but we do discourage you to deploy it in your 
production unless you're willing to pick up the maintenance of it in the case 
the team decides to do something else." There is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think these should be hiding behind the valance of the big tent and the 
consumer expectations should be set at least close to the reality without them 
needing to do huge amount of detective work. That was the point of the tags in 
first place, no?

Obviously above is just my blunt self. If someone went and rage killed their 
project because of that, good for you, now get yourself together and do it 
again. ;)

- Erno (jokke) Kuvaja

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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Joshua Harlow's message of 2015-09-14 08:41:37 -0700:
> Thierry Carrez wrote:
> > Joshua Harlow wrote:
> >> I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
> >> and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse;
> >
> > I think it's important to see the intent of the tag, rather than only
> > judge on its current proposed name. The big tent is vast, and there are
> > all kinds of projects, more or less mature, in it. The tag system is
> > there to help our ecosystem navigate the big tent by providing specific
> > bits of information about them.
> >
> > One such important bit of information is how risky it is to invest on a
> > given project, how likely is it to still be around tomorrow. Some
> > projects are so dependent on a single organization that they may,
> > literally, disappear in one day when a single person (the CEO of that
> > organization) decides so. I think our ecosystem should know about that,
> > without having to analyze stackalytics data. This is why I support
> > creating a tag describing project teams that are *extremely* fragile, at
> > the other end of the spectrum from projects that are "healthily diverse".
> >
> >> I really
> >> hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may
> >> have created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they
> >> were stamped with a similar tag...
> >
> > The thing is, one of the requirements to become an official OpenStack
> > project in the "integrated release" model was to reach a given level of
> > diversity in contributors. So "our" OpenStack projects just could not
> > officially exist if they would have been stamped with a similar tag.
> >
> > The big tent is more inclusive, as we no longer consider diversity
> > before we approve a project. The tag is the other side of the coin: we
> > still need to inform our ecosystem that some projects are less mature or
> > more fragile than others. The tag doesn't prevent the project to exist
> > in OpenStack, it just informs our users that there is a level of risk
> > associated with it.
> >
> > Or are you suggesting it is preferable to hide that risk from our
> > operators/users, to protect that project team developers ?
> 
> Not really. I get the idea of informing operators/users about how this 
> project may need more contributors. I just want it to be a positive 
> statement vs. a negative one if possible; and I'd really like for the TC 
> to also have some kind of proposal for helping those projects get to be 
> more diverse (vs just labeling them).
> 
> Some ideas already mentioned + new ones:
> 
> * Put the project on some kind of 'help wanted' page.
> * Help said projects sign-up for google summer of code (that may help 
> increase diversity?).

We're talking specifically about affiliation diversity. I'm not sure how
we would indicate student affiliation (independent? their university?
the company of their mentor?). I'm also not sure that a few short-term
helpers is necessarily going to improve any project's overall situation
in terms of affiliation diversity.

Doug

> * Something else?
> 
> >
> 

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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Joshua Harlow]

Thierry Carrez wrote:

Joshua Harlow wrote:

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse;


I think it's important to see the intent of the tag, rather than only
judge on its current proposed name. The big tent is vast, and there are
all kinds of projects, more or less mature, in it. The tag system is
there to help our ecosystem navigate the big tent by providing specific
bits of information about them.

One such important bit of information is how risky it is to invest on a
given project, how likely is it to still be around tomorrow. Some
projects are so dependent on a single organization that they may,
literally, disappear in one day when a single person (the CEO of that
organization) decides so. I think our ecosystem should know about that,
without having to analyze stackalytics data. This is why I support
creating a tag describing project teams that are *extremely* fragile, at
the other end of the spectrum from projects that are "healthily diverse".


I really
hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may
have created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they
were stamped with a similar tag...


The thing is, one of the requirements to become an official OpenStack
project in the "integrated release" model was to reach a given level of
diversity in contributors. So "our" OpenStack projects just could not
officially exist if they would have been stamped with a similar tag.

The big tent is more inclusive, as we no longer consider diversity
before we approve a project. The tag is the other side of the coin: we
still need to inform our ecosystem that some projects are less mature or
more fragile than others. The tag doesn't prevent the project to exist
in OpenStack, it just informs our users that there is a level of risk
associated with it.

Or are you suggesting it is preferable to hide that risk from our
operators/users, to protect that project team developers ?


Not really. I get the idea of informing operators/users about how this 
project may need more contributors. I just want it to be a positive 
statement vs. a negative one if possible; and I'd really like for the TC 
to also have some kind of proposal for helping those projects get to be 
more diverse (vs just labeling them).


Some ideas already mentioned + new ones:

* Put the project on some kind of 'help wanted' page.
* Help said projects sign-up for google summer of code (that may help 
increase diversity?).

* Something else?





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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Dolph Mathews]

Perhaps gamify the tagging process? By inverting the tagging convention
from something negative to something positive like
"sponsored-by-company-x", you're offering bragging rights to companies that
are the sole sponsors of projects. "Here's a list of projects that Company
X directly supports, exclusively." It's a marketing advantage: they're the
experts on the project, etc. For successful projects, diversification
happens naturally. I see no benefit from casting such projects in a
negative light.

The TC can view the same tag with a more critical eye.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Joshua Harlow  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and I
> just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:
>
>
> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309
>
> I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
> projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects
> do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to
> ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that gets
> created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really really
> considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a project (it
> may effectively ~kill~ that project).
>
> I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or other
> similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually help
> out projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps by
> actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety of
> companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or
> something). I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter
> actually tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad,
> figure out how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.
>
> I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
> and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope
> that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have
> created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they were
> stamped with a similar tag...
>
> - Josh
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Fox, Kevin M]

OpenSSL is a recent case. Everyone relied upon it in production but it just 
wasn't getting the support it needed to be healthy, and everyone suffered. An 
event shone light on the problem and its getting better. But it was an 
unfortunate event that caused people to look at it. It would be better if it 
could be done more thoughtfully, which I think the tag is attempting to do. So, 
it doesn't just happen to fledgling projects, but old, well established ones 
too.

Thanks,
Kevin

From: Kuvaja, Erno [kuv...@hpe.com]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 4:54 AM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my 
concerns

> -Original Message-
> From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org]
> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 9:03 AM
> To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
> Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my
> concerns
>

>
> Or are you suggesting it is preferable to hide that risk from our
> operators/users, to protect that project team developers ?
>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>
Unfortunately this seems to be the trend, not only in  
but in society. Everything needs to be everyone friendly and politically 
correct, it's not ok to talk about difficult topics with their real names 
because someone involved might get their feelings hurt, it's not ok to compete 
as losers might get their feelings hurt.

While being bit double edged sword I think this is exact example of such. One 
could argue if the project has reason to exist if saying out loud "it does not 
have diversity in its development community" will kill it. I think there is 
good amount of examples both ways in open source world where abandoned projects 
get picked up as there is people thinking they still have use case and value, 
on the other side maybe promising projects gets forgotten because no-one else 
really felt the urge to keep 'em alive.

Personally I feel this being bit like stamping feature experimental. "Please 
feel free to play around with it, but we do discourage you to deploy it in your 
production unless you're willing to pick up the maintenance of it in the case 
the team decides to do something else." There is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think these should be hiding behind the valance of the big tent and the 
consumer expectations should be set at least close to the reality without them 
needing to do huge amount of detective work. That was the point of the tags in 
first place, no?

Obviously above is just my blunt self. If someone went and rage killed their 
project because of that, good for you, now get yourself together and do it 
again. ;)

- Erno (jokke) Kuvaja

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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Fox, Kevin M]

This might encourage companies to create new projects rather then support 
existing ones to get their name on something. That would be horrible.

Thanks,
Kevin

From: Dolph Mathews [dolph.math...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 8:50 AM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my 
concerns

Perhaps gamify the tagging process? By inverting the tagging convention from 
something negative to something positive like "sponsored-by-company-x", you're 
offering bragging rights to companies that are the sole sponsors of projects. 
"Here's a list of projects that Company X directly supports, exclusively." It's 
a marketing advantage: they're the experts on the project, etc. For successful 
projects, diversification happens naturally. I see no benefit from casting such 
projects in a negative light.

The TC can view the same tag with a more critical eye.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Joshua Harlow 
<harlo...@outlook.com<mailto:harlo...@outlook.com>> wrote:
Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and I just 
wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:

http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming projects 
and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects do start off 
with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to ensure that we send a 
positive note with any tag like this that gets created and applied and that we 
all (especially the TC) really really considers the negative connotations of 
applying that tag to a project (it may effectively ~kill~ that project).

I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or other 
similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually help out 
projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps by actively 
listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety of companies on 
the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or something). I'd much 
rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter actually tries to help 
projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad, figure out how to fix 
yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better, and not 
via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope that folks 
on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have created and ask how 
would their own project have turned out if they were stamped with a similar 
tag...

- Josh

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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Flavio Percoco]

On 11/09/15 12:26 -0700, Joshua Harlow wrote:

Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) 
and I just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:


http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming 
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most 
projects do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted 
to try to ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this 
that gets created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) 
really really considers the negative connotations of applying that tag 
to a project (it may effectively ~kill~ that project).


I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or 
other similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to 
actually help out projects with those potential tags in the first 
place (say perhaps by actively listing projects that may need more 
contributors from a variety of companies on the openstack blog under 
say a 'HELP WANTED' page or something). I'd much rather have that vs. 
any said tags, because the latter actually tries to help projects, vs 
just stamping them with a 'you are bad, figure out how to fix 
yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.


I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community 
better, and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I 
really hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects 
they may have created and ask how would their own project have turned 
out if they were stamped with a similar tag...


While I agree the wording might not be the best, I also think it
isn't, by any means, trying to send a message such as "Stay away from
this project".

The issue with diversity in projects is real and it not only affects
the project but the consumers of such project as well. Tags ought to
be objective and we should provide as much relevant information as
possible for both, the developers community and the users community.

You mentioned that this tag may kill the project but I'd argue that it
that could also help the project. One of the issues I believe we're
facing with the big tent is that everyone wants to be part of the show
- It was true even before the big tent, it's just that it's easier to
get in now - but one of the things we're lacking of is good
information about where contributions should go to. Having projects
with diversity issues tagged may actually help identifying places were
newcomers may want to go and contribute to.

In the Big Tent we don't just need new acts, we also need people
willing to participate in existing ones.

FWIW, Zaqar is one of the projects that would fall into the category
of the ones that would be tagged and I honestly think that'll be good
for the project as it's becoming a more relevant piece for other
projects and the tag may raise awareness of what issues the community
currently has.

To your point about helping projects grow and improve. I fully agree
but it's also important to note that the TC members are not holding
their hands. One thing that came out of Liberty is the
project-team-guide[0], which is not just a guide to "how be part of
OpenStack" but rather a guide that'll, hopefully, help projects build
a better and healthier community that can grow.

In summary, I agree that the tag could, perhaps, use a more positive
name but I disagree with your thoughts that it's a negative tag that
will just harm projects. I also agree the TC should help projects grow
as much as possible but it'd be unfair to say nothing has been done.

Again, tags ought to be objective and honest w.r.t *both* communities,
the users' and devs'. I'm happy you brought this up.

Cheers,
Flavio

[0] http://docs.openstack.org/project-team-guide/



- Josh

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--
@flaper87
Flavio Percoco


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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Thierry Carrez]

Joshua Harlow wrote:
> I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
> and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse;

I think it's important to see the intent of the tag, rather than only
judge on its current proposed name. The big tent is vast, and there are
all kinds of projects, more or less mature, in it. The tag system is
there to help our ecosystem navigate the big tent by providing specific
bits of information about them.

One such important bit of information is how risky it is to invest on a
given project, how likely is it to still be around tomorrow. Some
projects are so dependent on a single organization that they may,
literally, disappear in one day when a single person (the CEO of that
organization) decides so. I think our ecosystem should know about that,
without having to analyze stackalytics data. This is why I support
creating a tag describing project teams that are *extremely* fragile, at
the other end of the spectrum from projects that are "healthily diverse".

> I really
> hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may
> have created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they
> were stamped with a similar tag...

The thing is, one of the requirements to become an official OpenStack
project in the "integrated release" model was to reach a given level of
diversity in contributors. So "our" OpenStack projects just could not
officially exist if they would have been stamped with a similar tag.

The big tent is more inclusive, as we no longer consider diversity
before we approve a project. The tag is the other side of the coin: we
still need to inform our ecosystem that some projects are less mature or
more fragile than others. The tag doesn't prevent the project to exist
in OpenStack, it just informs our users that there is a level of risk
associated with it.

Or are you suggesting it is preferable to hide that risk from our
operators/users, to protect that project team developers ?

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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[openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Joshua Harlow]

Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and 
I just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:


http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming 
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most 
projects do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to 
try to ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that 
gets created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really 
really considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a 
project (it may effectively ~kill~ that project).


I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or 
other similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to 
actually help out projects with those potential tags in the first place 
(say perhaps by actively listing projects that may need more 
contributors from a variety of companies on the openstack blog under say 
a 'HELP WANTED' page or something). I'd much rather have that vs. any 
said tags, because the latter actually tries to help projects, vs just 
stamping them with a 'you are bad, figure out how to fix yourself, 
because you are not diverse' tag.


I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better, 
and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really 
hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may 
have created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they 
were stamped with a similar tag...


- Josh

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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Shamail Tahir]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Joshua Harlow  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and I
> just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:
>
>
> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309
>
> I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
> projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects
> do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to
> ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that gets
> created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really really
> considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a project (it
> may effectively ~kill~ that project).
>
> I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or other
> similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually help
> out projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps by
> actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety of
> companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or
> something). I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter
> actually tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad,
> figure out how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.
>
> I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
> and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope
> that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have
> created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they were
> stamped with a similar tag...
>

I agree with Josh and, furthermore, maybe a similar "warning" could be
implicitly made by helping the community understand why the
"diverse-affiliation" tag matters.  If we (through education on tags in
general) stated that the reason diverse-affiliation matters, amongst other
things, is because it shows that the project can potentially survive a
single contributor changing their involvement then wouldn't that achieve
the same purpose of showing stability/mindshare/collaboration for projects
with diverse-affiliation tag (versus those that don't have it) and make
them more "preferred" in a sense?

Thanks,
Shamail


> - Josh
>
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-- 
Thanks,
Shamail Tahir
t: @ShamailXD
tz: Eastern Time
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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Vipul Sabhaya]

Thanks for starting this thread Josh.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Joshua Harlow 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and I
> just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:
>
>
> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309
>
> I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
> projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects
> do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to
> ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that gets
> created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really really
> considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a project (it
> may effectively ~kill~ that project).
>
> Completely agree. Projects that don’t automatically fit into the
‘stater-kit’ type of tag (e.g. Cue) are going to take longer to really
build a community.  It doesn’t mean that the project isn’t active, or that
the team is not willing to fix bugs, or that operators should be afraid to
run it.


> I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or other
> similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually help
> out projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps by
> actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety of
> companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or
> something). I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter
> actually tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad,
> figure out how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.
>
>
+1.  If the TC can play a role in helping projects build their community, a
lot more of the smaller projects would be much more successful.


> I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
> and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope
> that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have
> created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they were
> stamped with a similar tag...
>
> - Josh
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Jim Meyer]

On Sep 11, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Shamail Tahir  wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Joshua Harlow  > wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and I 
> just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:
> 
> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309
>  
> 
> 
> I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming projects 
> and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects do start 
> off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to ensure that we 
> send a positive note with any tag like this that gets created and applied and 
> that we all (especially the TC) really really considers the negative 
> connotations of applying that tag to a project (it may effectively ~kill~ 
> that project).
> 
> I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or other 
> similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually help out 
> projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps by 
> actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety of 
> companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or something). 
> I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter actually 
> tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad, figure out 
> how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.
> 
> I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better, and 
> not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope that 
> folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have created and 
> ask how would their own project have turned out if they were stamped with a 
> similar tag…

First, strongly agree:

Tags should be positive attributes or encouragement, not negative or 
discouraging. I think they should also be as objectively true as possible. 
Which Monty Taylor said later[1] in the discussion and Jay Pipes reiterated[2].

> I agree with Josh and, furthermore, maybe a similar "warning" could be 
> implicitly made by helping the community understand why the 
> "diverse-affiliation" tag matters.  If we (through education on tags in 
> general) stated that the reason diverse-affiliation matters, amongst other 
> things, is because it shows that the project can potentially survive a single 
> contributor changing their involvement then wouldn't that achieve the same 
> purpose of showing stability/mindshare/collaboration for projects with 
> diverse-affiliation tag (versus those that don't have it) and make them more 
> "preferred" in a sense?

I think I agree with others, most notably Doug Hellman[3] in the TC discussion; 
we need a marker of the other end of the spectrum. The absence of information 
is only significant if you know what’s missing and it’s importance.

Separately, I agree that more education around tags and their importance is 
needed.

I understand the concern is that we want to highlight the need for diversity, 
and I believe that instead of “danger-not-diverse” we’d be better served by 
“increase-diversity” or “needs-diversity” as the other end of the spectrum from 
“diverse-affiliation.” And I’ll go rant on the review now[4]. =]

—j

[1] 
http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-378
 

[2] 
http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-422
 

[3] 
http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-330
 

[4] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/218725/ 



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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[gord chung]

On 11/09/2015 3:26 PM, Joshua Harlow wrote:

Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) 
and I just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:


http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309 



I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming 
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most 
projects do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted 
to try to ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this 
that gets created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) 
really really considers the negative connotations of applying that tag 
to a project (it may effectively ~kill~ that project).


I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or 
other similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to 
actually help out projects with those potential tags in the first 
place (say perhaps by actively listing projects that may need more 
contributors from a variety of companies on the openstack blog under 
say a 'HELP WANTED' page or something). I'd much rather have that vs. 
any said tags, because the latter actually tries to help projects, vs 
just stamping them with a 'you are bad, figure out how to fix 
yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.


I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community 
better, and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I 
really hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects 
they may have created and ask how would their own project have turned 
out if they were stamped with a similar tag...


completely agree with everything here... i made a comment on the 
patch[1] regarding this and was told the idea was that the purpose of 
the tag was to note the potential fragility of a project if the leading 
company were to decide to pull out. this seems like a valid item to 
track but with that said, the existing wording of the proposal is not that.


[1] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/218725/

cheers,

--
gord


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Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

[Joe Gordon]

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Jim Meyer  wrote:

> On Sep 11, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Shamail Tahir  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Joshua Harlow 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and
>> I just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:
>>
>>
>> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309
>>
>> I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
>> projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects
>> do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to
>> ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that gets
>> created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really really
>> considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a project (it
>> may effectively ~kill~ that project).
>>
>> I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or
>> other similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually
>> help out projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps
>> by actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety
>> of companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or
>> something). I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter
>> actually tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad,
>> figure out how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.
>>
>> I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
>> and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope
>> that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have
>> created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they were
>> stamped with a similar tag…
>
>
> First, strongly agree:
>
> *Tags should be positive attributes or encouragement, not negative or
> discouraging. *I think they should also be as objectively true as
> possible. Which Monty Taylor said later[1] in the discussion and Jay Pipes
> reiterated[2].
>
> I agree with Josh and, furthermore, maybe a similar "warning" could be
> implicitly made by helping the community understand why the
> "diverse-affiliation" tag matters.  If we (through education on tags in
> general) stated that the reason diverse-affiliation matters, amongst other
> things, is because it shows that the project can potentially survive a
> single contributor changing their involvement then wouldn't that achieve
> the same purpose of showing stability/mindshare/collaboration for projects
> with diverse-affiliation tag (versus those that don't have it) and make
> them more "preferred" in a sense?
>
>
> I think I agree with others, most notably Doug Hellman[3] in the TC
> discussion; we need a marker of the other end of the spectrum. The absence
> of information is only significant if you know what’s missing and it’s
> importance.
>
> Separately, I agree that more education around tags and their importance
> is needed.
>
> I understand the concern is that we want to highlight the need for
> diversity, and I believe that instead of “danger-not-diverse” we’d be
> better served by “increase-diversity” or “needs-diversity” as the other end
> of the spectrum from “diverse-affiliation.” And I’ll go rant on the review
> now[4]. =]
>

Thank you for actually providing a review of the patch. I will respond to
the feedback in gerrit.



>
> —j
>
> [1]
> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-378
> [2]
> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-422
> [3]
> http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-330
> [4] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/218725/
>
>
>
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