Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
If you need a local guy to go twist Jon Corbets arm, there are plenty of us within arms/cars reach. I think this would be the best possible outcome. Although LWN is primarily subscriber funded, realize that many of those subscribers are corporate subscribers that provide access to all their employees. Having corporate subscribers in addition to the OpenStack Foundation is probably key. I'm not privy to their detailed business model, but that's my experience and present understanding. On Wed, May 6, 2015 at 7:13 PM, Hugh Blemings h...@blemings.org wrote: On 6/05/2015 23:34, James Bottomley wrote: On Wed, 2015-05-06 at 11:54 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hugh Blemings wrote: +2 I think asking LWN if they have the bandwidth and interest to do this would be ideal - they've credibility in the Free/Open Source space and a proven track record. Nice people too. On the bandwidth side, as a regular reader I was under the impression that they struggled with their load already, but I guess if it comes with funding that could be an option. On the interest side, my past tries to invite them to the OpenStack Summit so that they could cover it (the way they cover other conferences) were rejected, so I have doubts in that area as well. Anyone having a personal connection that we could leverage to pursue that option further ? Sure, be glad to. I've added Jon to the cc list (if his openstack mail sorting scripts operate like mine, that will get his attention). I already had a preliminary discussion with him: lwn.net is interested but would need to hire an extra person to cover the added load. That makes it quite a big business investment for them. Excellent - I think Jon and Co. could bring a great deal to the table here and if that means finding a way to provide funding that would be effort well spent. Cheers, Hugh __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
Joe Gordon wrote: On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 9:53 AM, James Bottomley wrote: On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 10:45 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: The issue is, who can write such content ? It is a full-time job to produce authored content, you can't just copy (or link to) content produced elsewhere. It takes a very special kind of individual to write such content: the person has to be highly technical, able to tackle any topic, and totally connected with the OpenStack development community. That person has to be cross-project and ideally have already-built legitimacy. Here, you're being overly restrictive. Lwn.net isn't staffed by top level kernel maintainers (although it does solicit the occasional article from them). It's staffed by people who gained credibility via their insightful reporting rather than by their contributions. I see no reason why the same model wouldn't work for OpenStack. ++. I have a hunch that like many things (in OpenStack) if you make a space for people to step up, they will. I guess being burnt trying to set that up in the past makes me overly pessimistic. Let's see... Anyone interested in producing that kind of OpenStack Developer Community Digest ? -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
Hugh Blemings wrote: +2 I think asking LWN if they have the bandwidth and interest to do this would be ideal - they've credibility in the Free/Open Source space and a proven track record. Nice people too. On the bandwidth side, as a regular reader I was under the impression that they struggled with their load already, but I guess if it comes with funding that could be an option. On the interest side, my past tries to invite them to the OpenStack Summit so that they could cover it (the way they cover other conferences) were rejected, so I have doubts in that area as well. Anyone having a personal connection that we could leverage to pursue that option further ? -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
On Wed, 2015-05-06 at 11:54 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hugh Blemings wrote: +2 I think asking LWN if they have the bandwidth and interest to do this would be ideal - they've credibility in the Free/Open Source space and a proven track record. Nice people too. On the bandwidth side, as a regular reader I was under the impression that they struggled with their load already, but I guess if it comes with funding that could be an option. On the interest side, my past tries to invite them to the OpenStack Summit so that they could cover it (the way they cover other conferences) were rejected, so I have doubts in that area as well. Anyone having a personal connection that we could leverage to pursue that option further ? Sure, be glad to. I've added Jon to the cc list (if his openstack mail sorting scripts operate like mine, that will get his attention). I already had a preliminary discussion with him: lwn.net is interested but would need to hire an extra person to cover the added load. That makes it quite a big business investment for them. James __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
On 6/05/2015 23:34, James Bottomley wrote: On Wed, 2015-05-06 at 11:54 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Hugh Blemings wrote: +2 I think asking LWN if they have the bandwidth and interest to do this would be ideal - they've credibility in the Free/Open Source space and a proven track record. Nice people too. On the bandwidth side, as a regular reader I was under the impression that they struggled with their load already, but I guess if it comes with funding that could be an option. On the interest side, my past tries to invite them to the OpenStack Summit so that they could cover it (the way they cover other conferences) were rejected, so I have doubts in that area as well. Anyone having a personal connection that we could leverage to pursue that option further ? Sure, be glad to. I've added Jon to the cc list (if his openstack mail sorting scripts operate like mine, that will get his attention). I already had a preliminary discussion with him: lwn.net is interested but would need to hire an extra person to cover the added load. That makes it quite a big business investment for them. Excellent - I think Jon and Co. could bring a great deal to the table here and if that means finding a way to provide funding that would be effort well spent. Cheers, Hugh __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
James Bottomley wrote: Anyone having a personal connection that we could leverage to pursue that option further ? Sure, be glad to. I've added Jon to the cc list (if his openstack mail sorting scripts operate like mine, that will get his attention). I already had a preliminary discussion with him: lwn.net is interested but would need to hire an extra person to cover the added load. That makes it quite a big business investment for them. Thanks James, Let me explore that option on the Foundation side (staff board) and see if there is support for the idea. Or maybe one of our corporate sponsors will take the plunge first :) Expect some delays here since most of the crew is busy preparing for the OpenStack Summit in Vancouver. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 07:22:24PM +, Nikhil Komawar wrote: This is a really nice idea. Idea is indeed nice, but I have to fully agree with all of what Theirry says. I feel the same, that we can offload some I personally don't feel it's about offloading to some hypothetical person who'll magically understand (_and_ keep up) the detailed technical context across the projects to produce such a high-quality developer-oriented newsletter. Taking the venerable LWN as example, those who write most of the articles are folks who're technically very involved (not at a hand-wavy level, giving some directions) in Kernel and related projects. The thorough research completely shines through. It's more than a full-time job given the number of OpenStack projects, and assuming the the cadence of such a newsletter is once a month. of the work from the liaisons and reduce the number of syncs that need to happen. This can be a good source of asynchronous communication however, I still feel that we need to keep a good balance of both. Also, I like the proposed scope of the newsletter. [. . .] -- /kashyap __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
Hiya, On 6/05/2015 2:53, James Bottomley wrote: On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 10:45 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Joe Gordon wrote: [...] To tackle this I would like to propose the idea of a periodic developer oriented newsletter, and if we agree to go forward with this, hopefully the foundation can help us find someone to write newsletter. I've been discussing the idea of a LWN for OpenStack for some time, originally with Mark McLoughlin. For those who don't know it, LWN (lwn.net) is a source of quality tech reporting on Linux in general (and the kernel in particular). It's written by developers and tech reporters and funded by subscribers. An LWN-like OpenStack development newsletter would provide general status, dive into specific features, report on specific talks/conferences, summarize threads etc. It would be tremendously useful to the development community. The issue is, who can write such content ? It is a full-time job to produce authored content, you can't just copy (or link to) content produced elsewhere. It takes a very special kind of individual to write such content: the person has to be highly technical, able to tackle any topic, and totally connected with the OpenStack development community. That person has to be cross-project and ideally have already-built legitimacy. Here, you're being overly restrictive. Lwn.net isn't staffed by top level kernel maintainers (although it does solicit the occasional article from them). It's staffed by people who gained credibility via their insightful reporting rather than by their contributions. I see no reason why the same model wouldn't work for OpenStack. There is one technical difference: in the kernel, you can get all the information from the linux-kernel (and other mailing list) firehose if you're skilled enough to extract it. With OpenStack, openstack-dev isn't enough so you have to do other stuff as well, but that's more or less equivalent to additional research. It's basically the kind of profile every OpenStack company is struggling and fighting to hire. And that rare person should not really want to spend that much time developing (or become CTO of a startup) but prefer to write technical articles about what happens in OpenStack development. I'm not sure such a person exists. And a newsletter actually takes more than one such person, because it's a lot of work (even if not weekly). That's a bit pessimistic: followed to it's logical conclusion it would say that lwn.net can't exist either ... which is a bit of a contradiction. So as much as I'd like this to happen, I'm not convinced it's worth getting excited unless we have clear indication that we would have people willing and able to pull it off. The matter of who pays the bill is secondary -- I just don't think the profile exists. For the matter, I tried to push such an idea in the past and couldn't find anyone to fit the rare profile I think is needed to succeed. All the people I could think of had other more interesting things to do. I don't think things changed -- but I'd love to be proven wrong. Um, I assume you've thought of this already, but have you tried asking lwn.net? As you say above, they already fit the profile. Whether they have the bandwidth is another matter, but I believe their Chief Editor (Jon Corbet) may welcome a broadening of the funding base, particularly if the OpenStack foundation were offering seed funding for the endeavour. +2 I think asking LWN if they have the bandwidth and interest to do this would be ideal - they've credibility in the Free/Open Source space and a proven track record. Nice people too. More broadly I think these sorts of links could help OpenStack grow generally - no one would claim the Linux kernel development process to have been perfect, but it is at least of comparable complexity, breadth of development community and mix of personal and commercial interests. Cheers, Hugh __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 10:45 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Joe Gordon wrote: [...] To tackle this I would like to propose the idea of a periodic developer oriented newsletter, and if we agree to go forward with this, hopefully the foundation can help us find someone to write newsletter. I've been discussing the idea of a LWN for OpenStack for some time, originally with Mark McLoughlin. For those who don't know it, LWN (lwn.net) is a source of quality tech reporting on Linux in general (and the kernel in particular). It's written by developers and tech reporters and funded by subscribers. An LWN-like OpenStack development newsletter would provide general status, dive into specific features, report on specific talks/conferences, summarize threads etc. It would be tremendously useful to the development community. The issue is, who can write such content ? It is a full-time job to produce authored content, you can't just copy (or link to) content produced elsewhere. It takes a very special kind of individual to write such content: the person has to be highly technical, able to tackle any topic, and totally connected with the OpenStack development community. That person has to be cross-project and ideally have already-built legitimacy. Here, you're being overly restrictive. Lwn.net isn't staffed by top level kernel maintainers (although it does solicit the occasional article from them). It's staffed by people who gained credibility via their insightful reporting rather than by their contributions. I see no reason why the same model wouldn't work for OpenStack. There is one technical difference: in the kernel, you can get all the information from the linux-kernel (and other mailing list) firehose if you're skilled enough to extract it. With OpenStack, openstack-dev isn't enough so you have to do other stuff as well, but that's more or less equivalent to additional research. It's basically the kind of profile every OpenStack company is struggling and fighting to hire. And that rare person should not really want to spend that much time developing (or become CTO of a startup) but prefer to write technical articles about what happens in OpenStack development. I'm not sure such a person exists. And a newsletter actually takes more than one such person, because it's a lot of work (even if not weekly). That's a bit pessimistic: followed to it's logical conclusion it would say that lwn.net can't exist either ... which is a bit of a contradiction. So as much as I'd like this to happen, I'm not convinced it's worth getting excited unless we have clear indication that we would have people willing and able to pull it off. The matter of who pays the bill is secondary -- I just don't think the profile exists. For the matter, I tried to push such an idea in the past and couldn't find anyone to fit the rare profile I think is needed to succeed. All the people I could think of had other more interesting things to do. I don't think things changed -- but I'd love to be proven wrong. Um, I assume you've thought of this already, but have you tried asking lwn.net? As you say above, they already fit the profile. Whether they have the bandwidth is another matter, but I believe their Chief Editor (Jon Corbet) may welcome a broadening of the funding base, particularly if the OpenStack foundation were offering seed funding for the endeavour. James __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
James Bottomley mailto:james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com May 5, 2015 at 9:53 AM On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 10:45 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Joe Gordon wrote: [...] To tackle this I would like to propose the idea of a periodic developer oriented newsletter, and if we agree to go forward with this, hopefully the foundation can help us find someone to write newsletter. I've been discussing the idea of a LWN for OpenStack for some time, originally with Mark McLoughlin. For those who don't know it, LWN (lwn.net) is a source of quality tech reporting on Linux in general (and the kernel in particular). It's written by developers and tech reporters and funded by subscribers. An LWN-like OpenStack development newsletter would provide general status, dive into specific features, report on specific talks/conferences, summarize threads etc. It would be tremendously useful to the development community. The issue is, who can write such content ? It is a full-time job to produce authored content, you can't just copy (or link to) content produced elsewhere. It takes a very special kind of individual to write such content: the person has to be highly technical, able to tackle any topic, and totally connected with the OpenStack development community. That person has to be cross-project and ideally have already-built legitimacy. Here, you're being overly restrictive. Lwn.net isn't staffed by top level kernel maintainers (although it does solicit the occasional article from them). It's staffed by people who gained credibility via their insightful reporting rather than by their contributions. I see no reason why the same model wouldn't work for OpenStack. There is one technical difference: in the kernel, you can get all the information from the linux-kernel (and other mailing list) firehose if you're skilled enough to extract it. With OpenStack, openstack-dev isn't enough so you have to do other stuff as well, but that's more or less equivalent to additional research. It's basically the kind of profile every OpenStack company is struggling and fighting to hire. And that rare person should not really want to spend that much time developing (or become CTO of a startup) but prefer to write technical articles about what happens in OpenStack development. I'm not sure such a person exists. And a newsletter actually takes more than one such person, because it's a lot of work (even if not weekly). That's a bit pessimistic: followed to it's logical conclusion it would say that lwn.net can't exist either ... which is a bit of a contradiction. So as much as I'd like this to happen, I'm not convinced it's worth getting excited unless we have clear indication that we would have people willing and able to pull it off. The matter of who pays the bill is secondary -- I just don't think the profile exists. For the matter, I tried to push such an idea in the past and couldn't find anyone to fit the rare profile I think is needed to succeed. All the people I could think of had other more interesting things to do. I don't think things changed -- but I'd love to be proven wrong. Um, I assume you've thought of this already, but have you tried asking lwn.net? As you say above, they already fit the profile. Whether they have the bandwidth is another matter, but I believe their Chief Editor (Jon Corbet) may welcome a broadening of the funding base, particularly if the OpenStack foundation were offering seed funding for the endeavour. +1 to that, although lwn.net is partially subscriber only (yes I'm a subscriber); so if say we had a 'openstack section' there (just like there is a kernel section, or a security section, or a distributions section...) how would that work? It'd be neat to have what we do on lwn.net vs having a openstack clone/similar thing to lwn.net (because IMHO we already make ourselves 'special' enough...). -Josh James __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev Thierry Carrez mailto:thie...@openstack.org May 5, 2015 at 1:45 AM I've been discussing the idea of a LWN for OpenStack for some time, originally with Mark McLoughlin. For those who don't know it, LWN (lwn.net) is a source of quality tech reporting on Linux in general (and the kernel in particular). It's written by developers and tech reporters and funded by subscribers. An LWN-like OpenStack development newsletter would provide general status, dive into specific features, report on specific talks/conferences, summarize threads etc. It would be tremendously useful to the development community. The issue is, who can write such content ? It is a full-time job to produce authored content, you can't just copy (or link to) content produced elsewhere. It takes a very special kind of individual to write such
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
Joe Gordon wrote: [...] To tackle this I would like to propose the idea of a periodic developer oriented newsletter, and if we agree to go forward with this, hopefully the foundation can help us find someone to write newsletter. I've been discussing the idea of a LWN for OpenStack for some time, originally with Mark McLoughlin. For those who don't know it, LWN (lwn.net) is a source of quality tech reporting on Linux in general (and the kernel in particular). It's written by developers and tech reporters and funded by subscribers. An LWN-like OpenStack development newsletter would provide general status, dive into specific features, report on specific talks/conferences, summarize threads etc. It would be tremendously useful to the development community. The issue is, who can write such content ? It is a full-time job to produce authored content, you can't just copy (or link to) content produced elsewhere. It takes a very special kind of individual to write such content: the person has to be highly technical, able to tackle any topic, and totally connected with the OpenStack development community. That person has to be cross-project and ideally have already-built legitimacy. It's basically the kind of profile every OpenStack company is struggling and fighting to hire. And that rare person should not really want to spend that much time developing (or become CTO of a startup) but prefer to write technical articles about what happens in OpenStack development. I'm not sure such a person exists. And a newsletter actually takes more than one such person, because it's a lot of work (even if not weekly). So as much as I'd like this to happen, I'm not convinced it's worth getting excited unless we have clear indication that we would have people willing and able to pull it off. The matter of who pays the bill is secondary -- I just don't think the profile exists. For the matter, I tried to push such an idea in the past and couldn't find anyone to fit the rare profile I think is needed to succeed. All the people I could think of had other more interesting things to do. I don't think things changed -- but I'd love to be proven wrong. -- Thierry Carrez (ttx) __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 9:53 AM, James Bottomley james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com wrote: On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 10:45 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Joe Gordon wrote: [...] To tackle this I would like to propose the idea of a periodic developer oriented newsletter, and if we agree to go forward with this, hopefully the foundation can help us find someone to write newsletter. I've been discussing the idea of a LWN for OpenStack for some time, originally with Mark McLoughlin. For those who don't know it, LWN (lwn.net) is a source of quality tech reporting on Linux in general (and the kernel in particular). It's written by developers and tech reporters and funded by subscribers. An LWN-like OpenStack development newsletter would provide general status, dive into specific features, report on specific talks/conferences, summarize threads etc. It would be tremendously useful to the development community. The issue is, who can write such content ? It is a full-time job to produce authored content, you can't just copy (or link to) content produced elsewhere. It takes a very special kind of individual to write such content: the person has to be highly technical, able to tackle any topic, and totally connected with the OpenStack development community. That person has to be cross-project and ideally have already-built legitimacy. Here, you're being overly restrictive. Lwn.net isn't staffed by top level kernel maintainers (although it does solicit the occasional article from them). It's staffed by people who gained credibility via their insightful reporting rather than by their contributions. I see no reason why the same model wouldn't work for OpenStack. ++. I have a hunch that like many things (in OpenStack) if you make a space for people to step up, they will. There is one technical difference: in the kernel, you can get all the information from the linux-kernel (and other mailing list) firehose if you're skilled enough to extract it. With OpenStack, openstack-dev isn't enough so you have to do other stuff as well, but that's more or less equivalent to additional research. It's basically the kind of profile every OpenStack company is struggling and fighting to hire. And that rare person should not really want to spend that much time developing (or become CTO of a startup) but prefer to write technical articles about what happens in OpenStack development. I'm not sure such a person exists. And a newsletter actually takes more than one such person, because it's a lot of work (even if not weekly). That's a bit pessimistic: followed to it's logical conclusion it would say that lwn.net can't exist either ... which is a bit of a contradiction. So as much as I'd like this to happen, I'm not convinced it's worth getting excited unless we have clear indication that we would have people willing and able to pull it off. The matter of who pays the bill is secondary -- I just don't think the profile exists. For the matter, I tried to push such an idea in the past and couldn't find anyone to fit the rare profile I think is needed to succeed. All the people I could think of had other more interesting things to do. I don't think things changed -- but I'd love to be proven wrong. Um, I assume you've thought of this already, but have you tried asking lwn.net? As you say above, they already fit the profile. Whether they have the bandwidth is another matter, but I believe their Chief Editor (Jon Corbet) may welcome a broadening of the funding base, particularly if the OpenStack foundation were offering seed funding for the endeavour. James __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Stefano Maffulli stef...@openstack.org wrote: Thanks Joe for bringing this up. I have always tried to find topics worth being covered in the weekly newsletter. I assemble that newsletter thinking of developers and operators as the main targets, I'd like both audiences to have one place to look at weekly and skim rapidly to see if they missed something interesting. Over the years I have tried to change it based on feedback I received so this conversation is great to have On 05/04/2015 12:03 PM, Joe Gordon wrote: The  big questions I would like to see answered are: * What are the big challenges each project is currently working on? * What can we learn from each other? * Where are individual projects trying to solve the same problem independently? These are all important and interesting questions. When there were fewer projects it wasn't too hard to keep things together. Nowadays there is a lot more going on and in gerrit, which requires a bit more upfront investment to be useful. To answer these questions one needs to look at a lot of sources, including: * Weekly meeting logs, or hopefully just the notes assuming we get better at taking detailed notes I counted over 80 meetings each week: if they all took excellent notes, with clear #info lines for the relevant stuff, one person would be able probably to parse them all in a couple hours every week to identify items worth reporting. My experience is that IRC meeting logs don't convey anything useful to outsiders. Pick any project log from http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ and you'll see what I mean. Even the best ones don't really mean much to those not into the project itself. I am very skeptical that we can educate all meeting participants to take notes that can be meaningful to outsiders. I am also not sure that the IRC meeting notes are the right place for this. Maybe it would make more sense to educate PTLs and liasons to nudge me with a brief email or log in some sort of notification bucket a quick snippet of text to share with the rest of the contributors. Makes sense to me. * approved specs More than the approved ones, which are easy to spot on specs.openstack.org, I think the new ones proposed are more interesting. Ideally I would find a way to publish draft specs on specs.openstack.org/drafts/ or somehow provide a way for uneducated (to gerrit) readers to more easily discover what's coming. Until a better technical solution exists, I can pull regularly from all status:open changesets from *-specs repositories and put them in a section of the weekly newsletter. You can search for the list of merged specs by age (last updated) to get a decent view of what merged since last week. https://review.openstack.org/#/q/is:merged+age:1week+project:%255Eopenstack/.*-specs,n,z * periodically talk to the PTL of each project to see if any big discussions were discussed else where I think this already happen in the xproject meeting, doesn't it? Things come up in the xproject meeting that we already know to be cross project. If two projects independently are tackling the same issue they may not realize there is room for collaboration. * Topics selected for discussion at summits I'm confused about this: aren't these visible already as part of the schedule? Yes they are, but going through the list of all the topics and making a list of the big ticket items/highlights is still a lot of work. Off the top of my head here are a few topics that would make good candidates for this newsletter: * What are different projects doing with microversioned APIs, I know that at least two projects are tackling this * How has the specs process evolved in each project, we all started out from a common point but seem to have all gone in slightly different directions * What will each projects priorities be in Liberty? Do any of them overlap? * Any process changes that projects have tried that worked or didn't work * How is functional testing evolving in each project Great to have precise examples to work with. It's useful exercise to start from the end and trace back to where the answer will be. How would the answer to these question look like? Would this help with cross project communication? Is this feasible? Other thoughts? I think it would help, it is feasible. Let's keep the ideas rolling :) /stef __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 10:39 -0700, Joshua Harlow wrote: James Bottomley mailto:james.bottom...@hansenpartnership.com May 5, 2015 at 9:53 AM On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 10:45 +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote: Joe Gordon wrote: [...] To tackle this I would like to propose the idea of a periodic developer oriented newsletter, and if we agree to go forward with this, hopefully the foundation can help us find someone to write newsletter. I've been discussing the idea of a LWN for OpenStack for some time, originally with Mark McLoughlin. For those who don't know it, LWN (lwn.net) is a source of quality tech reporting on Linux in general (and the kernel in particular). It's written by developers and tech reporters and funded by subscribers. An LWN-like OpenStack development newsletter would provide general status, dive into specific features, report on specific talks/conferences, summarize threads etc. It would be tremendously useful to the development community. The issue is, who can write such content ? It is a full-time job to produce authored content, you can't just copy (or link to) content produced elsewhere. It takes a very special kind of individual to write such content: the person has to be highly technical, able to tackle any topic, and totally connected with the OpenStack development community. That person has to be cross-project and ideally have already-built legitimacy. Here, you're being overly restrictive. Lwn.net isn't staffed by top level kernel maintainers (although it does solicit the occasional article from them). It's staffed by people who gained credibility via their insightful reporting rather than by their contributions. I see no reason why the same model wouldn't work for OpenStack. There is one technical difference: in the kernel, you can get all the information from the linux-kernel (and other mailing list) firehose if you're skilled enough to extract it. With OpenStack, openstack-dev isn't enough so you have to do other stuff as well, but that's more or less equivalent to additional research. It's basically the kind of profile every OpenStack company is struggling and fighting to hire. And that rare person should not really want to spend that much time developing (or become CTO of a startup) but prefer to write technical articles about what happens in OpenStack development. I'm not sure such a person exists. And a newsletter actually takes more than one such person, because it's a lot of work (even if not weekly). That's a bit pessimistic: followed to it's logical conclusion it would say that lwn.net can't exist either ... which is a bit of a contradiction. So as much as I'd like this to happen, I'm not convinced it's worth getting excited unless we have clear indication that we would have people willing and able to pull it off. The matter of who pays the bill is secondary -- I just don't think the profile exists. For the matter, I tried to push such an idea in the past and couldn't find anyone to fit the rare profile I think is needed to succeed. All the people I could think of had other more interesting things to do. I don't think things changed -- but I'd love to be proven wrong. Um, I assume you've thought of this already, but have you tried asking lwn.net? As you say above, they already fit the profile. Whether they have the bandwidth is another matter, but I believe their Chief Editor (Jon Corbet) may welcome a broadening of the funding base, particularly if the OpenStack foundation were offering seed funding for the endeavour. +1 to that, although lwn.net is partially subscriber only (yes I'm a subscriber); so if say we had a 'openstack section' there (just like there is a kernel section, or a security section, or a distributions section...) how would that work? It'd be neat to have what we do on lwn.net vs having a openstack clone/similar thing to lwn.net (because IMHO we already make ourselves 'special' enough...). These are just details that would need to be ironed out. Lwn is a business as well as a service, so it has to get paid somehow. Subscriptions are how it currently does this. However, the Linux Foundation does sponsor lwn.net to produce some content (the Linux Weather Forecast: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/lwf) which is then freely posted. Assuming you agree with the general principle that lwn.net could do the job, OpenStack could choose to follow the LF model (pay for some of the most relevant general stuff, but leave LWN to pursue subscribers who want the details) or it could choose to develop its own model for working with them. James -Josh James __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
[openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
Before going any further, I am proposing something to make it easier for the developer community to keep track of what other projects are working on. I am not proposing anything to directly help operators or users, that is a separate problem space. In Mark McClain's TC candidacy email he brought up the issue of cross project communication[0]: Our codebase has grown significantly over the years and a contributor must invest significant time to understand and follow every project; however many contributors have limited time must choose a subset of projects to direct their focus. As a result, it becomes important to employ cross project communication to explain major technical decisions, share solutions to project challenges that might be widely applicable, and leverage our collective experience. The TC should seek new ways to facilitate cross project communication that will enable the community to craft improvements to the interfaces between projects as there will be greater familiarity between across the boundary. Better cross project communication will make it easier to share technical solutions and promote a more unified experience across projects. It seems like just about every time I talk to people from different projects I learn about something interesting and relevant that they are working on. While I usually track discussions on the mailing list, it is a poor way of keeping track of what the big issues each project is working on. Stefano's 'OpenStack Community Weekly Newsletter' does a good job of highlighting many things including important mailing list conversations, but it doesn't really answer the question of What is X (Ironic, Nova, Neutron, Cinder, Keystone, Heat etc.) up to? To tackle this I would like to propose the idea of a periodic developer oriented newsletter, and if we agree to go forward with this, hopefully the foundation can help us find someone to write newsletter. Now on to the details. I am not sure what the right cadence for this newsletter would be, but I think weekly is too frequent and once a 6 month cycle would be too infrequent. The big questions I would like to see answered are: * What are the big challenges each project is currently working on? * What can we learn from each other? * Where are individual projects trying to solve the same problem independently? To answer these questions one needs to look at a lot of sources, including: * Weekly meeting logs, or hopefully just the notes assuming we get better at taking detailed notes * approved specs * periodically talk to the PTL of each project to see if any big discussions were discussed else where * Topics selected for discussion at summits Off the top of my head here are a few topics that would make good candidates for this newsletter: * What are different projects doing with microversioned APIs, I know that at least two projects are tackling this * How has the specs process evolved in each project, we all started out from a common point but seem to have all gone in slightly different directions * What will each projects priorities be in Liberty? Do any of them overlap? * Any process changes that projects have tried that worked or didn't work * How is functional testing evolving in each project Would this help with cross project communication? Is this feasible? Other thoughts? best, Joe [0] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-April/062361.html __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
This is a really nice idea. I feel the same, that we can offload some of the work from the liaisons and reduce the number of syncs that need to happen. This can be a good source of asynchronous communication however, I still feel that we need to keep a good balance of both. Also, I like the proposed scope of the newsletter. Thanks, -Nikhil From: Joe Gordon joe.gord...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, May 4, 2015 3:03 PM To: OpenStack Development Mailing List Subject: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter? Before going any further, I am proposing something to make it easier for the developer community to keep track of what other projects are working on. I am not proposing anything to directly help operators or users, that is a separate problem space. In Mark McClain's TC candidacy email he brought up the issue of cross project communication[0]: Our codebase has grown significantly over the years and a contributor must invest significant time to understand and follow every project; however many contributors have limited time must choose a subset of projects to direct their focus. As a result, it becomes important to employ cross project communication to explain major technical decisions, share solutions to project challenges that might be widely applicable, and leverage our collective experience. The TC should seek new ways to facilitate cross project communication that will enable the community to craft improvements to the interfaces between projects as there will be greater familiarity between across the boundary. Better cross project communication will make it easier to share technical solutions and promote a more unified experience across projects. It seems like just about every time I talk to people from different projects I learn about something interesting and relevant that they are working on. While I usually track discussions on the mailing list, it is a poor way of keeping track of what the big issues each project is working on. Stefano's 'OpenStack Community Weekly Newsletter' does a good job of highlighting many things including important mailing list conversations, but it doesn't really answer the question of What is X (Ironic, Nova, Neutron, Cinder, Keystone, Heat etc.) up to? To tackle this I would like to propose the idea of a periodic developer oriented newsletter, and if we agree to go forward with this, hopefully the foundation can help us find someone to write newsletter. Now on to the details. I am not sure what the right cadence for this newsletter would be, but I think weekly is too frequent and once a 6 month cycle would be too infrequent. The big questions I would like to see answered are: * What are the big challenges each project is currently working on? * What can we learn from each other? * Where are individual projects trying to solve the same problem independently? To answer these questions one needs to look at a lot of sources, including: * Weekly meeting logs, or hopefully just the notes assuming we get better at taking detailed notes * approved specs * periodically talk to the PTL of each project to see if any big discussions were discussed else where * Topics selected for discussion at summits Off the top of my head here are a few topics that would make good candidates for this newsletter: * What are different projects doing with microversioned APIs, I know that at least two projects are tackling this * How has the specs process evolved in each project, we all started out from a common point but seem to have all gone in slightly different directions * What will each projects priorities be in Liberty? Do any of them overlap? * Any process changes that projects have tried that worked or didn't work * How is functional testing evolving in each project Would this help with cross project communication? Is this feasible? Other thoughts? best, Joe [0] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-April/062361.html __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
On 5 May 2015 at 07:03, Joe Gordon joe.gord...@gmail.com wrote: Before going any further, I am proposing something to make it easier for the developer community to keep track of what other projects are working on. I am not proposing anything to directly help operators or users, that is a separate problem space. I like the thrust of your proposal. Any reason not to ask the existing newsletter to be a bit richer? Much of the same effort is required to do the existing one and the content you propose IMO. -Rob -- Robert Collins rbtcoll...@hp.com Distinguished Technologist HP Converged Cloud __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
Thanks Joe for bringing this up. I have always tried to find topics worth being covered in the weekly newsletter. I assemble that newsletter thinking of developers and operators as the main targets, I'd like both audiences to have one place to look at weekly and skim rapidly to see if they missed something interesting. Over the years I have tried to change it based on feedback I received so this conversation is great to have On 05/04/2015 12:03 PM, Joe Gordon wrote: The  big questions I would like to see answered are: * What are the big challenges each project is currently working on? * What can we learn from each other? * Where are individual projects trying to solve the same problem independently? These are all important and interesting questions. When there were fewer projects it wasn't too hard to keep things together. Nowadays there is a lot more going on and in gerrit, which requires a bit more upfront investment to be useful. To answer these questions one needs to look at a lot of sources, including: * Weekly meeting logs, or hopefully just the notes assuming we get better at taking detailed notes I counted over 80 meetings each week: if they all took excellent notes, with clear #info lines for the relevant stuff, one person would be able probably to parse them all in a couple hours every week to identify items worth reporting. My experience is that IRC meeting logs don't convey anything useful to outsiders. Pick any project log from http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ and you'll see what I mean. Even the best ones don't really mean much to those not into the project itself. I am very skeptical that we can educate all meeting participants to take notes that can be meaningful to outsiders. I am also not sure that the IRC meeting notes are the right place for this. Maybe it would make more sense to educate PTLs and liasons to nudge me with a brief email or log in some sort of notification bucket a quick snippet of text to share with the rest of the contributors. * approved specs More than the approved ones, which are easy to spot on specs.openstack.org, I think the new ones proposed are more interesting. Ideally I would find a way to publish draft specs on specs.openstack.org/drafts/ or somehow provide a way for uneducated (to gerrit) readers to more easily discover what's coming. Until a better technical solution exists, I can pull regularly from all status:open changesets from *-specs repositories and put them in a section of the weekly newsletter. * periodically talk to the PTL of each project to see if any big discussions were discussed else where I think this already happen in the xproject meeting, doesn't it? * Topics selected for discussion at summits I'm confused about this: aren't these visible already as part of the schedule? Off the top of my head here are a few topics that would make good candidates for this newsletter: * What are different projects doing with microversioned APIs, I know that at least two projects are tackling this * How has the specs process evolved in each project, we all started out from a common point but seem to have all gone in slightly different directions * What will each projects priorities be in Liberty? Do any of them overlap? * Any process changes that projects have tried that worked or didn't work * How is functional testing evolving in each project Great to have precise examples to work with. It's useful exercise to start from the end and trace back to where the answer will be. How would the answer to these question look like? Would this help with cross project communication? Is this feasible? Other thoughts? I think it would help, it is feasible. Let's keep the ideas rolling :) /stef __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
Re: [openstack-dev] [all] cross project communication: periodic developer newsletter?
On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Robert Collins robe...@robertcollins.net wrote: On 5 May 2015 at 07:03, Joe Gordon joe.gord...@gmail.com wrote: Before going any further, I am proposing something to make it easier for the developer community to keep track of what other projects are working on. I am not proposing anything to directly help operators or users, that is a separate problem space. I like the thrust of your proposal. Any reason not to ask the existing newsletter to be a bit richer? Much of the same effort is required to do the existing one and the content you propose IMO. Short answer: Maybe. To make the existing newsletter 'a bit richer' would require a fairly significant amount of additional work. Also I think sending out this more detailed newsletter on a weekly basis would be too way to frequent. Lastly, there are sections in the current newsletter that are very useful that doesn't belong in the one I am proposing; sections such as Upcoming events, Tips n' tricks, The road to Vancouver. -Rob -- Robert Collins rbtcoll...@hp.com Distinguished Technologist HP Converged Cloud __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev __ OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions) Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
