Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[John Dickinson]

On 24 Oct 2017, at 4:47, Thierry Carrez wrote:

> Colleen Murphy wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen!
>>
>> You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the
>> tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but
>> retaining them".
>>
>> I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left
>> OpenStack for their experiences on this front.
>>
>> Something along the lines of:
>>
>>     "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't
>> contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?".
>>
>> Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be
>> predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there
>> nonetheless.
>>
>> I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be
>> useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on.
>
> Kind of parallel to the polling idea:
>
> John Dickinson has some interesting scripts that he runs to detect
> deviation from a past contribution pattern (like someone who used to
> contribute a few patches per cycle but did not contribute anything over
> the past cycle, or someone who used to contribute a handful of patches
> per month who did not send a single patch over the past month). Once
> oddities in the contribution pattern are detected, he would contact the
> person to ask if anything happened or changed that made them stop
> contributing.
>
> John would probably describe it better than I did. I like that it's not
> just quantitative but more around deviation from an established
> contribution pattern, which lets him spot issues earlier.

That's a pretty good summary.

>
> Note that this sort of analysis works well when combined with personal
> outreach, which works better at project team level... If done at
> OpenStack level you would likely have more difficulty making it feel
> personal (if I end up reaching out to a Tacker dev that stopped
> contributing, it won't be as effective as if the Tacker PTL did the
> outreach). One thing we could do would be to productize those tools and
> make them available to a wider number of people.

TBH I haven't used these tools that much for a while. Between an increased an 
increased personal reach-out ("Hey, what's going on?") and obvious stuff like 
companies pulling away from OpenStack contributions, there haven't been any 
surprises. Most of the active contributors have been pretty up-front about 
their ability (or lack thereof) to contribute.

>
> -- 
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Colleen Murphy]

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Thierry Carrez 
wrote:

> Colleen Murphy wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke
> > >
> wrote:
> >
> > Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen!
> >
> > You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the
> > tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but
> > retaining them".
> >
> > I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have
> left
> > OpenStack for their experiences on this front.
> >
> > Something along the lines of:
> >
> > "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't
> > contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?".
> >
> > Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be
> > predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there
> > nonetheless.
> >
> > I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be
> > useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on.
>
> Kind of parallel to the polling idea:
>
> John Dickinson has some interesting scripts that he runs to detect
> deviation from a past contribution pattern (like someone who used to
> contribute a few patches per cycle but did not contribute anything over
> the past cycle, or someone who used to contribute a handful of patches
> per month who did not send a single patch over the past month). Once
> oddities in the contribution pattern are detected, he would contact the
> person to ask if anything happened or changed that made them stop
> contributing.
>
> John would probably describe it better than I did. I like that it's not
> just quantitative but more around deviation from an established
> contribution pattern, which lets him spot issues earlier.
>
It's great to hear that something like this already exists.

>
> Note that this sort of analysis works well when combined with personal
> outreach, which works better at project team level... If done at
> OpenStack level you would likely have more difficulty making it feel
> personal (if I end up reaching out to a Tacker dev that stopped
> contributing, it won't be as effective as if the Tacker PTL did the
> outreach).

That's a really good point, but I would counter that in certain
circumstances this might not result in the most honest answers, if for
example the reason for leaving was due to personal problems with the PTL or
someone in the team leadership.

Even with a personalized outreach approach, I think it's important that the
data be recorded centrally so it can be analyzed across the various teams
for trends.

> One thing we could do would be to productize those tools and
> make them available to a wider number of people.
>
++

>
> --
> Thierry Carrez (ttx)
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Thierry Carrez's message of 2017-10-24 13:47:32 +0200:
> Colleen Murphy wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke
> > > wrote:
> > 
> > Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen!
> > 
> > You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the
> > tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but
> > retaining them".
> > 
> > I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left
> > OpenStack for their experiences on this front.
> > 
> > Something along the lines of:
> > 
> >     "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't
> > contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?".
> > 
> > Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be
> > predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there
> > nonetheless.
> > 
> > I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be
> > useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on.
> 
> Kind of parallel to the polling idea:
> 
> John Dickinson has some interesting scripts that he runs to detect
> deviation from a past contribution pattern (like someone who used to
> contribute a few patches per cycle but did not contribute anything over
> the past cycle, or someone who used to contribute a handful of patches
> per month who did not send a single patch over the past month). Once
> oddities in the contribution pattern are detected, he would contact the
> person to ask if anything happened or changed that made them stop
> contributing.
> 
> John would probably describe it better than I did. I like that it's not
> just quantitative but more around deviation from an established
> contribution pattern, which lets him spot issues earlier.
> 
> Note that this sort of analysis works well when combined with personal
> outreach, which works better at project team level... If done at
> OpenStack level you would likely have more difficulty making it feel
> personal (if I end up reaching out to a Tacker dev that stopped
> contributing, it won't be as effective as if the Tacker PTL did the
> outreach). One thing we could do would be to productize those tools and
> make them available to a wider number of people.
> 

Yes, any tools that we can use to produce real data to inform an
outreach program would be useful.

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Thierry Carrez]

Colleen Murphy wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke
> > wrote:
> 
> Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen!
> 
> You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the
> tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but
> retaining them".
> 
> I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left
> OpenStack for their experiences on this front.
> 
> Something along the lines of:
> 
>     "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't
> contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?".
> 
> Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be
> predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there
> nonetheless.
> 
> I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be
> useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on.

Kind of parallel to the polling idea:

John Dickinson has some interesting scripts that he runs to detect
deviation from a past contribution pattern (like someone who used to
contribute a few patches per cycle but did not contribute anything over
the past cycle, or someone who used to contribute a handful of patches
per month who did not send a single patch over the past month). Once
oddities in the contribution pattern are detected, he would contact the
person to ask if anything happened or changed that made them stop
contributing.

John would probably describe it better than I did. I like that it's not
just quantitative but more around deviation from an established
contribution pattern, which lets him spot issues earlier.

Note that this sort of analysis works well when combined with personal
outreach, which works better at project team level... If done at
OpenStack level you would likely have more difficulty making it feel
personal (if I end up reaching out to a Tacker dev that stopped
contributing, it won't be as effective as if the Tacker PTL did the
outreach). One thing we could do would be to productize those tools and
make them available to a wider number of people.

-- 
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Colleen Murphy]

On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:00 AM, Diana Clarke 
wrote:

> Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen!
>
> You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the
> tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but
> retaining them".
>
> I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left
> OpenStack for their experiences on this front.
>
> Something along the lines of:
>
> "I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't
> contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?".
>
> Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be
> predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there
> nonetheless.
>
I'm not aware of such an initiative so far but I do think it would be
useful, and perhaps something we can partner with the foundation on.

Colleen

>
> Congrats again,
>
> --diana
>
> On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Colleen Murphy 
> wrote:
> > A major problem in the tech world is not just attracting underrepresented
> > contributors, but retaining them. They leave their communities or careers
> > because of bias problems. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen in
> OpenStack,
> > but just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. A long-term
> > study of participation by underrepresented demographics will help us
> answer
> > this and fix it if necessary.
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Diana Clarke]

Congrats on being elected to the TC, Colleen!

You mentioned earlier in this thread that, "a major problem in the
tech world is not just attracting underrepresented contributors, but
retaining them".

I'm curious if the TC has considered polling the people that have left
OpenStack for their experiences on this front.

Something along the lines of:

"I see you contributed 20 patches in the last cycle, but haven't
contributed recently, why did you stop contributing?".

Given the recent layoffs, I suspect many of the responses will be
predicable, but you might find some worthwhile nuggets there
nonetheless.

Congrats again,

--diana

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 3:38 AM, Colleen Murphy  wrote:
> A major problem in the tech world is not just attracting underrepresented
> contributors, but retaining them. They leave their communities or careers
> because of bias problems. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen in OpenStack,
> but just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. A long-term
> study of participation by underrepresented demographics will help us answer
> this and fix it if necessary.

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Colleen Murphy's message of 2017-10-15 11:38:47 +0200:
> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Flavio Percoco  wrote:
> 
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> > inclusiveness
> > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe
> > this is a
> > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all,
> > how you
> > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> > improve
> > first?
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Flavio
> >
> > --
> > @flaper87
> > Flavio Percoco
> >
> > First, we need more data. We need a better gender study that doesn't rely
> on first-name analysis and takes into account non-binary contributors. We
> need data on who is participating from which country (I'm reasonably sure
> this exists but I haven't found it published), what language they speak,
> whether they are participating in IRC meetings and why or why not (time
> zone problems? language barriers?). We need data on contribution by
> ethnicity.
> 
> A major problem in the tech world is not just attracting underrepresented
> contributors, but retaining them. They leave their communities or careers
> because of bias problems. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen in
> OpenStack, but just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. A
> long-term study of participation by underrepresented demographics will help
> us answer this and fix it if necessary.
> 
> We do already know that we need to attract a more diverse contributor base.
> To do that, we need to expand and support outreach programs, especially
> things like Outreachy. It might not be a bad idea to start an
> OpenStack-specific Outreachy-type thing. We need to offer more mentors to
> the program so that we can support more interns.
> 
> We need to be friendlier to new people. You might have no idea how much a
> negative interaction on your first patch or your first question in IRC can
> frame your opinion of a community. A new person can't help but wonder if
> they are being treated that way because they have a feminine IRC nick or
> because their English wasn't good. I certainly think no one here tries to
> be unfriendly but I'm sure we could all do better to keep it in mind. I
> think Feilong's point about being publicly shamed for making a language and
> culture mistake is especially unfriendly and an example of something we can
> do better at.
> 
> Thanks for the great question.
> 
> Colleen

All good points, and well said.

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Flavio Percoco]

/me waves

Thanks a bunch for replying to my email. As some of you may know, this is a
topic that is very close to me and I that I pay lots of attention to. There's
some overlap in some of your replies and I've taken notes offline so we can work
together on some of them (although I'd love to see y'all pushing your ideas
forward).

I've decided to not summarize the thread here because I would prefer to
encourage voters to read each of the replies. A summary from me would not pay
justice to the effort you've put replying to my question.

Thanks again and good luck to y'all,
Flavio

On 13/10/17 14:45 +0200, Flavio Percoco wrote:

Greetings,

Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and inclusiveness
(or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this is a
broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how you
think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve
first?

Thank you,
Flavio

--
@flaper87
Flavio Percoco




--
@flaper87
Flavio Percoco


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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Flavio Percoco]

On 15/10/17 01:26 +0100, Erno Kuvaja wrote:

What we really need to focus on is to get people _wanting_ to join us.
There is next to nothing easy in OpenStack with all it's complexity
and that's perfectly fine. Easy is not fun, we all want to challenge
ourselves. And we have amazing community to support those who wants to
join and make the difference. That is the group we need to grow and
when we run out of scalability of helping the people who really wants
to make the effort, then we should focus streamlining that process.

I'm eager to say, we're wasting our time trying to make it super
welcoming and easy just to join for everyone as long as we do not have
the queue of people who really wants to make a difference. Think about
it, feel free to tell that I'm totally wrong and just being ass by
saying this, and when you do, please explain why you think so.


I don't think you're totally wrong and I also think we might be having a problem
attracting people to the community. Nevertheless, I don't think attracting
people to the community is entirely related to being inclusive. If you do a
massive marketing campain to attract people and your community is not welcoming
(or simply ready to deal with that) then you'll end up pushing them away, hence
my question ;)

As you correctly pointed out, our community is amaizing but not perfect. We do
have some serious issues to deal with to be more inclusive. So, I think you're
onto something and your answer is valid, perhaps better in a different context.

Flavio

--
@flaper87
Flavio Percoco


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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Colleen Murphy]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Flavio Percoco  wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe
> this is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all,
> how you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> improve
> first?
>
> Thank you,
> Flavio
>
> --
> @flaper87
> Flavio Percoco
>
> First, we need more data. We need a better gender study that doesn't rely
on first-name analysis and takes into account non-binary contributors. We
need data on who is participating from which country (I'm reasonably sure
this exists but I haven't found it published), what language they speak,
whether they are participating in IRC meetings and why or why not (time
zone problems? language barriers?). We need data on contribution by
ethnicity.

A major problem in the tech world is not just attracting underrepresented
contributors, but retaining them. They leave their communities or careers
because of bias problems. To my knowledge, that doesn't happen in
OpenStack, but just because I can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. A
long-term study of participation by underrepresented demographics will help
us answer this and fix it if necessary.

We do already know that we need to attract a more diverse contributor base.
To do that, we need to expand and support outreach programs, especially
things like Outreachy. It might not be a bad idea to start an
OpenStack-specific Outreachy-type thing. We need to offer more mentors to
the program so that we can support more interns.

We need to be friendlier to new people. You might have no idea how much a
negative interaction on your first patch or your first question in IRC can
frame your opinion of a community. A new person can't help but wonder if
they are being treated that way because they have a feminine IRC nick or
because their English wasn't good. I certainly think no one here tries to
be unfriendly but I'm sure we could all do better to keep it in mind. I
think Feilong's point about being publicly shamed for making a language and
culture mistake is especially unfriendly and an example of something we can
do better at.

Thanks for the great question.

Colleen
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Erno Kuvaja]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Flavio Percoco  wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this
> is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how
> you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> improve
> first?
>
> Thank you,
> Flavio
>
> --
> @flaper87
> Flavio Percoco
>
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>

First of all, I'm not running for the position, so if this is
inappropriate clutter by your view, skip and move on. I just think
this is big enough topic to chip into the conversation and if doing so
I get some of the current and/or future
community/tc/ member thinking, I've more than
succeeded.

We've been talking about how we need to be more welcoming, inclusive,
diverse and many more terms for achieving the same goal. And me if
anyone as a one of the cores for top help wanted list project should
be there in the front line yelling that we need more hands on the
deck. Yet still I think we're trying to solve wrong problem by saying
that we need to make OpenStack as welcoming as possible for everyone.

There has been raised few issues we can all more or less stand behind,
like Doug mentioning the -1s for typos, variable name disagreements
etc. I totally disagree with his solution. We have brilliant mechanism
to tackle that already, even the gerrit web ui provides one edit
directly on the review, but it's culturally "not ok to touch someone
else's patch (as this is individual contribution, not teamwork)". We
need cultural attitude change to fix many of these issues as it's not
the best usage of our gating nor reviewing resources to have yet
another patch there in the queue to fix that typo. We likely still can
all agree that the problem exists and is super annoying for everyone,
but it's just one small thing.

Taking that further we need to stop telling new contributors to find a
typo and fix it as their first commit. We (Glance team) have even set
disallowed change as part of our contribution guide for non-user
facing typo fixes as they really don't benefit anyone but makes more
work trying to keep the review queues in check and if one needs to
figure out when (and why) some change was made, that clutter is not
helpful in something like `git blame` either. That first commit is big
thing, no doubt, and it's even bigger and more hooking thing when you
actually do something meaningful with it! I still remember my fist
commit as it was just after feature freeze, agreed as exception
because it was part of making actually possible to run Images API v2.
If that patch was comment typo fix, I probably couldn't be proudly
telling about it now years later. That single word typo fix drowns so
easily into the queue and the person proposing it has likely moved on
week ago before the review is first time even eyeballed. This is
likely one of the reasons to what Amrith said seeing, so many one
commit contributors. The statistics does not tell how long it took to
get that first commit merged (even if it was only one revision) and if
the person was any way involved anymore when it did.

Fei Long mentioned that he had work for long time to get there and it
wasn't easy. It wasn't easy for me either when I joined, but guess
what, we're both still here! And we're both still working hard to
adjust ourselves and the community to be able to work effectively
together, That happened because we were motivated to be part of the
community, not just because it was made easy for us to so.

That leads to my point here. We have amazing community, by no means
it's perfect, but nevertheless we totally suck marketing it. I know
people who likes to work with OpenStack as it's cool technology but
don't want to deal with the bollox and politics in the community. And
it's really not that bad, but when ever we talk about these things
(publicly) we send out the message that we totally suck and we're
super hostile to get anyone joining and that's most important thing we
need to work on, time after time, year after year. If I was looking
this as outsider now I likely wouldn't want to make the effort when
the community itself claims that it sucks and it can't change in past
(or future) year(s).

What we really need to focus on is to get people _wanting_ to join us.
There is next to nothing easy in OpenStack with all it's complexity
and that's perfectly fine. Easy is not fun, we all want to challenge
ourselves. And we have amazing community to support those who wants to
join and make the difference. That is the group we need to grow and
when we run out of scalability of helping the 

Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Andrea Frittoli]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:46 PM Flavio Percoco  wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe
> this is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all,
> how you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> improve
> first?
>

Hi Flavio,

I'd continue promoting asynchronous communication, office hours and a good
use
of meetbot to generate good summaries (it's true that all IRC communication
is logged,
but it can be a lot of text to go through sometimes).

I'd propose we write training material on inclusiveness to be included in
the great work
of the upstream institute. We can use this to build and maintain awareness
in the
community.

It's important we don't think that training and educations are only for
new-comers into
the community. Especially after a few years in the community one may be
tempted
to fall into routines and/or preconceptions - it's important to keep an
open mind towards
people and ideas.

One idea that has been bouncing in mind is trainings for newly elected PTLs
or TCs or
any other interested individuals. I'm thinking especially of leaders since
their words
often bear a stronger impact on the community.

Perhaps self paced trainings where we present community guiding principles,
code of
conduct and vision or dedicated sessions at the PTG.

Faithfully,

Andrea Frittoli (andreaf)


> Thank you,
> Flavio
>
> --
> @flaper87
> Flavio Percoco
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[ChangBo Guo]

 FeiLong, Thanks for raising the pain points as a non-English native
speaker. I had similar experience with you in last 5 years. Language,
timezone, culture are the common barriers for diversity and inclusiveness.
We could identify  what's
the biggest obstacles for contributors to contribute happily.  That could
be done through discussions occurred in local meetup/online meeting in
local language and bring conclusions back to the global community
discussion. record the obstacles and find the way to overcome them.  BTW, I
really like the TC office hours.





how you
think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
improve
first?




2017-10-14 3:22 GMT+08:00 feilong :

> Thanks for asking, Flavio. That's one of the topic I mentioned in my
> candidacy, that's because as a Chinese working on OpenStack in the past 6
> years, I do have some experiences about this though I agree it couldn't be
> done in 1 cycle/year. But I think it's still a domain I can contribute for
> OpenStack.
>
> I can still remember I had to join the Glance meeting at 2:00AM, and was
> challenged because of saying "Hi guys" in a public channel though "Hi guys"
> is used very common in New Zealand. Should we expect a non-English native
> speaker to understand the details between “Hi there", "Hi guys" and "Hi
> folks"? I think that's the language and culture barrier for many new
> contributors. We (Brian, Erno） even tried to propose a panel at summit to
> discuss it before. Currently, it's more important than ever to keep those
> new contributors due to the changes happening around OpenStack nowadays.
>
> On 14/10/17 01:45, Flavio Percoco wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe
> this is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all,
> how you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> improve
> first?
>
> Thank you,
> Flavio
>
> --
> @flaper87
> Flavio Percoco
>
>
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> --
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> Feilong Wang (王飞龙)
> --
> Senior Cloud Software Engineer
> Tel: +64-48032246 <+64%204-803%202246>
> Email: flw...@catalyst.net.nz
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Emilien Macchi]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Flavio Percoco  wrote:
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> inclusiveness (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I 
> believe this
> is a broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, 
> how
> you think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> improve first?

Some rough ideas, that can be discussed as a community:

- Force changes in leadership roles: I'm believe in rotations when
that makes sense. We could think at some policy to not being at TC
more than 2 cycles in a row (can re-apply after one cycle break). Same
for PTL? (not sure on this one, some projects don't have much
volunteers do run this position). But you get the idea.
(some could ask why I didn't propose that during my TC mandate, it
just popup in my mind by writing this email).

- Keep encouraging asynchronous collaboration: dropping the TC meeting
(and adding office hours) was a good example of how we can now have
TC-related discussions around the globe without having to stay until
late in the evening. I would like to encourage other projects to look
at this concept. Hopefully we can get more contributors from around
the globe and not just in US-friendly timezone.

- Ensure projects growth: the number of core reviewers for some
projects is imho alarming. Lack of reviewers? Lack of trust? Here are
some number of the Top 5 projects (# of reviews in Pike, source
stackalitics):

#1 Nova - 12 cores
#2 Infra - 13 cores (core, not root)
#3 Cinder - 15 cores
#4 Neutron - 13 cores (not counting all plugins repos, but numbers
look good, probably thanks to the stadium)
#5 TripleO - 32
(and we can continue)

What TC can do? promote more mentoring, establish healthy policies to
promote cores in projects, by defining as a community the metrics
used, etc.


Anyway, these things are (again) rough ideas, that we can be discussed
here or somewhere else but I strongly believe we need people at TC who
can, by their experience and motivation, make our community growing in
healthy and diverse ways.
-- 
Emilien Macchi

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[feilong]

Thanks for asking, Flavio. That's one of the topic I mentioned in my
candidacy, that's because as a Chinese working on OpenStack in the past
6 years, I do have some experiences about this though I agree it
couldn't be done in 1 cycle/year. But I think it's still a domain I can
contribute for OpenStack.

I can still remember I had to join the Glance meeting at 2:00AM, and was
challenged because of saying "Hi guys" in a public channel though "Hi
guys" is used very common in New Zealand. Should we expect a non-English
native speaker to understand the details between “Hi there", "Hi guys"
and "Hi folks"? I think that's the language and culture barrier for many
new contributors. We (Brian, Erno） even tried to propose a panel at
summit to discuss it before. Currently, it's more important than ever to
keep those new contributors due to the changes happening around
OpenStack nowadays.


On 14/10/17 01:45, Flavio Percoco wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe
> this is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from
> y'all, how you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> improve
> first?
>
> Thank you,
> Flavio
>
> -- 
> @flaper87
> Flavio Percoco
>
>
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--
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Tel: +64-48032246
Email: flw...@catalyst.net.nz
Catalyst IT Limited
Level 6, Catalyst House, 150 Willis Street, Wellington
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Amrith Kumar]

Thanks Doug, I didn't know what caused the "Welcome New Contributor"
thing show up in reviews, but that is exactly what I used to look for.

-amrith



On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Doug Hellmann  wrote:
> Excerpts from Amrith Kumar's message of 2017-10-13 13:32:54 -0400:
>> Flavio,
>>
>> Some months back I looked at a slide that Thierry showed at a meeting;
>> it showed contributor statistics and it showed that there were a large
>> number of contributors who made exactly 1 commit which sometimes got
>> merged, but there was a huge drop off from 1 commit to 2 commits!
>>
>> So I got to thinking about what could cause that and how one could get
>> to the second commit (once you're hooked, you are hooked!).
>>
>> To that end, I tried to give priority to first time committers; if I
>> saw a commit that said "New Contributor", I try to not only thank them
>> for it, but also be much more responsive. I hope that helped at least
>> one contributor go from 1st commit to 2nd commit.
>
> This is a great point. It's easy to find new contributors because
> we have a bot that drops a welcome message on their patch, and
> gerrit can query by reviewer:
>
> https://review.openstack.org/#/q/reviewer:%22Welcome%252C+new+contributor!%22+status:open,n,z
>
>>
>> Other than that, working (with Dims) trying to take up a number of
>> initiatives that bring new contributors to OpenStack including
>>
>> - speaking to university students (a project I proposed a while back
>> called OpenStack in the classroom[1])
>> - making presentations at Summit(s) meetups, and any other place which
>> will have us to tell people about OpenStack[2].
>> - participate (as a mentor) in the OpenStack mentorship program, the
>> Women of OpenStack program, and a myriad of other non-OpenStack
>> community development programs
>>
>> Shameless plug for Dims & my presentation at Summit in Sydney about
>> contributing to OpenStack [2].
>>
>> Thanks for the question!
>>
>> -amrith
>>
>> [1] http://openstack.markmail.org/thread/qadfotwkoj6alivj
>> [2] 
>> https://www.openstack.org/summit/sydney-2017/summit-schedule/events/19116/getting-started-with-contributing-to-openstack-dos-and-donts
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Flavio Percoco  wrote:
>> > Greetings,
>> >
>> > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
>> > inclusiveness
>> > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this
>> > is a
>> > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how
>> > you
>> > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
>> > improve
>> > first?
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> > Flavio
>> >
>> > --
>> > @flaper87
>> > Flavio Percoco
>> >
>> > __
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>> > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
>> > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
>> >
>>
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Amrith Kumar's message of 2017-10-13 13:32:54 -0400:
> Flavio,
> 
> Some months back I looked at a slide that Thierry showed at a meeting;
> it showed contributor statistics and it showed that there were a large
> number of contributors who made exactly 1 commit which sometimes got
> merged, but there was a huge drop off from 1 commit to 2 commits!
> 
> So I got to thinking about what could cause that and how one could get
> to the second commit (once you're hooked, you are hooked!).
> 
> To that end, I tried to give priority to first time committers; if I
> saw a commit that said "New Contributor", I try to not only thank them
> for it, but also be much more responsive. I hope that helped at least
> one contributor go from 1st commit to 2nd commit.

This is a great point. It's easy to find new contributors because
we have a bot that drops a welcome message on their patch, and
gerrit can query by reviewer:

https://review.openstack.org/#/q/reviewer:%22Welcome%252C+new+contributor!%22+status:open,n,z

> 
> Other than that, working (with Dims) trying to take up a number of
> initiatives that bring new contributors to OpenStack including
> 
> - speaking to university students (a project I proposed a while back
> called OpenStack in the classroom[1])
> - making presentations at Summit(s) meetups, and any other place which
> will have us to tell people about OpenStack[2].
> - participate (as a mentor) in the OpenStack mentorship program, the
> Women of OpenStack program, and a myriad of other non-OpenStack
> community development programs
> 
> Shameless plug for Dims & my presentation at Summit in Sydney about
> contributing to OpenStack [2].
> 
> Thanks for the question!
> 
> -amrith
> 
> [1] http://openstack.markmail.org/thread/qadfotwkoj6alivj
> [2] 
> https://www.openstack.org/summit/sydney-2017/summit-schedule/events/19116/getting-started-with-contributing-to-openstack-dos-and-donts
> 
> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Flavio Percoco  wrote:
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> > inclusiveness
> > (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this
> > is a
> > broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how
> > you
> > think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> > improve
> > first?
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Flavio
> >
> > --
> > @flaper87
> > Flavio Percoco
> >
> > __
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> > Unsubscribe: openstack-dev-requ...@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
> > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
> >
> 

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Amrith Kumar]

Flavio,

Some months back I looked at a slide that Thierry showed at a meeting;
it showed contributor statistics and it showed that there were a large
number of contributors who made exactly 1 commit which sometimes got
merged, but there was a huge drop off from 1 commit to 2 commits!

So I got to thinking about what could cause that and how one could get
to the second commit (once you're hooked, you are hooked!).

To that end, I tried to give priority to first time committers; if I
saw a commit that said "New Contributor", I try to not only thank them
for it, but also be much more responsive. I hope that helped at least
one contributor go from 1st commit to 2nd commit.

Other than that, working (with Dims) trying to take up a number of
initiatives that bring new contributors to OpenStack including

- speaking to university students (a project I proposed a while back
called OpenStack in the classroom[1])
- making presentations at Summit(s) meetups, and any other place which
will have us to tell people about OpenStack[2].
- participate (as a mentor) in the OpenStack mentorship program, the
Women of OpenStack program, and a myriad of other non-OpenStack
community development programs

Shameless plug for Dims & my presentation at Summit in Sydney about
contributing to OpenStack [2].

Thanks for the question!

-amrith

[1] http://openstack.markmail.org/thread/qadfotwkoj6alivj
[2] 
https://www.openstack.org/summit/sydney-2017/summit-schedule/events/19116/getting-started-with-contributing-to-openstack-dos-and-donts

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Flavio Percoco  wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this
> is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how
> you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> improve
> first?
>
> Thank you,
> Flavio
>
> --
> @flaper87
> Flavio Percoco
>
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Doug Hellmann]

Excerpts from Flavio Percoco's message of 2017-10-13 14:45:28 +0200:
> Greetings,
> 
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and 
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this 
> is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how 
> you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve
> first?
> 
> Thank you,
> Flavio
> 

If I had a magic wand, I would use it to find all of the -1 reviews
in gerrit for typos, wording clarifications, markup corrections,
variable naming disagreements, and other minor issues and turn them
into +1/+2 votes with a follow-up patch from the reviewer to fix
the problems.

I think this one small change would transform our review culture
from one of "seeking perfection in others" to "helping each other
find perfection together", and the result would make us more welcoming
to contributors of all types.

Doug

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Graham Hayes]

On 13/10/17 13:45, Flavio Percoco wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe
> this is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all,
> how you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> improve
> first?
> 
> Thank you,
> Flavio
> 
> -- 
> @flaper87
> Flavio Percoco
> 

Honestly, short of the the (already in progress) work to help new
contributors getting on board I do not know what the best way is.

But - that is down to me matching the "stereotypical" software engineer
image people have - I did not have to work as hard to become part of the
community as the people we are trying to encourage to join us will have
to, and have had to already to get to a point where they want to join
us.

So - how could we make our community more inclusive?

Ask, and listen to the problems people joining us in the past have had.
Then use that information to find a solution.
Iterate, find the next problem.
Try to solve it.
Repeat.
Profit?

OK ^ is a bit glib. But, this is not something we are going to solve in
a cycle, or even a year - it will be a long term project, and someone
like me, speaking from a position of privilege, about how to fix it is
*not* how we should try to improve our situation.

> 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Paul Belanger]

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 02:45:28PM +0200, Flavio Percoco wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and 
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this 
> is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how 
> you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve
> first?
> 
> Thank you,
> Flavio
> 
I admit, I didn't include this topic in my email. And I'll be the first to say
inclusiveness is an import and healthy issue to have for any project / society.

Listening, and learning, what makes people comfortable to engage and contribute
would be on my list. This applied both to any project and persons.  I'd learn
how other projects are responding to the topic and possible engage with those
leaders to share successes.

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Julia Kreger]

Greetings Flavio,

My perception is that if we need to encourage the spreading of task, roles,
responsibility amongst many. In other words, encourage building trust.
Building trust should hopefully foster a personal sense of investment
and responsibility, hopefully resulting in further diversity as time goes by
improving contributor retention.

That being said, I think step zero would be an assessment of what data is
available and the identification of what is missing from the puzzle.

-Julia

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Flavio Percoco  wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this
> is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how
> you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you
> improve
> first?

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Re: [openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Ildiko Vancsa]

Hi Flavio,

I would like to refer to another thread about areas the TC should be more 
active in raised by Ed Leafe where trust and mentorship were brought up by a 
few of us.

I think one of the key factors of being open and inclusive is to help and 
mentor new contributors/community members regardless where and who they are.

To mention examples, we have several places around the globe with time zones we 
didn’t necessarily keep in mind in the past or areas where language barriers 
are higher. I think we need to spend time on understanding what the barriers 
might be that keep people back from actively participating in the community 
while we are thinking about actions.

Seeing the activity on the #openstack-tc channel I think that’s a great example 
of how to involve and engage more people in the different discussions by 
removing the dedicated meeting slot and switch to office hours and providing a 
forum where TC members are available to everyone.

We have a new proposal to create a SIG called (something like) 'First Contact 
SIG’. I hope discussions on diversity and inclusiveness will come up there with 
the people who are passionate about on-boarding. As joining an open environment 
can be challenging and intimidating having people who are eager to help visible 
and accessible is crucial.

To the margin, I think on the technology side we are progressing well, so I 
would not reflect on that in this thread.

Thanks and Best Regards,
Ildikó


> On 2017. Oct 13., at 14:45, Flavio Percoco  wrote:
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and 
> inclusiveness
> (or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this 
> is a
> broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how 
> you
> think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve
> first?
> 
> Thank you,
> Flavio
> 
> --
> @flaper87
> Flavio Percoco
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[openstack-dev] [tc][election] Question for candidates: How do you think we can make our community more inclusive?

[Flavio Percoco]

Greetings,

Some of you, TC candidates, expressed concerns about diversity and inclusiveness
(or inclusivity, depending on your taste) in your candidacy. I believe this is a
broad, and some times ill-used, topic so, I'd like to know, from y'all, how you
think we could make our community more inclusive. What areas would you improve
first?

Thank you,
Flavio

--
@flaper87
Flavio Percoco


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