Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
PiP: Parity is Pain. Cary Millsap wrote: Here's the sequence of steps I've seen... 1. The salesman who bids RAID5 configuration wins the business, as per Dennis's story. He or she wins because the configuration requires fewer disks than the alternative RAID10 configuration. The salesman gets a nice commission and goes to his company's sales club. 2. Since the system was "sized" for storage capacity (byte counting) instead of I/O rate capacity (I/O-per-second counting), the system runs the risk of failing to keep up with I/O throughput requirements. Especially because RAID5 configurations perform more I/O operations than you think for every Oracle block written by DBWR. 3. If the system has a high enough I/O rate, the company that bought the RAID5 configuration finds out the hard way that the I/O subsystem is severely undersized. The total price of the corrected configuration is more than if the company had bought the RAID10 configuration to begin with. It's a hard deal. BAARF. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count "user commits" from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. RANT As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase "honest RAID salesman". The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound "nucular". /RANT On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked "why are you going with the more expensive vendor"? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is "okay how much faster?" I mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she says maybe at the low level there is a
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Putting on my futuristic thinking hat, I see a day not too far off when there won't be any Ds. RAID, as we know it, will go away. Jerry Whittle ASIFICS DBA NCI Information Systems Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 618-622-4145 -Original Message- Daniel W. Fink wrote: Mogens, As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently production ready, configurations listed below. RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of Free/Four/Five. Dan
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I had in mind. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Mladen - Thanks for the clarification. Gee, does this mean no book? Well, maybe the movie would be some compensation. Cary - Thanks always for your willingness to share your knowledge. Looking forward to your book. Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count user commits from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. RANT As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase honest RAID salesman. The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound nucular. /RANT On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked why are you going with the more expensive vendor? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is okay how much faster? I mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks What does Oracle recommend?. And on it goes. Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I, a lowly DBA, prove which is faster? Should I talk my system administrator into going to the trouble of configuring a system both ways and run some tests? What type of tests would be most useful? If I choose the wrong test, and RAID5 looks just as good as RAID1+0, I'm sunk. Then for years to come when I try to make a point at a meeting someone will say yeah, is this another RAID1+0 theory? Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Mladen - Thanks for the clarification. Gee, does this mean no book? Well, maybe the movie would be some compensation. Cary - Thanks always for your willingness to share your knowledge. Looking forward to your book. Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count user commits from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. RANT As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase honest RAID salesman. The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound nucular. /RANT On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked why are you going with the more expensive vendor? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is okay how much faster? I mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks What does Oracle recommend?. And on it goes. Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I, a lowly DBA, prove which is faster? Should I talk my system administrator into going to the trouble of configuring a system both ways and run some tests? What type of tests would be most useful? If I choose the wrong test, and RAID5 looks just as good as RAID1+0, I'm sunk. Then for years to come when I try to make a point at a meeting someone will say yeah, is this another RAID1+0 theory? Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Well, the way memory is growing, we'll soon have in-memory databases which will bring the ultimate victory to Cary by rendering the phrase "hit ratio" meaningless. How's that for futuristic thinking? To go even further, there might even come the day when thatmonstercreated by IBM, the PC itself will become obsolete and everything will work of a small device, callit "network computer" which will run applications from your "application service provider". Am I a genuine futurist thinker or what? Don't tell Larry that I've stolen some of his ideas. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message-From: Whittle Jerome Contr NCI [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:50 AMTo: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-LSubject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Putting on my futuristic thinking hat, I see a day not too far off when there won't be any Ds. RAID, as we know it, will go away. Jerry Whittle ASIFICS DBA NCI Information Systems Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 618-622-4145 -Original Message- Daniel W. Fink wrote: Mogens, As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently production ready, configurations listed below. RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of Free/Four/Five. Dan
RE: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
- --- Original Message --- - From: Gogala, Mladen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:44:18 A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I had in mind. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] When Larry met Carly ? Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Soon? Soon?! What's this Soon stuff? SQL show sga Total System Global Area 2.3205E+10 bytes Fixed Size 735296 bytes Variable Size1728053248 bytes Database Buffers 2.1475E+10 bytes Redo Buffers1335296 bytes A real pig of an app, but good BCHR. -Original Message- Well, the way memory is growing, we'll soon have in-memory databases -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephen Lee INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
You forgot Traci Lords. -Original Message- A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I had in mind. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephen Lee INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
If you really want to free your mind, think of this. What if all this is simply an illusion? We're stuck in the Matrix and if only we could free ourselves from the tyranny of the machines (i.e. the evil RAID salesfolk et al) we could liberate humanity and all our Oracle databases so that everyone and everything lives in peace and harmony? Which pill do you choose: red or blue? OK...so I saw Matrix Reloaded over the weekend Free your mind! BAARF forever! Karen Well, the way memory is growing, we'll soon have in-memory databases which will bring the ultimate victory to Cary by rendering the phrase hit ratio meaningless. How's that for futuristic thinking? To go even further, there might even come the day when that monster created by IBM, the PC itself will become obsolete and everything will work of a small device, call it network computer which will run applications from your application service provider. Am I a genuine futurist thinker or what? Don't tell Larry that I've stolen some of his ideas. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:50 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Putting on my futuristic thinking hat, I see a day not too far off when there won't be any Ds. RAID, as we know it, will go away. Jerry Whittle ASIFICS DBA NCI Information Systems Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 618-622-4145 -Original Message- Daniel W. Fink wrote: Mogens, As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently production ready, configurations listed below. RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of Free/Four/Five. Dan -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Karen Morton INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
When Larry met Carly? I don't know whether Carly is his type, but that would be some marriage! I can still remember the fiery relationship with Sandra Kurtzig, the former CEO of Ingres. Having in mind that HP is a great printer company, according to Larry, I doubt that the relationship would work. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L - --- Original Message --- - From: Gogala, Mladen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:44:18 A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I had in mind. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] When Larry met Carly ? Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Okay, there's a variety of inaccuracies here. 1) The (full cache), which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only - not true. In fact, just about every storage system today has some sort of protected write-back cache. This is true of hitachi, clariion, symmetrix, netapp, etc. EMC's implementation is a little different than some vendors' because it uses a lot of algorithms to determine where memory pressure exists within the cache and tweaks it accordingly. This can result in both better and worse performance under certain situations - your milage definitely varies in this case. 2) These(write-back cache types) of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S - I can't speak for what vendors say when they mean RAID-6, but RAID-S has nothing to do with cache strategies. RAID-S is a raid variant that is specific to EMC's strategy on disk layout. Basically, on a normal Symmetrix, you take a physical disk spindle: |---| and split it up into one or more splits: ||||| and then you protect splits through mirroring them to splits on other disks, etc. With RAID-S you take 4 disks - its always 4 disks, you have no choice in the matter, and split them identically. You then take each positional split across all 4 disks, and one disk of splits becomes the parity and the rest become logical volumes. Sooo, it ends up looking like this: |--P1--|--P2--|--P3--|--P4--| |--D1--|--D4--|--D7--|--D10--| |--D2--|--D5--|--D8--|--D11--| |--D3--|--D6--|--D9--|--D12--| each one of these D-volumes becomes one logical volume that's exposed to the host, so you end up with 12 data volumes exposed to the host. So, its sort of an odd raid-4-ish - there's no striping per se - each split of the disks becomes a logical volume exposed to the host. When a write occurs to D2, let's say, the accompanying data block from D3 and D1 is fetched, and the XOR'ed parity result written to the P1 split. Horrifying? Yes, a little bit - but on non-cache-hungry workloads, it stands up pretty well even on older symmetrixes. On the new Symms, the claim is that RAID-S is just as fast as RAID-1 on everything but the most strenuous workloads - YMMV. There's also RAID-P, which is the exact same critter, only with 8 disks instead of 4. This actually brings up a worthwhile note - on any large-scale array that has intelligence in the caching and data management, you have to be very careful as to how you lay your storage out. Poor choice in software stripe size, volume layout, etc. can completely destroy the performance of an array. This can often explain why some people love large-scale array X while others decry its performance. Workload and design, workload and design. Also, the non-volatile cache generally means battery-backed, which while almost as good as true non-volatile RAM, is not the same thing. Batteries die, power supplies get overstressed, and generally terrible things can happen to your storage arrays, and loss-of-power to the cache = loss of data in write-back environments. Thanks, Matt -- Matthew Zito GridApp Systems Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 646-220-3551 Phone: 212-358-8211 x 359 http://www.gridapp.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mladen Gogala Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count user commits from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. RANT As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover
RE: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
That was McNealy that said HP was a great little printer company, wasn't it? Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Gogala, Mladen Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:10 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L When Larry met Carly? I don't know whether Carly is his type, but that would be some marriage! I can still remember the fiery relationship with Sandra Kurtzig, the former CEO of Ingres. Having in mind that HP is a great printer company, according to Larry, I doubt that the relationship would work. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L - --- Original Message --- - From: Gogala, Mladen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:44:18 A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I had in mind. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] When Larry met Carly ? Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
I'm not sure. You may be right. I thought that it was Larry Ellison, but then again, it's Monday and my memory is probably failing me. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 4:25 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L That was McNealy that said HP was a great little printer company, wasn't it? Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Gogala, Mladen Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:10 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L When Larry met Carly? I don't know whether Carly is his type, but that would be some marriage! I can still remember the fiery relationship with Sandra Kurtzig, the former CEO of Ingres. Having in mind that HP is a great printer company, according to Larry, I doubt that the relationship would work. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:54 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L - --- Original Message --- - From: Gogala, Mladen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 06:44:18 A movie with Julia Roberts or Meg Ryan is what I had in mind. Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA Phone:(203) 459-6855 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] When Larry met Carly ? Regards, Stephane Faroult Oriole -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Stephane Faroult INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Gogala, Mladen INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the RD costs of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Niall Litchfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Which begs the question: What is RAID-5 microkernel? Jared On Sunday 15 June 2003 00:49, Mladen Gogala wrote: RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the RD costs of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Niall Litchfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked why are you going with the more expensive vendor? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is okay how much faster? I mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks What does Oracle recommend?. And on it goes. Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I, a lowly DBA, prove which is faster? Should I talk my system administrator into going to the trouble of configuring a system both ways and run some tests? What type of tests would be most useful? If I choose the wrong test, and RAID5 looks just as good as RAID1+0, I'm sunk. Then for years to come when I try to make a point at a meeting someone will say yeah, is this another RAID1+0 theory? Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the RD costs of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Niall Litchfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count user commits from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. RANT As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase honest RAID salesman. The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound nucular. /RANT On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked why are you going with the more expensive vendor? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is okay how much faster? I mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks What does Oracle recommend?. And on it goes. Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I, a lowly DBA, prove which is faster? Should I talk my system administrator into going to the trouble of configuring a system both ways and run some tests? What type of tests would be most useful? If I choose the wrong test, and RAID5 looks just as good as RAID1+0, I'm sunk. Then for years to come when I try to make a point at a meeting someone will say yeah, is this another RAID1+0 theory? Dennis Williams DBA, 80%OCP, 100% DBA Lifetouch, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the RD costs of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Here's the sequence of steps I've seen... 1. The salesman who bids RAID5 configuration wins the business, as per Dennis's story. He or she wins because the configuration requires fewer disks than the alternative RAID10 configuration. The salesman gets a nice commission and goes to his company's sales club. 2. Since the system was sized for storage capacity (byte counting) instead of I/O rate capacity (I/O-per-second counting), the system runs the risk of failing to keep up with I/O throughput requirements. Especially because RAID5 configurations perform more I/O operations than you think for every Oracle block written by DBWR. 3. If the system has a high enough I/O rate, the company that bought the RAID5 configuration finds out the hard way that the I/O subsystem is severely undersized. The total price of the corrected configuration is more than if the company had bought the RAID10 configuration to begin with. It's a hard deal. BAARF. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:24 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Dennis, to tell the truth, writing in oracle is not a big problem, as long as the redo files are not on RAID-5. Everything else can reside on RAID-5 without a visible performance impact. Second, RAID-5 vendors like EMC and Hitachi usually offer two versions of non-volatile cache: write-through one which essentially performs prefetch and a genuine full cache which caches both read and write calls. The latter type of cache, which is very expensive, is found on Symmetrix boxes only and not on former DG-Clariion boxes (talking EMC here). These types of RAID-5 implementation are usually referred to as RAID-6 or RAID-S. How to benchmark those? Well, the trick in benchmarking those systems is to do what one would never do with it's own system: put redo logs on RAID-5(6,S?), launch several threads of update intensive short transactions (OLTP mix) and count user commits from v$sysstat. Prior to that, establish a baseline with RAID 1+0 and see what is the difference. See how many commits would RAID-5 box record during the same time as RAID-1+0 box and you'll know the difference in speed. Also, make sure to pull out one of the disks while system is working and see what's the impact of resilvering. RANT As for the entertainment value, I would hope that Julia Roberts and Mel Gibson would consider making a movie about the RAID-5 conspiracy. Julia would be a DBA trying to purchase a RAID box and Mel Gibson would be a honest RAID-5 salesman which would uncover a nasty EMC, IBM and Hitachi conspiracy. You can tell that it is a fiction because of the phrase honest RAID salesman. The only problem would be to teach the two of them how not to sound nucular. /RANT On 2003.06.15 14:14, DENNIS WILLIAMS wrote: Mladen - I would propose another theory. Please consider this rant for entertainment value, and hopefully to consider a book on this topic. Usually companies request bids from several vendors. If you as a storage salesperson always bid RAID1+0, you will always be underbid by your competitors, receive no commissions, and in the end be fired. If you always bid RAID5, you will probably receive some business, some commissions, and keep your job. Now, pretend I'm a storage system salesperson. Which system am I going to specify to the customer? Now, if the customer insists on purchasing RAID1+0 or whatever, I'll probably argue a little because I've been stung before where I was suckered into bidding RAID1+0 and then my ignoramus competitor just blindly quoted RAID5 and when it bubbled up to the V.P. he asked why are you going with the more expensive vendor? And trying to quote a salesperson isn't a good move at that point. I thought Rachel had a good point on this topic awhile back. If you are a top-notch consultant that is often called in to solve performance problems, you have often cured them by switching from RAID5. So you have a lot of confidence in it. But if you are the lowly on-site DBA just trying to hang onto your job in the political turbulence, you usually don't have enough facts to challenge the system administrators who trust their storage vendors a lot more than a DBA that couldn't actually configure a storage system to save his or her life. So suppose I do try to challenge the system administrators. I say that RAID1+0 will write faster than RAID5. The reply is okay how much faster? I mumble that I've never seen any actual figures published anywhere. He or she says maybe at the low level there is a slight advantage to RAID1+0, but with a gig of battery-backed cache that won't be true. Or he or she asks What does Oracle recommend?. And on it goes. Okay, I'm being provocative here. But how do I,
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
It's the whole operating system that comes with a cached RAID5 system that enables it to do the parity calculations, operation under partial outage conditions, and take care of all the other hardware weirdnesses that RAID5 software has to handle. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Jared Still Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 12:55 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Which begs the question: What is RAID-5 microkernel? Jared On Sunday 15 June 2003 00:49, Mladen Gogala wrote: RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the RD costs of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Niall Litchfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
For complete disclosure, I didn't do the counting myself. The information came to me from an Oracle kernel developer during a discussion in his office at Redwood Shores. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Mladen Gogala Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L RAID-5 microkernel has more lines of code then Oracle7? Wow! This is an astonishing piece of information and if it wasn't coming from you, I'd dismiss it as yet another conspiracy theory. On 2003.06.15 01:44, Cary Millsap wrote: Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the RD costs of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Niall Litchfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Mladen Gogala Oracle DBA -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Mladen Gogala INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dan, Excellent idea. We will of course put your comment into the official BAARF paper version 2 (which I think I can have ready in about 42 seconds from now) as an important (and so far the only) footnote. What I like about your idea is that it got me wondering if the future has already started? I mean, I have seen RAID-40 sold (albeit under the name RAID-50), and I have seen RAID-50 sold (albeit under names like Disaster Recovery Site), and such. It must be a challenge to sell a huge RAID-4 SAN... and then mirror it. Respect! It might also be possible to create a new BAARF logo (the old one is kind of outdated and people are getting tired of looking at it now after several days of availability on the open market) where it ends with a sentence like .And all the powers that be.. I have actually just added your comment in the BAARF vers 2.doc and .htm documents. Should be available on the Internet RSN. Thanks for your idea. Best regards, Mogens Daniel W. Fink wrote: Mogens, As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently production ready, configurations listed below. RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of Free/Four/Five. Dan -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. ...Because if they don't sell RAID5, they don't recover the RD costs of creating a RAID5 microkernel that has more lines of code than the Oracle7 executable. I'm not kidding. Cary Millsap Hotsos Enterprises, Ltd. http://www.hotsos.com Upcoming events: - Hotsos Clinic 101 in Dallas, Washington, Denver, Sydney - Hotsos Symposium 2004, March 7-10 Dallas - Visit www.hotsos.com for schedule details... -Original Message- Niall Litchfield Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:05 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Cary Millsap INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Hey its always nice to put faces to the names. Now I know how 1 List member looks like. :-) Regards Naveen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 12:20 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Here are pics if interested. http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they may be afraid of being accused of overselling when PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could have been RAID 5's for less money. Jared Niall Litchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2003 10:04 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). DISCLAIMER: This message (including attachment if any) is confidential and may be privileged. Before opening attachments please check them for viruses and defects. MindTree Consulting Private Limited (MindTree) will not be responsible for any viruses or defects or any forwarded attachments emanating either from within MindTree or outside. If you have received this message by mistake please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this message from your system. Any unauthorized use or dissemination of this message in whole or in part is strictly prohibited. Please note that e-mails are susceptible to change and MindTree shall not be liable for any improper, untimely or incomplete transmission. -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Naveen Nahata INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dear Paul, Welcome to the Party! You have just become member (and a Bold Member as it were) no 24 (that's 42 backwards). Thanks. EiE (Enough is Enough). Mogens Paul Baumgartel wrote: Dear Mogens, When I arrived at my new job, I found RAID 5 everywhere, and a sys admin who wanted to build my new database servers that way...I smote the old systems and set the new ones on the right path. I would be proud to be associated with your movement. --- Mogens_Nrgaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
You have just become member # 26 in the BAARF Party. You have been raised to Bold Member status. You seem to both deserver it and need it :-))) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our storage team won't even respond to me anymore when I ask for the manufacturer's rating for non-cached I/Os per second number of controllers, RAID level, striping, etc... All I get is 'why do you want to know that' and 'what application is this for'... BARRF will stop the debilitating headaches since I will just refuse to talk about it anymore. Happy Day!! Mogens Nørgaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] T To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: bcc: Subject: World 06/10/03 06:19 PMpremier performance of the BAARF party logo Please respond to ORACLE-L Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Mogens, As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently production ready, configurations listed below. RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of Free/Four/Five. Dan -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Daniel W. Fink INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Nice going there Dan, After reading this 'Free/Four/Five ...' stuff only thing that comes to my mind is ... 'What the F..ive'? or maybe someone can be insulted by calling them 'you-raid-five-loving-zealot' ... TGIF Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- From: Daniel W. Fink [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 9:49 AM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Mogens, As a futuristic thinker, I challenge you to go beyond todays technology and consider what the next millenium may bring. While it is all good and well to be against RAID-Free/Four/Five, we should also issue a policy statement against the newer, though not currently production ready, configurations listed below. RAID-Firteen/Fourteen/Fifteen, Free hundred through Five hundred ninety nine (inclusive), Free thousand through Five thousand nine hundred ninety nine (inclusive) and all RAIDS that are powers of Free/Four/Five. Dan *This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.*1
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dear Mogens, When I arrived at my new job, I found RAID 5 everywhere, and a sys admin who wanted to build my new database servers that way...I smote the old systems and set the new ones on the right path. I would be proud to be associated with your movement. --- Mogens_Nørgaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Paul Baumgartel INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Here are pics if interested. http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they may be afraid of being accused of overselling when PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could have been RAID 5's for less money. Jared Niall Litchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2003 10:04 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo So, this is how Jared looks ... cool ... someone likes hot wheels ... update permanent_memory set person_face=following_link where person='Jared' / commit / Raj Rajendra dot Jamadagni at nospamespn dot com All Views expressed in this email are strictly personal. QOTD: Any clod can have facts, having an opinion is an art ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Here are pics if interested. http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they may be afraid of being accused of overselling when PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could have been RAID 5's for less money. This e-mail message is confidential, intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not the named recipient(s), please immediately notify corporate MIS at (860) 766-2000 and delete this e-mail message from your computer, Thank you.*2
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Boy I lost this battle here. The thing was the salesmonger insisted that with all the caching and multipathing the Hitachi 9200 offered that we needent worry about putting our production, development, admininstrative, and designer databases all on a single (5 disk)RAID 5 array. We then had a conference call with myself, our top IT folks, the sales monger and a Hitachi engineer. I was very prepared going in, but figured the engineer would still be able to out "tech" me. 10 minutes later I was surprised to hear that the engineer agreed with me, that we would get much better performance Striping and Mirroring. My celebration was short lived when my manager declaredthat while were going to spend 70K on Hardware, we would not be spending 77K to get the disk configuration I proposed. He was essentially selling the sales mongers point of view rather than mine and the Hitachi engineer. He claimed we would never make I/O the bottleneck on this system. It didn't take me long to discover some processes were indeed bottle necking on disk I/O. Go figure all the I/O for the whole system on a single physical device(array). That said I JUST recently discovered that our multipathing software(vendor installed-- not Hitachi) wasn't installed properly, so we really are only using one pathway for all our I/O. Once we get that installed I am actually afraid I will be pleasantly surprised at how well it works. I will just have to be content knowingas good as it isit could be better yet. Steve McClure
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
My celebration was short lived when my manager declared that while were going to spend 70K on Hardware, we would not be spending 77K to get the disk configuration I proposed. Does anybody know where that term damagement came from :) Steve McClure [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] t.com cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo [EMAIL PROTECTED] .com 06/12/2003 04:41 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L Boy I lost this battle here. The thing was the salesmonger insisted that with all the caching and multipathing the Hitachi 9200 offered that we needent worry about putting our production, development, admininstrative, and designer databases all on a single (5 disk)RAID 5 array. We then had a conference call with myself, our top IT folks, the sales monger and a Hitachi engineer. I was very prepared going in, but figured the engineer would still be able to out tech me. 10 minutes later I was surprised to hear that the engineer agreed with me, that we would get much better performance Striping and Mirroring. My celebration was short lived when my manager declared that while were going to spend 70K on Hardware, we would not be spending 77K to get the disk configuration I proposed. He was essentially selling the sales mongers point of view rather than mine and the Hitachi engineer. He claimed we would never make I/O the bottleneck on this system. It didn't take me long to discover some processes were indeed bottle necking on disk I/O. Go figure all the I/O for the whole system on a single physical device(array). That said I JUST recently discovered that our multipathing software(vendor installed-- not Hitachi) wasn't installed properly, so we really are only using one pathway for all our I/O. Once we get that installed I am actually afraid I will be pleasantly surprised at how well it works. I will just have to be content knowingas good as it isit could be better yet. Steve McClure -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Michael Boligan INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Jared wrote Here are pics if interested. http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg Now that's a igood/i hat. I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they may be afraid of being accused of overselling when PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could have been RAID 5's for less money. I think Steve has the correct response to us here, why sell 20 extra disks, when you can sell 6 controllers, 2gb cache, auto-balancing blah-di-blah software, 1000 biblio-bit fibre, installation consultancy and a partridge in a pear tree (oops maybe not the last one). Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Title: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Hey, Who cares about that RAID thing. Whose the cutie in the pictures - hehe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Here are pics if interested. http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they may be afraid of being accused of overselling when PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could have been RAID 5's for less money. Jared Niall Litchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2003 10:04 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California -- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
And the satanic redeye is a nice effect for a dba. Could this be the start of oracle pr0n? -Original Message- To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent: 6/12/03 6:19 PM Hey, Who cares about that RAID thing. Whose the cutie in the pictures - hehe. -Original Message- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 2:50 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Here are pics if interested. http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_1.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg http://www.cybcon.com/~jkstill/no_raid_5/no_raid5_2.jpg I too do not understand why vendors push RAID 5 when RAID 10 is clearly more profitable. I speculate that they may be afraid of being accused of overselling when PHB's discover the RAID 10's they just purchased could have been RAID 5's for less money. Jared Niall Litchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/12/2003 10:04 AM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Jared writes At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) I'm curious now. Pictures required. Meanwhile I have never understood why storage vendors would prefer selling RAID5 over RAID10. More disks=more profit surely? Also 10 5 therefore self evidently twice as good for all applications. Meanwhile we have this strange situation where performance consultants are publicising the fact that you have less need for performance consultants with RAID10 than with RAID5. Niall -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Niall Litchfield INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Our storage team won't even respond to me anymore when I ask for the manufacturer's rating for non-cached I/Os per second number of controllers, RAID level, striping, etc... All I get is 'why do you want to know that' and 'what application is this for'... BARRF will stop the debilitating headaches since I will just refuse to talk about it anymore. Happy Day!! Mogens Nørgaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] T To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: bcc: Subject: World 06/10/03 06:19 PMpremier performance of the BAARF party logo Please respond to ORACLE-L Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
RE: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
I quit talking about RAID over a year ago. I just put the data on the disks the Unix folks present to the server. If there are performance problems that we can identify to the storage system then we pass them along for an explanation. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 5:25 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Our storage team won't even respond to me anymore when I ask for the manufacturer's rating for non-cached I/Os per second number of controllers, RAID level, striping, etc... All I get is 'why do you want to know that' and 'what application is this for'... BARRF will stop the debilitating headaches since I will just refuse to talk about it anymore. Happy Day!! Mogens Nørgaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] T To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: bcc: Subject: World 06/10/03 06:19 PMpremier performance of the BAARF party logo Please respond to ORACLE-L Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Goulet, Dick INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
I guess I should count myself very fortunate. The folks here ask me about storage requirements, and listen. I get invited to meetings with our storage vendor and get to tell them what I want. At the meeting last week I wore my 'No RAID 5' hat. Those of you at IOUG 99 in Denver may have seen it, I wore it every day there. ;) Jared On Wednesday 11 June 2003 14:50, Goulet, Dick wrote: I quit talking about RAID over a year ago. I just put the data on the disks the Unix folks present to the server. If there are performance problems that we can identify to the storage system then we pass them along for an explanation. Dick Goulet Senior Oracle DBA Oracle Certified 8i DBA -Original Message- Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 5:25 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Our storage team won't even respond to me anymore when I ask for the manufacturer's rating for non-cached I/Os per second number of controllers, RAID level, striping, etc... All I get is 'why do you want to know that' and 'what application is this for'... BARRF will stop the debilitating headaches since I will just refuse to talk about it anymore. Happy Day!! Mogens Nørgaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] T To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]cc: bcc: Subject: World 06/10/03 06:19 PMpremier performance of the BAARF party logo Please respond to ORACLE-L Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Jared Still INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
FYI: The BAARF gif is now the background on my desktop at work. Goes well with the hat. ;) Jared Mogens Nørgaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/10/2003 03:19 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mogens_N=F8rgaard?= INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Do NOT believe the liars and infidels. We have no BAARF in our computer room, nor will we allow an invasion of BAARF. The BAARF party will have its own equivalent of the Iraqi Information Minister to deliver key notes at their conventions --bb --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: The BAARF gif is now the background on my desktop at work. Goes well with the hat. ;) Jared Mogens Nørgaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/10/2003 03:19 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.net -- Author: Barbara Baker INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services-- 858-538-5051 http://www.fatcity.com San Diego, California-- Mailing list and web hosting services - To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
Re: World premier performance of the BAARF party logo
Dear Barbare, You have just been made a Bold Member of the Party. Your Party number is 20. Mogens Barbara Baker wrote: Do NOT believe the liars and infidels. We have no BAARF in our computer room, nor will we allow an invasion of BAARF. "The BAARF party will have its own equivalent of the Iraqi Information Minister to deliver key notes at their conventions" --bb --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI: The BAARF gif is now the background on my desktop at work. Goes well with the hat. ;) Jared Mogens Nrgaard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 06/10/2003 03:19 PM Please respond to ORACLE-L To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject:World premier performance of the BAARF party logo Friends, James Morle has done it again. Nobody does it better. For the first public showing of his BAARF animation, please GoTo www.MiracleAS.dk . Then get back to your work or mailing list fast :-). Let me know if you want to become a BAARF party member, and I'll assign you a BAARF party membership number right away. You can reach Bold Membership Status if you can argue that you've been fighting RAID-F for a long time, a medium time, a short time or an extremely short time. Best regards, Mogens -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com
