Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Laura R]

On Aug 31, 2017, at 11:23 PM, Lisa Corfman  wrote:

> My question is, can I teach origami and whose models can I teach? 
> 
> Lisa

Because Lisa’s question went further into the copyright issue, I thought I 
should post this information here: 

I just found an online course that seems very interesting. I haven’t taken the 
course yet but I’m planning to. 

It is free (there is an upgrade too), lasts four weeks, 3 hours per week. 

Exploring Copyright: History, Culture, Industry
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/exploring-copyright?lr=10


Laura Rozenberg

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Dennis Walker]

Tiong Boon wrote:-
>>As a practical measure, I suggest that creators who want permission to be 
>>sought include in their books how they can be contacted.  This would avoid 
>>the need for people to write to the Origami list for information on how to 
>>contact a certain creator, as we see every now and then.

It was this sort of thinking that lead me to modify the origami database to 
allow creators to register and set copyright on their models (collectively and 
individually). An example can be found in my own model here:-  
http://www.oriwiki.com/showModel.php?ModelID=42010

At least it's a start! (And, yes, there are a few issues with image sizes)

For more info on what the database can do now, see 
http://www.oriwiki.com/odbInfo.php and http://www.oriwiki.com/odbHowTo.php

Dennis

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Tiongboon Pek]

Ilan Garibi said among other things ...

"law, as well as customs that spread in a community should make sense, and
be of use. "

One other issue that should be factored in is practicality.  Two points
have been raised in the recent discussions: one is respecting the creator's
efforts, and the other (not loudly mentioned) is financial.  The first
issue can be addressed by making sure that the model is correctly
attributed to the creator.  I am often at a loss how to reach the creator,
so a simpler and more practical approach would facilitate sharing of
origami.  As regards payment, again I would advocate a more practical
approach.  If I am folding someone's work for an advertising campaign, then
I should ask for permission and pay the creator.  But if I am receiving a
few tens or even hundreds of dollars, tracking down and paying the creator
her share is quite daunting.

As a practical measure, I suggest that creators who want permission to be
sought include in their books how they can be contacted.  This would avoid
the need for people to write to the Origami list for information on how to
contact a certain creator, as we see every now and then.

Tiong Boon

Re: [Origami] Permission question (Dick and Serena LaVine)

[leslie cefali]

> On Sep 11, 2017, at 9:45 AM, Galen Pickett  wrote:
> 
> And, FYI, the authors release their copyrights to the publishers as a
> condition of publication..

This depends on the publisher and the contract between author and publisher.
I was able to keep copyrights to a book I wrote several years ago after 
negotiating with the publisher. Sometimes the copyright doesn't go to author 
right away, but after a couple years or after it does out of print...or 
sometimes they do get to keep it upon publication.

It all depends on how it is worked out.  

Re: [Origami] Permission question (Dick and Serena LaVine)

[Galen Pickett]

...below quote as per list rules.

With best wishes,

Galen T. Pickett

https://www.etsy.com/shop/GeometricOrigami


Now, time for a little rant.  I routinely use data and whole papers from my
colleagues while teaching genetics and developmental biology.  On the few
occasions when I’ve informed my colleagues that I was using their work in a
classroom setting, they’ve been utterly delighted that their work was
worthy of being spread in such a fashion. None would have dreamed of having
their permission sought for such a purpose.

Now the work I’m talking about isn’t the exertions of one person for a
day.  We’re talking about years of highly trained and creative professional
efforts.  Why Origami is so special is truly beyond me.


I agree with you ... But it is no use telling someone that they should give
up their intellectual property rights.  Some will gladly do so, others will
definitely not.  It is entirely the option of the creator ... not the
consumer.

The reality is that most (not all) origami diagrams, finished models, and
even designs are essentially worthless.  The same is true for published
scientific manuscripts (the modal number if citations of a paper is 0).

(And, FYI, the authors release their copyrights to the publishers as a
condition of publication... You need permission from Wiley, e.g., and they
will give you the right to more than "fair use", if you pay a license fee
of several $1000s).

Best,

Galen Pickett

Re: [Origami] Permission question (Dick and Serena LaVine)

[Weinstein, Michael]

Dick and Serena LaVine done said:

"Aside from any legal or copyright issues (covered extensively on the
OrigamiUSA website), I believe it's important to show respect for the
creators’ artistry and hard work.”

It might not have occurred to anyone, but there is significant work spent in 
preparing an Origami model for presentation in a public forum.  If that isn’t a 
demonstration of respect, I don’t know what is.  If I charged my usual 
consulting fees for my own preparations I’d be quite wealthy.

Now, time for a little rant.  I routinely use data and whole papers from my 
colleagues while teaching genetics and developmental biology.  On the few 
occasions when I’ve informed my colleagues that I was using their work in a 
classroom setting, they’ve been utterly delighted that their work was worthy of 
being spread in such a fashion. None would have dreamed of having their 
permission sought for such a purpose.

Now the work I’m talking about isn’t the exertions of one person for a day.  
We’re talking about years of highly trained and creative professional efforts.  
Why Origami is so special is truly beyond me.   

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Ilan Garibi]

Copyright and teaching:

>From the USA law book:
*the fair use *of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in
copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, t*eaching (including
multiple **copies for classroom use*), scholarship, or research, *is not an
infringement **of copyright.*

Just to remind that the law is very clear about teaching - it is considered
as a fair use. The law simply says - teach whatever you like - including
giving multiple copies for classroom use.

Regarding the OUSA policy to ask permission from the relatives of a
deceased creator -  I find this puzzling at the least. If a person dies,
the least we could do to honor and remember him and his work is by teaching
it. What kind of harm can we make if we teach his model without his
widow's approval? will she lose money over that? will she lose anything?

law, as well as customs that spread in a community should make sense, and
be of use. I think to ask a teacher to look for approval from the family of
a dead creator is (and I am sorry if I my words are too harsh - moderator,
you can mild down this line) bound to bury his work with him.

To make my point, I checked several books, and encourage you to do that
also - if there is no forbidding remark to teach the models included
without permission, and since the law regard teaching as a fair use, I
think OUSA, as well the community as a whole declare that for teaching
purposes one should not need to ask anyone for permission.

Come to think of that - what is the moral ground for a creator to
forbid anyone to teach his work? it's against the spirit of the copyright
law, and against the permission the law provides - how can you override the
law? I really dont understand that.

Best,
Ilan

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[PATRICIA GRODNER]

On Sep 7, 2017, at 12:10 AM, Andrew Hans  wrote:
> 
> I am curious then, as to why Origami OUSA has a different opinion. They
> require us to get permission from the model designer or the estate if
> deceased in order to teach a model at their convention. Is there someone
> from that organization that cares to comment and offer their perspective on
> things?
> 
> Andrew Hans

OrigamiUSA understands the concerns within the origami community regarding 
copyright issues.  As a community that places high value on respect for the 
work of our artists and scholars, it is important to continue to pay attention 
to this important issue. OrigamiUSA has spent considerable time and discussion 
forming policies regarding the use of and permission for teaching, displaying 
and publishing origami models. These discussions take place both at the level 
of the Board of Directors and at the committee level through our Copyright 
Committee, which develops and maintains the copyright policies of OrigamiUSA.  
As can be seen by the recent discussion on this list, there are many opinions 
as well as many constituencies.  The best way for OrigamiUSA to have good 
policies for our community is to continue to monitor and respond to changes in 
the world around us.
 
Copyright law is murky on this topic: there are opinions from qualified lawyers 
on both sides of the issue. In formulating our policy of getting permission, 
OrigamiUSA strives to balance the desires of teachers who don’t want to have to 
ask permission, the desires of artists who wish to be asked, what we currently 
know about copyright law, and prevailing etiquette and mores in formulating the 
policy. While it may not (and cannot) satisfy everyone, many artists have 
expressed their appreciation for being asked; similarly, many teachers 
appreciate the blanket “no need to ask me” permissions given by those who have 
given that on this list.
 
Kind regards,
Patty Grodner
On behalf of OrigamiUSA, Communications 

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Dick and Serena LaVine]

On 9/7/2017 2:10 PM, Andrew Hans wrote:





*I am curious then, as to why Origami OUSA has a different opinion .
Theyrequire us to get permission from the model designer or the estate
ifdeceased in order to teach a model at their convention. Is there
someonefrom that organization that cares to comment and offer their
perspective onthings?*

I'm a member of the convention committee with primary responsibility for
setting up the class schedules. A key part of that job is to make sure that
teachers have permission from the artists to teach their models.

Aside from any legal or copyright issues (covered extensively on the
OrigamiUSA website), I believe it's important to show respect for the
creators' artistry and hard work.

In the 7 or so years I've been working in this area, I've found that most
artists are very appreciative of this courtesy.  Also, in the spirit of
sharing that characterizes so much of what goes on in the origami
community, most are very happy to share their designs with the
teachers.  However, there have been occasions when permission has been
denied. So, all in all, it seems judicious, as well as respectful and
courteous, to make the effort.

Serena
//

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[KDianne Stephens]

> But for those (big universe) who might not even know about the origami 
> community, well, we can’t expect something too far from general common 
> sense.

>In the field of copyrights, "general common sense" could be unethical or even 
>illegal because there are conflicts of interest between content creators and 
>content users. The creators >want to manage the use of their contents, whereas 
>the uses want to use their contents freely

A mere laymen's perspective, US copyright law 17 US Code 107 Limitations on 
exclusive rights: Fair use  https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/10 does 
use the subjective terminology "general common sense".

ORIFUN to all,
Dianne

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Andrew Hans]

OK, now I'm really confused--First of all, Ron, I think you meant Laura's
opinion and not Layla's. For the life of me I can't see the logic of a
higher ground as a safety precaution against the possibility of dissenting
copyright owners... What does that even mean?  It's an origami model, not
state secrets. I buy a book of someone's model or models. I learn and fold
said model(s).  I like the model and want to share it with my fellow
folders. Why, (other than being polite) must I ask permission to teach it
to someone else at a convention?  The concept boggles the mind.  I just
don't get it.

Andrew

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Ronald Koh  wrote:

>
>
> On 9/7/2017 2:10 PM, Andrew Hans wrote:
>
>> I am curious then, as to why Origami OUSA has a different opinion. They
>> require us to get permission from the model designer or the estate if
>> deceased in order to teach a model at their convention.
>>
>> Not everybody shares Ilan's and Layla's opinions regarding copyrights,
> which are only applicable to their own origami creations. I believe OUSA is
> simply sticking to the higher ground as a safety precautions against the
> possibility of complications arising from dissenting copyright owners of
> other origami creations.
>
> Ron
>
>

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Koshiro Hatori]

> But for those (big universe) who might not even know about
> the origami community, well, we can’t expect something too far
> from general common sense.

In the field of copyrights, "general common sense" could be unethical or
even illegal because there are conflicts of interest between content
creators and content users. The creators want to manage the use of their
contents, whereas the uses want to use their contents freely. Most
people are users, and they represent only one side of the conflict.
The goal of origami organizations including OrigamiUSA is, I believe, to
balance between management and usage, not to follow what many people do.
Happy folding,

Hatori, Koshiro
mailto:orig...@ousaan.com
http://www.ousaan.com/

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Ronald Koh]

On 9/7/2017 2:10 PM, Andrew Hans wrote:

I am curious then, as to why Origami OUSA has a different opinion. They
require us to get permission from the model designer or the estate if
deceased in order to teach a model at their convention.

Not everybody shares Ilan's and Layla's opinions regarding copyrights, 
which are only applicable to their own origami creations. I believe OUSA 
is simply sticking to the higher ground as a safety precautions against 
the possibility of complications arising from dissenting copyright 
owners of other origami creations.


Ron

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Andrew Hans]

Ilan Garibi wrote:

 Do we really ask a permission from every writer to read his book in front
 of our class? It doesn't make sense at all, just like with any other
 creation. Do we ask permission from a painter to talk about his paintings
 in class?

Laura Rozenberg wrote:

I totally agree and second Ilan’s thoughts. In the past I used the same
analogy
as this questions surfaces time and again.
We don’t ask permission to the authors of text books in a chemistry class,
or a biology class,
We don’t call Sony records (or whoever holds the copyright) to use The
Beatles’s scores
to teach their music in a conservatory teaching room.

I am curious then, as to why Origami OUSA has a different opinion. They
require us to get permission from the model designer or the estate if
deceased in order to teach a model at their convention. Is there someone
from that organization that cares to comment and offer their perspective on
things?

Andrew Hans

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Laura R]

On Sep 7, 2017, at 6:12 AM, Koshiro Hatori  wrote:
> 
> I would be on the safe side and ask permissions when I use someone's 
> origami models in my classes.
> 
> Hatori, Koshiro

I do agree. I I were to teach a model I would search for the author 
to let him/her know and ask for permission. I learnt that being
part of the origami community, and I think it is 
a polite thing to do. If he said “no”, I would look for something else. 
But I try to see the big picture as well. I am aware that most people
these days, who purchase an origami book on Amazon or elsewhere
may not even be aware of this sort of discussion, and simply do what
they are accustomed to do in workshops, classes, etc. —grab the
book and teach. He might live in the middle of Patagonia and might
never heard or even imagine that they need to reach out for an author
through emails or any other means of communication. It seems
to me a tacit rule for certain countries and places, not for everyone. 
Common sense. 

A parallel discussion would be: an origami teacher should be entitled 
of a payment for his/her services if he wishes so? 
My opinion is a strong yes, whether he teaches a traditional model 
or someone else’s model. He’s getting paid for his knowledge as a teacher, 
which comprises a certain set of skills, experience, and personal 
characteristics.
Should she share the profits or pay
a percentage with the author in case there is one? Again, for those
who happen to be in the “little bubble” where we are all in here, we can discuss
this and mostly will agree. Either because we believe it’s the right thing to 
do 
or because we don’t want to upset our friends. ;) 
But for those (big universe) who might not even know about
the origami community, well, we can’t expect something too far
from general common sense. 

Laura

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Koshiro Hatori]

> > Do we really ask a permission from every writer to read his book in front
> > of our class? It doesn't make sense at all, just like with any other
> > creation. Do we ask permission from a painter to talk about his paintings
> > in class?
> > Ilan Garibi
> 
> I totally agree and second Ilan’s thoughts. 
> Laura Rozenberg

Though Ilan's and Laura's points make sense as personal opinions, I am
sure 
not everyone think the same way.

In Japan, we happens to have almost the same disputes in music. JASRAC,
the 
Japan's largest copyrights agency for composers and musicians, wants to 
charge license fees for musical works that are used in private music
schools.
The agency believes the music schools need licenses to use music works
in 
paid music classes. Of course, all music schools disagree. It seems many
Japanese are on music schools' side, but at least some layers say JASRAC 
has legal rights to charge license fee for tunes played in private music 
schools.

I would be on the safe side and ask permissions when I use someone's 
origami models in my classes.

Happy folding,

Hatori, Koshiro
mailto:orig...@ousaan.com
http://www.ousaan.com/

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Laura R]

On Sep 5, 2017, at 3:24 PM, Ilan Garibi  wrote:

> 
> Do we really ask a permission from every writer to read his book in front
> of our class? It doesn't make sense at all, just like with any other
> creation. Do we ask permission from a painter to talk about his paintings
> in class?

> Ilan Garibi

I totally agree and second Ilan’s thoughts. In the past I used the same analogy 
as this questions surfaces time and again. 
We don’t ask permission to the authors of text books in a chemistry class, or a 
biology class,
We don’t call Sony records (or whoever holds the copyright) to use The 
Beatles’s scores
to teach their music in a conservatory teaching room. We do, and should, of 
course, 
ask for permission if the music will be played in an auditorium or be 
broadcast, etc. 
As for a teacher receiving a payment for his time and teaching skills, why not? 
He is not
receiving a payment for creating a model, he should be paid, and encouraged to 
request
a payment for he has received an education (either self-educated or formally) 
and because he is putting
into practice pedagogic tools, he knows how to conduct a class, etc. Anyone 
believes he doesn't deserve
a payment for that? Why origami should always be taught “free” as if we had to 
beg
or as if origami shouldn’t deserve to be considered a serious, or as serious 
as, any other
art, named, painting, sculpture, engraving, etc.? 
I do believe an origami teacher should be paid for his time and for his
knowledge, which has nothing to do with the text book (e.g. a diagram book) he 
choose to use
in class. Please. Consider this. All over the world. Many teachers don’t even 
imagine 
that we are still discussing this in our little endogamic origami bubble. They 
just grab an origami book
from the shelf and use it in cass/workshop. No question asked because it would 
just seem so obvious. 
It doesn’t even come to their mind that they have to start collecting emails 
from an author they only
know by the name on the book who lives perhaps in the antipodes of the world. 

Thanks
Laura Rozenberg

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Ilan Garibi]

Following the string about asking permission to teach models...

HI guys,
It's been awhile since I posted here anything of importance, but this
question really pushed by button.
The next sentences are my opinion only.
For me, whenever you want to teach origami without profit, just do it.
Teach any model you like from any book you bought, or any diagram that was
published in a convention book you got. It is totally within your rights.
Do we really ask a permission from every writer to read his book in front
of our class? It doesn't make sense at all, just like with any other
creation. Do we ask permission from a painter to talk about his paintings
in class?

Moreover, at least in Israel, after a poet took the Ministry of Education
to court, for using his poem in a literature test, the law was changed so
any teacher, while teaching in any educational institute, can use any work
of art for his classes without asking for permission.

In a more personal note, I, as an artist, love to know someone teaches my
models. I feel honored and blessed by that. I gave, and give again, a
complete permission to teach any model of mine, give away any diagram of
mine to all your  students, friends and family, including third nephews,
neighbours and strangers on the subway.

Origami is about sharing, and not to be afraid if you violate or not some
(disputable) rights if you teach a model.

Best,
Ilan Garibi



אילן גריבי Ilan Garibi
Origami artist and designer
0503275345

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[KDianne Stephens]

> can I teach origami and whose models can I teach

Check out US copyright law on "Fair Use" and teaching.

17 U.S. Code § 107 - Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a
copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes
such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple
copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement
of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any
particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include—
(1)
the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a
commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2)
the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3)
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4)
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair
use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.
(Pub. L. 94–553, title I
,
§ 101, Oct. 19, 1976, 90 Stat. 2546
; Pub. L.
101–650, title VI
,
§ 607, Dec. 1, 1990, 104 Stat. 5132
; Pub. L.
102–492
,
Oct. 24, 1992, 106 Stat. 3145
.)

ORIFUN to all.
Dianne

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Matthew Green]

> On Aug 31, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Lisa Corfman  wrote:
> 
> Hey Folders!
> 
> I am excited to be starting an after school job entertaining kindergarten
> through 3rd graders. I get to run an activity daily with the kids. My
> question is, can I teach origami and whose models can I teach? I am not
> getting paid to teach the kids origami, I am just making sure they are safe
> and have a good afternoon. I do want to inspire a love of origami in the
> kids. Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Lisa

Hi Lisa,

I think your safest bet is to teach traditional origami, or origami for which 
the creator has freely distributed diagrams. 
By traditional origami, I mean models the author of which  is unknown and which 
have been around “forever." A good source for traditional origami is John 
Montroll’s book “Fun and Simple Origami.”  It has some models of his own 
design, but most of the 101 models are traditional, and hence public domain 
(not the diagrams, but you can teach the models without distributing diagrams). 
For free diagrams on the internet, there are many resources, but 
http://www.origami-resource-center.com/ 
 is a good place to start.

I’m sure others will chime in with plenty more suggestions…

Have fun!
Matthew


 

Re: [Origami] Permission question

[Diana Lee via Origami]

Hi,I ran origami/paper craft sessions from grades K to 3 and here is a summary 
of what I taught.  One project per week, from Oct to June.  Enjoy:
http://www.origami-resource-center.com/school-projects.html

Diana
--    
http://www.origami-resource-center.com/   http://make-origami.com 
--