Re: orion-list Head of the kings of Yavan
On 2001-07-15 Dierk van den Berg wrote: - The terminus technicus 'Kittim' corresponds to Jub's 'Mighty Men (ie professionals) of War' A euphemism in Jubilees as a technical terminus?? Kittim corresponds to professional sea-vermin. as well as to Josephus' 'Macedonians'. This is hardly Josephus's idea. In 1 Mac 1:1, Alexander the Great is said to be born in Kittim (the typical expansion of a pejorative that I mentioned), but in the same verse he is also called Alexander of Macedonia. The 'Cypriotes' in 2Macc, for example, belong in to that military category. - Romans are indeed 'Sea-people', at least after the Punic Wars, the Pirate War, the Civil War and Octavian's takeover. After a post where reading in context is emphasized? There is a substantial difference between sea-peoples used as a pejorative back then and sea- peoples used as a reference to maritime peoples, that is, people who are at home on the sea. This is a clear distinction which should be obvious from context. *As I already said*, the Romans became numbered among the vermin who operated from ships: the Kittim. The Romans, however, were not sea-peoples; they were landlubbers. They were not at home on the sea; they were rotten seamen. They couldn't balance a load to save their lives. The Romans were always losing ships because of improper lading. (Which is why some magnificent large bronzes are still here in Greece instead of in some Western Museum.) The Romans were such poor seamen that they would ship their legions across the English channel to Brittany and then march them overland -- even when the troops were urgently needed back at Rome. The trip by sea from Southern England to Italy took at most 3 days... While certainly overseen by the Romans, grain and trade shipments were mostly left to the maritime professionals: the Greeks and the Phoenicians. The Phoenicians didn't disappear from the scene merely because Carthage was taken by land and lost the 2nd Punic war. The Phoenicians held the distance and blue water trade routes under the Pax Assyriaca; they still held them under the Pax Romana... and everybody knew it. For Josephus' contemporaries, thus, only Rome was a naval power. Other ideas are illusory anachronism. Naval merely means 'related to or of a navy'. There is quite a difference between a military navy and a merchant navy -- and expertise. Josephus emends the text of Gen 10:4. By your reckoning, he is also taking a dig at the Romans. Oh, incidentally, a few items that have been left open. First, the Romans were rather good at cartography -- probably learned it from the Greeks. Latitudinally, they were fairly close -- using their mensural base of the Roman mile. Longitude, though, requires accurate clocks: the chronometer was not invented until the 17th century CE. The sea voyage from the west coast of Hibernia to Cornwall took 2 days. Hence, Roman maps show the British Isles as being a two-day march in Roman miles from the Iberian peninsula. Also, the fossil record shows that palm trees are not native to the Nile valley. Palms *are* native to the Asian side of the Eastern Mediterranean -- and have been since the cretaceous. According to fossils, the date palm arrived in the area of Judea sometime between 20 million and 130 million years ago. The date palm was indeed an import: it was imported INTO Egypt less then 9,000 years ago. Cheers, Rochelle -- Dr. Rochelle I. Altman, co-coordinator IOUDAIOS-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Rochelle I. Altman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILER BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Head of the kings of Yavan
Rochelle wrote: A euphemism in Jubilees as a technical terminus?? Kittim corresponds to professional sea-vermin. You say that notwithstanding its military dimension: the professional phalanx. Nb 'vermin': that is no scholarly way to understand the problem. as well as to Josephus' 'Macedonians'. This is hardly Josephus's idea. In 1 Mac 1:1, Alexander the Great is said to be born in Kittim (the typical expansion of a pejorative that I mentioned), but in the same verse he is also called Alexander of Macedonia. Make an electronic search through the complete Josephus - and then answer the to be found 'anachronistic' terminology . The 'Cypriotes' in 2Macc, for example, belong in to that military category. - Romans are indeed 'Sea-people', at least after the Punic Wars, the Pirate War, the Civil War and Octavian's takeover. After a post where reading in context is emphasized? Are you trying to camouflage a known phrase behind the context. SS, for example, means SS - whatever you have to say else. There is a substantial difference between sea-peoples used as a pejorative back then and sea- peoples used as a reference to maritime peoples, that is, people who are at home on the sea. This is a clear distinction which should be obvious from context. If that would be the case, then, Jos would have changed the terminology, I believe. *As I already said*, the Romans became numbered among the vermin who operated from ships: the Kittim. Pls avoid valuations like 'vermin' from the political retrospective. The Romans, however, were not sea-peoples; they were landlubbers. Yeah - they conquered Britain by tunnelling. They were not at home on the sea; they were rotten seamen. That shows less profound knowledge of Roman naval warfare. They couldn't balance a load to save their lives. That's news from kindergarten. Sorry. The Romans were always losing ships because of improper lading. (Which is why some magnificent large bronzes are still here in Greece instead of in some Western Museum.) Are you perhaps talking about the 18th/19th century? The Romans were such poor seamen that they would ship their legions across the English channel to Brittany and then march them overland -- even when the troops were urgently needed back at Rome. An argument from silence. Give us the references to the event first, please. The trip by sea from Southern England to Italy took at most 3 days... References, please. While certainly overseen by the Romans, grain and trade shipments were mostly left to the maritime professionals: the Greeks and the Phoenicians. ... the navigation was Phoenician and the construction basis of the freighters (often convoys) was Greek. Most captains were Greek by practical reason. The remake of such assimilation you'll find in the post-War USA (or CCCP): most of the specialists of the NASA - like W. von Braun - came from Hitler's Penemuende (Germany). Same it was with the jetfighters, tanks and the military organisation of independent battle groups (first introduced by the Weapon-SS in the Ardennes Offensive). So what will you demonstrate without any reference at all? The Phoenicians didn't disappear from the scene merely because Carthage was taken by land and lost the 2nd Punic war. The Phoenicians held the distance and blue water trade routes under the Pax Assyriaca; they still held them under the Pax Romana... and everybody knew it. The reference please (Carthage remained totaly annihilated after the killing of everybody). For Josephus' contemporaries, thus, only Rome was a naval power. Other ideas are illusory anachronism. Naval merely means 'related to or of a navy'. There is quite a difference between a military navy and a merchant navy -- and expertise. Josephus emends the text of Gen 10:4. By your reckoning, he is also taking a dig at the Romans. The merchand navy was by no means independent, as you try to suggest, but economical subject of the Empire. Oh, incidentally, a few items that have been left open. First, the Romans were rather good at cartography -- probably learned it from the Greeks. You mean itineraries, for only low scale information is militarily tactically to be utilized. Latitudinally, they were fairly close -- using their mensural base of the Roman mile. Sure, for they thought linear. Not simply in miles, but in miles corresponding to the day march, therefore the distortion. Longitude, though, requires accurate clocks: the chronometer was not invented until the 17th century CE. The sea voyage from the west coast of Hibernia to Cornwall took 2 days. Hence, Roman maps show the British Isles as being a two-day march in Roman miles from the Iberian peninsula. Logically - have a look, for example, at the Tabula Peutingeriana (Euphrates-Tigris area) Also, the fossil record shows that palm trees are not native to the Nile valley. Palms *are* native to the Asian side of the Eastern Mediterranean --
orion-list RE: orion V2001 #23
Rochelle Altman wrote in response to Marcus Wood: MW Possibly the best solution to all this is to follow Josephus MW Ant. I, vi, 1 where he refers the term to any sea-peoples. RA: This is one of Josephus's insider jokes. Sea-peoples was a pejorative around the Eastern Med. Gen 10:4 is very carefully worded as island-peoples; Josephus's emendation to fit any sea-peoples is a snide dig at the Greeks. It ought to be mentioned that the Romans were NOT sea-peoples. A quick reading of AJ 1.128 (all islands and the majority of those along the sea) does not give me the impression of an insider joke or a snide dig at Greeks. It seems pretty neutral. Why do you say this is an insider joke? I am aware that Josephus does at other times poke fun at Greeks. Because not everyone may have access to Feldman's new commentary on AJ 1-4, I thought it might be helpful to quote his note on Kittim in AJ 1.128: Passages such as Num. 24:24, Isa 23:12, Jer 2:10, Ezek 27:6, and Dan 11:30 refer to the maritime setting of Kittim. Its identification specifically with Cyprus, accepted by Borst (1957:123), may be questioned in view of the reference to it in 1 Macc 1:1 as the birthplace of Alexander the Great. Targum Onkelos on Num 24:24 identifies it with Rome. The fact that the Dead Sea Pesher of Hab. (2:12) speaks of the Kittim as coming from far coastlands to overcome Israel would also seem to identify them with the Romans. Though the preponderance of rabbinic tradition (Midrash Gen. Rabbah 37.1, Jerusalem Targum and Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Num 24:24) identifies the area as Italy, Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Gen 10:4 identifies it as Achaea, that is, Greece. Other suggested identifications are with the Aegean islands, Peloponnesus, and Macedonia (Borst [1957:123]). On the various theories as to the identification of the Kittim see Braverman (1978:117-18) and Baker (1992:4:93). Ken Penner, M.C.S. (Regent College), M.A. (McMaster) Ph.D. Student, Religious Studies, Biblical Field (Early Judaism major) McMaster University Hamilton, Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] For private reply, e-mail to Penner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILER BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
Re: orion-list Head of the kings of Yavan
Taking head in hand, it seems to me Dr. Altman's thesis that Kittim was a universally pejorative term involves some circularity in argument, since a fair reading of Ant. 1.128 shows no insulting content, unless one approaches this passage with a prior thesis that all references to Kittim _must_ be negative. Chetimos held the island of Chetima - the modern Cyprus - whence the name Chetim given by the Hebrews to all islands and to most maritime countries. Where is the insult here? Josephus was not that subtle. The idea that this contains a negative reference to the Sea Peoples (i.e. the late Bronze Age invasions? - the Greeks did not consider all thassalocracies bad) is a forced reading in my opinion. Dierk is clearly correct that the Kittim have military-mercenary associations in Jubilees as elsewhere. Indeed, the Kittim appear to almost everywhere have a military connotation, except Josephus, where no such association is apparent. Best regards, Russell Gmirkin For private reply, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from Orion, e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: unsubscribe Orion. Archives are on the Orion Web site, http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il. (PLEASE REMOVE THIS TRAILER BEFORE REPLYING TO THE MESSAGE)
