Re: SV: to boldly go where no man has gone before
At 08:36 15.12.00 , you wrote: Den här tråden börjar bli plågsamt tråkig.. Vem bryr sig om hur folk stavar så länge som dom kan förklara sitt problem eller sin lösning? Låt oss hålla oss till Java och Orion istället, ok? And for the rest of you non-swedes: Lets stop wasting bandwith on grammar and get back to Java and Orion, shall we? hört, hört! and for the rest of you non-germans: +1 ;-) robert (-) Robert Krüger (-) SIGNAL 7 Gesellschaft für Informationstechnologie mbH (-) Brüder-Knauß-Str. 79 - 64285 Darmstadt, (-) Tel: 06151 665401, Fax: 06151 665373 (-) [EMAIL PROTECTED], www.signal7.de
RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before
My Orion could not interpret your message correctly as there is a syntax error in it (well, nobody is perfect). As for the poorly formulated information: sometimes people are shit-scared to write publicly anything in the language which they haven't mastered because they don't want to make fools of themselves. So when they do (write), they sometimes minimise the chance of that by writing less. Also, some least informative postings on this list were put together in a very perfect language. Jarek -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Hani Suleiman Sent: 14 December 2000 03:26 To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before Well flameproofsuit My native language isn't English either, but this IS an English mailing list, isn't it? I think it's reasonable that if someone requests help, they should at least be able to express their problem coherently. They're very unlikely to get help if nobody can understand the problem to start with! Mind you, the ejb-interest list really gets some.'interestingly worded' posts and it really does lower the overall quality, IMHO (or at least, it's quite an annoyance). Thankfully enough vendors pipe in to really make it worth subscribing. /flameprootsuit On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Juan Lorandi (Chile) wrote: flamebait I've been reading all those neat messages about lack of english proficcency and I'd like to point out that more than half the members of Orion-Interest's native language isn't english... After all, orion itself is swedish... And being non-english, I really dislike any discriminating comments... It's a wide world and we all have to be tolerant... /flamebait JP
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Juan Lorandi (Chile) wrote: flamebait I've been reading all those neat messages about lack of english proficcency and I'd like to point out that more than half the members of Orion-Interest's native language isn't english... After all, orion itself is swedish... And being non-english, I really dislike any discriminating comments... It's a wide world and we all have to be tolerant... /flamebait Personally, I think all you non-US people need to get with the program and immigrate. Everyone - and I mean EVERYONE - knows that English is the best language out there. That's why, for example, the Bible was written in English. offtopicYes, I know, I'm getting sarcastic. But still! There's a fine point here - we could all use a lot less Instant Reaction and leave such concepts to our servers. /offtopic --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before (long)
Simply great Hitesh! I hope that settles it. Now let's get on with the business (JSPs, Servlets, EJBs etc.) at hand. Paul From: Hitesh Jasani [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before (long) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 01:51:13 -0500 See comments below Hani Suleiman wrote: Well flameproofsuit My native language isn't English either, but this IS an English mailing list, isn't it? I think it's reasonable that if someone requests help, they should at least be able to express their problem coherently. They're Yes, absolutely. They should be able to clearly articulate their issues, details on their hardware setup, versions of all relevent software (OS, system software, user programs) running on their system (including patch levels, etc.). If they haven't detailed all of this in their request, then they are wasting my time since I will have to then query them for this information piecemeal. very unlikely to get help if nobody can understand the problem to start with! Mind you, the ejb-interest list really gets some.'interestingly In addition, they should be up to date on all of the relevant specifications related to Java2, EJB 1.1 2.0, Servlets, Security, Http, XML, etc. If they don't have the time to read through these specs and be literate, then I don't have time to answer any of their questions. worded' posts and it really does lower the overall quality, IMHO (or at least, it's quite an annoyance). Thankfully enough vendors pipe in to I wholeheartedly agree we should take them out back and flog them publicly. [Flip sarcasm switch to off] Okay, while I was being sarcastic up above, there is some truth to the fact that when people describe problems on this list it helps if they are literate in English, explain their hardware/software set up and have some knowledge about the area (EJB, servlets, jsp, etc.) they're having problems. It seems to me that you've arbitrarily chosen to set the barrier to entry at the level of English literacy. Ie. if they're not fluent in English they are an annoyance to you and you don't want to waste your time in answering their questions. Well, what about those who would say that your bar is set too low? Some people would say that answering a question is not worthwhile unless you've already read the specifications/manuals/sample code/documents multiple times. Setting a bar that high would make this list more efficient ... but not a place that I would want to frequent. We're not perfect. By the grace of God, I and the Internet happened to grow up with English as our primary language. But while I struggle to learn a new language, the Internet is soaking up tons of new languages every day. I can already see the writing on the wall as search engine queries routinely turn up pages in languages other than English. It won't be long before I may have to be subscribed to a non-English resource and I'll then have to struggle to translate my questions into a language foreign to me. When that day comes, I hope there are people on the list who are more understanding than yourself. The point of this list is that people are able to ask questions and provide responses. If you don't want to answer any questions, simply ignore those messages. But don't look down at those who aren't as fluent in English as yourself . unless you yourself wish to be judged. People on this list have varying levels of fluency in English, Java, EJB, http, etc. I applaud everyone who is trying to better themselves by expanding their horizons in any and all of these areas. Life is simple: Lead and help others, follow and learn or just get out of the way. Hitesh [snip] _ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Dear list members, I am just a nobody on this list, and in this world. But I have to point out some things, before this language problem becomes too inflated. First of all, what is the purpose of this list? I think (I didn't check, shame on me!) that it should provide a means of communication and support among all developers who use Orion for learning or for production. I belong to the first group, and I think so do many of us. We learn from you, the Developers who use Orion, and J2EE in your everyday work. We know less than you do, and we certainly should be punished for asking a question which has an obvious answer in a spec or in Orion docs. However, I feel that a person should not be punished for not speaking English correctly. You could have done so, only if there had been an alternative German language list which is not the case. We are fortunate to be able to speak English at a high level. I would be happy to be able to say the same things about my German proficiency. I think Karsten's English is not really a problem. What you are doing here is somehow a xenophobe and club-style behavior, sending out the message: "you cannot join us until you improve your English!". I thought this list was about Orion and helping each other... You could have simply asked Karsten: "What do you mean? I did not understand what exactly your problem was." I apologize for my bad English and for wasting your precious time, oh, you Developer Gods! Ervin Jakab
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before
On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Ervin Jakab wrote: Dear list members, snip! I apologize for my bad English and for wasting your precious time, oh, you Developer Gods! Apology not accepted. I've scheduled you an appointment with a really terrible masseur (he has six fingers and one nail is three inches long) as punishment. However... your point is still quite valid. Come on, guys, drop the issue. I understood the original poster well enough that if I'd have had sufficient time and motivation I could have answered him; I'd be surprised to find that I'm unique in this. Language is a barrier that should exist - not in person-to-person, not in business-to-business, not in program-to-program. It's time to remember that, in my opinion, and work toward a time when solutions are available to cross all boundaries. And yes, i know, that sounded all New Age dippy trippy. You'll live. --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Oh dear, certainly off-topic, but your example is as foolish as your logic. :) The Old Testament of the Bible was originally written in Hebrew (mostly) and the New Testament in classical greek (koine). Sheesh. As I meet and interact with people outside the US, I'm always impressed that they know more languages than me in the first place, and usually are better versed in world affairs, second. Careful with your heart, friend! :) ken. -Original Message- From: Joseph B. Ottinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 6:03 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Juan Lorandi (Chile) wrote: flamebait I've been reading all those neat messages about lack of english proficcency and I'd like to point out that more than half the members of Orion-Interest's native language isn't english... After all, orion itself is swedish... And being non-english, I really dislike any discriminating comments... It's a wide world and we all have to be tolerant... /flamebait Personally, I think all you non-US people need to get with the program and immigrate. Everyone - and I mean EVERYONE - knows that English is the best language out there. That's why, for example, the Bible was written in English. offtopicYes, I know, I'm getting sarcastic. But still! There's a fine point here - we could all use a lot less Instant Reaction and leave such concepts to our servers. /offtopic --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before
For the record, apparently my sarcasm re: the language of the Bible was completely missed. I *know* what languages the Bible was written in (Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek) and my point was that English is not the only language, nor is it the most important language the world has known. On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Ken Burcham wrote: Oh dear, certainly off-topic, but your example is as foolish as your logic. :) The Old Testament of the Bible was originally written in Hebrew (mostly) and the New Testament in classical greek (koine). Sheesh. As I meet and interact with people outside the US, I'm always impressed that they know more languages than me in the first place, and usually are better versed in world affairs, second. Careful with your heart, friend! :) ken. -Original Message- From: Joseph B. Ottinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 6:03 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Juan Lorandi (Chile) wrote: flamebait I've been reading all those neat messages about lack of english proficcency and I'd like to point out that more than half the members of Orion-Interest's native language isn't english... After all, orion itself is swedish... And being non-english, I really dislike any discriminating comments... It's a wide world and we all have to be tolerant... /flamebait Personally, I think all you non-US people need to get with the program and immigrate. Everyone - and I mean EVERYONE - knows that English is the best language out there. That's why, for example, the Bible was written in English. offtopicYes, I know, I'm getting sarcastic. But still! There's a fine point here - we could all use a lot less Instant Reaction and leave such concepts to our servers. /offtopic --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before
When someone asked for help, it's hard to say what level of expertise they should have. If it is a newcomer (we were all there at one time), and they ask a basic question that can be answered by (1) a working example at a web site, such as www.jollem.com, (2) A book or online tutorial, or (3) the documentation itself (then, by all means, direct them there). Someone may also be a developer on other application servers, such as Jboss, Jonas, or OpenEJB. If so, and they ask a technical question, answer it also, since the rest of us can learn from it. Isn't it to everyone's benefit to get more people on the J2EE bandwagon? I'm sure Sun would agree wholeheartedly. And language is not necessary a barrier to their intellectual capacity. I have a friend who is Greek, has trouble with the English language (despite being in this country for several years), but has advanced degrees from the University of Chicago and Oxford. -Original Message- From: Ervin Jakab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 6:09 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before Dear list members, I am just a nobody on this list, and in this world. But I have to point out some things, before this language problem becomes too inflated. First of all, what is the purpose of this list? I think (I didn't check, shame on me!) that it should provide a means of communication and support among all developers who use Orion for learning or for production. I belong to the first group, and I think so do many of us. We learn from you, the Developers who use Orion, and J2EE in your everyday work. We know less than you do, and we certainly should be punished for asking a question which has an obvious answer in a spec or in Orion docs. However, I feel that a person should not be punished for not speaking English correctly. You could have done so, only if there had been an alternative German language list which is not the case. We are fortunate to be able to speak English at a high level. I would be happy to be able to say the same things about my German proficiency. I think Karsten's English is not really a problem. What you are doing here is somehow a xenophobe and club-style behavior, sending out the message: "you cannot join us until you improve your English!". I thought this list was about Orion and helping each other... You could have simply asked Karsten: "What do you mean? I did not understand what exactly your problem was." I apologize for my bad English and for wasting your precious time, oh, you Developer Gods! Ervin Jakab
RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Oh dear oh dear oh deary me.. may I suggest we ban all people with no appreciation of sarcasm? Anyway while the bible may not have been written in English, but can we at least agree He was proabably educated at Eton? Tim --- |+--- || Ken Burcham | || [EMAIL PROTECTED]| || ncorp.com | || | || 14/12/00 13:16 | || Please respond to| || Orion-Interest | || | |+--- --| | | | To: Orion-Interest [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | cc: (bcc: Tim Clarke/Globebyte Limited UK) | | Subject: RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before | --| Oh dear, certainly off-topic, but your example is as foolish as your logic. :) The Old Testament of the Bible was originally written in Hebrew (mostly) and the New Testament in classical greek (koine). Sheesh. As I meet and interact with people outside the US, I'm always impressed that they know more languages than me in the first place, and usually are better versed in world affairs, second. Careful with your heart, friend! :) ken. -Original Message- From: Joseph B. Ottinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 6:03 AM To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Juan Lorandi (Chile) wrote: flamebait I've been reading all those neat messages about lack of english proficcency and I'd like to point out that more than half the members of Orion-Interest's native language isn't english... After all, orion itself is swedish... And being non-english, I really dislike any discriminating comments... It's a wide world and we all have to be tolerant... /flamebait Personally, I think all you non-US people need to get with the program and immigrate. Everyone - and I mean EVERYONE - knows that English is the best language out there. That's why, for example, the Bible was written in English. offtopicYes, I know, I'm getting sarcastic. But still! There's a fine point here - we could all use a lot less Instant Reaction and leave such concepts to our servers. /offtopic --- Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://epesh.com/ IT Consultant
RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before
You could have simply asked Karsten: "What do you mean? I did not understand what exactly your problem was." Or even better, we could have asked Karsten to express the problem in German, then had one of the fluent German subscribers express the problem back into English. I do not fault Karsten's English. Perhaps the problem is my German. Shame on us. -tim all the German I know: "Ich mechta erdnusbutter essen." And, yes, I know German's don't have peanut butter.
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Take it to alt.rec.etiquette. If you can read the post, and you know the answer, then reply. Otherwise, don't. tim.
RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before
I home my english is ok; I hope this list is not a list for kids 5 years old -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Endres Sent: jeudi 14 decembre 2000 16:50 To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before Take it to alt.rec.etiquette. If you can read the post, and you know the answer, then reply. Otherwise, don't. tim.
RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Stop this shit -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Endres Sent: jeudi 14 decembre 2000 16:50 To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before Take it to alt.rec.etiquette. If you can read the post, and you know the answer, then reply. Otherwise, don't. tim.
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Holy $@*!! people... what is all this "smarten up and speak english" crap floating around? Isn't it finally time for these self-centered egotistical Americans to get over themselves and realize that saying you're the center of the universe doesn't directly translate into reality? Seriously. English is English after all, not American. If you want to get picky about the way people are typing words on the screen, why don't you blokes start spelling things correctly? If you are too feeble-minded to understand what someone is trying to say (maybe because the words are too big for you, or maybe because there's a few pronouns missing and you failed grammar in grade school), ignore it. There are those of us whose ability to comprehend another human being does not vary directly with our ability (or desire) to memorize the American National Anthem. Derek Akers Senior Software Architect Eldan Software, Canada www.eldan.com
RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before
This is poetic justice shame on me Beers, Juan -Original Message- From: Dumitru Sbenghe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Jueves, 14 de Diciembre de 2000 14:17 To: Orion-Interest Subject: RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before I home my english is ok; I hope this list is not a list for kids 5 years old -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Endres Sent: jeudi 14 decembre 2000 16:50 To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before Take it to alt.rec.etiquette. If you can read the post, and you know the answer, then reply. Otherwise, don't. tim.
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Why is it a shit, Mr. Sbenghe? - Original Message - From: "Dumitru Sbenghe" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 7:14 PM Subject: RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before Stop this shit -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Endres Sent: jeudi 14 decembre 2000 16:50 To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before Take it to alt.rec.etiquette. If you can read the post, and you know the answer, then reply. Otherwise, don't. tim.
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Man, who let the kids out? Come on folks, let's get on with this thread ok? Thanks R At 09:36 PM 12/14/2000 +0200, you wrote: Why is it a shit, Mr. Sbenghe? - Original Message - From: "Dumitru Sbenghe" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Orion-Interest" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 7:14 PM Subject: RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before Stop this shit -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tim Endres Sent: jeudi 14 decembre 2000 16:50 To: Orion-Interest Subject: Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before Take it to alt.rec.etiquette. If you can read the post, and you know the answer, then reply. Otherwise, don't. tim. Robert S. Sfeir Director of Software Development PERCEPTICON corporation San Francisco, CA 94123 w - http://www.percepticon.com/ e- [EMAIL PROTECTED] t - (415) 749-2900 x205
SV: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Title: SV: to boldly go where no man has gone before Den här tråden börjar bli plågsamt tråkig.. Vem bryr sig om hur folk stavar så länge som dom kan förklara sitt problem eller sin lösning? Låt oss hålla oss till Java och Orion istället, ok? And for the rest of you non-swedes: Lets stop wasting bandwith on grammar and get back to Java and Orion, shall we? -Ursprungligt meddelande- Från: Tim Drury [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Skickat: den 14 december 2000 07:38 Till: Orion-Interest Ämne: RE: to boldly go where no man has gone before You could have simply asked Karsten: What do you mean? I did not understand what exactly your problem was. Or even better, we could have asked Karsten to express the problem in German, then had one of the fluent German subscribers express the problem back into English. I do not fault Karsten's English. Perhaps the problem is my German. Shame on us. -tim all the German I know: Ich mechta erdnusbutter essen. And, yes, I know German's don't have peanut butter.
to boldly go where no man has gone before
flamebait I've been reading all those neat messages about lack of english proficcency and I'd like to point out that more than half the members of Orion-Interest's native language isn't english... After all, orion itself is swedish... And being non-english, I really dislike any discriminating comments... It's a wide world and we all have to be tolerant... /flamebait JP
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before
Well flameproofsuit My native language isn't English either, but this IS an English mailing list, isn't it? I think it's reasonable that if someone requests help, they should at least be able to express their problem coherently. They're very unlikely to get help if nobody can understand the problem to start with! Mind you, the ejb-interest list really gets some.'interestingly worded' posts and it really does lower the overall quality, IMHO (or at least, it's quite an annoyance). Thankfully enough vendors pipe in to really make it worth subscribing. /flameprootsuit On Thu, 14 Dec 2000, Juan Lorandi (Chile) wrote: flamebait I've been reading all those neat messages about lack of english proficcency and I'd like to point out that more than half the members of Orion-Interest's native language isn't english... After all, orion itself is swedish... And being non-english, I really dislike any discriminating comments... It's a wide world and we all have to be tolerant... /flamebait JP
Re: to boldly go where no man has gone before (long)
See comments below Hani Suleiman wrote: Well flameproofsuit My native language isn't English either, but this IS an English mailing list, isn't it? I think it's reasonable that if someone requests help, they should at least be able to express their problem coherently. They're Yes, absolutely. They should be able to clearly articulate their issues, details on their hardware setup, versions of all relevent software (OS, system software, user programs) running on their system (including patch levels, etc.). If they haven't detailed all of this in their request, then they are wasting my time since I will have to then query them for this information piecemeal. very unlikely to get help if nobody can understand the problem to start with! Mind you, the ejb-interest list really gets some.'interestingly In addition, they should be up to date on all of the relevant specifications related to Java2, EJB 1.1 2.0, Servlets, Security, Http, XML, etc. If they don't have the time to read through these specs and be literate, then I don't have time to answer any of their questions. worded' posts and it really does lower the overall quality, IMHO (or at least, it's quite an annoyance). Thankfully enough vendors pipe in to I wholeheartedly agree we should take them out back and flog them publicly. [Flip sarcasm switch to off] Okay, while I was being sarcastic up above, there is some truth to the fact that when people describe problems on this list it helps if they are literate in English, explain their hardware/software set up and have some knowledge about the area (EJB, servlets, jsp, etc.) they're having problems. It seems to me that you've arbitrarily chosen to set the barrier to entry at the level of English literacy. Ie. if they're not fluent in English they are an annoyance to you and you don't want to waste your time in answering their questions. Well, what about those who would say that your bar is set too low? Some people would say that answering a question is not worthwhile unless you've already read the specifications/manuals/sample code/documents multiple times. Setting a bar that high would make this list more efficient ... but not a place that I would want to frequent. We're not perfect. By the grace of God, I and the Internet happened to grow up with English as our primary language. But while I struggle to learn a new language, the Internet is soaking up tons of new languages every day. I can already see the writing on the wall as search engine queries routinely turn up pages in languages other than English. It won't be long before I may have to be subscribed to a non-English resource and I'll then have to struggle to translate my questions into a language foreign to me. When that day comes, I hope there are people on the list who are more understanding than yourself. The point of this list is that people are able to ask questions and provide responses. If you don't want to answer any questions, simply ignore those messages. But don't look down at those who aren't as fluent in English as yourself . unless you yourself wish to be judged. People on this list have varying levels of fluency in English, Java, EJB, http, etc. I applaud everyone who is trying to better themselves by expanding their horizons in any and all of these areas. Life is simple: Lead and help others, follow and learn or just get out of the way. Hitesh [snip]
