the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development
Hello all, This question is one that I'm wrestling with right now. As I'm learning to develop with C# and PowerShell (I want my first project to be a PowerShell-based SSH client with some of the already-developed libraries for the protocol at its core), I see a lot of places where I could eventually join the .Net community as an open source developer (helping other projects and volunteering my time where other projects need a hand) and earn money through donations and through support contracts if my own personal project ideas ever take off. I'm definitely getting there though, I know that. But how do you decide based on the cost of development software (Visual Studio Professional 2012 and TFS 2012, or in my case, the express version of TFS used for CI and hooked up to a CodePlex either Git or TFS but probably TFS repository), and weigh the costs against going entirely for-proffit, in other words, closed source, proprietary development? I like the idea of Open Source because it allows the code to be available for everyone, especially if you find that you are already working at a job you love, right? So do you weigh the benefits and drawbacks of the Open Source community based on how much time you want to spend on a project? (though I don't think that should be the only factor; some of the best software in my opinion is not from the commercial market but from the OS community). Thanks all for your thoughts; I'm really trying to decide this; I see myself as an administrator by trade and a developer for the fun and enjoyment of it.
Re: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development
I'd suggest to try each and see what sits best for you personally. :) Some projects won't earn any money but might be more fun because of the project itself. Other projects might earn you money but require more of your time, or might not be as interesting or challenging. It really varies. You might also find your situation requires you to spend more of your time on the money earning than the fun community based stuff. You have to eat after all. I consider myself lucky to have such a job that I enjoy. Many people don't. At some point you may find yourself as a developer by trade, and a developer for fun. Or perhaps some other hobby that's not computer related. Life is too short to be doing stuff you don't love. Outsource the rest! :) On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Nathan Chere nathan.ch...@saiglobal.comwrote: This sounds like a job for BizSpark: http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/ Essentially free access to all the MS stack development tools you could possibly need for 3 years while you get your business up and running. Buy licenses for what you use at the end of the 3 years if it takes off, no loss if it doesn't (there used to be a $100 exit fee but they scrapped it). -Original Message- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 8:24 AM To: ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com Subject: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development Hello all, This question is one that I'm wrestling with right now. As I'm learning to develop with C# and PowerShell (I want my first project to be a PowerShell-based SSH client with some of the already-developed libraries for the protocol at its core), I see a lot of places where I could eventually join the .Net community as an open source developer (helping other projects and volunteering my time where other projects need a hand) and earn money through donations and through support contracts if my own personal project ideas ever take off. I'm definitely getting there though, I know that. But how do you decide based on the cost of development software (Visual Studio Professional 2012 and TFS 2012, or in my case, the express version of TFS used for CI and hooked up to a CodePlex either Git or TFS but probably TFS repository), and weigh the costs against going entirely for-proffit, in other words, closed source, proprietary development? I like the idea of Open Source because it allows the code to be available for everyone, especially if you find that you are already working at a job you love, right? So do you weigh the benefits and drawbacks of the Open Source community based on how much time you want to spend on a project? (though I don't think that should be the only factor; some of the best software in my opinion is not from the commercial market but from the OS community). Thanks all for your thoughts; I'm really trying to decide this; I see myself as an administrator by trade and a developer for the fun and enjoyment of it. This message has been scanned for malware by Websense. www.websense.com
jQuery debugging
I'm trying to create a single html page with jQuery inside to interactively calculate a price total based upon the settings of other controls. It's a classic sort of make you order page. Can I get a familiar debugging experience like I'm used into in Visual Studio while writing this page and scripts? I haven't written any JavaScript for years and I have no idea what's available to help me these days. There must be some people in this group writing plain JavaScript or jQuery in their html pages, so what do you do to keep productive? Greg K
Re: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development
ah ok. Only reason you would hide your code is if it is a secret, as in part of your business intellectual property. An algorithm, or whatever that no one else has, and that sets you apart from your competition. It is important from a business perspective to keep what's yours as yours. Arguably, I guess. That would be situations where your income comes from your product and that people are prepared to pay for it because no one else can do what your product does. You can make money from selling your time, or a product, or for providing a service. When you say hiding your code I assume you mean closed source versus open source. It's not truly hidden unless you go to great lengths to obfuscate it. It's not a bad thing to want to protect your IP. Same as its not a bad thing to want to have open source code. Really depends what you are trying to do. As for making money from coding, yeah there are numerous ways. There's apps in market place, Ads, freeware, Shareware. In app purchases, and donations. Contracting and Permanent jobs for someone else. Write a product or service and charge people to use it. All part of the excitement and challenge of working as a developer. :) So yes I agree there's more than hiding your code and charging for your stuff. I do detect a hint of judgement or invalidation against hiding your code and charging for it. It's not right or wrong, but thinking makes it so. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 9:48 AM, Katherine Moss katherine.m...@gordon.eduwrote: I told you guys that I have no interest in starting a business with development (try web hosting instead?). . I’m more interested in having fun as a developer and joining with other developers who need no more reward than community values and doing stuff for the community; I feel that .net projects that are really good with the acception of web applications are truly lacking in the open Source world. And I don’t mind paying for visual studio since for now I have a version that’s a holdover from DreamSpark until I get strong enough to program out in the open, and hopefully by then I’ll have a good job. Technology for me is a lifestyle, so I feel that if I’m doing one thing as a job as well as for a hobby (administration works in both places for me with my server, could be more in the future), then the other one I could do for the os community; there are tons of projects that need a hand out there. What I’m asking more or less, is whether you guys agree with the premise that there are more ways to make money developing other than hiding your code and charging for your stuff. ** ** *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Price *Sent:* Monday, July 08, 2013 9:25 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development ** ** I'd suggest to try each and see what sits best for you personally. :) Some projects won't earn any money but might be more fun because of the project itself. Other projects might earn you money but require more of your time, or might not be as interesting or challenging. It really varies. You might also find your situation requires you to spend more of your time on the money earning than the fun community based stuff. You have to eat after all. I consider myself lucky to have such a job that I enjoy. Many people don't. At some point you may find yourself as a developer by trade, and a developer for fun. Or perhaps some other hobby that's not computer related. Life is too short to be doing stuff you don't love. Outsource the rest! :) ** ** On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Nathan Chere nathan.ch...@saiglobal.com wrote: This sounds like a job for BizSpark: http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/ Essentially free access to all the MS stack development tools you could possibly need for 3 years while you get your business up and running. Buy licenses for what you use at the end of the 3 years if it takes off, no loss if it doesn't (there used to be a $100 exit fee but they scrapped it). -Original Message- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 8:24 AM To: ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com Subject: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development Hello all, This question is one that I'm wrestling with right now. As I'm learning to develop with C# and PowerShell (I want my first project to be a PowerShell-based SSH client with some of the already-developed libraries for the protocol at its core), I see a lot of places where I could eventually join the .Net community as an open source developer (helping other projects and volunteering my time where other projects need a hand) and earn money through donations and through support
RE: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development
Katharine Have you looked at the Microsoft projects: ASP.NET, Entity Framework, Azure stuff .. all of these are open source (Apache Licensed) that take contributions from the community. And then there are the myriad of .NET projects in Github Codeplex that the community relies on: JSON.NET et al. Or you could help write kernel drivers for Linux/BSD for Hyper-V Azure... or create VHDs for Azure. The open source vs Microsoft argument is somewhat dated. And then there is the whole Xamarin/Mono world which is clamoring for great .NET/C# devs to get things going in Unix environments. I agree with what Stephen said: do what makes you happy. There is enough bad cr*p you have to deal with in this world so at least enjoy coding the community. And by community it is learning from others, teaching those who need help and contributing to a better world. My thoughts, anyway Nick (and yes, I do contribute: https://github.com/nickhodge/ :) ) From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 12:34 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development ah ok. Only reason you would hide your code is if it is a secret, as in part of your business intellectual property. An algorithm, or whatever that no one else has, and that sets you apart from your competition. It is important from a business perspective to keep what's yours as yours. Arguably, I guess. That would be situations where your income comes from your product and that people are prepared to pay for it because no one else can do what your product does. You can make money from selling your time, or a product, or for providing a service. When you say hiding your code I assume you mean closed source versus open source. It's not truly hidden unless you go to great lengths to obfuscate it. It's not a bad thing to want to protect your IP. Same as its not a bad thing to want to have open source code. Really depends what you are trying to do. As for making money from coding, yeah there are numerous ways. There's apps in market place, Ads, freeware, Shareware. In app purchases, and donations. Contracting and Permanent jobs for someone else. Write a product or service and charge people to use it. All part of the excitement and challenge of working as a developer. :) So yes I agree there's more than hiding your code and charging for your stuff. I do detect a hint of judgement or invalidation against hiding your code and charging for it. It's not right or wrong, but thinking makes it so. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 9:48 AM, Katherine Moss katherine.m...@gordon.edumailto:katherine.m...@gordon.edu wrote: I told you guys that I have no interest in starting a business with development (try web hosting instead?). . I'm more interested in having fun as a developer and joining with other developers who need no more reward than community values and doing stuff for the community; I feel that .net projects that are really good with the acception of web applications are truly lacking in the open Source world. And I don't mind paying for visual studio since for now I have a version that's a holdover from DreamSpark until I get strong enough to program out in the open, and hopefully by then I'll have a good job. Technology for me is a lifestyle, so I feel that if I'm doing one thing as a job as well as for a hobby (administration works in both places for me with my server, could be more in the future), then the other one I could do for the os community; there are tons of projects that need a hand out there. What I'm asking more or less, is whether you guys agree with the premise that there are more ways to make money developing other than hiding your code and charging for your stuff. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:25 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development I'd suggest to try each and see what sits best for you personally. :) Some projects won't earn any money but might be more fun because of the project itself. Other projects might earn you money but require more of your time, or might not be as interesting or challenging. It really varies. You might also find your situation requires you to spend more of your time on the money earning than the fun community based stuff. You have to eat after all. I consider myself lucky to have such a job that I enjoy. Many people don't. At some point you may find yourself as a developer by trade, and a developer for fun. Or perhaps some other hobby that's not computer related. Life is too short to be doing stuff you don't love. Outsource the rest! :)
RE: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development
I still don't really understand the question, but here are some thoughts: whether you guys agree with the premise that there are more ways to make money developing other than hiding your code and charging for your stuff You can certainly make money in ways other than hiding your code. Red Hat is a large, high profile, company that I'm sure you're aware of. There are numerous consulting companies out there that don't write any code at all (closed or open). So, there's plenty of ways to make money However, your next point charging for your stuff is something different again. You can charge for stuff (e.g. expertise) without hiding code. But if you don't want to charge for stuff then you're relying on people's goodwill (donations). Whilst that's a possible business model, I'm not sure that's it's a huge market. You're going to need something special to survive if that's your funding model. I told you guys that I have no interest in starting a business with development If you want to have money coming in the door you've got two options: a) Work for someone else as an employee b) Work for yourself (either by charging, or via donations). This requires a business plan. You may have no interest in being in business, but if you want to be self-employed you're going to have to get used to this Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 11:48 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development I told you guys that I have no interest in starting a business with development (try web hosting instead?). . I'm more interested in having fun as a developer and joining with other developers who need no more reward than community values and doing stuff for the community; I feel that .net projects that are really good with the acception of web applications are truly lacking in the open Source world. And I don't mind paying for visual studio since for now I have a version that's a holdover from DreamSpark until I get strong enough to program out in the open, and hopefully by then I'll have a good job. Technology for me is a lifestyle, so I feel that if I'm doing one thing as a job as well as for a hobby (administration works in both places for me with my server, could be more in the future), then the other one I could do for the os community; there are tons of projects that need a hand out there. What I'm asking more or less, is whether you guys agree with the premise that there are more ways to make money developing other than hiding your code and charging for your stuff. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:25 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development I'd suggest to try each and see what sits best for you personally. :) Some projects won't earn any money but might be more fun because of the project itself. Other projects might earn you money but require more of your time, or might not be as interesting or challenging. It really varies. You might also find your situation requires you to spend more of your time on the money earning than the fun community based stuff. You have to eat after all. I consider myself lucky to have such a job that I enjoy. Many people don't. At some point you may find yourself as a developer by trade, and a developer for fun. Or perhaps some other hobby that's not computer related. Life is too short to be doing stuff you don't love. Outsource the rest! :) On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Nathan Chere nathan.ch...@saiglobal.commailto:nathan.ch...@saiglobal.com wrote: This sounds like a job for BizSpark: http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/ Essentially free access to all the MS stack development tools you could possibly need for 3 years while you get your business up and running. Buy licenses for what you use at the end of the 3 years if it takes off, no loss if it doesn't (there used to be a $100 exit fee but they scrapped it). -Original Message- From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 8:24 AM To: ozdotnet@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com Subject: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development Hello all, This question is one that I'm wrestling with right now. As I'm learning to develop with C# and PowerShell (I want my first project to be a PowerShell-based SSH client with some of the already-developed libraries for the protocol at its core), I see a lot of places where I
Re: jQuery debugging
Debugging in Visual Studio with IE, you can set breakpoints etc and step through your code like C#. If you use Chrome to run your app, the F12 developer tools is WAY better for debugging your Javascript. I switch back and forth depending what I want to do, and must say I prefer debugging in Chrome. Its not in Visual Studio though. On the plus side you could debug your code deployed to test environment... (directly in your browser not in your IDE). Firefox with Firebug used to be the way to go but I don't like it as much as Chrome so don't use it at all. On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: I'm trying to create a single html page with jQuery inside to interactively calculate a price total based upon the settings of other controls. It's a classic sort of make you order page. Can I get a familiar debugging experience like I'm used into in Visual Studio while writing this page and scripts? I haven't written any JavaScript for years and I have no idea what's available to help me these days. There must be some people in this group writing plain JavaScript or jQuery in their html pages, so what do you do to keep productive? Greg K
Re: jQuery debugging
Chrome has by far the best debugging experience – very similar to how it works with .net – and its the same experience on each platform - (although osx makes you do unnatural acts with key combinations). I've found I've been writing code on the console to validate it, and its super easy for debugging ajax as well. Some very nice profiling things there as well – really lets you tune the rendering etc. I tried the tool chaining with VS and it was just too hard to make it work, although I do rate VS as the best JS editor (before sublime :) ) From: g...@mira.netmailto:g...@mira.net g...@mira.netmailto:g...@mira.net Reply-To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com Date: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 12:31 PM To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com Subject: jQuery debugging I'm trying to create a single html page with jQuery inside to interactively calculate a price total based upon the settings of other controls. It's a classic sort of make you order page. Can I get a familiar debugging experience like I'm used into in Visual Studio while writing this page and scripts? I haven't written any JavaScript for years and I have no idea what's available to help me these days. There must be some people in this group writing plain JavaScript or jQuery in their html pages, so what do you do to keep productive? Greg K
Re: jQuery debugging
Thank chaps, I'll have to look into Chrome, although I've never previously
allowed it only my work machines because it's like a virus, everything from
Google is like a virus.
I would like to mention that in the previous hour I've been cobbling
together my price-calc html page, I have needed to run a web search on how
to code each individual line: set and get a checkbox, detect textbox
changes, disable a control, set text in a span, etc. all absolutely
fundamental things you need to do. The inconsistency and patternless
quagmire is beyond human endurance. Did the inventors of JavaScript, jQuery
and DOM invent this stuff to hamper the progress of the human race? The
inventors of this mess should be hunted down if they're still alive and
strangled with their own entrails. Examples that need a search for each
line and I find absolutely no consistency at all (the first one is utterly
cryptic):
Is a checkbox checked -- $('chk1').is(':checked')
Set text in a span -- $('#span1').text(thevalue)
Set text in a textbox -- $('$text1').val(something)
Disable a control -- $('radio1').attr('disabled', show)
Even worse, most search results have screenloads of people arguing about
what bit of sample code is correct. There are sometimes 6 suggestions of
how to do a single thing, and 4 of them don't work. The official jQuery API
server is offline which makes my experience even better. I'm sure I'll feel
better once I can see some sort of pattern in the jQuery/DOM chaos.
Greg K
On 9 July 2013 13:04, Jorke Odolphi jo...@jorke.net wrote:
Chrome has by far the best debugging experience – very similar to how it
works with .net – and its the same experience on each platform - (although
osx makes you do unnatural acts with key combinations). I've found I've
been writing code on the console to validate it, and its super easy for
debugging ajax as well. Some very nice profiling things there as well –
really lets you tune the rendering etc.
I tried the tool chaining with VS and it was just too hard to make it
work, although I do rate VS as the best JS editor (before sublime :) )
From: g...@mira.net g...@mira.net
Reply-To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 12:31 PM
To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Subject: jQuery debugging
I'm trying to create a single html page with jQuery inside to
interactively calculate a price total based upon the settings of other
controls. It's a classic sort of make you order page.
Can I get a familiar debugging experience like I'm used into in Visual
Studio while writing this page and scripts? I haven't written any
JavaScript for years and I have no idea what's available to help me these
days. There must be some people in this group writing plain JavaScript or
jQuery in their html pages, so what do you do to keep productive?
Greg K
Re: jQuery debugging
The biggest help I found was adding the libraries at the top of the js file in
VS, like:
/// reference
path=https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.8.3/jquery.js; /
Then the intellisense appears and you can guess the right setting about 80% of
the time.
From: g...@mira.netmailto:g...@mira.net
g...@mira.netmailto:g...@mira.net
Reply-To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 1:38 PM
To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Subject: Re: jQuery debugging
Thank chaps, I'll have to look into Chrome, although I've never previously
allowed it only my work machines because it's like a virus, everything from
Google is like a virus.
I would like to mention that in the previous hour I've been cobbling together
my price-calc html page, I have needed to run a web search on how to code each
individual line: set and get a checkbox, detect textbox changes, disable a
control, set text in a span, etc. all absolutely fundamental things you need to
do. The inconsistency and patternless quagmire is beyond human endurance. Did
the inventors of JavaScript, jQuery and DOM invent this stuff to hamper the
progress of the human race? The inventors of this mess should be hunted down if
they're still alive and strangled with their own entrails. Examples that need a
search for each line and I find absolutely no consistency at all (the first one
is utterly cryptic):
Is a checkbox checked -- $('chk1').is(':checked')
Set text in a span -- $('#span1').text(thevalue)
Set text in a textbox -- $('$text1').val(something)
Disable a control -- $('radio1').attr('disabled', show)
Even worse, most search results have screenloads of people arguing about what
bit of sample code is correct. There are sometimes 6 suggestions of how to do a
single thing, and 4 of them don't work. The official jQuery API server is
offline which makes my experience even better. I'm sure I'll feel better once I
can see some sort of pattern in the jQuery/DOM chaos.
Greg K
On 9 July 2013 13:04, Jorke Odolphi jo...@jorke.netmailto:jo...@jorke.net
wrote:
Chrome has by far the best debugging experience – very similar to how it works
with .net – and its the same experience on each platform - (although osx makes
you do unnatural acts with key combinations). I've found I've been writing code
on the console to validate it, and its super easy for debugging ajax as well.
Some very nice profiling things there as well – really lets you tune the
rendering etc.
I tried the tool chaining with VS and it was just too hard to make it work,
although I do rate VS as the best JS editor (before sublime :) )
From: g...@mira.netmailto:g...@mira.net
g...@mira.netmailto:g...@mira.net
Reply-To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 12:31 PM
To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Subject: jQuery debugging
I'm trying to create a single html page with jQuery inside to interactively
calculate a price total based upon the settings of other controls. It's a
classic sort of make you order page.
Can I get a familiar debugging experience like I'm used into in Visual Studio
while writing this page and scripts? I haven't written any JavaScript for years
and I have no idea what's available to help me these days. There must be some
people in this group writing plain JavaScript or jQuery in their html pages, so
what do you do to keep productive?
Greg K
Re: jQuery debugging
My brother works on the chrome team. Are you saying there is something
improper about the work he is doing?
On 9 Jul 2013 13:38, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote:
Thank chaps, I'll have to look into Chrome, although I've never previously
allowed it only my work machines because it's like a virus, everything from
Google is like a virus.
I would like to mention that in the previous hour I've been cobbling
together my price-calc html page, I have needed to run a web search on how
to code each individual line: set and get a checkbox, detect textbox
changes, disable a control, set text in a span, etc. all absolutely
fundamental things you need to do. The inconsistency and patternless
quagmire is beyond human endurance. Did the inventors of JavaScript, jQuery
and DOM invent this stuff to hamper the progress of the human race? The
inventors of this mess should be hunted down if they're still alive and
strangled with their own entrails. Examples that need a search for each
line and I find absolutely no consistency at all (the first one is utterly
cryptic):
Is a checkbox checked -- $('chk1').is(':checked')
Set text in a span -- $('#span1').text(thevalue)
Set text in a textbox -- $('$text1').val(something)
Disable a control -- $('radio1').attr('disabled', show)
Even worse, most search results have screenloads of people arguing about
what bit of sample code is correct. There are sometimes 6 suggestions of
how to do a single thing, and 4 of them don't work. The official jQuery API
server is offline which makes my experience even better. I'm sure I'll feel
better once I can see some sort of pattern in the jQuery/DOM chaos.
Greg K
On 9 July 2013 13:04, Jorke Odolphi jo...@jorke.net wrote:
Chrome has by far the best debugging experience – very similar to how
it works with .net – and its the same experience on each platform -
(although osx makes you do unnatural acts with key combinations). I've
found I've been writing code on the console to validate it, and its super
easy for debugging ajax as well. Some very nice profiling things there as
well – really lets you tune the rendering etc.
I tried the tool chaining with VS and it was just too hard to make it
work, although I do rate VS as the best JS editor (before sublime :) )
From: g...@mira.net g...@mira.net
Reply-To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 12:31 PM
To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Subject: jQuery debugging
I'm trying to create a single html page with jQuery inside to
interactively calculate a price total based upon the settings of other
controls. It's a classic sort of make you order page.
Can I get a familiar debugging experience like I'm used into in Visual
Studio while writing this page and scripts? I haven't written any
JavaScript for years and I have no idea what's available to help me these
days. There must be some people in this group writing plain JavaScript or
jQuery in their html pages, so what do you do to keep productive?
Greg K
Re: jQuery debugging
My brother works on the chrome team. Are you saying there is something improper about the work he is doing? If he's responsible for JavaScript, the DOM or jQuery then it's his roast intestines for dinner ;-) -- Greg
Re: jQuery debugging
Learn to love the web and javascript as there's a hidden beauty once you've
mastered it.
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:21 PM, Stephen Price step...@perthprojects.comwrote:
My brother also works at Google. Are you saying he is a virus writer?
One could argue the same about Microsoft. And Yahoo. And Facebook. And
Insert large organisation. Perhaps you are against large corporations,
and capitalism? Jealousy?
It sounds like you are frustrated with things that don't work as you
expect them. I see a number of alternatives for you.
1. Don't use them. Write it all yourself.
Oh, what's that? it would take too long? Hmm.. quite a dilemma you have
there... Standing on the shoulders of giants, using the fantastic work that
fellow humans have created (with the mix of quality that goes with said
complex systems) is a double edged sword. Yes, you get the bugs, but you
also get the hundreds and thousands of man hours that went into it. Choose.
2. Retire.
If you long for the simple days of when you could code from a book on the
shelf, and that book contained all there was to know, then you are out of
luck. Those days are gone. They are inventing this stuff faster than anyone
can learn it all. Almost daily, I turn and find some new tool or framework
or something exciting and new and shiny. And the next day something I was
using is dead and buried. (I'm looking at you Silverlight).
3. Suck it up and roll with the punches.
This job is fun and exciting, and often at times, frustrating. But I love
it and wouldn't give it up for anything else. I don't know it all, and
never will. I love learning new things and strive for personal improvement.
Writing code is becoming more expensive because it is becoming more
complicated. Embrace change and do the best you can. Flower where you are
planted. (my favourite motto). Don't forget to stop and eat the roses. :)
On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Joseph Cooney joseph.coo...@gmail.comwrote:
My brother works on the chrome team. Are you saying there is something
improper about the work he is doing?
On 9 Jul 2013 13:38, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote:
Thank chaps, I'll have to look into Chrome, although I've never
previously allowed it only my work machines because it's like a virus,
everything from Google is like a virus.
I would like to mention that in the previous hour I've been cobbling
together my price-calc html page, I have needed to run a web search on how
to code each individual line: set and get a checkbox, detect textbox
changes, disable a control, set text in a span, etc. all absolutely
fundamental things you need to do. The inconsistency and patternless
quagmire is beyond human endurance. Did the inventors of JavaScript, jQuery
and DOM invent this stuff to hamper the progress of the human race? The
inventors of this mess should be hunted down if they're still alive and
strangled with their own entrails. Examples that need a search for each
line and I find absolutely no consistency at all (the first one is utterly
cryptic):
Is a checkbox checked -- $('chk1').is(':checked')
Set text in a span -- $('#span1').text(thevalue)
Set text in a textbox -- $('$text1').val(something)
Disable a control -- $('radio1').attr('disabled', show)
Even worse, most search results have screenloads of people arguing about
what bit of sample code is correct. There are sometimes 6 suggestions of
how to do a single thing, and 4 of them don't work. The official jQuery API
server is offline which makes my experience even better. I'm sure I'll feel
better once I can see some sort of pattern in the jQuery/DOM chaos.
Greg K
On 9 July 2013 13:04, Jorke Odolphi jo...@jorke.net wrote:
Chrome has by far the best debugging experience – very similar to how
it works with .net – and its the same experience on each platform -
(although osx makes you do unnatural acts with key combinations). I've
found I've been writing code on the console to validate it, and its super
easy for debugging ajax as well. Some very nice profiling things there as
well – really lets you tune the rendering etc.
I tried the tool chaining with VS and it was just too hard to make it
work, although I do rate VS as the best JS editor (before sublime :) )
From: g...@mira.net g...@mira.net
Reply-To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Date: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 12:31 PM
To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com
Subject: jQuery debugging
I'm trying to create a single html page with jQuery inside to
interactively calculate a price total based upon the settings of other
controls. It's a classic sort of make you order page.
Can I get a familiar debugging experience like I'm used into in Visual
Studio while writing this page and scripts? I haven't written any
JavaScript for years and I have no idea what's available to help me these
days. There must be some people in this group writing plain JavaScript or
jQuery in their html pages, so what do you do to keep productive?
Re: jQuery debugging
Stephen, you've nailed almost everything that giving me the irrates: Things don't work as I expect. I don't want to write it myself. There are lots of bugs. You can't just learn something from a book. People are inventing stuff too fast (without coordination or quality control). The shiny thing of today is buried tomorrow. Writing code is more expensive. Things are more complicated. I can't afford to retire. I've been rolling with the punches since things got bad (about 6 years ago I reckon). I should point out that I come from a long background in computing/IT where things worked, things were documented, standards were adhered to, there was all-around consistency and order ruled. Where are headed now? Perhaps I'm being sentimental or too demanding. Greg
Re: jQuery debugging
The beauty of Javascript is well hidden. Touché! -- Greg
Re: jQuery debugging
Reminds me of a saying, Unix is user friendly. It's just selective on who its friends are. :) On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: The beauty of Javascript is well hidden. Touché! -- Greg
Re: jQuery debugging
Things don't work as I expect. Works fine for me :) I don't want to write it myself. There are lots of bugs. How is there bugs? You can't just learn something from a book. Kinda of a crappy way to learn anyway, slow and dated, learn from github that's better. People are inventing stuff too fast (without coordination or quality control). I think people are experimenting fast and throwing out what doesn't work The shiny thing of today is buried tomorrow. that happens more in proprietary software not the open web Writing code is more expensive. writing code does not cost money ;) Things are more complicated. Oh come'on what about MFC or assembly I can't afford to retire. Maybe we should have been bankers? On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: Stephen, you've nailed almost everything that giving me the irrates: Things don't work as I expect. I don't want to write it myself. There are lots of bugs. You can't just learn something from a book. People are inventing stuff too fast (without coordination or quality control). The shiny thing of today is buried tomorrow. Writing code is more expensive. Things are more complicated. I can't afford to retire. I've been rolling with the punches since things got bad (about 6 years ago I reckon). I should point out that I come from a long background in computing/IT where things worked, things were documented, standards were adhered to, there was all-around consistency and order ruled. Where are headed now? Perhaps I'm being sentimental or too demanding. Greg
RE: jQuery debugging
Spent most of another life working with it. I came the conclusion that the manual was easy to read and clear as long as you’d read the entire manual first :) Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile│ +61 3 8676 4913 fax SQL Down Under | Web: http://www.sqldownunder.com/ www.sqldownunder.com From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 2:53 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: jQuery debugging Reminds me of a saying, Unix is user friendly. It's just selective on who its friends are. :) On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net mailto:g...@mira.net wrote: The beauty of Javascript is well hidden. Touché! -- Greg
Re: jQuery debugging
It's easy to love the lovable things about something (or someone) True love is acceptance. Love the things that are hard to love and you will be happy in your relationship with your coding. If something isn't working for you, change it. If you can't change it, then change how you think of it. I love mixing Ontology into code. :) On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Greg Keogh g...@mira.net wrote: Stephen, you've nailed almost everything that giving me the irrates: Things don't work as I expect. I don't want to write it myself. There are lots of bugs. You can't just learn something from a book. People are inventing stuff too fast (without coordination or quality control). The shiny thing of today is buried tomorrow. Writing code is more expensive. Things are more complicated. I can't afford to retire. I've been rolling with the punches since things got bad (about 6 years ago I reckon). I should point out that I come from a long background in computing/IT where things worked, things were documented, standards were adhered to, there was all-around consistency and order ruled. Where are headed now? Perhaps I'm being sentimental or too demanding. Greg
RE: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development
Key thing if you are contributing to Open source having a not-so-open source day job: getting clearance from your employer. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 2:51 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development I still think that working for someone else is more for me. Thanks for your thoughts though, guys. I really appreciate them, and watch out for Project Jenks on CodePlex. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Ken Schaefer Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 10:48 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development I still don't really understand the question, but here are some thoughts: whether you guys agree with the premise that there are more ways to make money developing other than hiding your code and charging for your stuff You can certainly make money in ways other than hiding your code. Red Hat is a large, high profile, company that I'm sure you're aware of. There are numerous consulting companies out there that don't write any code at all (closed or open). So, there's plenty of ways to make money However, your next point charging for your stuff is something different again. You can charge for stuff (e.g. expertise) without hiding code. But if you don't want to charge for stuff then you're relying on people's goodwill (donations). Whilst that's a possible business model, I'm not sure that's it's a huge market. You're going to need something special to survive if that's your funding model. I told you guys that I have no interest in starting a business with development If you want to have money coming in the door you've got two options: a) Work for someone else as an employee b) Work for yourself (either by charging, or via donations). This requires a business plan. You may have no interest in being in business, but if you want to be self-employed you're going to have to get used to this Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Moss Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 11:48 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: RE: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development I told you guys that I have no interest in starting a business with development (try web hosting instead?). . I'm more interested in having fun as a developer and joining with other developers who need no more reward than community values and doing stuff for the community; I feel that .net projects that are really good with the acception of web applications are truly lacking in the open Source world. And I don't mind paying for visual studio since for now I have a version that's a holdover from DreamSpark until I get strong enough to program out in the open, and hopefully by then I'll have a good job. Technology for me is a lifestyle, so I feel that if I'm doing one thing as a job as well as for a hobby (administration works in both places for me with my server, could be more in the future), then the other one I could do for the os community; there are tons of projects that need a hand out there. What I'm asking more or less, is whether you guys agree with the premise that there are more ways to make money developing other than hiding your code and charging for your stuff. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.commailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Price Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 9:25 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: the Open Source community for .NET developers: the value of joining and developing OS VS. for-proffit development I'd suggest to try each and see what sits best for you personally. :) Some projects won't earn any money but might be more fun because of the project itself. Other projects might earn you money but require more of your time, or might not be as interesting or challenging. It really varies. You might also find your situation requires you to spend more of your time on the money earning than the fun community based stuff. You have to eat after all. I consider myself lucky to have such a job that I enjoy. Many people don't. At some point you may find yourself as a developer by trade, and a developer for fun. Or perhaps some other hobby that's not computer related. Life is too short to be doing stuff you don't love. Outsource the rest! :) On Tue, Jul 9, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Nathan Chere nathan.ch...@saiglobal.commailto:nathan.ch...@saiglobal.com wrote: This sounds like a job for BizSpark: http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/ Essentially free access to all the MS stack development tools you
Re: jQuery debugging
Things don't work as I expect. Works fine for me :) You're kidding. I've already told my family that my headstone will be engraved with Everything f***ing doesn't work. Greg
Re: jQuery debugging
Stephen, you're turning into some sort of Khalil Gibranhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/k/khalil_gibran.htmlof the computer world -- Greg
Re: jQuery debugging
On 9 July 2013 14:57, Stephen Price step...@perthprojects.com wrote: If something isn't working for you, change it. If you can't change it, then change how you think of it. The first part is what makes engineers, second is path to the enlightenment. Cheers
Re: jQuery debugging
I was discussing reading the manuals with some friends recently when I showed them some books I had kept from the 70s and 80s. Some of them got into IT by doodling with Turbo Pascal and making some stuff without reading any manuals, then they got the programming bug and ran with it, as I did earlier with punch cards! Unlike my friends, I tended to want to read the docs first before diving in and bumbling around. I like to go in prepared and as a result I'm an inveterate manual reader even these days. Some people prefer to futz and learn that way. People seem quite divided on this. I'd like to try parachuting, but rather than just throw a parachute on and jump out of plane to see how it goes, I'd like to read the manual first. Greg
Re: jQuery debugging
Tried pycharm? It's excellent far better than visual studio for js and comes from jet brains so can get the resharper visual studio key bindings for shortcuts. Jet brains have a sale every now and then so worth grabbing next time they do. On 9 Jul 2013 04:04, Jorke Odolphi jo...@jorke.net wrote: Chrome has by far the best debugging experience – very similar to how it works with .net – and its the same experience on each platform - (although osx makes you do unnatural acts with key combinations). I've found I've been writing code on the console to validate it, and its super easy for debugging ajax as well. Some very nice profiling things there as well – really lets you tune the rendering etc. I tried the tool chaining with VS and it was just too hard to make it work, although I do rate VS as the best JS editor (before sublime :) ) From: g...@mira.net g...@mira.net Reply-To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com Date: Tuesday, 9 July 2013 12:31 PM To: ozDotNet ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com Subject: jQuery debugging I'm trying to create a single html page with jQuery inside to interactively calculate a price total based upon the settings of other controls. It's a classic sort of make you order page. Can I get a familiar debugging experience like I'm used into in Visual Studio while writing this page and scripts? I haven't written any JavaScript for years and I have no idea what's available to help me these days. There must be some people in this group writing plain JavaScript or jQuery in their html pages, so what do you do to keep productive? Greg K
