RE: [ozmidwifery] Baby whisperers...

[Dean & Jo]

The sleep thing is always an interesting
topic true. I personally did the controlled crying with my first as he didn’t
sleep at 8 months until a bit over 14 months.  As a new born I did the ‘right
thing’ and put him in a cot in another room and my hubby would get up and
get Bailey for me when he woke for feeds – I had a shocking cs that
resulted in 3 months worth of postpartum bleeding, wound infections and wound
bursting so getting up was more agony than anything else!

 

My hubby went away for a week when I was
pregnant with my second and I was so lonely in
bed I went and got my then 14month old and we slept in the bed together and had
such a wonderful relaxing sleep even though I had that half awake mother thing
going as you do when you co-sleep.  I decided that as my babies were ‘hugged’
by me for nine months, and that I as an adult did not like sleeping alone, why
should I make my babies do it?  My
next two children slept in our bed from the day they were born until the day
they said “I want to sleep in my own bed tonight”.  We had a bed for them that they slept in
during the day, and so the transition was not that traumatic ….. for them!

 

I was saying to a fellow lister on Saturday night that now I
wake my three and half year old Samuel and bring him into bed with me!!   

 

Anyway, from my experience, I found the
sleep training traumatic for me and for them and found that with more support
from hubby, friends, family, even getting a baby sitter to watch bub whilst I
slept during the day, actually going to bed early and having a nap when the
kids did instead of being super mum and getting six weeks worth of housework
done in a short period of time whilst kids slept, and also feeding my babies
when they wanted was the key to a happy relaxed mother, wife and woman.  I am a huge fan of what pinky writes
about and I give her books to new parents as frequently as possible to help
them avoid the trauma that requires people to elect sleep training. 

 

As I do with women’s birth choices,
I never judge, but I sincerely hope that women actually look holistically
before they turn to sleep doctors or such. 
Like those who elect cs, it is what is best for them, as long as they
are fully informed of the risks, benefits and alternative options.  When I see Child and Youth Health
advertise on TV saying the first 18 months of your babies life is crucial in
cognitive development and bubs require love, trust and cuddles…I think “well
my first is screwed because of what they told me to do!”  

 

Thanks for letting me share.

Jo

 

-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Barb Glare
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004
6:53 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Baby
whisperers...

 



Hi,





 





This topic always stimulates heated
debate (which I quite enjoy)





 





Katrina, I see it quite differently
to you.  I took my first son to a sleep "place"  11 yrs
ago.  He was my first baby.  I went back to work after 6 weeks. 
He fed frequently day and night, wasn't much of a weight gainer.  I was
exhausted. Initially I thought the regime was great (though he never did learn
to sleep)  But I got some rest and time out, which I badly needed. 
However, on reflection, it was terrible.  It further undermined my
confidence.  Especially since we "failed".  And yes, I was
persistant and consistent. For the next 5 months, I never picked him up at
night.  I never fed him at night.  We rocked him in his cot til he
went to sleep. Until when he was 10mnths old and I was still exhausted (from
all that rocking, screaming and settling) a kind friend and ABA counsellor
suggested that I'd persisted long enough and pointed out that many, many
mothers just put the baby in bed with them and get on with it.





 





Today I have 4 fabulous children and
work with mothers nearly every day in my paid work or my volunteer work. 
The sleep programs work for some.  But I see many many more mothers who
are doing a fabulous job with their children and yet have had their confidence
undermined by societal expectations and sleep programs.  Sadly I see
babies (one last week) who was seriously underweight and the mother at risk of
losing her breastfeeding relationship (which she very much valued) because
she followed such a routine from birth. 





 





There is plenty of evidence that not
responding to the needs of a baby and letting them cry does cause damage. 
I think I posted an article to ozmidwfery last week (if not, I can)  But
mothering is a tough gig, and it's hard to meet your babies needs when you are
not getting enough care and support yourself, and I guess this is our
challenge.





 





The rest of my children have slept
with me until they moved to their own rooms, which 2 of them have done. 
My lovely baby sleeps wrapped in my arms.  Last week I was appalled when I
mentioned to an aquaintance that Guan slept with us and he asked me if
"the depar

Re: [ozmidwifery] Re: first breastfeed

[Mary Murphy]

Joy Cocks wrote"and we expect 1 wet nappy and 1 meconium stool in that
time."  What do you do if they don't pass urine or mec  and how can one be
sure that the urine it isn't mixed up with the mec?? In homebirth, the
parents or I often don't see firm evidence of P/U until after 24hrs.  I
don't know if the babies don't urinate or if it is too difficult to tell.
Also it is hard to know whether they P/U'd in the water after they are
waterbirthed.  Got any tips?  If the baby is well, then I don't worry about
it, just keep looking for the evidence.  cheers, MM

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[ozmidwifery] Effective care

[Dean & Jo]

Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge Testing








I agree with JC about Effective care being
a bible; but has anyone read the induction section recently!?  It is very worrisome!  I have a few women who are terrified of
inductions due to the increased risk in cs, instrumental births and the harsh
labour experience and so I read EC and put it down thinking “well they
missed out quite a bit in that section!”  

Perhaps I am just a picky b*%ch Ha ha….

 

I am going outside to dig in my
garden  W
H!!  The rain has
stopped, the sun is out and the ground is begging to be tendered to!!

 

Love to all!

Jo 

 

-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Justine Caines
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004
10:30 PM
To: OzMid List
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Glucose
Challenge Testing

 

Hi Abby

You should look at Effective Care in Pregnancy and Childbirth by Enkin et al.

The evidence based bible and available in full on line at www.maternitywise.org

The 2nd Ed slammed the need for GTT at all.  I think they were a little
softer in the 3rd ed.

Check it out

Kind regards

Justine 








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Re: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge Testing

[Marilyn Kleidon]

Apologies to sally etc. I read "glucose tolerance 
test"  and not "glucose challenge test". Your  (at least mine) eye 
sees what it expects to see.
It is my understanding that the "glucose challenge 
test" is even more debatable.
 
marilyn

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Abby and Toby 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:21 
  AM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge 
  Testing
  
  Hi,
   
  Couple of questions about this-
   
  1) Is this application normal or necessary, the 
  fasting for so long I mean - "My midwife wants me to have a glucose challenge test that involves 12 
  hours fasting then a blood test, drinking a sugary drink, 1hr later another 
  blood test, drinking another drink and then another hour later another blood 
  test."
   
  I have never 
  heard of someone having to fast for that long beforehand?? Seems like a 
  strange thing to ask a pregnant woman to do. Any insight would be 
  great.
   
  2) Does anyone have any info, links, research etc about the accuracy, 
  relevance/importance, evidence etc for the glucose test?
   
  Thanks in advance.
  Love Abby
   
  (P.S. Still working on the `evidence` about controlled crying, 
  nutrition etc)  

Re: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge Testing

[Denise Hynd]

Go to www.hencigoer.com
 
Denise Hynd
 
"Let us support one another, not just in philosophy but in action, for the 
sake of freedom for all women to choose exactly how and by whom, if by anyone, 
our bodies will be handled."
 
— Linda Hes

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Abby and Toby 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 7:21 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge 
  Testing
  
  Hi,
   
  Couple of questions about this-
   
  1) Is this application normal or necessary, the 
  fasting for so long I mean - "My midwife wants me to have a glucose challenge test that involves 12 
  hours fasting then a blood test, drinking a sugary drink, 1hr later another 
  blood test, drinking another drink and then another hour later another blood 
  test."
   
  I have never 
  heard of someone having to fast for that long beforehand?? Seems like a 
  strange thing to ask a pregnant woman to do. Any insight would be 
  great.
   
  2) Does anyone have any info, links, research etc about the accuracy, 
  relevance/importance, evidence etc for the glucose test?
   
  Thanks in advance.
  Love Abby
   
  (P.S. Still working on the `evidence` about controlled crying, 
  nutrition etc)  

Re: [ozmidwifery] Baby whisperers...

[Barb Glare]

Hi,
 
This topic always stimulates heated debate (which I 
quite enjoy)
 
Katrina, I see it quite differently to you.  I 
took my first son to a sleep "place"  11 yrs ago.  He was my first 
baby.  I went back to work after 6 weeks.  He fed frequently day and 
night, wasn't much of a weight gainer.  I was exhausted. Initially I 
thought the regime was great (though he never did learn to sleep)  But I 
got some rest and time out, which I badly needed.  However, on reflection, 
it was terrible.  It further undermined my confidence.  Especially 
since we "failed".  And yes, I was persistant and consistent. For the next 
5 months, I never picked him up at night.  I never fed him at night.  
We rocked him in his cot til he went to sleep. Until when he was 10mnths old and 
I was still exhausted (from all that rocking, screaming and settling) a kind 
friend and ABA counsellor suggested that I'd persisted long enough and pointed 
out that many, many mothers just put the baby in bed with them and get on with 
it.
 
Today I have 4 fabulous children and work with 
mothers nearly every day in my paid work or my volunteer work.  The sleep 
programs work for some.  But I see many many more mothers who are doing a 
fabulous job with their children and yet have had their confidence undermined by 
societal expectations and sleep programs.  Sadly I see babies (one last 
week) who was seriously underweight and the mother at risk of losing her 
breastfeeding relationship (which she very much valued) because she 
followed such a routine from birth. 
 
There is plenty of evidence that not responding to 
the needs of a baby and letting them cry does cause damage.  I think I 
posted an article to ozmidwfery last week (if not, I can)  But mothering is 
a tough gig, and it's hard to meet your babies needs when you are not getting 
enough care and support yourself, and I guess this is our 
challenge.
 
The rest of my children have slept with me until 
they moved to their own rooms, which 2 of them have done.  My lovely baby 
sleeps wrapped in my arms.  Last week I was appalled when I mentioned to an 
aquaintance that Guan slept with us and he asked me if "the department" (of 
human services) knew about that. (she's adopted and we have to be "followed up) 
Why would they?  Most mothers in the world sleep with their 
babies.
It's true that society functions very differently 
to the way it has done, but do babies?  They have the same physiology, 
biology and psychology that they always did.
 
Love, Barb

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Ceri 
  & Katrina 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 9:16 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Baby 
  whisperers...
  Hi AbbyI have personally been to a family care cottage 
  (similar to Tresillian from what I understand) with both my children. As far 
  as I am concerned they were wonderful. I also have friends that have been down 
  to Tresillian and have come back different people due to the sleep they are 
  now getting.
  
  What about the studies 
showing that babies still get at least 25% of their nutrition at night time 
if they need it? What studies? Where 
  are they? I would love to read them. As a middy student we are being taought 
  to base our practice on evidence - would love more info on them.
  What about their tiny 
tummies? What about them? If they 
  are hungry they will wake... otherwise they wake up ravenous in the morning 
  for a huge feed - ie break fast!
  What about the emotional 
and physical impacts on the child? 
  And these are? Again where is the 
  evidence?
  What about the fact that we 
know so much more about the psychological effects that the Tresillian method 
has on the child?? We do? Again how 
  and where is it, would love to be more informed.
  What about the fact that 
this child has had her whole life rearranged and needs her mummy and daddy 
to nurture and care for her not take her to a strange place and have 
strangers `care` for her.What 
  about the parents sanity and inability to function well due to lack of sleep. 
  I admit that babies do wake up and not all will sleep though from a young age. 
  But a child that is constantly up and causing havoc as everyone else in the 
  house is up and not sleeping. That's a recipe for disaster. The whole basis of 
  Tresillian I thought, was to give the parents strategies to help their child, 
  not to be used as a babysitting service. I think Abby that society 
  itself functions very differently than it used to. Years ago you would have 
  countless amounts of friends and family that were close and supportive of you, 
  often there to help out with changing family situations and parenting. Now 
  though families can be living on opposite sides of the world, and people do 
  not have the close knit support and encouragement that is often needed. Hence 
  places like Tresiliian offer a community service for women and their families. 
  Un

[ozmidwifery] Re: first breastfeed

[Joy Cocks]

I work in a very small hospital with "low risk" women giving birth there.
In the healthy neonate, I am personally not concerned if they don't feed for
24 hours but, of course, in that time they should be given lots of
opportunities to feed, skin to skin (with mother and babe stripped to the
waist) - as someone said, so as not to miss an opportunity.  Even better if
you can restrict visitors during this time, but easier said than done, I
know!  Provided the baby remains alert when awake and healthy looking I am
not concerned.  The last thing I would want to do is give the baby a bad
experience with feeding by trying to force it to breastfeed or put something
nasty down it's throat, such as a suction or gavage tube.  This then often
makes the baby fight the next thing that is put into it's mouth.
Of course, interventions in labour can have an impact on how soon the baby
wants to feed too.
The expected infant intake on Day 1 is 5 -100 mils colostrum (average 30
mils) and we expect 1 wet nappy and 1 meconium stool in that time.
Hope this helps.
Joy

Joy Cocks RN (Div 1) RM CBE IBCLC
BRIGHT Vic 3741
email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[JoFromOz]

Sally Westbury wrote:
"When saying it is a baby friendly policy, it pretty much is.  BSLs are 
only done if no EBM is obtained 3 hourly.  It's just that some midwives 
can't bring themselves to  not give a baby anything, and paeds I don't 
think are ever breastfeeding/baby friendly." JofromOz

understood..i know you are a fantastic midwife and advocate. it just is
so far from the gentle birth practice of homebirth that is still shocks
me. It is good to be reminded.
Sally Westbury
Homebirth Midwife
 

And people wonder why I have chosen a homebirth? ;)
Jo
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RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Sally Westbury]

"When saying it is a baby friendly policy, it pretty much is.  BSLs are 
only done if no EBM is obtained 3 hourly.  It's just that some midwives 
can't bring themselves to  not give a baby anything, and paeds I don't 
think are ever breastfeeding/baby friendly." JofromOz

understood..i know you are a fantastic midwife and advocate. it just is
so far from the gentle birth practice of homebirth that is still shocks
me. It is good to be reminded.

Sally Westbury
Homebirth Midwife
 
"It takes courage to remain a true advocate for women, challenging
authority and sacrificing social and professional acceptance. It takes
courage for a woman to choose a caregiver who will truly advocate for
and empower her."-Judy Slome Cohain



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Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[JoFromOz]

Mary Murphy wrote:
Jo  wrote: "Often if the baby is mucusy (causing reluctance to feed) they
will  unfortunately likely be given a stomach washout..."  I thought that
the mucous contained glucose and that was why the 'mucousy babies' didn't
feel hungry.  I would be happy to have this clarified if I am wrong.  I
don't know where the information came from, it is just in my head.   MM
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No matter how many times I tell people this when they talk about giving 
a gastric washout, the paeds don't believe me.  I have had paeds 
prescribe a washout then give 1ml of Mylanta!!  I refuse.

When saying it is a baby friendly policy, it pretty much is.  BSLs are 
only done if no EBM is obtained 3 hourly.  It's just that some midwives 
can't bring themselves to  not give a baby anything, and paeds I don't 
think are ever breastfeeding/baby friendly.

Jo
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge Testing

[Marilyn Kleidon]

Hi Abby: 
 
Firstly the other links provided should give you a 
good idea of the evidence around this test. Logistically though, if the mother 
wants to go ahead and have the test, the fasting should be no more than the 
normal overnight "fasting" in other words have a good meal around 8pm and 
schedule the first or fasting blood draw for 8am, then have the drink loaded 
with glucose and the further blood draws in 1 hr and 2 hrs. There should not 
be  more than one sugary drink and it should be after the fasting blood 
draw. Whether or not to have this test is clearly debatable and despite its 
prevalence not evidence based at least not as a sole indicator for gestational 
diabetes, or risks of macrosomia, neonatal hypoglycemia etc..  Also 
the effect of the test is debatable that is does it make any difference or 
improve outcomes? Enkin et al. makes good reading.  Some people prefer to 
do random blood sugars using a glucometer, some in the morning before breakfast 
and others 2 hrs after a meal, the kind of "monitoring" a type 2 diabetic person 
 might do when stabilising their blood sugars, and only proceed to a GTT if 
the results indicate. This is also briefly touched on by Enkin et al and 
not supported well by evidence either.
 
cheers
 
marilyn

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Abby and Toby 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 3:21 
  AM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge 
  Testing
  
  Hi,
   
  Couple of questions about this-
   
  1) Is this application normal or necessary, the 
  fasting for so long I mean - "My midwife wants me to have a glucose challenge test that involves 12 
  hours fasting then a blood test, drinking a sugary drink, 1hr later another 
  blood test, drinking another drink and then another hour later another blood 
  test."
   
  I have never 
  heard of someone having to fast for that long beforehand?? Seems like a 
  strange thing to ask a pregnant woman to do. Any insight would be 
  great.
   
  2) Does anyone have any info, links, research etc about the accuracy, 
  relevance/importance, evidence etc for the glucose test?
   
  Thanks in advance.
  Love Abby
   
  (P.S. Still working on the `evidence` about controlled crying, 
  nutrition etc)  

Re: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge Testing

[sally]

PS a glucose challeng is differnet from the glucoes 
tolerance test
 
Sally

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Abby and Toby 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 10:21 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge 
  Testing
  
  Hi,
   
  Couple of questions about this-
   
  1) Is this application normal or necessary, the 
  fasting for so long I mean - "My midwife wants me to have a glucose challenge test that involves 12 
  hours fasting then a blood test, drinking a sugary drink, 1hr later another 
  blood test, drinking another drink and then another hour later another blood 
  test."
   
  I have never 
  heard of someone having to fast for that long beforehand?? Seems like a 
  strange thing to ask a pregnant woman to do. Any insight would be 
  great.
   
  2) Does anyone have any info, links, research etc about the accuracy, 
  relevance/importance, evidence etc for the glucose test?
   
  Thanks in advance.
  Love Abby
   
  (P.S. Still working on the `evidence` about controlled crying, 
  nutrition etc)  

Re: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge Testing

[sally]

The whole point of the glucose challenge is for it 
to be a random glucose sample. No fasting before hand, only nothing for the hour 
after the drink has been taken.
 
Sally

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Abby and Toby 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 10:21 
  PM
  Subject: [ozmidwifery] Glucose Challenge 
  Testing
  
  Hi,
   
  Couple of questions about this-
   
  1) Is this application normal or necessary, the 
  fasting for so long I mean - "My midwife wants me to have a glucose challenge test that involves 12 
  hours fasting then a blood test, drinking a sugary drink, 1hr later another 
  blood test, drinking another drink and then another hour later another blood 
  test."
   
  I have never 
  heard of someone having to fast for that long beforehand?? Seems like a 
  strange thing to ask a pregnant woman to do. Any insight would be 
  great.
   
  2) Does anyone have any info, links, research etc about the accuracy, 
  relevance/importance, evidence etc for the glucose test?
   
  Thanks in advance.
  Love Abby
   
  (P.S. Still working on the `evidence` about controlled crying, 
  nutrition etc)  

[ozmidwifery] Uni SA B(Mid) problems

[Sue Cookson]

Hi all,
Just thought I'd update those others of you who may have enrolled to do 
the external BMid course through Uni SA. I guess I'd been feeling that 
there was something uncertain around the course, and today I received a 
letter from the uni saying that in future, all clinical placements for 
this course have to happen in SA (whereas to date students have found 
placements wherever they've resided).
Reason cited was "due to pressure on clinical places from within those 
states" (any state apart from SA)... makes you laugh since only Vic and 
SA have BMid programs. I know the huge Base Hospital near me (1300 
births p/a) only has 2 places for midwifery students which are allocated 
to the students from Sturt Uni at Wagga Wagga. Oh dear.
I'm yet to determine whether the clinical placements can be done in 
blocks, in which case one could fly to SA for a few weeks here and there 
as required .. just another hurdle on the pathway...

Any of you currently doing this course having problems now with your 
clinical placements?

Thanks, Sue
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Re: [ozmidwifery] Uni SA B(Mid) problems

[Callum & Kirsten]

Hi Sue,
Those of us currently studying interstate got a fright when we heard about 
this letter! It seems it is a problem with the interstate hospitals not 
uniSA itself.
It will affect all new applicants, and shouldn't affect those of us already 
studying interstate.

Kirsten
Darwin
~~~start life with a midwife~~~
- Original Message - 
From: "Sue Cookson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 4:52 PM
Subject: [ozmidwifery] Uni SA B(Mid) problems


Hi all,
Just thought I'd update those others of you who may have enrolled to do 
the external BMid course through Uni SA. I guess I'd been feeling that 
there was something uncertain around the course, and today I received a 
letter from the uni saying that in future, all clinical placements for 
this course have to happen in SA (whereas to date students have found 
placements wherever they've resided).
Reason cited was "due to pressure on clinical places from within those 
states" (any state apart from SA)... makes you laugh since only Vic and SA 
have BMid programs. I know the huge Base Hospital near me (1300 births 
p/a) only has 2 places for midwifery students which are allocated to the 
students from Sturt Uni at Wagga Wagga. Oh dear.
I'm yet to determine whether the clinical placements can be done in 
blocks, in which case one could fly to SA for a few weeks here and there 
as required .. just another hurdle on the pathway...

Any of you currently doing this course having problems now with your 
clinical placements?

Thanks, Sue
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RE: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

[Sally Westbury]

I just have to say it if this is baby friendly then I really am
scared about what is baby unfriendly 

Love to you jo... and your bump

Sally Westbury
Homebirth Midwife
 
"It takes courage to remain a true advocate for women, challenging
authority and sacrificing social and professional acceptance. It takes
courage for a woman to choose a caregiver who will truly advocate for
and empower her."-Judy Slome Cohain

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JoFromOz
Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 2004 3:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] feeds in 24 hrs?

Our policy is to attempt first feed within 1 hour of birth. If 
unsuccessful, attempt 3 hours later (max). If not EBM is obtained for 
the baby within 6 hours, then a BSL is done.  If this is fine (2.2 or 
above) then the baby can be left another 3 hours.  A baby left much past

this would probably be refered to the paed (eek!) and would probably end

up in the SCN tube fed, depending on the midwife...  ;) But as long as 
the BSLs are ok 3 hourly, the baby is left according to policy.  Often 
if the baby is mucusy (causing reluctance to feed) they will 
unfortunately likely be given a stomach washout...again depending on the

midwife.

The policy isn't as bad as I've seen at other places... it's pretty baby

friendly compared to others.

Jo (the new Mrs. Watson!)

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