RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message Thanks... -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Melissa SingerSent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 1:11 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar I didn't think Lisa was dismissive of Gloria, and I thought she made a valid and well stated point, which has encouraged debate, discussion and further thought. Thanks Lisa - Original Message - From: Stephen Felicity To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Lisa, "such a broad unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was only due to imminent labour." Well, since women aren't morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of "management" but rather CARE and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that a woman reading research, evidence and opinion and making her own decisionswill trulybe endangered by "a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to enjoy true control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and support. Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning and statement; it's accurate. And this is a consumer list as much as it is a Midwife and Doula list. "Mary I was not 'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her background." Gloria Lemay's wisdom, experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the opinion of an American Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to the title of MIDWIFE than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why an American Doula's contributions would hold little weight anyway? If you ARE in fact aware of her background (as well as the fact that she can see and post on this list), I would have thought you would have at leastphrased your dismissal more respectfully. I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition, instinct and common senseare rejected and that Midwives will disregard the hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal sacrifices in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support and care). Where is our respect for our real crones and our birthing women's innate wisdom? And I wouldn't "shoot an opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames" if that opinion was accurate, fair, woman-centered, evidence-based,and reasonable.
[ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message Felicity I have deliberatley left replying until today so as not to reply in haste or anger and to try and understand where you are coming from Firstly I agree with you that women are not morons; but the reality for many of us is that the women we work with are not always willing to do extensive research into a form of care that is presented to them, and for some research may just involve logging onto the internet and reading statements such as Janets, I still believe that such a statment is too broad could prove problematic in such a situation. You are lucky if you work with women who read research and make informed descisons because for many of us, our realities are unfortuantely different and despite all the empowering in the worldsome choose not to be like this. And I disagree with the accuracy of Janets statement, as I am unable to find any literature that states that low liquor means labour is imminent. And for some women, decreased liqour volume, when present with other variables is indicative of an increased risk to the well being of her baby. In hindsight I probably could have worded my post better- my dismissiveness related to the fact that I was presented with an opinion based paper as evidence for Janets statement, and yes opinion counts, but as a health professional I am also required to provide women with eveidence based information. No disrespect was directed at anyone. Yes I still believe that alittle knowledge can be dangerous.A perfect example is the woman whohas a normal healthyfetus and decreased liqour .is told by the doc that she must have IOL because there is a risk to the baby...she asks no further questions...presents for IOL which fails and she goes to CS, and has a PPH.. is this not acase of alittle info being dangerous...am sure midwives have countless such examples! And in regards to birthing womans innate wisdom well, again this is not always the case unfortunately; as a woman presenting weekly from 32K, with various aches and pains, in the hope that someone will suggest IOL because she is tired of being pregnant is not being particulary wise. Not all woman have the wisdom or the intuiton when it comes to their pregnancies and their bodies that you speak of. In such a public forum I think we need to take into account all the women who birth babies in this country...including those who are experiencing less than normal pregnancies, and those too who choose not to inform themselves adequately, or those who leave the choices up to others. Lisa PS my apologies if I offended anyone for my use of the word 'management'I obviously require further tuition in the art of political correctedness. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen FelicitySent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 12:12 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Lisa, "such a broad unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was only due to imminent labour." Well, since women aren't morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of "management" but rather CARE and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that a woman reading research, evidence and opinion and making her own decisionswill trulybe endangered by "a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to enjoy true control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and support. Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning and statement; it's accurate. And this is a consumer list as much as it is a Midwife and Doula list. "Mary I was not 'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her background." Gloria Lemay's wisdom, experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the opinion of an American Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to the title of MIDWIFE than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why an American Doula's contributions would hold little weight anyway? If you ARE in fact aware of her background (as well as the fact that she can see and post on this list), I would have thought you would have at leastphrased your dismissal more respectfully. I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition, instinct and common senseare rejected and that Midwives will disregard the hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal sacrifices in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support and care). Where is our respect for our real crones and our birthing women's innate wisdom? And I wouldn't "shoot an opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames" if that opinion was accurate, fair, woman-centered, evidence-based,and reasonable.
: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Felicity I have deliberatley left replying until today so as not to reply in haste or anger and to try and understand where you are coming from Firstly I agree with you that women are not morons; but the reality for many of us is that the women we work with are not always willing to do extensive research into a form of care that is presented to them, and for some research may just involve logging onto the internet and reading statements such as Janets, I still believe that such a statment is too broad could prove problematic in such a situation. You are lucky if you work with women who read research and make informed descisons because for many of us, our realities are unfortuantely different and despite all the empowering in the world some choose not to be like this. And I disagree with the accuracy of Janets statement, as I am unable to find any literature that states that low liquor means labour is imminent. And for some women, decreased liqour volume, when present with other variables is indicative of an increased risk to the well being of her baby. In hindsight I probably could have worded my post better- my dismissiveness related to the fact that I was presented with an opinion based paper as evidence for Janets statement, and yes opinion counts, but as a health professional I am also required to provide women with eveidence based information. No disrespect was directed at anyone. Yes I still believe that alittle knowledge can be dangerous. A perfect example is the woman who has a normal healthy fetus and decreased liqour .is told by the doc that she must have IOL because there is a risk to the baby...she asks no further questions...presents for IOL which fails and she goes to CS, and has a PPH.. is this not a case of alittle info being dangerous... am sure midwives have countless such examples! And in regards to birthing womans innate wisdom well, again this is not always the case unfortunately; as a woman presenting weekly from 32K, with various aches and pains, in the hope that someone will suggest IOL because she is tired of being pregnant is not being particulary wise. Not all woman have the wisdom or the intuiton when it comes to their pregnancies and their bodies that you speak of. In such a public forum I think we need to take into account all the women who birth babies in this country...including those who are experiencing less than normal pregnancies, and those too who choose not to inform themselves adequately, or those who leave the choices up to others. Lisa PS my apologies if I offended anyone for my use of the word 'management'I obviously require further tuition in the art of political correctedness. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Felicity Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 12:12 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Lisa, such a broad unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was only due to imminent labour. Well, since women aren't morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of management but rather CARE and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that a woman reading research, evidence and opinion and making her own decisions will truly be endangered by a little bit of knowledge - if she is able to enjoy true control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and support. Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning and statement; it's accurate. And this is a consumer list as much as it is a Midwife and Doula list. Mary I was not 'dismissing the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her background. Gloria Lemay's wisdom, experience and evidence based knowledge is not the opinion of an American Doula (I don't know of many women with more claim to the title of MIDWIFE than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why an American Doula's contributions would hold little weight anyway? If you ARE in fact aware of her background (as well as the fact that she can see and post on this list), I would have thought you would have at least phrased your dismissal more respectfully. I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition, instinct and common sense are rejected and that Midwives will disregard the hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal sacrifices in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support and care). Where is our respect for our real crones and our birthing women's innate wisdom? And I wouldn't shoot an opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames if that opinion was accurate, fair, woman-centered, evidence-based, and reasonable. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message Mary here is a quick summary of what I found all pretty standard stuff.have full text papers if anyone is interested in any of the points...some of interest forwarded to the list.. isolated oligohydramnios at term in relation to no other fetal or maternal health issue is not an indication for IOL...although may require further monitoring oligohydramnios diagnosed prior to third trimester has poor outcomes- live birth rate in one small study of only 1 in 15 measurement of liqour volume is done in different ways and alone is a poor predictor of problems but is probably quite useful when combined with other tests such as dopplers to monitor high risk pregnancies oligohydramnios is common in IUGR and in such cases warrants further ongoing assessment of fetal wellbing fetal growth restriction is the most common cause of stillbirth and one study suggests probably plays a large role in those IUFDs which are reported as unexplained overall oligohydramnios probably is related to an an increase in fetal intolerability of labour and an increase in CS for fetal distress; and a increase in the incidence of low apgarat 5 minutes;no study has shown at relationship between oligohydramnios and neonatal acidosis maternal oral hydration has been shown to improve liqour volume within hours and probably has a lasting effect Regards Lisa -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary MurphySent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 6:24 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar have done my own lit r/v and answered my own questions!! Regards Lisa Lisa, would you share this with us? I am very interested in the subject. Thanks. MM
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message have done my own lit r/v and answered my own questions!! Regards Lisa Lisa, would you share this with us? I am very interested in the subject. Thanks. MM Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes; you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring. We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message Will do so Mary. Lisa -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary MurphySent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 6:24 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar have done my own lit r/v and answered my own questions!! Regards Lisa Lisa, would you share this with us? I am very interested in the subject. Thanks. MM Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquorthing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severegrowth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would beassessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGRfetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFDetc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological!Lisa
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message You are correct. Prenatal testing is imperfect. The problem is that women are led to believe that it is and action is taken on the results. It is the doctors who should be careful about making broad statements. I recently attended a lecture on biophysical profiling given by a doctor doing her Masters in U/S prenatal diagnosis. She stated that the biophysical profiling was just like a snapshot in time. It could not predict what would happen tomorrow, nor next week. Just at the moment it was taken; obviously research is done and extrapolated to the wider group of similar women and that is what we rely on. By the way, Gloria Lemay is a very experienced American midwife. She may be referred to as a doula for legal reasons, but she would put most of us to shame with her knowledge and experience. She is also very politically savvy as she has fought for the rights of birthing women for sooo long. She has also spent time in jail because of her outspoken views. Do not dismiss her opinions so lightly. MM Janet am well aware of the imperfections in technologies used around birth - but I think we need to be careful when we make broad statements. Lower liquor (and remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term - this is different from earlier in pregnancy. Biophysical profiling is supposed to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To whit: Suspect Diagnoses Come with Biophysical Profiling http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp - Original Message -
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message Mary I was not 'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her background. What I was saying is that I wished to have hard facts notopinions on the comments in regards to the liquor thing! If it were an opinion from an obstetrician we would be shooting it down in flames! I completely agree with the article, and I am well aware of the stuff on biophysical profiles; in the unit I work in it is no longer used as it once was. My points were that such a broad statement should be clarified.Completely agree with you Mary on the fact that women are led to believe that they require intervention from the results of antenatal tests...I am trying to take the middle road here...such a broad unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was only due to imminent labour. Lisa -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mary MurphySent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 9:10 AMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar You are correct. Prenatal testing is imperfect. The problem is that women are led to believe that it is and action is taken on the results. It is the doctors who should be careful about making broad statements. I recently attended a lecture on biophysical profiling given by a doctor doing her Masters in U/S prenatal diagnosis. She stated that the biophysical profiling was just like a snapshot in time. It could not predict what would happen tomorrow, nor next week. Just at the moment it was taken; obviously research is done and extrapolated to the wider group of similar women and that is what we rely on. By the way, Gloria Lemay is a very experienced American midwife. She may be referred to as a doula for legal reasons, but she would put most of us to shame with her knowledge and experience. She is also very politically savvy as she has fought for the rights of birthing women for sooo long. She has also spent time in jail because of her outspoken views. Do not dismiss her opinions so lightly. MM Janet am well aware of the imperfections in technologies used around birth - but I think we need to be careful when we make broad statements. Lower liquor (and remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term - this is different from earlier in pregnancy. Biophysical profiling is supposed to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To whit: Suspect Diagnoses Come with Biophysical Profilinghttp://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp - Original Message -
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message Point taken. We are all so passionate and like the women feel we need to dddooo something! BuT what??? REGARDS, mm ..I am trying to take the middle road here...such a broad unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was only due to imminent labour. Lisa -Original Message- From: owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au [mailto:owner-ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au] On Behalf Of Mary Murphy Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 9:10 AM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar You are correct. Prenatal testing is imperfect. The problem is that women are led to believe that it is and action is taken on the results. It is the doctors who should be careful about making broad statements. I recently attended a lecture on biophysical profiling given by a doctor doing her Masters in U/S prenatal diagnosis. She stated that the biophysical profiling was just like a snapshot in time. It could not predict what would happen tomorrow, nor next week. Just at the moment it was taken; obviously research is done and extrapolated to the wider group of similar women and that is what we rely on. By the way, Gloria Lemay is a very experienced American midwife. She may be referred to as a doula for legal reasons, but she would put most of us to shame with her knowledge and experience. She is also very politically savvy as she has fought for the rights of birthing women for sooo long. She has also spent time in jail because of her outspoken views. Do not dismiss her opinions so lightly. MM Janet am well aware of the imperfections in technologies used around birth - but I think we need to be careful when we make broad statements. Lower liquor (and remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term - this is different from earlier in pregnancy. Biophysical profiling is supposed to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To whit: Suspect Diagnoses Come with Biophysical Profiling http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp - Original Message -
Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message Lisa, "such a broad unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was only due to imminent labour." Well, since women aren't morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of "management" but rather CARE and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that a woman reading research, evidence and opinion and making her own decisionswill trulybe endangered by "a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to enjoy true control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and support. Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning and statement; it's accurate. And this is a consumer list as much as it is a Midwife and Doula list. "Mary I was not 'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her background." Gloria Lemay's wisdom, experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the opinion of an American Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to the title of MIDWIFE than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why an American Doula's contributions would hold little weight anyway? If you ARE in fact aware of her background (as well as the fact that she can see and post on this list), I would have thought you would have at leastphrased your dismissal more respectfully. I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition, instinct and common senseare rejected and that Midwives will disregard the hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal sacrifices in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support and care). Where is our respect for our real crones and our birthing women's innate wisdom? And I wouldn't "shoot an opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames" if that opinion was accurate, fair, woman-centered, evidence-based,and reasonable.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Title: Message I didn't think Lisa was dismissive of Gloria, and I thought she made a valid and well stated point, which has encouraged debate, discussion and further thought. Thanks Lisa - Original Message - From: Stephen Felicity To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Lisa, "such a broad unsupported statement could lead a woman to believe that the current management of her pregnancy is incorrect because she read on this list of very experienced midwives and doulas that decreased liqour was only due to imminent labour." Well, since women aren't morons, and pregnancy is not really an issue of "management" but rather CARE and SUPPORT, I don't think we need to fear that a woman reading research, evidence and opinion and making her own decisionswill trulybe endangered by "a little bit of knowledge" - if she is able to enjoy true control of her own pregnancy and birth and receive true care and support. Besides which I personally find no flaw in Janet's reasoning and statement; it's accurate. And this is a consumer list as much as it is a Midwife and Doula list. "Mary I was not 'dismissing" the opinions of Gloria Lemay, and I am aware of her background." Gloria Lemay's wisdom, experience and evidence based knowledge is not "the opinion of an American Doula" (I don't know of many women with more claim to the title of MIDWIFE than Gloria!) - besides which, I'm intrigued as to why an American Doula's contributions would hold little weight anyway? If you ARE in fact aware of her background (as well as the fact that she can see and post on this list), I would have thought you would have at leastphrased your dismissal more respectfully. I also feel sad that wisdom, intuition, instinct and common senseare rejected and that Midwives will disregard the hard won wisdom of their own (Gloria made some colossal personal sacrifices in honour of TRULY being with woman and providing REAL support and care). Where is our respect for our real crones and our birthing women's innate wisdom? And I wouldn't "shoot an opinion from an Obstetrician down in flames" if that opinion was accurate, fair, woman-centered, evidence-based,and reasonable.
[ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Am resending this as didn't come thru on my email. lisa Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes; you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring. We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that crap. It's a bit like the We have to induce for low liquor rubbish when everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again! : ) J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
I got it Lisa the second time :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:33 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Am resending this as didn't come thru on my email. lisa Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes; you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring. We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that crap. It's a bit like the We have to induce for low liquor rubbish when everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again! : ) J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 4/07/2006 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Hi Penny Out of interest idi your babe have IUGR? Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Penny Withers Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:11 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Haven't posted before and have only recently started reading here. So thanks for all of your interesting comments on a range of issues and subjects. I'm interested particularly in this one..I had oligohydramnios diagnosed at 34 weeks. An AFI of 2 is not normal in my experience and three weeks later still no baby ...other measures of fetal wellbeing all ok. Had my baby been cephalic I would have accepted induction. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:33 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Am resending this as didn't come thru on my email. lisa Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes; you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring. We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that crap. It's a bit like the We have to induce for low liquor rubbish when everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again! : ) J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 4/07/2006 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Apologies for my terrible spelling!! Lack of sleep due to sick toddler certainly can affect the brain and the fingers!!! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:19 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Hi Penny Out of interest idi your babe have IUGR? Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Penny Withers Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:11 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Haven't posted before and have only recently started reading here. So thanks for all of your interesting comments on a range of issues and subjects. I'm interested particularly in this one..I had oligohydramnios diagnosed at 34 weeks. An AFI of 2 is not normal in my experience and three weeks later still no baby ...other measures of fetal wellbeing all ok. Had my baby been cephalic I would have accepted induction. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:33 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Am resending this as didn't come thru on my email. lisa Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes; you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring. We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that crap. It's a bit like the We have to induce for low liquor rubbish when everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again! : ) J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 4/07/2006 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Frank breech 37 weeks--3045g ( so a midwife caring for me said very loudly THAT'S NOT IUGR). Bilateral hip dyplasia--braced for three weeks and pavlick harness for 8 weeks. No family history of ddh. She was squished. Looking at my tummy was scary it was really little and looked dry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:22 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Apologies for my terrible spelling!! Lack of sleep due to sick toddler certainly can affect the brain and the fingers!!! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:19 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Hi Penny Out of interest idi your babe have IUGR? Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Penny Withers Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:11 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Haven't posted before and have only recently started reading here. So thanks for all of your interesting comments on a range of issues and subjects. I'm interested particularly in this one..I had oligohydramnios diagnosed at 34 weeks. An AFI of 2 is not normal in my experience and three weeks later still no baby ...other measures of fetal wellbeing all ok. Had my baby been cephalic I would have accepted induction. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lisa Gierke Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 6:33 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Am resending this as didn't come thru on my email. lisa Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes; you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring. We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that crap. It's a bit like the We have to induce for low liquor rubbish when everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again! : ) J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 4/07/2006 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 7/4/2006 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 4/07/2006 -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Lower liquor (and remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term - this is different from earlier in pregnancy. Biophysical profiling is supposed to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To whit: Suspect Diagnoses Come with Biophysical Profilinghttp://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp - Original Message - From: "Lisa Gierke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:32 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Am resending this as didn't come thru" on my email. lisaJanet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquorthing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severegrowth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would beassessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGRfetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes;you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFDetc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring.We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological!Lisa-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet FraserSent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PMTo: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.auSubject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of ScarIt just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far inpregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyonesays, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with thatcrap. It's a bit like the "We have to induce for low liquor" rubbish wheneveryone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is onthe way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again!: )J--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
RE: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar
Thank-you Janet for that link. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 7:30 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Lower liquor (and remember we measure VERY imperfectly) is normal at term - this is different from earlier in pregnancy. Biophysical profiling is supposed to give this kind of information but is deeply flawed. To whit: Suspect Diagnoses Come with Biophysical Profiling http://www.midwiferytoday.com/articles/biophysical.asp - Original Message - From: Lisa Gierke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 6:32 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] Low liquor was Trial of scar Am resending this as didn't come thru on my email. lisa Janet could you please provide us with some references on the low liquor thing? My understanding and experience is that in some cases of severe growth restriction, low liquor is concerning, obviously this would be assessed along with other measures of fetal wellbeing. But if one has a IUGR fetus who has placental insufficieny, poor growth and low liqour volumes; you have a baby that is at risk of adverse perinatal outcomes such as IUFD etc.A decsion needs to be made between IOL and further inutero monitoring. We need to be careful we are not normalising the pathological! Lisa -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Janet Fraser Sent: Friday, 7 July 2006 1:22 PM To: ozmidwifery@acegraphics.com.au Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] Trial of Scar It just stands to reason, doesn't it, that a muscle that stretches so far in pregnancy wouldn't be as thick as it is when empty! And yes, like everyone says, if those women weren't being carved up no one could come out with that crap. It's a bit like the We have to induce for low liquor rubbish when everyone who's read anything of worth knows that low liquor means bubs is on the way shortly... Pathologising the utterly normal, again! : ) J -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.9/382 - Release Date: 4/07/2006
