Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Thank you Aviva for sharing with us. What a brave, courageous woman you are. Love to you . Leigh - Original Message - From: Aviva Sheb'a To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Gees, Rhonda, I feel for you with your business. Why would anyone want to get a tongue pierced?shudder Read what I'm saying next carefully please. I understand your situation; that not what I'm about to rant about. It's the situation in general. This whole business of "class distinction" gets on my nerves. We, of the "lower socio-economic class", are fed up with "middle class" people who are educated in The System on how to rip off the people with less, ripping us off. Just because we have not had the opportunities of education, (which included how to get along in The System) did not have the sheer luck (or whatever it may be) of marrying the "right" person with the "right" pay packet or socio-economic status to haul us out of whatever we've been forced into, does not mean Freddy or Freda Bloggs has the right to exploit us. In my own case, I have been very shabbily treated by several "landlords" (my, how THAT term needs to be changed!). The last one used his position as a big-wig at Australia Post to have me turfed out with my children on false pretences, gathering along the way a series of false "information". He lied under oath, as did his missus, at the Residential Tenancies Tribunal. This was largely responsible for my son leaving home. Since I moved with my Darlings to Adelaide in 1996, we have lived in 5 different houses.One was in such bad state that when I contacted the housing inspectors after the electricals failed and the landlord wanted me to pay $2000 for the place to be rewired, there was a list as long as your arm of things to be fixed to bring the house up to "liveable" standard. The inspector found all the electricals were wired by an amateur from one joint in the roof -- less than a metre from where there'd been a leak from the holey roof for over ten years. The inspector could not understand how there'd never been a fire. The damned "landlord" actually told me I shouldconsider myself lucky to live in such a place, there's plenty worse. Yes, I said, I've seenpeople dying of starvation without even a piece of plastic for shelter -- in India, in Vietnam during the war, in Indonesia, but this is Adelaide, Australia. The place I'min currently isdreadful to live in at $175 per week. I'm on aCentrelink payment which is inadequate, but I cannot realistically be a full-time mother and go out to work. How others manage it, I do not know. When I diddo it for a while, my children went bananas and I chose to live on a small income rather than let them go off the rails. Many people of the 'lower socio-economic class" are not there by choice. We would love to have a mortgage, which would be less to pay than rent. Many have a background of child abuse or other hardships. Many have worked hard but been treated badly and left with no option but to quit, making it harder to get another job. It can leave one bitter and cynical. You have no idea how hard it is to haul oneself out of that pit once you've fallen into it. You do not have enough money for clothing. To buy food, you have to hunt around for the cheapest. Your have to beg the school to allow your child to go on excursions, to do subjects where there is a fee. To not have to pay the school fees, even though it's a government school, the fees are much too high for those on a low income. An example of this is my son's high school staff insisted I talk to all the school councillors as well as the Outdoor Education teachers and tell them exactly WHY I could not afford the Outdoor Ed. fees, yet wanted Leslie to do that subject. I had to do that twice every term. I found out I had to tell them he wanted to be an Outdoor Ed teacher so he could do it as a subject in Years 10 11. If you don't have the money, they said, there has to be a valid reason for him doing the subject that anyone with $85 per term is allowed to do. We have to beg for all sorts of rights that others take for granted. How do you think we put shoes on our children's feet? By going without decent shoes ourselves. This is how I became physically disabled to the point where I could no longer walk and they had to do the shopping. I cannot take public transport, yet maintaining my 1975 Corona is difficult. I have to pay more for petrol than I would with car on unleaded. Paying registration is $110 every three months. If I could save up enough to pay for a year, it wou
Re: [ozmidwifery] What Doctors learn at med school
Thanks Joanne - I'll be updating it soon. (I keep saying that, but REALLY - it's going to happen!) Hope you enjoyed the photo gallery -- I love it. Kind regards, Lois - Original Message - From: Mrs joanne m fisher To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] What Doctors learn at med school Lois, Your website is gorgeous. Joanne. - Original Message - From: Lois Wattis To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:35 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] What Doctors learn at med school Robyn, your response is so articulate and accurate. I think it should be adapted to a "letters to the editor" type form and submitted to mainstream and professional printed media for publication. I agree entirely with your views - WELL SAID. You havedescribed the situation just as I see it. Yoursuggestion of enlargingour profile to incorporate an Australasian (ieAustralian/New Zealand) approach could also strengthen our collective push for birth reform. Best wishes, Lois Lois WattisRegistered Midwifewww.birthjourney.com
Re: [ozmidwifery] What Doctors learn at med school
Lois, Your website is gorgeous. Joanne. - Original Message - From: Lois Wattis To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 9:35 PM Subject: [ozmidwifery] What Doctors learn at med school Robyn, your response is so articulate and accurate. I think it should be adapted to a "letters to the editor" type form and submitted to mainstream and professional printed media for publication. I agree entirely with your views - WELL SAID. You havedescribed the situation just as I see it. Yoursuggestion of enlargingour profile to incorporate an Australasian (ieAustralian/New Zealand) approach could also strengthen our collective push for birth reform. Best wishes, Lois Lois WattisRegistered Midwifewww.birthjourney.com
RE: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Aviva, I wish I could make the world a better and more fairer place. I too know what it is like to make do and sometimes I look back with affection and gratitude at the lessons I learned back then. Now I am one of the middle class who adore being entertained by people such as you and I have a son who is desperate to get into your industry (in fact he has an audition for a children's opera tomorrow). Life is often hard and unfair and just today I was wondering how I can be all that others would have me be and yet still have the energy and strength to carry on. I don't know why some have to struggle while others can sail through life, but I do believe there is a purpose in all we do and I strongly cling to the concept of Karma. You have touched many of us through your input on this list, Aviva. I am a better person because of your touch in my life. Thank you. Chin up - I love you. Edwina :) Ps: love from Kasia too :P -- This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics. Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Oh, shucks, Edwina! I don't ask "why me?" I've had such incredible experiences in my life, I feel very privileged. I consider myself very rich. I declare, "Why -- MEE!!" Love and hugs to you and Kasia, Aviva - Original Message - From: Vance Edwina To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:01 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Aviva,I wish I could make the world a better and more fairer place. I tooknow what it is like to make do and sometimes I look back with affectionand gratitude at the lessons I learned back then. Now I am one of the"middle class" who adore being entertained by people such as you and Ihave a son who is desperate to get into your industry (in fact he has anaudition for a children's opera tomorrow). Life is often hard andunfair and just today I was wondering how I can be all that others wouldhave me be and yet still have the energy and strength to carry on. Idon't know why some have to struggle while others can sail through life,but I do believe there is a purpose in all we do and I strongly cling tothe concept of Karma. You have touched many of us through your input onthis list, Aviva. I am a better person because of your touch in mylife.Thank you. Chin up - I love you.Edwina :)Ps: love from Kasia too :P--This mailing list is sponsored by ACE Graphics.Visit http://www.acegraphics.com.au to subscribe or unsubscribe.
Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Aviva, I reallydo feel for you and meant no offence as i am not well off at all myself - thank's for thinking i am. I guess I fit into the lower class as well - although even though on a health care card and with a low income we work our buts off from about 7am to 3am some nights I am working. Long hours just to keep our heads above water. We were fortunate that we got some land from my husbands parents for a low price and we moved our house onto it. Paid $3000 for the house in 1988 and took out a loan to move it here...it is still not finished and my floor coverings are not done ad it needs work - we will finish one day. We still on;ly have 2 bedrooms and with George three ion with Katelyn 9 it is a bit hard for them to be comfortable. My lounge is a toy room, office, and family room all in one. We started our business through - not going out, not drinking, not going to movies, not buying new clothing, we saved and worked to get the shop off the ground - it took years of hard work and a basic goal. We had no government grants or assistance and it took years for us to get to a point where we can actually feel like we have a little bit of money so I do know how it is. And yes we have been fortunate enough to get through. i got all of $25 per fortnight while I did the Associate diploma of social Science (Child Care) and my father was unemployed and ill. However, I see peope in my shop who have no money yet go out and spend $100's on drugs and alcohol and who complain about being broke. They get more than me some of them. My actual Taxable income for last year to live on was about $14,000 between my partner and myself. His was $8,000 and mi9ne was less. Any other earnings were absorbed by the shop which cost so much to run and we get people wanting us to give them stuff for nothing if they have 5 kids and are on benefits they get more than me. So I am not judging people on an income basis but the mere fact is if they have nothing they are in a possition where they can say anything about you, and even sue you (getting legal aid) Which even though I have a low income - I cannot get and I have more expences because I have to get clothing and look good for work - I have to run 2 cars and I have bills to pay. I don't expect charity because I am a proud person and will battle on. It is people who expect that I and everyone else owes them a living - they are sueing me for goodness sakes because I have worked just a lot harder and had a few less drinks and had shabby clothing and have really done it tough and gone without. In the past 12yrs of marriage, we have been out to dinner twice and have been to the movies maybe 5 times. I don't expect anything for nothing but I don't expect to have to give up my house and everrything I have worked for because some idiot got his tongue pierced at another shop and is stupid enough to sue me. I generally do not judge people bytheir income or status but in this case I am so shocked to be the victim of such a horrible horrible thing. It makes all of our work absolutely senseless. I have a tooth that needs pulling and can't afford to go to the dentist too. So I guess because i said that people in a lower socio economic status are able to lie is not a judgement - just a fact of life. I couldn't afford health cover which is why i was treated so badly and had such a hard time when I had my children because the public systemand cattle yard metality of the anti natal "care' was all I could afford. ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:15:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Gees, Rhonda, I feel for you with your business. Why would anyone want to get a tongue pierced?shudder Read what I'm saying next carefully please. I understand your situation; that not what I'm about to rant about. It's the situation in general. This whole business of "class distinction" gets on my nerves. We, of the "lower socio-economic class", are fed up with "middle class" people who are educated in The System on how to rip off the people with less, ripping us off. Just because we have not had the opportunities of education, (which included how to get along in The System) did not have the sheer luck (or whatever it may be) of marrying the "right"
Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Aviva, I will do. Yes well I am proud of what we have done - from having nothing we have built a business and it is just so sad that one dickhead is trying to ruin it for no fault of our own. It has made us feel quite vulnerable and has basically put our lives on hold for the past 2 yrs and wont be sorted until at least Feb. So yes to quote the young student doctor - "It has made our lives Hell." That is what litigation does. I have learnt so much from this. We can't plan anything - not another child, not to finish the house or to have a holiday or anything at all until we know where we stand with this stupid case. Not to mention the solicitors fees we have had to pay that we wont get back because he has nothing. It has been hard but I have faith that the truth is on our side. I am a painfully honest person and can not lie to save myself but i CAN stand up and tell the truth and will fight for that every time. Rhonda ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 22:38:28 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Hi, Rhonda, thank you for that -- all of it. It's kind of weird, sharing all that personal stuff on a list anyone could end up reading. We can be proud of our achievements. I think we are success stories. I hope your case is cleared up quickly (at last) and well and truly in your favour. Anyway, if you find Rhondda Mahar, please put me in touch with her! Hugs, Aviva - Original Message - From: Rhonda To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 8:12 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Aviva, I reallydo feel for you and meant no offence as i am not well off at all myself - thank's for thinking i am. I guess I fit into the lower class as well - although even though on a health care card and with a low income we work our buts off from about 7am to 3am some nights I am working. Long hours just to keep our heads above water. We were fortunate that we got some land from my husbands parents for a low price and we moved our house onto it. Paid $3000 for the house in 1988 and took out a loan to move it here...it is still not finished and my floor coverings are not done ad it needs work - we will finish one day. We still on;ly have 2 bedrooms and with George three ion with Katelyn 9 it is a bit hard for them to be comfortable. My lounge is a toy room, office, and family room all in one. We started our business through - not going out, not drinking, not going to movies, not buying new clothing, we saved and worked to get the shop off the ground - it took years of hard work and a basic goal. We had no government grants or assistance and it took years for us to get to a point where we can actually feel like we have a little bit of money so I do know how it is. And yes we have been fortunate enough to get through. i got all of $25 per fortnight while I did the Associate diploma of social Science (Child Care) and my father was unemployed and ill. However, I see peope in my shop who have no money yet go out and spend $100's on drugs and alcohol and who complain about being broke. They get more than me some of them. My actual Taxable income for last year to live on was about $14,000 between my partner and myself. His was $8,000 and mi9ne was less. Any other earnings were absorbed by the shop which cost so much to run and we get people wanting us to give them stuff for nothing if they have 5 kids and are on benefits they get more than me. So I am not judging people on an income basis but the mere fact is if they have nothing they are in a possition where they can say anything about you, and even sue you (getting legal aid) Which even though I have a low income - I cannot get and I have more expences because I have to get clothing and look good for work - I have to run 2 cars and I have bills to pay. I don't expect charity because I am a proud person and will battle on. It is people who expect that I and everyone else owes the
Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
..."its the underlying premise in all that we do"..."we have to
always be thinking at every moment...are you the one who is going to make
my life hell?"
Ok - well I can almost understand this way of thinking and i do not
condone it.
But, our Body Piercing Studio - cannot get insurance at all - never
have been able to even though it should be very low risk. However,
we have had a court case going for the past 2 yrs - still dragging out
over a piercing that we didn't even do. The guy seems to have been
paid by the shop that did do the piercing to say we did it. (he had
his tongue done by them on a Wed AM - it got swollen and he ended up in
hospital on Sunday PM. He had it removed surgically - 2 days latter
(so on tuesday)they did a tracheostemy for infection from swelling and
then a day after that he had renal failure and now he is saying we did the
piercing on the Thursday and the problems must have all been our
fault. A - he has NO proof at all and B - we have witnesses too say
we did not do and and saw he had it done on Wed. But it is still
dragging out and costing in legal fees.
Because he has the doctors assisting him we have had a hell of a time
proving that it is a a great big fraudulent case and a lie. And the
doctors wont admit that they may have caused a problem - even though he
got the swelling 2 days after they removed it.
So i in some ways look at clients as - "Are you the next dickhead who
is going to try to make my life hell?"
I have some highly educated clients who I can chat to for hours and
fiinally get round to what they have come in for and i also have clients
who are absolute "nuff nuffs" and as they walk out the door the prediction
of how long it will take for them to return with an infection is almost
worth betting on.
I must admit that some surprize me and do take care of the piercing
and return for the check up in two weeks time with no problems - to my
relief.
It seems to be the lower socio economic clients who are more inclined
to expect to pay less and sue if they have a problem - it seems to
me that the lower socio economic clients are more likely to go to the TV
shows and the likes because it is not worth counter sueing for defamation
as they have nothing. If I were to go on TV and defame someone I
would risk litigation and the loss of my business and house etc but if I
have nothing - what can I loose.
Next time you see someone bagging any business on the likes of ACA
you will notice the socio economic status of that person. Most of
them are low income people in rented houses. I guess Doctors see the
same thing and the mentality is therefore being taught to them. It
is so sad for this to be happening.
Unfortunately, since we have had this rediculous case happen to us we
are more distant from clients in general and defensive. Wef find it
hard t trust people.
We have the consolation that - A - we didn't do it and B - because
they lied on ACA we will eventually win our case and then look at
defamation.
Here i am a country girl just trying to make ends meet (we just sold
a bull - he cost us about $120 in formula and feed - because we have not
had enoughrain we had to sell him - we got $49) Situation grim and
rain not coming it is taking it's toll on the farmers and then to top it
off we have litigation to contend with. I look at my life sometimes
and think - who needs TV shows.
Sorry to rant so long - just sometimes can't believe how some "nuff
nuff" people can get legal help and how we are becoming so much run by
lawers and litigation.
Regards
Rhonda
---Original Message---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Monday, November
11, 2002 19:02:58
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re:
[ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
I had the dubious pleasure of sharing last semester with
a group of first year medical students, of which one wished to become an
obstetrician, but she couldn't tell me why? They were all in my
opinion, abnormally focussed on litigation - this was first years
What was really scary was they had no idea - they thought the reason
we had the highest intervention and cs rates in Australia was because of
our lower socio-economic group women. When I asked if they could
explain why the healthiest and most affluent women of our community
experience the most intervention they were struck dumb. These
young women will be
Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
consistently for twenty years or more, who have the clothing, the car, are able to afford to look after themselves so they look more "the part"? How do we afford dental bills? In an emergency, I can go to the dental hospital and have a tooth pulled out, but that leaves a permanent gap. In our society, one can tell another's socio-economic status just by looking at the teeth. Even decent toothbrushes are beyond our budget. What I don't understand is how some people in this situation manage to buy cigarettes. Do you now understand why so many of us are bitter? I just love the assumption madeby most people that because I am articulate, care about people, have done a lot with my life, that I am "middle class". Thanks for the "compliment"??? I've thought about taking my case to ACA, but have not had the guts. I say, good luck to those who do -- AS LONG AS IT'S GENUINE! As an artist (writer, performer), I am thoroughly fed up with being expected to entertain those who can afford to pay for tickets -- exclusively the "middle class" -- in situations where the bureaucrats, bar staff, ticket sellers, ushers, technicians, get paid, but the artists whom the public go to see, do not. The show I put on last month cost me over $300 in expenses, yet the venue director expects me to be happy with $85 door takings --- and I have five musicians to pay. I spent two months preparing for that show, yet am expected to be happy to pay for the privilege. Go tell me that's not the "middle class" exploiting the "lower socio-economic class". Remember, before John Howard lied his way into power, we NEVER talked about class in Australia. That was something we were proud of. I had sufficient paid casual work to be able to care for my children and have a few luxuries like shoes, the occasional movie or concert. Aviva-in-dismay-and-anger - Original Message - From: Rhonda To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:54 PM Subject: Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! ..."its the underlying premise in all that we do"..."we have to always be thinking at every moment...are you the one who is going to make my life hell?" Ok - well I can almost understand this way of thinking and i do not condone it. But, our Body Piercing Studio - cannot get insurance at all - never have been able to even though it should be very low risk. However, we have had a court case going for the past 2 yrs - still dragging out over a piercing that we didn't even do. The guy seems to have been paid by the shop that did do the piercing to say we did it. (he had his tongue done by them on a Wed AM - it got swollen and he ended up in hospital on Sunday PM. He had it removed surgically - 2 days latter (so on tuesday)they did a tracheostemy for infection from swelling and then a day after that he had renal failure and now he is saying we did the piercing on the Thursday and the problems must have all been our fault. A - he has NO proof at all and B - we have witnesses too say we did not do and and saw he had it done on Wed. But it is still dragging out and costing in legal fees. Because he has the doctors assisting him we have had a hell of a time proving that it is a a great big fraudulent case and a lie. And the doctors wont admit that they may have caused a problem - even though he got the swelling 2 days after they removed it. So i in some ways look at clients as - "Are you the next dickhead who is going to try to make my life hell?" I have some highly educated clients who I can chat to for hours and fiinally get round to what they have come in for and i also have clients who are absolute "nuff nuffs" and as they walk out the door the prediction of how long it will take for them to return with an infection is almost worth betting on. I must admit that some surprize me and do take care of the piercing and return for the check up in two weeks time with no problems - to my relief. It seems to be the lower socio economic clients who are more inclined to expect to pay less and sue if they have a problem - it seems to me that the lower socio economic clients are more likely to go to the TV shows and the likes because it is not worth counter sueing for defamation as they have nothing. If I were to go on TV and defame someone I would risk litigation and the loss of my business and house etc but if I have nothing - what can I loose. Next time you see someone bagging any business on the likes of ACA you will notice the socio economic status of that person. Most of them are low income people in rented houses. I
Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Hi everyone, One of my daugters is studying medicine, and she is appalled at the common 'ethic' or attitude of fellow med students. A typical example would be that she was taught that baby's breathing mechanism is stimulated initially by the cutting of the cord. It is in her text book!! When she queried this and mentioned lotus birth and underwater births and homebirths where cords are not cut (quickly) so can not be part of the stimulation to breathe, the only response was that she must be the one from ...Nimbin or wherever I've changed the place so to protect my daughter, but I'm sure you get the gist. NO DISCUSSION at all, and NO queries from any of the other students (most being sons and daughters of GPs). It is surely horrifying!! These ARE the future GPs and OBs of the future!! Sue Hi again all, had an interesting afternoon today at a BBQ with some old work mates...One friend who I worked at CSIRO with eons ago (past life stuff) like me had a radical change in occupation and went to do nursing...she finished her nursing about 8 years agoanyhowshe brought a friend to the BBQ ...a work colleague I just assumed this woman was a nurse too...anyhow got chatting as you do...my friend announced to her work colleague that I was doing midwifery.So your a nurse too she asked...No...I'm not a nurse doing the new Bachelor of Midwiferybla blaDirect entry my friend announcesone of THOSE midwives who think they are not part of the nursing profession. ...Well that went down REAL well...she always did know how to get my hackles up...thought I had educated her better than that...but can see she has been educated by others than just I...:-(( No not direct entry I replied...we don't do direct entry nursingor direct entry medicine...or direct law or accounting...bla bla bla..Anyhow ...finally this work colleague couldn't resist and announced that she was a MO...doing her internshipand wanted to know more about the likes of you doing midwifery without nursing firstdo you do any physiology??? bla bla bla I guess you can imagine the conversation from there... The conversion progressed quickly back to medicine...I wanted to pick her brains about being a beginning practitioner and her thoughts on the health care system...What struck me immediately was her sheer arrogance and lack of understanding of peopleamazingAccording to her the general public are all fu-k--- nuff nuffsparents have no parenting skills..the public all just want to sue us. She was just fascinated to think that I would even consider private practice as a midwife...too scary - you must be fu--ing mad!! and noone from uni is even considering obs and gynae as its just too risky. This woman is 25 years old and already educated with the 'fear factor'. She stated openly that as doctors they are taught at med school that a trusting relationship with your patients is non existent as the patient only looks to the doctor fix up their problems and will sue if they don't..and the doctor looks at the patient thinking all you want is to sue meI was totally blown away by this...oh yeh she says...its the underlying premise in all that we do...we have to always be thinking at every moment...are you the one who is going to make my life hell? How scary is this folks???These are the obs of the future...This woman has this level of fear ingrained into her already..I couldn't believe what I was hearingI was almost lost for words...beleive it or not! Ahhh I said...that's where midwives have it all over doctorsour basic premise is trustfor if we can't establish our professional relationships on thatlike you guys are discovering...when it all comes tumbling downyou have nothing else Trust and communication.two important factors in not getting sued I'd reckon..but hey who am Ionly a nuf nuff in her eyes... Cheers Tina P.
RE: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
to ripple the waters or move the boundaries. While midwives are happy to practice as 'hand maidens' the cohesiveness we need will continue to be undermined. Medical/obstetric educationperpetuates control over women and midwives by the way they indoctrinatetheir young and the way in which recently they used their power to achievepolitical fear by holding a government and the people to ransom over theirdesire for professional indemnity protection. Sheer control is maintained by this very lucrative, powerful, politically wise, lobbygroup who successfully tilt the scales to inequality. I have beenberated many, many times in similar ways described by Tina during her conversation at the BBQ. Over many years of midwifery experience in the hospital system and the past 18 out of the system in private practice I have found myself developing all the time in my role as a strong midwife advocate.Maybe not so popular with my colleagues but satisfied in respect to the individual needs of women being recognised, acknowledged andaccepted. There is definitely a professional and community lack of understanding of what midwives actually do.Media emphasis is based on the medical model. The Melbourne Herald Sun today displays afull page picture in the Careers Section of a midwife attending a 'well looking' very pregnant womantied with 2 large belts and Doppler transducersto an electric fetal monitor.Another advert appears frequently with a midwife in full operating room attire, wearing a face mask,holding a new baby.This type of promotion and marketing is what the public perception of midwifery is based on. There is equally a lack of professional and community education and understanding of pregnant, birthing and post birth women and their innate ability. There are very few who feel the strength and freedom tosupportwomen to achieve their innate ability within the hospital system, especially with the restrictive guidelines and policies that limit the practice ofmidwives and theindividual needs of women. This is precisely why 'thinking women' - those women who know what they want will seek out the services of personalised care provided by midwives only, some choose totake it a step further and birth alone or with family and friends. We know the education of obstetricians is fear driven,perpetuates a model of extreme, unnecessary medical interventions onhealthy female bodies and their babies. These'educated'medical men and women rarely experience anyeducation that involvespregnancy and birth 'with women' in the natural and safe environment of home, they will never know what they are missing. Advisedly, it should be a compulsory part of theeducation of all obstetricians and midwives to attendthe care of a 'woman with a midwife' during pregnancy and birthing at home. It is also rare for them toexperiencemidwives empowering women and women using their innate excellenceandrarely do they get to see, smell, hear and sense the woman in labour without all the machinery and bodily invasion and noise of the hospital birthing room. And really why would they be bothered? Because it would meanthe demise of their income, power and dominance over women and midwives, their power and dominance over governments. It would mean giving midwifery back to women and midwives. Without doubt medical/obstetric education and practice ownsthe direct abuse, damage and fear experienced by manywomen. In view of this whywould midwives want to continuefuturistic educationand practice as primary nurses and secondary midwives? I write this without prejudice or offence to anyoneand I do not exclude myself fromwhat I believe is thefragmentation of our profession. Kindest regards, Robyn www.melbmidwifery.comn.au -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Debby MSent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:44 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Ladies if it is any consolation from the point of view of a consumer and a fellow acaedemic. 1. You are right if we trust each other and you respect my wishes whilst making sure I fully understand the implications of what I am asking (demanding in some cases) then I am less likely to sue. A relationship built on trust and understanding will help me to relax which means my outcomes are more likely to be better anyway as I won't be 'fighting' you or be 'frightened' of you during labour. 2. From an acaedemic point of view. No doubt you are taught the basics of anatomy and physiology as part of the course but I would rather a professional who does a course that specifically concentrates on my area of need than a generalist who had done a few extra units post grad - best of all I would prefer it if this study was incorporated with an appreticiship type of learning as a book can never show you what the real thing can
Fw: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Dear Robyn, Powerful, brilliant letter. I second everything you said. And, in fact, the WHO consensus for health promotion 1986 - nearly 20 years ago recommended the same thing and we are still no further forward. love lizmc edited LEGISLATION Midwifery as a distinct and legitimate nationally registeredprofession. thiscould be achievedif we moved toward a strong cohesive body of midwives regardless of place of practice. work toward a Trans Tasman agreement with New Zealand College of Midwives and the Australian College of Midwives. Theexperience of NZCOM gaining national recognition of midwives would be beneficial in working toward developinganAustralian/New ZealandRegister formidwives. The legal details would need to be researched by midwives. Without doubt Midwives should be the providers of care for the majority of healthy, well pregnant women (around 85%). Nurses are the providers of care for the rest of the sick, ill and ageing population. There arevast and extreme differences in the models of care EDUCATION FOR WOMEN midwives need to focusattention to providing information and education for women with emphasis onthewonderful, innate ability they have and what can achieve when they avoid the sick and interventionist medical model of obstetric care. PUBLICITY Women who have been hurt, abused and damaged by the outrageous amount of unnecessary interventions should be encouraged to write and publish -books,Videos, CD's, DVD'sabout their experiences so that more of our future generations can access this information.Obstetric practice is responsible forthe unnecessary interventionist service they provide, little wonder they work in a model embellished by fear.Having said that, I really believe that they do not set out with the intent to harm women they are primarily influenced by their limitations ofknowledgeabout natural healthy pregnancy and birth.We knowonly 15% of women may need some level of medical care and with these 15% only some intervention will be necessary,and most importantly this 15% of women equally need one to one midwife care usually in a more interdisciplinary environment, depending on the extent of their illnessthey may even need some nursing care. PUBLIC AND PROFESSIONAL EDUCATION There is equally a lack of professional and community education and understanding of pregnant, birthing and post birth women it should be a compulsory part of theeducation of all obstetricians and midwives to attendthe care of a 'woman with a midwife' during pregnancy and birthing at home. MEDIA no more distortions!! portrayal of midwives / pregnancy and birth as a normal life event
Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Title: Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Higgorance is a terrible thing in those who think they're not higgorant. Golly, Leslie was breathing before his body was out, and with both my Darlings, I didn't cut the cord until long after the placenta was born, they'd been fed, cuddled, massaged. Good think noone told them they couldn't breathe yet, eh? As for the MO at the bbq, dunno. Scratching my head, aviva
Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
I had the dubious pleasure of sharing last semester with a group of first year medical students, of which one wished to become an obstetrician, but she couldn't tell me why? They were all in my opinion, abnormally focussed on litigation - this was first years What was really scary was they had no idea - they thought the reason we had the highest intervention and cs rates in Australia was because of our lower socio-economic group women. When I asked if they could explain why the healthiest and most affluent women of our community experience the most intervention they were struck dumb. These young women will be unleashed on the community in approx. 7 years; God help us! Carolyn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED]"> Hi again all, had an interesting afternoon today at a BBQ with some old work mates...One friend who I worked at CSIRO with eons ago (past life stuff) like me had a radical change in occupation and went to do nursing...she finished her nursing about 8 years agoanyhowshe brought a friend to the BBQ ...a "work colleague" I just assumed this woman was a nurse too...anyhow got chatting as you do...my friend announced to her "work colleague" that I was doing midwifery.So your a nurse too she asked...No...I'm not a nurse doing the new Bachelor of Midwiferybla bla"Direct entry" my friend announcesone of THOSE midwives who think they are not part of the nursing profession. ...Well that went down REAL well...she always did know how to get my hackles up...thought I had educated her better than that...but can see she has been educated by others than just I...:-(( No not "direct entry" I replied...we don't do direct entry nursingor direct entry medicine...or direct law or accounting...bla bla bla..Anyhow ...finally this "work colleague" couldn't resist and announced that she was a MO...doing her internshipand wanted to know more about "the likes of you" doing midwifery without nursing first"do you do any physiology???" bla bla bla I guess you can imagine the conversation from there... The conversion progressed quickly back to medicine...I wanted to pick her brains about being a beginning practitioner and her thoughts on the health care system...What struck me immediately was her sheer arrogance and lack of understanding of peopleamazingAccording to her the general public are all "fu-k--- nuff nuffs""parents have no parenting skills".."the public all just want to sue us". She was just fascinated to think that I would even consider private practice as a midwife..."too scary - you must be fu--ing mad!!" and "noone from uni is even considering obs and gynae as its just too risky". This woman is 25 years old and already educated with the 'fear factor'. She stated openly that as doctors they are taught at med school that a "trusting relationship with your patients" is non existent as the patient only looks to the doctor fix up their problems and will sue if they don't..and the doctor looks at the patient thinking all you want is to sue meI was totally blown away by this...oh yeh she says..."its the underlying premise in all that we do"..."we have to always be thinking at every moment...are you the one who is going to make my life hell?" How scary is this folks???These are the obs of the future...This woman has this level of fear ingrained into her already..I couldn't believe what I was hearingI was almost lost for words...beleive it or not! Ahhh I said..."that's where midwives have it all over doctorsour basic premise is trustfor if we can't establish our professional relationships on thatlike you guys are discovering...when it all comes tumbling downyou have nothing else" Trust and communication.two important factors in not getting sued I'd reckon..but hey who am Ionly a "nuf nuff" in her eyes... Cheers Tina P.
[ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Hi again all, had an interesting afternoon today at a BBQ with some old work mates...One friend who I worked at CSIRO with eons ago (past life stuff) like me had a radical change in occupation and went to do nursing...she finished her nursing about 8 years agoanyhowshe brought a friend to the BBQ ...a "work colleague" I just assumed this woman was a nurse too...anyhow got chatting as you do...my friend announced to her "work colleague" that I was doing midwifery.So your a nurse too she asked...No...I'm not a nurse doing the new Bachelor of Midwiferybla bla"Direct entry" my friend announcesone of THOSE midwives who think they are not part of the nursing profession. ...Well that went down REAL well...she always did know how to get my hackles up...thought I had educated her better than that...but can see she has been educated by others than just I...:-(( No not "direct entry" I replied...we don't do direct entry nursingor direct entry medicine...or direct law or accounting...bla bla bla..Anyhow ...finally this "work colleague" couldn't resist and announced that she was a MO...doing her internshipand wanted to know more about "the likes of you" doing midwifery without nursing first"do you do any physiology???" bla bla bla I guess you can imagine the conversation from there... The conversion progressed quickly back to medicine...I wanted to pick her brains about being a beginning practitioner and her thoughts on the health care system...What struck me immediately was her sheer arrogance and lack of understanding of peopleamazingAccording to her the general public are all "fu-k--- nuff nuffs""parents have no parenting skills".."the public all just want to sue us". She was just fascinated to think that I would even consider private practice as a midwife..."too scary - you must be fu--ing mad!!" and "noone from uni is even considering obs and gynae as its just too risky". This woman is 25 years old and already educated with the 'fear factor'. She stated openly that as doctors they are taught at med school that a "trusting relationship with your patients" is non existent as the patient only looks to the doctor fix up their problems and will sue if they don't..and the doctor looks at the patient thinking all you want is to sue meI was totally blown away by this...oh yeh she says..."its the underlying premise in all that we do"..."we have to always be thinking at every moment...are you the one who is going to make my life hell?" How scary is this folks???These are the obs of the future...This woman has this level of fear ingrained into her already..I couldn't believe what I was hearingI was almost lost for words...beleive it or not! Ahhh I said..."that's where midwives have it all over doctorsour basic premise is trustfor if we can't establish our professional relationships on thatlike you guys are discovering...when it all comes tumbling downyou have nothing else" Trust and communication.two important factors in not getting sued I'd reckon..but hey who am Ionly a "nuf nuff" in her eyes... Cheers Tina P.
RE: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Title: Message Hey Tina nuff nuff...nah, dont believe that you were lost for words for a minute!!! You still sure managed to say quite a bit!! One thing I'd really like to do is present my (our...Nic and Vic) stuff to the med students/medicos/obstetricians... Vicki -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:17 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Hi again all,had an interesting afternoon today at a BBQ with some old work mates...One friend who I worked at CSIRO with eons ago (past life stuff) like me had a radical change in occupation and went to do nursing...she finished her nursing about 8 years agoanyhowshe brought a friend to the BBQ ...a "work colleague" I just assumed this woman was a nurse too...anyhow got chatting as you do...my friend announced to her "work colleague" that I was doing midwifery.So your a nurse too she asked...No...I'm not a nurse doing the new Bachelor of Midwiferybla bla"Direct entry" my friend announcesone of THOSE midwives who think they are not part of the nursing profession. ...Well that went down REAL well...she always did know how to get my hackles up...thought I had educated her better than that...but can see she has been educated by others than just I...:-((No not "direct entry" I replied...we don't do direct entry nursingor direct entry medicine...or direct law or accounting...bla bla bla..Anyhow ...finally this "work colleague" couldn't resist and announced that she was a MO...doing her internshipand wanted to know more about "the likes of you" doing midwifery without nursing first"do you do any physiology???" bla bla bla I guess you can imagine the conversation from there...The conversion progressed quickly back to medicine...I wanted to pick her brains about being a beginning practitioner and her thoughts on the health care system...What struck me immediately was her sheer arrogance and lack of understanding of peopleamazingAccording to her the general public are all "fu-k--- nuff nuffs""parents have no parenting skills".."the public all just want to sue us". She was just fascinated to think that I would even consider private practice as a midwife..."too scary - you must be fu--ing mad!!" and "noone from uni is even considering obs and gynae as its just too risky". This woman is 25 years old and already educated with the 'fear factor'. She stated openly that as doctors they are taught at med school that a "trusting relationship with your patients" is non existent as the patient only looks to the doctor fix up their problems and will sue if they don't..and the doctor looks at the patient thinking all you want is to sue meI was totally blown away by this...oh yeh she says..."its the underlying premise in all that we do"..."we have to always be thinking at every moment...are you the one who is going to make my life hell?"How scary is this folks???These are the obs of the future...This woman has this level of fear ingrained into her already..I couldn't believe what I was hearingI was almost lost for words...beleive it or not!Ahhh I said..."that's where midwives have it all over doctorsour basic premise is trustfor if we can't establish our professional relationships on thatlike you guys are discovering...when it all comes tumbling downyou have nothing else"Trust and communication.two important factors in not getting sued I'd reckon..but hey who am Ionly a "nuf nuff" in her eyes...Cheers Tina P.
Re: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Title: Message Absolutely Vicki,because if there's no contrast between dehumanized birth vis a vis humanized birth they don't know. I want to help in this regard. Love lizmc - Original Message - From: Vicki Chan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 11:54 PM Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Hey Tina nuff nuff...nah, dont believe that you were lost for words for a minute!!! You still sure managed to say quite a bit!! One thing I'd really like to do is present my (our...Nic and Vic) stuff to the med students/medicos/obstetricians... Vicki -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:17 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Hi again all,had an interesting afternoon today at a BBQ with some old work mates...One friend who I worked at CSIRO with eons ago (past life stuff) like me had a radical change in occupation and went to do nursing...she finished her nursing about 8 years agoanyhowshe brought a friend to the BBQ ...a "work colleague" I just assumed this woman was a nurse too...anyhow got chatting as you do...my friend announced to her "work colleague" that I was doing midwifery.So your a nurse too she asked...No...I'm not a nurse doing the new Bachelor of Midwiferybla bla"Direct entry" my friend announcesone of THOSE midwives who think they are not part of the nursing profession. ...Well that went down REAL well...she always did know how to get my hackles up...thought I had educated her better than that...but can see she has been educated by others than just I...:-((No not "direct entry" I replied...we don't do direct entry nursingor direct entry medicine...or direct law or accounting...bla bla bla..Anyhow ...finally this "work colleague" couldn't resist and announced that she was a MO...doing her internshipand wanted to know more about "the likes of you" doing midwifery without nursing first"do you do any physiology???" bla bla bla I guess you can imagine the conversation from there...The conversion progressed quickly back to medicine...I wanted to pick her brains about being a beginning practitioner and her thoughts on the health care system...What struck me immediately was her sheer arrogance and lack of understanding of peopleamazingAccording to her the general public are all "fu-k--- nuff nuffs""parents have no parenting skills".."the public all just want to sue us". She was just fascinated to think that I would even consider private practice as a midwife..."too scary - you must be fu--ing mad!!" and "noone from uni is even considering obs and gynae as its just too risky". This woman is 25 years old and already educated with the 'fear factor'. She stated openly that as doctors they are taught at med school that a "trusting relationship with your patients" is non existent as the patient only looks to the doctor fix up their problems and will sue if they don't..and the doctor looks at the patient thinking all you want is to sue meI was totally blown away by this...oh yeh she says..."its the underlying premise in all that we do"..."we have to always be thinking at every moment...are you the one who is going to make my life hell?"How scary is this folks???These are the obs of the future...This woman has this level of fear ingrained into her already..I couldn't believe what I was hearingI was almost lost for words...beleive it or not!Ahhh I said..."that's where midwives have it all over doctorsour basic premise is trustfor if we can't establish our professional relationships on thatlike you guys are discovering...when it all comes tumbling downyou have nothing else"Trust and communication.two important factors in not getting sued I'd reckon..but hey who am Ionly a "nuf nuff" in her eyes...Cheers Tina P.
RE: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school!
Ladies if it is any consolation from the point of view of a consumer and a fellow acaedemic. 1. You are right if we trust each other and you respect my wishes whilst making sure I fully understand the implications of what I am asking (demanding in some cases) then I am less likely to sue. A relationship built on trust and understanding will help me to relax which means my outcomes are more likely to be better anyway as I won't be 'fighting' you or be 'frightened' of you during labour. 2. From an acaedemic point of view. No doubt you are taught the basics of anatomy and physiology as part of the course but I would rather a professional who does a course that specifically concentrates on my area of need than a generalist who had done a few extra units post grad - best of all I would prefer it if this study was incorporated with an appreticiship type of learning as a book can never show you what the real thing can. If I can do a Bachelor of Commerce with a major in Accounting (as opposed to Banking or Auditing etc etc) why can't you do a Bachelor of Science or Nursing with a major in Midwifery (rather than general nursing or some other major) - sounds logical to me and it means that initally at least until the experience factor takes over a few years down the track that you will start out as a better midwife. Just as I will be a better accountant for my major studies than I would have been if I had just done general commerce st! ! udies with no major. Besides which midwives never used to do nursing training first in the old days and midwifery is more than just nursing. Midwives are practitioners, nurses serve this role only in extremely rare circumstances. Or if we take the opposite view if midwives should do nursing first as an introduction then maybe doctors should too!! Debby From: "Vicki Chan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 22:54:39 +1000 Hey Tina nuff nuff...nah, dont believe that you were lost for words for a minute!!! You still sure managed to say quite a bit!! One thing I'd really like to do is present my (our...Nic and Vic) stuff to the med students/medicos/obstetricians... Vicki -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 9:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ozmidwifery] what doctors learn at med school! Hi again all, had an interesting afternoon today at a BBQ with some old work mates...One friend who I worked at CSIRO with eons ago (past life stuff) like me had a radical change in occupation and went to do nursing...she finished her nursing about 8 years agoanyhowshe brought a friend to the BBQ ...a "work colleague" I just assumed this woman was a nurse too...anyhow got chatting as you do...my friend announced to her "work colleague" that I was doing midwifery.So your a nurse too she asked...No...I'm not a nurse doing the new Bachelor of Midwiferybla bla"Direct entry" my friend announcesone of THOSE midwives who think they are not part of the nursing profession. ...Well that went down REAL well...she always did know how to get my hackles up...thought I had educated her better than that...but can see she has been educated by others than just I...:-(( No not "direct entry" I replied...we don't do direct entry nursingor direct entry medicine...or direct law or accounting...bla bla bla..Anyhow ...finally this "work colleague" couldn't resist and announced that she was a MO...doing her internshipand wanted to know more about "the likes of you" doing midwifery without nursing first"do you do any physiology???" bla bla bla I guess you can imagine the conversation from there... The conversion progressed quickly back to medicine...I wanted to pick her brains about being a beginning practitioner and her thoughts on the health care system...What struck me immediately was her sheer arrogance and lack of understanding of peopleamazingAccording to her the general public are all "fu-k--- nuff nuffs""parents have no parenting skills".."the public all just want to sue us". She was just fascinated to think that I would even consider private practice as a midwife..."too scary - you must be fu--ing mad!!" and "noone from uni is even considering obs and gynae as its just too risky". This woman is 25 years old and already educated with the 'fear factor'. She stated openly that as doctors they are taught at med school that a "trusting relationship with your patients" is non existent as the patient only looks to the doctor fix up their problems and will sue if they don't..and the doc
