RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
I have to agree with Scott on this one. The use of the term “ethics” is a bit strong here IMHO. Reminds me of children overboard – what’s worse, the whistleblowing from someone exposing a lie, or the actual lie? T. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Wednesday, 15 September 2010 3:01 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic The things I have done, seen and carried out for Microsoft that have eroded the word ethics leaves me sleeping ok at night knowing what I have done is probably the most righteous ethical thing I've done heheh ;) This isn't a black or white argument lots of gray shades ;) On 15/09/2010, at 2:47 PM, Darren Neimke wrote: >> It's exposing a lot of hidden conversations both internally and externally, >> is that good or bad? Which I think is taunting with this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_confidence I'm sure that it is meant well, but it comes across as being rather unethical to me. Darren Neimke darren.nei...@live.com _ Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:31:08 +1000 Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic From: p...@paulstovell.com To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com Hi Scott, >> It's exposing a lot of hidden conversations both internally and externally, >> is that good or bad? I appreciate the work you put in while at Microsoft to make sure issues from guys like me were being raised internally (I mean that). The problem I had with this post isn't that you kicked off a good discussion about HTML5/Silverlight/WPF (which I agree needs to be had), it's that it was done by exposing those internal conversations, without full context or evidence. I care about Microsoft and the direction that they go in, and I care about progress, but I care a lot more about stability. I'm happy to have discussions that help define the direction and create progress, but airing internal issues damages stability. There are plenty of small ISV's and IT departments building Silverlight/WPF applications right now. A few days ago, they were pretty sure Microsoft had it all planned out and they were confident they were going in the right path. Now, assuming they've seen the news articles that picked up on your opinion piece, they're not confident. It puts business at risk. I care about that a lot more than I care about Silverlight v HTML 5 :) If you were just an Average Joe writing an opinion piece, it would be one thing. As a former insider, people take what you say a lot more seriously. And you weren't just airing your own opinions, you were airing opinions you claim to be from Microsoft. It's the difference between Average Joe writing a rant about the mining tax in The Advertiser's opinion section, and Mark Latham writing a rant in the AFR about the internal divides he's overheard within the Labor party on the mining tax. In the first case, no one listens. In the second case, employees at mining companies are worried about their jobs, they stop spending, and small businesses close down. Personally, I care less about the hurt feelings of governments and mining companies, and a lot about small businesses. I'd argue that for the sake of stability (plus just being a nice guy), it's better to leave internal conversations internal. I hope that explains where I'm coming from. I'm grateful for the work you did (and perhaps still do) as an influencer within Microsoft to improve things. I just don't think it was a good thing for the market to do it the way you did. Paul On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Scott Barnes wrote: Hmm, I'm a little shocked of all people you wrote the below Paul ? (i mean that with sincerity). You and i have had a few discussions around this space, you've shown frustration that Silverlight has gotten more attention than WPF and so on. The reality is that whether you agree or disagree with the way i went about the approach I took, at the heart of it all is that kind of conversation that yourself, others and myself have had over and over. I initially started out with some venting tweets sitting in LAX after reading yet another "great feedback, lets take that offline" dismissal from some folks on an issue that another community member put forward. I still stand by my decision as being one of good intentions for the greater good of WPF/Silverlight and it's created a polarizing conversation around the globe at the moment on this subject. It's exposing a lot of hidden conversations both internally and externally, is that good or bad? i honestly don't know, but i do know it needs to be had. I knew the moment i posted it i'd expose myself t
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
The things I have done, seen and carried out for Microsoft that have eroded the word ethics leaves me sleeping ok at night knowing what I have done is probably the most righteous ethical thing I've done heheh ;) This isn't a black or white argument lots of gray shades ;) On 15/09/2010, at 2:47 PM, Darren Neimke wrote: > >> It's exposing a lot of hidden conversations both internally and > >> externally, is that good or bad? > > Which I think is taunting with this... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_confidence > > I'm sure that it is meant well, but it comes across as being rather unethical > to me. > > > Darren Neimke > darren.nei...@live.com > > > > > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:31:08 +1000 > Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > From: p...@paulstovell.com > To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > > Hi Scott, > > >> It's exposing a lot of hidden conversations both internally and > >> externally, is that good or bad? > > I appreciate the work you put in while at Microsoft to make sure issues from > guys like me were being raised internally (I mean that). The problem I had > with this post isn't that you kicked off a good discussion about > HTML5/Silverlight/WPF (which I agree needs to be had), it's that it was done > by exposing those internal conversations, without full context or evidence. > > I care about Microsoft and the direction that they go in, and I care about > progress, but I care a lot more about stability. I'm happy to have > discussions that help define the direction and create progress, but airing > internal issues damages stability. There are plenty of small ISV's and IT > departments building Silverlight/WPF applications right now. A few days ago, > they were pretty sure Microsoft had it all planned out and they were > confident they were going in the right path. Now, assuming they've seen the > news articles that picked up on your opinion piece, they're not confident. It > puts business at risk. I care about that a lot more than I care about > Silverlight v HTML 5 :) > > If you were just an Average Joe writing an opinion piece, it would be one > thing. As a former insider, people take what you say a lot more seriously. > And you weren't just airing your own opinions, you were airing opinions you > claim to be from Microsoft. > > It's the difference between Average Joe writing a rant about the mining tax > in The Advertiser's opinion section, and Mark Latham writing a rant in the > AFR about the internal divides he's overheard within the Labor party on the > mining tax. In the first case, no one listens. In the second case, employees > at mining companies are worried about their jobs, they stop spending, and > small businesses close down. Personally, I care less about the hurt feelings > of governments and mining companies, and a lot about small businesses. I'd > argue that for the sake of stability (plus just being a nice guy), it's > better to leave internal conversations internal. > > I hope that explains where I'm coming from. I'm grateful for the work you did > (and perhaps still do) as an influencer within Microsoft to improve things. I > just don't think it was a good thing for the market to do it the way you did. > > Paul > > > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Scott Barnes wrote: > Hmm, I'm a little shocked of all people you wrote the below Paul ? (i > mean that with sincerity). > > You and i have had a few discussions around this space, you've shown > frustration that Silverlight has gotten more attention than WPF and so > on. The reality is that whether you agree or disagree with the way i > went about the approach I took, at the heart of it all is that kind of > conversation that yourself, others and myself have had over and over. > I initially started out with some venting tweets sitting in LAX after > reading yet another "great feedback, lets take that offline" dismissal > from some folks on an issue that another community member put forward. > I still stand by my decision as being one of good intentions for the > greater good of WPF/Silverlight and it's created a polarizing > conversation around the globe at the moment on this subject. It's > exposing a lot of hidden conversations both internally and externally, > is that good or bad? i honestly don't know, but i do know it needs to > be had. > > I knew the moment i posted it i'd expose myself to first character > attacks but also yeah, it does put parts of my career into a red flag > area -
RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
>> It's exposing a lot of hidden conversations both internally and externally, >> is that good or bad? Which I think is taunting with this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_confidence I'm sure that it is meant well, but it comes across as being rather unethical to me. Darren neimkedarren.nei...@live.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 14:31:08 +1000 Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic From: p...@paulstovell.com To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com Hi Scott, >> It's exposing a lot of hidden conversations both internally and externally, >> is that good or bad? I appreciate the work you put in while at Microsoft to make sure issues from guys like me were being raised internally (I mean that). The problem I had with this post isn't that you kicked off a good discussion about HTML5/Silverlight/WPF (which I agree needs to be had), it's that it was done by exposing those internal conversations, without full context or evidence. I care about Microsoft and the direction that they go in, and I care about progress, but I care a lot more about stability. I'm happy to have discussions that help define the direction and create progress, but airing internal issues damages stability. There are plenty of small ISV's and IT departments building Silverlight/WPF applications right now. A few days ago, they were pretty sure Microsoft had it all planned out and they were confident they were going in the right path. Now, assuming they've seen the news articles that picked up on your opinion piece, they're not confident. It puts business at risk. I care about that a lot more than I care about Silverlight v HTML 5 :) If you were just an Average Joe writing an opinion piece, it would be one thing. As a former insider, people take what you say a lot more seriously. And you weren't just airing your own opinions, you were airing opinions you claim to be from Microsoft. It's the difference between Average Joe writing a rant about the mining tax in The Advertiser's opinion section, and Mark Latham writing a rant in the AFR about the internal divides he's overheard within the Labor party on the mining tax. In the first case, no one listens. In the second case, employees at mining companies are worried about their jobs, they stop spending, and small businesses close down. Personally, I care less about the hurt feelings of governments and mining companies, and a lot about small businesses. I'd argue that for the sake of stability (plus just being a nice guy), it's better to leave internal conversations internal. I hope that explains where I'm coming from. I'm grateful for the work you did (and perhaps still do) as an influencer within Microsoft to improve things. I just don't think it was a good thing for the market to do it the way you did. Paul On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 1:45 PM, Scott Barnes wrote: Hmm, I'm a little shocked of all people you wrote the below Paul ? (i mean that with sincerity). You and i have had a few discussions around this space, you've shown frustration that Silverlight has gotten more attention than WPF and so on. The reality is that whether you agree or disagree with the way i went about the approach I took, at the heart of it all is that kind of conversation that yourself, others and myself have had over and over. I initially started out with some venting tweets sitting in LAX after reading yet another "great feedback, lets take that offline" dismissal from some folks on an issue that another community member put forward. I still stand by my decision as being one of good intentions for the greater good of WPF/Silverlight and it's created a polarizing conversation around the globe at the moment on this subject. It's exposing a lot of hidden conversations both internally and externally, is that good or bad? i honestly don't know, but i do know it needs to be had. I knew the moment i posted it i'd expose myself to first character attacks but also yeah, it does put parts of my career into a red flag area - yet, thats ok, as long as we get to the root of what dead vs alive is. You state that WPF is done? really, engineering wise sure, i can argue that with you - there are some things i'd like to still see but that aside, WPF is done. Now what? you've built it how do you then go to market with it? market opportunity is 6million+ developers and we are probably sitting at around 7% of that... is that done? when was the last event you saw WPF being shouted from the roof tops about this year? How was teched? get much out of the amounts of WPF discussions there? What's the last Windows development campaign you saw? Seen any Evangelists talk about WPF recently at your local User Group? Which is more popular, Wp7 or WPF at the moment? W
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
uddenly unsure of what's going to happen to the > > stacks they're building on. That's not good for the market, and I fail to > > see what "good" comes out of a post like this. > > Paul > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Scott Barnes > > wrote: > >> > >> Nice post Jordan ;) > >> My thoughts personally is there is room for both and I'm on record by > >> saying msft should consider using sl + ie together to handle the html5 > >> execution silently - it drives ubiquity and upholds both sides of the isle. > >> Wpf has had little or next to no investments beyond what the vs2010 team > >> needed and some basics from variety of community sources if any. It's had > >> zero marketing budget and wasn't even mentioned as a developer story in > >> win7 > >> launches. Declaring it dead is easy, burying the corpse is the hard part ;) > >> Win8 team aren't taking bets on it so say what u will but either I am > >> right or msft tomorrow makes an official declaration of how they plan to > >> pump some momentum behind it. Either outcome is pushing the old with new > >> forward for a greater good and won't be suddenly dumped on everyones laps > >> at > >> a point where it's too late to steer a different direction. > >> Dead doesn't mean instantly gone it can take years - look at xp. It just > >> signals to all "get off or else" is all :/ > >> I am pro wpf / silverlight btw and want these to continue to grow > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from my mini iPad nano > >> (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this > >> device as small keys) > >> On 15/09/2010, at 11:17 AM, Jordan Knight wrote: > >> > >> I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. > >> Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going > >> to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to > >> invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... > >> My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation > >> the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins > >> like > >> SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - > >> SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are > >> already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and > >> give > >> them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and > >> consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available > >> through standards. > >> But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. > >> Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and > >> tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a > >> playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth > >> streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi > >> bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome > >> tooling. > >> Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in > >> an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. > >> And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is > >> dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX > >> and > >> consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is > >> _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for > >> HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new > >> device? > >> http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/)... > >> I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer > >> app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we > >> need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). > >> HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on > >> my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as > >> new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be > >> betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... > >> Cheap Surfaces, every shop...
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
n mentioned as a developer story in > win7 > >> launches. Declaring it dead is easy, burying the corpse is the hard part > ;) > >> Win8 team aren't taking bets on it so say what u will but either I am > >> right or msft tomorrow makes an official declaration of how they plan to > >> pump some momentum behind it. Either outcome is pushing the old with new > >> forward for a greater good and won't be suddenly dumped on everyones > laps at > >> a point where it's too late to steer a different direction. > >> Dead doesn't mean instantly gone it can take years - look at xp. It just > >> signals to all "get off or else" is all :/ > >> I am pro wpf / silverlight btw and want these to continue to grow > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from my mini iPad nano > >> (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and > this > >> device as small keys) > >> On 15/09/2010, at 11:17 AM, Jordan Knight wrote: > >> > >> I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. > >> Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was > going > >> to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to > >> invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... > >> My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation > >> the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins > like > >> SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - > >> SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features > are > >> already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and > give > >> them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, > and > >> consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available > >> through standards. > >> But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. > >> Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and > >> tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a > >> playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth > >> streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi > >> bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + > awesome > >> tooling. > >> Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG > in > >> an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. > >> And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF > is > >> dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX > and > >> consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is > >> _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for > >> HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new > >> device? > http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/). > .. > >> I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer > >> app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And > we > >> need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). > >> HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working > on > >> my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... > as > >> new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll > be > >> betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... > >> Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. > >> My 2 cents :) > >> > >> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie > wrote: > >>> > >>> Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with > >>> many of Scott’s points. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and > >>> Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 > >>> > >>> http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Tatham Oddie > >>> > >>> au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie > >>> > >>> If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a > computer, > >>> not a typewriter. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com > >>> [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of > >>> danlaz...@arcamis.com > >>> Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM > >>> To: ozSilverlight > >>> Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - > >>> http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> ozsilverlight mailing list > >>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > >>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > >>> > >> > >> ___ > >> ozsilverlight mailing list > >> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > >> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > >> > >> ___ > >> ozsilverlight mailing list > >> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > >> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul Stovell > > > > ___ > > ozsilverlight mailing list > > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > > > > > ___ > ozsilverlight mailing list > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > -- Paul Stovell ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Jordan (XAMLing), Michael Kordahi (Microsoft), Andrew Coates (Microsoft) and I spoke about this. :) http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 I'll also be covering this question /again/ at the upcoming Web Directions South conference: http://south10.webdirections.org/program/big-picture#practicing-web-standard s-in-the-large -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you're printing this email, you're doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. -Original Message- From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 15 September 2010 2:09 PM To: 'ozSilverlight' Subject: RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Gosh, you guys really need to write shorter email, < 300 words would be good... But seriously, is HTML5 going to load into different browsers, including the legacy ones? That is important. If it isn't, then I can still see a market for SL. T. ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Gosh, you guys really need to write shorter email, < 300 words would be good... But seriously, is HTML5 going to load into different browsers, including the legacy ones? That is important. If it isn't, then I can still see a market for SL. T. ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
"A reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. An unreasonable man persists in attempting to adapt his environment to suit himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw. Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Perry Stathopoulos wrote: > They is Microsoft. > I don’t work for MS, so I don’t not its internals, however I’ve worked for > several large corporations and I’m all too familiar with > inter-department/division power struggles. This is nothing new. > > Realistically I’m sure each division is given its budget, timelines and > deliverables. That is decided at higher level, which each division must try > to influence the decision maker to get what he/she wants. Again nothing new > here. > > As outsiders, we can try to influence the decisions that MS takes. > Priorities change in corporations all the time in response to market > conditions and customer demands, again nothing new. However, I keep thinking > about this quote: "If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would > have said a faster horse." -Henry Ford > > Don’t get me wrong I love SL especially compared to Flash. However HTML does > have many advantages. I’m in upper management for a web based company, with > tens of millions of visitors per day. So, I have a very good idea of what is > going on in the web world including mobile web and what is required to make > things work at the speed of Internet. > > In the Intranet world, things are very different there. MS pretty much owns > that, but on the Internet, far from it. IMO that distinction is often not > talked about. There are many things that I would do on a company’s intranet, > that should simply never be done on a public Internet (think latency and > network speed you pour Aussies ;-p) > > While the official HTML5 spec is a long way to being ratified, it’s already > here. With IE9, all major browsers will support many of the major HTML5 > elements. So yes Microsoft is investing in HTML5 because it wants to be > taken as a serious Internet player. > > > From: Scott Barnes > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:05 PM > To: ozSilverlight > Cc: ozSilverlight > Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > > Whe u say "they" who are u referring to? Developer division or ie / windows > team? And who has right of way in terms of budgets and launch timelines? > Msft has loads of money but if you have ever sat in a review of the business > etc u will note that being held fiscally accountable is very important. > > 200+ devs are on sl today how many do u think work on IE? Or the variety of > tooling and also how do u justify the double ups between sl and html5 espec > when the later hasn't got an audience really defined yet? Where do u put > your $100 spends etc? Who foots the bill on marketing it all? Windows? > Office? Vstudio? Expression? Do u know expression teams don't report to the > same org tree as silverlight teams do? > > It's great to say "do both" but sit down crunch the numbers and factor in > divisional politics and welcome to he internal reality of Microsoft > > -- > Sent from my mini iPad nano > (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this > device as small keys) > On 15/09/2010, at 11:50 AM, "Perry Stathopoulos" wrote: > > First, everyone should also read Mike Taulty’s post: > http://mtaulty.com/CommunityServer/blogs/mike_taultys_blog/archive/2010/09/10/iphone-4-is-dead.aspx > > Another thing that I didn’t see too much in all this hoopla is talking about > the obvious that Silverlight is reaching maturity (not end of life, but > normal development cycles vs. double time). MS arrived late to the party in > online video streaming. IE is nothing but a punching bag online, so they > need to step it up if they want to be taken seriously as an online leader. > They surely don’t want to be late again with HTML5. Yes it makes sense to > invest heavily early in this new shiny object, lest they arrive late again. > > > From: Jordan Knight > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:17 PM > To: ozSilverlight > Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > > I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. > > Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to > close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... > rather short sighted given hindsight... > > My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the > features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL > and F
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
gt;> I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer >> app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we >> need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). >> HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on >> my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as >> new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be >> betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... >> Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. >> My 2 cents :) >> >> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie wrote: >>> >>> Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with >>> many of Scott’s points. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and >>> Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 >>> >>> http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Tatham Oddie >>> >>> au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie >>> >>> If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, >>> not a typewriter. >>> >>> >>> >>> From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com >>> [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of >>> danlaz...@arcamis.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM >>> To: ozSilverlight >>> Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic >>> >>> >>> >>> Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - >>> http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> ozsilverlight mailing list >>> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com >>> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight >>> >> >> ___ >> ozsilverlight mailing list >> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com >> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight >> >> ___ >> ozsilverlight mailing list >> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com >> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight >> > > > > -- > Paul Stovell > > ___ > ozsilverlight mailing list > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > > ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
... to bump that chain of thought - plugins are easer to install / get installed than browsers. And, plugins don't wreck corporate apps built around SOE (i.e. upgrade from IE6). I like your points John - ubiquity is the key to the reach argument. On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:34 PM, John OBrien wrote: > The sad part about HTML5 is all the awesome innovative stuff we've seen > out of MSFT powered by Silverlight will now have to been slowly ported over > HTML5 and the loser is new innovation. > Great that it will have more reach but from an innovation point of view it > sucks. Example Photosynth, sure a pure HTML5 version would be great but it > will cost all the dev resources to do it and we don't get anything new. It > is a real pity that the right decision is to spend your time on boring HTML5 > rather then doing new work that has never been done before in Silverlight. > > >From a business point of view how do you allocate your resources for a > RIA? > > 1) HTML4 / AJAX - greatest reach for some time, limited functionality > 2) HTML5 - potential for greater reach, build RIAs, limited tooling > 3) SL - suffer from the plugin install issue, richer experience, good > tools. > > My guess is conservative managers are going to choose 1+2, if not just 1 > and "wait till 90%+ of devices have HTML5 caps". > > -- > CC: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > From: scott.bar...@gmail.com > > Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:05:52 +1000 > To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > > > Whe u say "they" who are u referring to? Developer division or ie / windows > team? And who has right of way in terms of budgets and launch timelines? > Msft has loads of money but if you have ever sat in a review of the business > etc u will note that being held fiscally accountable is very important. > > 200+ devs are on sl today how many do u think work on IE? Or the variety of > tooling and also how do u justify the double ups between sl and html5 espec > when the later hasn't got an audience really defined yet? Where do u put > your $100 spends etc? Who foots the bill on marketing it all? Windows? > Office? Vstudio? Expression? Do u know expression teams don't report to the > same org tree as silverlight teams do? > > It's great to say "do both" but sit down crunch the numbers and factor in > divisional politics and welcome to he internal reality of Microsoft > > -- > Sent from my mini iPad nano > (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this > device as small keys) > > On 15/09/2010, at 11:50 AM, "Perry Stathopoulos" > wrote: > >First, everyone should also read Mike Taulty’s post: > > http://mtaulty.com/CommunityServer/blogs/mike_taultys_blog/archive/2010/09/10/iphone-4-is-dead.aspx > > Another thing that I didn’t see too much in all this hoopla is talking > about the obvious that Silverlight is reaching maturity (not end of life, > but normal development cycles vs. double time). MS arrived late to the party > in online video streaming. IE is nothing but a punching bag online, so they > need to step it up if they want to be taken seriously as an online leader. > They surely don’t want to be late again with HTML5. Yes it makes sense to > invest heavily early in this new shiny object, lest they arrive late again. > > > *From:* Jordan Knight > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:17 PM > *To:* ozSilverlight > *Subject:* Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > > I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. > > Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going > to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to > invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... > > My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the > features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL > and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash > trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out > there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the > ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers > win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through > standards. > > But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. > > Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and > tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a > playground for great ideas. 3D video.
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
available through > standards. > > But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. > > Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and > tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a > playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth > streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi > bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome > tooling. > > Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in > an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. > > And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is > dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and > consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is > _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for > HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? > <http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/> > http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/ > )... > > I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer > app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we > need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). > > HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on > my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as > new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be > betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... > > Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. > > My 2 cents :) > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie < > tat...@oddie.com.au> wrote: > >> Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with many >> of Scott’s points. >> >> >> >> Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and >> Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: >> >> >> >> <http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256> >> http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 >> >> <http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260> >> http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Tatham Oddie >> >> au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie >> >> If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, >> not a typewriter. >> >> >> >> *From:* >> ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com >> [mailto: >> ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] *On Behalf Of >> * >> danlaz...@arcamis.com >> *Sent:* Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM >> *To:* ozSilverlight >> *Subject:* Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic >> >> >> >> Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - >> <http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363> >> http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 >> >> >> >> Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer >> >> >> >> ___ >> ozsilverlight mailing list >> ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com >> <http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight> >> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight >> >> > ___ > ozsilverlight mailing list > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > > > ___ > ozsilverlight mailing list > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > > -- Paul Stovell ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
They is Microsoft. I don’t work for MS, so I don’t not its internals, however I’ve worked for several large corporations and I’m all too familiar with inter-department/division power struggles. This is nothing new. Realistically I’m sure each division is given its budget, timelines and deliverables. That is decided at higher level, which each division must try to influence the decision maker to get what he/she wants. Again nothing new here. As outsiders, we can try to influence the decisions that MS takes. Priorities change in corporations all the time in response to market conditions and customer demands, again nothing new. However, I keep thinking about this quote: "If I had asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse." -Henry Ford Don’t get me wrong I love SL especially compared to Flash. However HTML does have many advantages. I’m in upper management for a web based company, with tens of millions of visitors per day. So, I have a very good idea of what is going on in the web world including mobile web and what is required to make things work at the speed of Internet. In the Intranet world, things are very different there. MS pretty much owns that, but on the Internet, far from it. IMO that distinction is often not talked about. There are many things that I would do on a company’s intranet, that should simply never be done on a public Internet (think latency and network speed you pour Aussies ;-p) While the official HTML5 spec is a long way to being ratified, it’s already here. With IE9, all major browsers will support many of the major HTML5 elements. So yes Microsoft is investing in HTML5 because it wants to be taken as a serious Internet player. From: Scott Barnes Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:05 PM To: ozSilverlight Cc: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Whe u say "they" who are u referring to? Developer division or ie / windows team? And who has right of way in terms of budgets and launch timelines? Msft has loads of money but if you have ever sat in a review of the business etc u will note that being held fiscally accountable is very important. 200+ devs are on sl today how many do u think work on IE? Or the variety of tooling and also how do u justify the double ups between sl and html5 espec when the later hasn't got an audience really defined yet? Where do u put your $100 spends etc? Who foots the bill on marketing it all? Windows? Office? Vstudio? Expression? Do u know expression teams don't report to the same org tree as silverlight teams do? It's great to say "do both" but sit down crunch the numbers and factor in divisional politics and welcome to he internal reality of Microsoft -- Sent from my mini iPad nano (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this device as small keys) On 15/09/2010, at 11:50 AM, "Perry Stathopoulos" wrote: First, everyone should also read Mike Taulty’s post: http://mtaulty.com/CommunityServer/blogs/mike_taultys_blog/archive/2010/09/10/iphone-4-is-dead.aspx Another thing that I didn’t see too much in all this hoopla is talking about the obvious that Silverlight is reaching maturity (not end of life, but normal development cycles vs. double time). MS arrived late to the party in online video streaming. IE is nothing but a punching bag online, so they need to step it up if they want to be taken seriously as an online leader. They surely don’t want to be late again with HTML5. Yes it makes sense to invest heavily early in this new shiny object, lest they arrive late again. From: Jordan Knight Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:17 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, ada
RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
The sad part about HTML5 is all the awesome innovative stuff we've seen out of MSFT powered by Silverlight will now have to been slowly ported over HTML5 and the loser is new innovation. Great that it will have more reach but from an innovation point of view it sucks. Example Photosynth, sure a pure HTML5 version would be great but it will cost all the dev resources to do it and we don't get anything new. It is a real pity that the right decision is to spend your time on boring HTML5 rather then doing new work that has never been done before in Silverlight. >From a business point of view how do you allocate your resources for a RIA? 1) HTML4 / AJAX - greatest reach for some time, limited functionality 2) HTML5 - potential for greater reach, build RIAs, limited tooling 3) SL - suffer from the plugin install issue, richer experience, good tools. My guess is conservative managers are going to choose 1+2, if not just 1 and "wait till 90%+ of devices have HTML5 caps". CC: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com From: scott.bar...@gmail.com Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:05:52 +1000 To: ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com Whe u say "they" who are u referring to? Developer division or ie / windows team? And who has right of way in terms of budgets and launch timelines? Msft has loads of money but if you have ever sat in a review of the business etc u will note that being held fiscally accountable is very important. 200+ devs are on sl today how many do u think work on IE? Or the variety of tooling and also how do u justify the double ups between sl and html5 espec when the later hasn't got an audience really defined yet? Where do u put your $100 spends etc? Who foots the bill on marketing it all? Windows? Office? Vstudio? Expression? Do u know expression teams don't report to the same org tree as silverlight teams do? It's great to say "do both" but sit down crunch the numbers and factor in divisional politics and welcome to he internal reality of Microsoft --Sent from my mini iPad nano (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this device as small keys) On 15/09/2010, at 11:50 AM, "Perry Stathopoulos" wrote: First, everyone should also read Mike Taulty’s post: http://mtaulty.com/CommunityServer/blogs/mike_taultys_blog/archive/2010/09/10/iphone-4-is-dead.aspx Another thing that I didn’t see too much in all this hoopla is talking about the obvious that Silverlight is reaching maturity (not end of life, but normal development cycles vs. double time). MS arrived late to the party in online video streaming. IE is nothing but a punching bag online, so they need to step it up if they want to be taken seriously as an online leader. They surely don’t want to be late again with HTML5. Yes it makes sense to invest heavily early in this new shiny object, lest they arrive late again. From: Jordan Knight Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:17 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? http://www
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Whe u say "they" who are u referring to? Developer division or ie / windows team? And who has right of way in terms of budgets and launch timelines? Msft has loads of money but if you have ever sat in a review of the business etc u will note that being held fiscally accountable is very important. 200+ devs are on sl today how many do u think work on IE? Or the variety of tooling and also how do u justify the double ups between sl and html5 espec when the later hasn't got an audience really defined yet? Where do u put your $100 spends etc? Who foots the bill on marketing it all? Windows? Office? Vstudio? Expression? Do u know expression teams don't report to the same org tree as silverlight teams do? It's great to say "do both" but sit down crunch the numbers and factor in divisional politics and welcome to he internal reality of Microsoft -- Sent from my mini iPad nano (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this device as small keys) On 15/09/2010, at 11:50 AM, "Perry Stathopoulos" wrote: > First, everyone should also read Mike Taulty’s post: > http://mtaulty.com/CommunityServer/blogs/mike_taultys_blog/archive/2010/09/10/iphone-4-is-dead.aspx > > Another thing that I didn’t see too much in all this hoopla is talking about > the obvious that Silverlight is reaching maturity (not end of life, but > normal development cycles vs. double time). MS arrived late to the party in > online video streaming. IE is nothing but a punching bag online, so they need > to step it up if they want to be taken seriously as an online leader. They > surely don’t want to be late again with HTML5. Yes it makes sense to invest > heavily early in this new shiny object, lest they arrive late again. > > > From: Jordan Knight > Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:17 PM > To: ozSilverlight > Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > > I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. > > Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to > close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... > rather short sighted given hindsight... > > My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the > features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL > and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash > trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out > there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the > ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers > win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through > standards. > > But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. > > Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech > that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground > for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the > SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid > development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. > > Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an > app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. > > And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is > dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and > consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is > _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 > spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? > http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/)... > > I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer > app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we > need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). > > HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on my > iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as new > screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be > betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... > > Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. > > My 2 cents :) > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie wrote: > Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with many of > Scott’s points. > > > > Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and > Silverlight a
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
First, everyone should also read Mike Taulty’s post: http://mtaulty.com/CommunityServer/blogs/mike_taultys_blog/archive/2010/09/10/iphone-4-is-dead.aspx Another thing that I didn’t see too much in all this hoopla is talking about the obvious that Silverlight is reaching maturity (not end of life, but normal development cycles vs. double time). MS arrived late to the party in online video streaming. IE is nothing but a punching bag online, so they need to step it up if they want to be taken seriously as an online leader. They surely don’t want to be late again with HTML5. Yes it makes sense to invest heavily early in this new shiny object, lest they arrive late again. From: Jordan Knight Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:17 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/)... I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. My 2 cents :) On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie wrote: Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with many of Scott’s points. Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Saying any technology is dead if plain foolish imo. Software platforms don't die, they just become less popular. Hell, even when the platform vendor stops supporting it, the platforms continue to be in use. HTML5 looks like another Java to me. Sure it will run on many different browser/OS platforms. However the HTML5 standards committees and the politics involved in keeping everyone happy from a API perspective will mean that HTML5 will evolve extremely slowly. Seriously, does anyone really believe that Google, Microsoft, Apple et al are actually going to agree on a common HTML5 standard? Really? What's more likely is that Microsoft puts out an IE-only MSHTML5 (basic HTML5 + MS "extensions"), Google does the same with a GHTML5 for Chrome and Apple/Mozilla get left trying to comply with everyone else. And in terms of the future of Silverlight/WPF. Regardless of the cultural/political issues in Microsoft, they are too far down the XAML/Blend/VS 2010 path now to back away from it. And even if they dropped WPF/Silverlight tomorrow, development on these platforms would continue. Look at the Windows Forms space. There is still heaps of development and use of that platform even though WPF has been around for 5 years now. Too many companies & people have invested into WPF/Silverlight to drop it. Maybe in 5-10 years when the dev world has got ROI from WPF/Silverlight, then MS might be able to entice them over to HTML5/whatever. Cheers Paul From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of Jordan Knight Sent: Wednesday, 15 September 2010 11:18 AM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-b uxton-surface-will-be-in-h/)... I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. My 2 cents :) On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie wrote: Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn't agree with many of Scott's points. Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you're printing this email, you're doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Nice post Jordan ;) My thoughts personally is there is room for both and I'm on record by saying msft should consider using sl + ie together to handle the html5 execution silently - it drives ubiquity and upholds both sides of the isle. Wpf has had little or next to no investments beyond what the vs2010 team needed and some basics from variety of community sources if any. It's had zero marketing budget and wasn't even mentioned as a developer story in win7 launches. Declaring it dead is easy, burying the corpse is the hard part ;) Win8 team aren't taking bets on it so say what u will but either I am right or msft tomorrow makes an official declaration of how they plan to pump some momentum behind it. Either outcome is pushing the old with new forward for a greater good and won't be suddenly dumped on everyones laps at a point where it's too late to steer a different direction. Dead doesn't mean instantly gone it can take years - look at xp. It just signals to all "get off or else" is all :/ I am pro wpf / silverlight btw and want these to continue to grow -- Sent from my mini iPad nano (excuse my spilling and grammar as I have giant man like fingers and this device as small keys) On 15/09/2010, at 11:17 AM, Jordan Knight wrote: > I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. > > Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to > close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... > rather short sighted given hindsight... > > My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the > features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL > and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash > trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out > there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the > ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers > win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through > standards. > > But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. > > Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech > that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground > for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the > SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid > development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. > > Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an > app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. > > And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is > dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and > consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is > _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 > spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? > http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/)... > > I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer > app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we > need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). > > HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on my > iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as new > screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be > betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... > > Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. > > My 2 cents :) > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie wrote: > Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with many of > Scott’s points. > > > > Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and > Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: > > > > http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 > > http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 > > > > -- > > Tatham Oddie > > au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie > > If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, not > a typewriter. > > > > From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com > [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of > danlaz...@arcamis.com > Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM > To: ozSilverlight > Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silver
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
I'd also like to raise some points RE HTML5 and WPF/SL etc. Back in the 1890's the head of the US patent office declared he was going to close the office because he thought that there was nothing left to invent... rather short sighted given hindsight... My point is that HTML5 will bring to the masses through standardisation the features that consumers have come to demand thanks to agile plugins like SL and Flash. To quote the SL team blog post that flamed the debate - SL/Flash trailblaze and HTML5 will then pave the road. These features are already out there and pervasive (demanded) - so why not standardise and give them the ultimate reach they deserve! Bravo - it's a really good idea, and consumers win. The stuff that was around years ago will now be available through standards. But there is new stuff now... that stuff has been done - tech moves on. Where consumers *also* win is that SL and Flash are all about ideas and tech that doesn't/didn't exist yet + getting it to market fast. It's a playground for great ideas. 3D video. Surround sound, adaptive smooth streaming (for the SL = video zealots). Multitouch, multi screen, multi bloody everything. Rapid development (through Des/Dev workflows) + awesome tooling. Consumers like apps too remember. They would much rather read their EPG in an app than have a link to a web page on their desktop. And what about other ideas that don't really exist yet. To say that WPF is dead and/or dying - well I say to you - there is more to the world of UX and consumerism than just the browser/current thinking. I think that WPF is _still_ ahead of its time. Tech/devices are moving way too fast for HTML5 spec to keep up with (what about this cheap new device? http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/13/microsoft-principal-researcher-bill-buxton-surface-will-be-in-h/ )... I think the HTML5 vs the world debate is forgetting about the consumer app/hi-tech/new shiny device market - it will/(*is*) be hooge! And we need to keep the consumers happy (which means being nimble!). HTML5 is great, bringing what we demand to spec. Yaay for Vimeo working on my iPhone! Plugins are great bringing us the latest tech quickly. And... as new screens are added (Surface, phones etc)... then you can be sure i'll be betting the farm on ripping out apps quickly on tech like WPF... Cheap Surfaces, every shop... WPF = killer. My 2 cents :) On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tatham Oddie wrote: > Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn’t agree with many > of Scott’s points. > > > > Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and > Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: > > > > http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 > > http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 > > > > -- > > Tatham Oddie > > au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie > > If you’re printing this email, you’re doing it wrong. This is a computer, > not a typewriter. > > > > *From:* ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto: > ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] *On Behalf Of * > danlaz...@arcamis.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM > *To:* ozSilverlight > *Subject:* Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > > > > Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - > http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 > > > > Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer > > > > ___ > ozsilverlight mailing list > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > > ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Hi All :) Let me clarify my motivation as i have with Scott Guthrie and the rest of the teams. I sent the post/tweets into the wild based off what others within the company have told me time and time again. Majority of what I've stated isn't actually my opinion of how things should be or why WPF is dead, all i can say is it's been left dormant and the Windows 8 team have higher grander plans around the future of Silverlight and HTML5 that don't bode well for Silverlight or WPF and it has nothing to do really with technical merit or customer needs. Its a hungry division and they aren't afraid to go aggressive when it counts given its marketshare / share price needs. The reason I dumped this publicly isn't to grind an axe or two, like many of you on this list in the past who have come to either myself or others within Microsoft with feedback or "can't you guys..." style remarks, the reality is it falls on deaf ears. We are left with a simple choice, do you keep lobbying internally to folks who have consistently shown absolute zero interest unless it fits in with their fiscal metrics or do you simply say enough, try another tactic. Whether you agree with this or not, i choose to shake things up differently and as someone who's spent the last few years listening, interacting and trying my absolute best to put allot of you're ideas, needs and help requests into the hands of change agents, in the end given the top-down bureaucracy within Microsoft it's just simply a fools errand. I now have Microsoft's full attention along with many in the industry. Whilst some of you will launch into some personal attacks over this (which is fine, emotions are high) in the end, this is going to be a good thing for the future of WPF/Silverlight as every journalist and industry professional world wide now has a question above their heads.. "where is this all going, and is it true you're going to stop working on Silverlight/WPF". Bottom line is, i'm taking one for the team on this one both externally and internally. Corneliu thx for your non-personal attack, always great to see a level headed discussion from you - as per usual :D Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.riagenic.com ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
I think everyone should try to keep their cool. Although I may not agree with Scott's *opinion*, it is his opinion in some sense, and everyone has a right to say whatever they want, whether it's right or wrong. I didn't read his entire post, but I think it's definitely a combination of being disgruntled and confused with Microsoft. So long as everyone still has faith in the technology and are not swayed with comments like his in the community, there's really no merit for a flame war, even if he started it. I definitely don't see WPF dieing anytime soon, a lot has been invested and still will be to it, the only "dieing" that I see is going to happen will more than likely be convergence with Silverlight, if it was to happen someway some how. HTML5 may be awesome, and fit the needs for what these two technologies can do, but it's like any web standard it's contemporary, and fits the trend. WPF/Silverlight will still inevitably innovate faster and keep up with trends than browser vendors would. --Winston On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:40 PM, Darren Neimke wrote: > Great and gutsy email Corneliu... I agree with and fully support what > you have said. Scott needs to walk away and take a good hard look. > > - Darren Neimke > > > *From:* Corneliu Tusnea > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:06 PM > *To:* ozSilverlight > *Subject:* RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > > Sorry to tell you but I'm so sick of Scott's overly-opinionated attitude. > He has(had) access to a fair bit of internal knowledge inside Microsoft that > he saw through his own eyes and now he got out and he's spitting everywhere > around him having no clue about the (moral) damage he does to people he used > to work with ... and maybe even his friends (though I doubt he had too > many). > > We all know there is no company that is perfect and everywhere there are > communication issues and we are all people with different attitudes and > different opinions and yes, sometimes we don't agree but that's why we are > smart and can talk and come to agree or disagree and move on. > I so much dislike his attitude and "I've been there I know it all, it's > doom day and all Microsoft should do the way I think cose they are all > dead". > I bet you he left Microsoft because someone refused repeatedly his > request to "move up the food/management chain" in a position where he can > take bigger decisions that he thinks can do .. which got him > extremelyfrustrated :) > > I would not like to work with next to him in any project as I would feel > the day he leaves he will turn around and spit on everyone's head. > > The article (just like his daily tweets that people hand on to like God's > words) is yet another massive frustration throw up and "I know everything" > attitude. Some comments are very good at exposing this. > > My 2 cents, (very personal opinion) > Corneliu. > > PS>> I do take notes of his opinions when he stops being "morally and > verbally violent" to the people around him and his ex-colleagues and a > complete frustration declaration. This is simply called being polite to > your peers. > > > > ------------------ > *From:* ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [ > ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of > danlaz...@arcamis.com [danlaz...@arcamis.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM > *To:* ozSilverlight > *Subject:* Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic > > Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - > http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 > > Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer > > > -- > ___ > ozsilverlight mailing list > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > > ___ > ozsilverlight mailing list > ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com > http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight > > ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Re: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Great and gutsy email Corneliu... I agree with and fully support what you have said. Scott needs to walk away and take a good hard look. - Darren Neimke From: Corneliu Tusnea Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 9:06 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Sorry to tell you but I'm so sick of Scott's overly-opinionated attitude. He has(had) access to a fair bit of internal knowledge inside Microsoft that he saw through his own eyes and now he got out and he's spitting everywhere around him having no clue about the (moral) damage he does to people he used to work with ... and maybe even his friends (though I doubt he had too many). We all know there is no company that is perfect and everywhere there are communication issues and we are all people with different attitudes and different opinions and yes, sometimes we don't agree but that's why we are smart and can talk and come to agree or disagree and move on. I so much dislike his attitude and "I've been there I know it all, it's doom day and all Microsoft should do the way I think cose they are all dead". I bet you he left Microsoft because someone refused repeatedly his request to "move up the food/management chain" in a position where he can take bigger decisions that he thinks can do .. which got him extremely frustrated :) I would not like to work with next to him in any project as I would feel the day he leaves he will turn around and spit on everyone's head. The article (just like his daily tweets that people hand on to like God's words) is yet another massive frustration throw up and "I know everything" attitude. Some comments are very good at exposing this. My 2 cents, (very personal opinion) Corneliu. PS>> I do take notes of his opinions when he stops being "morally and verbally violent" to the people around him and his ex-colleagues and a complete frustration declaration. This is simply called being polite to your peers. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com [danlaz...@arcamis.com] Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Sorry to tell you but I'm so sick of Scott's overly-opinionated attitude. He has(had) access to a fair bit of internal knowledge inside Microsoft that he saw through his own eyes and now he got out and he's spitting everywhere around him having no clue about the (moral) damage he does to people he used to work with ... and maybe even his friends (though I doubt he had too many). We all know there is no company that is perfect and everywhere there are communication issues and we are all people with different attitudes and different opinions and yes, sometimes we don't agree but that's why we are smart and can talk and come to agree or disagree and move on. I so much dislike his attitude and "I've been there I know it all, it's doom day and all Microsoft should do the way I think cose they are all dead". I bet you he left Microsoft because someone refused repeatedly his request to "move up the food/management chain" in a position where he can take bigger decisions that he thinks can do .. which got him extremely frustrated :) I would not like to work with next to him in any project as I would feel the day he leaves he will turn around and spit on everyone's head. The article (just like his daily tweets that people hand on to like God's words) is yet another massive frustration throw up and "I know everything" attitude. Some comments are very good at exposing this. My 2 cents, (very personal opinion) Corneliu. PS>> I do take notes of his opinions when he stops being "morally and verbally violent" to the people around him and his ex-colleagues and a complete frustration declaration. This is simply called being polite to your peers. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com [danlaz...@arcamis.com] Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
RE: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Even as the web standards zealot in the corner, I wouldn't agree with many of Scott's points. Jordan Knight and I just discussed the relationship between HTML5 and Silverlight across two episodes of Frankly Speaking: http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=256 http://www.noisetosignal.com.au/franklyspeaking/?p=260 -- Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie If you're printing this email, you're doing it wrong. This is a computer, not a typewriter. From: ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com [mailto:ozsilverlight-boun...@ozsilverlight.com] On Behalf Of danlaz...@arcamis.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 September 2010 6:33 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
Interesting article re: WPF/Silverlight/HTML5 on riagenic
Via CodeProject 'Daily News' (14/09/2010) - http://www.riagenic.com/archives/363 Dr. Dan Lazner, PhD | Software Architect/Engineer/Developer ___ ozsilverlight mailing list ozsilverlight@ozsilverlight.com http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
