Re: [packman] rebuilding gstreamer every day?

[Hendrik Vogelsang]

Hey,

On 19.06.2016 21:36, Richard Brown wrote:


UNTESTED and NOT SUPPORTED by the openSUSE Project (yet)


You seem to misunderstand our relationship.

Packman does not follow openSUSEs definition of tested and supported. 
The whole reason we have started this repo is because we don't :-)


Additionally everyone seems to misunderstand that we are not here for 
providing multimedia capabilities and other sketchy apps for openSUSE. 
That might be the impression that openSUSE is giving, because it's the 
only situation where openSUSE points to Packman, but it's not what 
Packman is about.


We build software that is not shipped as part of distributions or that 
are shipped as an outdated version. This includes ffmpeg 3.0.2.


If something needs to change, it's openSUSEs understanding of what 
Packman is and with expectations openSUSE gives people about Packman.


And if you need someone that 'just' rebuilds your sketchy packages and 
is taking all the risks this brings you are at the wrong place here, 
sorry :-)


Henne

--
Henne Vogelsang
http://hennevogel.de
"To die. In the rain. Alone."
   Ernest Hemingway


___
Packman mailing list
Packman@links2linux.de
http://lists.links2linux.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/packman

Re: [packman] ffmpeg & gstreamer mess

[Dave Plater]

On 7/22/16, Sergey Kondakov  wrote:
> On 20.06.2016 00:36, Richard Brown wrote:
>> On 19 June 2016 at 16:41, Dave Plater  wrote:
 The pkg in multimedia:libs is about one hundred, thousand, million
 times more at risk of being broken than the pkg in Factory
>>>
>>> Not if it's well maintained
>>
>> There is _NO SUCH THING_ as a well maintained Devel Project.
>>
>> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_development_model
>>
>> They EXIST to be where things are put together, broken and ultimately
>> fixed before being submitted to Factory for testing into Tumbleweed
>>
>> A Devel Project which doesn't break from time to time is not doing
>> it's job properly.
>>
>
> You may repeat that as long as you like just to make en excuse for your
> team's
> bad maintenance practices of OBS but no actual user will ever believe that.
> Also, minuscule and specific testing in virtual machines or whatever you do
> in
> that "openQA" has never saved from actual problems even while using 100%
> official packages. Probably not because it's bad but because it's not enough
> to
> negate dumb human decisions, overcomplex bureaucracy with the lack of
> well-structured up-to-date human-readable guides to deal with it, lack of
> actual
> usage and belief that your dysfunctional defaults (once again, screw KDE5,
> Gnome3, VLC, pulseaudio, wicked, kernel-default and, especially, BTRFS !) is
> the
> one and only way to do things.
>

 Because it's a devel project, where packages are MEANT to be broken
 from time to time, meanwhile we KNOW the ffmpeg packages in Factory
 work as they get tested in openQA as part of the VLC testing.

 I've said it before and I'll say it again Packman building against
 multimedia:libs has always been silly
>>>
>>> Once Packman packages weren't linked and that resulted in many
>>> problems with incompatible libraries and out of sync maintenance.
>>
>>
>> In short, this is dangerous, wrong, stupid and downright idiotic.. and
>> I'm being polite and holding back what i really think about it.
>>
>> At the very LEAST ffmpeg in Packman should be linked to
>> Factory/Tumbleweed
>>
>> Packman for Leap should be linked to the version in Leap, so that
>> users do not have to suffer needless risk upgrading their packages.
>
> For once we agree ! Building anything against non-official repo version of
> something so fundamental as ffmpeg is almost as idiotic and irresponsible as
>
> removing distribution installer from the official repo of that
> distribution.
> -
> Instead, "TW" should get kick in the ass to update its ffmpeg version.
>
> VLC and mpv aren't the only packages depending on it, you know ! But then
> again,
> we're talking about the people who seem to removed 32bit gstreamer packages
> from
> Packman's TW repo even though wine's A/V capabilities are dependant upon
> them.
> And because of things like that whole wine bugtracker is filled with
> complaints
> for years ( https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9127 ) from users who's
>
> distribution doesn't build it properly. Goodbye, pre-rendered cutscenes in
> games
> and multimedia applications in general.
> -
> Why the hell there is there "Factory" and "TW" repoes with different
> configuration and packages ? Which one a normal person should use ?
>
> You both, TW team and Packman team, are at fault here.
> * Just update ffmpeg in TW.
> * Link ffmpeg and gstreamer and any other
>framework for each distro independently.
> * Work on better unnecessary rebuild-avoidance for OBS.
> * Whatever commercial entity owns openSUSE should buy Packman servers,
> since
>it purposely made any openSUSE desktop installation 100% dependant upon
> it.
>Novell had a Russian office, Russian law spits on software patenting,
>they can have them there legally.
>
> I would say that if anything happens with Packman then, most likely,
> openSUSE
> will lose all its non-server installations.
>
>>> Packman is a safe way for users to get the newest packages, especially
>>> Leap users because it rarely gets new packages. It's a pity somebody
>>> doesn't donate some extra server power to Packman to speed up the
>>> build cycle. Maintaining the Packman packages in multimedia apps and
>>> libs has taken away the old volatility that used to come from Packman.
>>> It's a far better option to enabling multiple obs repositories for Leap.
>>
>> No, Packman is not a safe way and this thread is sadly yet another
>> example of packman maintainers ignoring sound advice from seasoned
>> packagers who know what they're talking about.
>>
>> And I'm not really talking about myself, you can ignore me all you
>> want, but Bjorn is an expert on all things packaging and OBS,
>> especially when it comes to large projects, it's downright crazy that
>> his good advice appears to be ignored.
>>
>> Just as Tomas Chvatal's has been ignored on this list repeatedly.
>>
>> Please guys, I've been a long supporter 

[packman] ffmpeg & gstreamer mess

[Sergey Kondakov]

On 20.06.2016 00:36, Richard Brown wrote:

On 19 June 2016 at 16:41, Dave Plater  wrote:

The pkg in multimedia:libs is about one hundred, thousand, million
times more at risk of being broken than the pkg in Factory


Not if it's well maintained


There is _NO SUCH THING_ as a well maintained Devel Project.

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_development_model

They EXIST to be where things are put together, broken and ultimately
fixed before being submitted to Factory for testing into Tumbleweed

A Devel Project which doesn't break from time to time is not doing
it's job properly.



You may repeat that as long as you like just to make en excuse for your team's 
bad maintenance practices of OBS but no actual user will ever believe that.
Also, minuscule and specific testing in virtual machines or whatever you do in 
that "openQA" has never saved from actual problems even while using 100% 
official packages. Probably not because it's bad but because it's not enough to 
negate dumb human decisions, overcomplex bureaucracy with the lack of 
well-structured up-to-date human-readable guides to deal with it, lack of actual 
usage and belief that your dysfunctional defaults (once again, screw KDE5, 
Gnome3, VLC, pulseaudio, wicked, kernel-default and, especially, BTRFS !) is the 
one and only way to do things.




Because it's a devel project, where packages are MEANT to be broken
from time to time, meanwhile we KNOW the ffmpeg packages in Factory
work as they get tested in openQA as part of the VLC testing.

I've said it before and I'll say it again Packman building against
multimedia:libs has always been silly


Once Packman packages weren't linked and that resulted in many
problems with incompatible libraries and out of sync maintenance.



In short, this is dangerous, wrong, stupid and downright idiotic.. and
I'm being polite and holding back what i really think about it.

At the very LEAST ffmpeg in Packman should be linked to Factory/Tumbleweed

Packman for Leap should be linked to the version in Leap, so that
users do not have to suffer needless risk upgrading their packages.


For once we agree ! Building anything against non-official repo version of 
something so fundamental as ffmpeg is almost as idiotic and irresponsible as 
removing distribution installer from the official repo of that distribution.

-
Instead, "TW" should get kick in the ass to update its ffmpeg version.

VLC and mpv aren't the only packages depending on it, you know ! But then again, 
we're talking about the people who seem to removed 32bit gstreamer packages from 
Packman's TW repo even though wine's A/V capabilities are dependant upon them. 
And because of things like that whole wine bugtracker is filled with complaints 
for years ( https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9127 ) from users who's 
distribution doesn't build it properly. Goodbye, pre-rendered cutscenes in games 
and multimedia applications in general.

-
Why the hell there is there "Factory" and "TW" repoes with different 
configuration and packages ? Which one a normal person should use ?


You both, TW team and Packman team, are at fault here.
* Just update ffmpeg in TW.
* Link ffmpeg and gstreamer and any other
  framework for each distro independently.
* Work on better unnecessary rebuild-avoidance for OBS.
* Whatever commercial entity owns openSUSE should buy Packman servers, since
  it purposely made any openSUSE desktop installation 100% dependant upon it.
  Novell had a Russian office, Russian law spits on software patenting,
  they can have them there legally.

I would say that if anything happens with Packman then, most likely, openSUSE 
will lose all its non-server installations.



Packman is a safe way for users to get the newest packages, especially
Leap users because it rarely gets new packages. It's a pity somebody
doesn't donate some extra server power to Packman to speed up the
build cycle. Maintaining the Packman packages in multimedia apps and
libs has taken away the old volatility that used to come from Packman.
It's a far better option to enabling multiple obs repositories for Leap.


No, Packman is not a safe way and this thread is sadly yet another
example of packman maintainers ignoring sound advice from seasoned
packagers who know what they're talking about.

And I'm not really talking about myself, you can ignore me all you
want, but Bjorn is an expert on all things packaging and OBS,
especially when it comes to large projects, it's downright crazy that
his good advice appears to be ignored.

Just as Tomas Chvatal's has been ignored on this list repeatedly.

Please guys, I've been a long supporter of Packman, even running
several servers for pmbs before I changed employer, so not erode my
goodwill and poison my soft spot for your efforts by stubbornly
sticking to your guns and risking the smooth operation of Tumbleweed
and Leap users in the process.

Please link your packages more appropriately.
Please do