Re: [PD] list etiquette
fuck no! Pd expands boundaries of what is music and art. Why expect any boundaries on the list? The same norm you're expecting might not be shared by other people who use the list too. Just wish to clarify what I think is being discussed here which is not necessary the language but how the language is used to against others in an abusive way. For instance Mr.Y makes an announcement and the first reply from Mr. X is fuck off. Or Mrs. V posts something to the list where the subject singles out another subscriber in a disparaging way and has nothing to do with Pd at all. This isn't heated debate. The norms I am expecting are the basics of just being civil, to act in the ways described above in person would be anti-social behaviour . I don't care for some things said on the list, but all you can really do is try to convince other people to see things your way. yes, your right here, that is all that can be done. Free thought and expression on the list takes president , but when someone is singled out unfairly or having abuse thrown at them it is something I feel the need to complain about. ..or maybe I'm just troll fodder :/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
Bingo. On 2012-03-11, at 6:30 AM, ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com wrote: fuck no! Pd expands boundaries of what is music and art. Why expect any boundaries on the list? The same norm you're expecting might not be shared by other people who use the list too. Just wish to clarify what I think is being discussed here which is not necessary the language but how the language is used to against others in an abusive way. For instance Mr.Y makes an announcement and the first reply from Mr. X is fuck off. Or Mrs. V posts something to the list where the subject singles out another subscriber in a disparaging way and has nothing to do with Pd at all. This isn't heated debate. The norms I am expecting are the basics of just being civil, to act in the ways described above in person would be anti-social behaviour . I don't care for some things said on the list, but all you can really do is try to convince other people to see things your way. yes, your right here, that is all that can be done. Free thought and expression on the list takes president , but when someone is singled out unfairly or having abuse thrown at them it is something I feel the need to complain about. ..or maybe I'm just troll fodder :/ ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
Scott R. Looney wrote: i think my favorite quote on list behavior is actually a picture: http://xkcd.com/438/ complemented by that one: http://xkcd.com/386/ can't sleep, someone is wrong on the internet ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
If you're going to talk comics: (warning: NSFW)... http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 Truth be told. tho, this list is not so bad. From: abonneme...@revolwear.com Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 03:51:58 +0100 To: scottrloo...@gmail.com CC: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] list etiquette It seems few people have actually read and acknowledged the netiquette. Reminder: http://puredata.info/community/lists/Netiquette Am 11.03.2012 um 02:46 schrieb Scott R. Looney: i think my favorite quote on list behavior is actually a picture: http://xkcd.com/438/ i've composed long, angry tirades and deleted them based on this. scott On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: Ha! Point taken. Sorry - I never intended to come across as some kind of politeness police. On 2012-03-10, at 6:36 PM, Charles Henry czhe...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/10/12, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? fuck no! Pd expands boundaries of what is music and art. Why expect any boundaries on the list? The same norm you're expecting might not be shared by other people who use the list too. I don't care for some things said on the list, but all you can really do is try to convince other people to see things your way. People just use etiquette on the list because they want to. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
- Original Message - From: Charles Henry czhe...@gmail.com To: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at; mahatGma rabintrah mahat...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [PD] list etiquette On 3/10/12, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? fuck no! Didactic cursing doesn't violate the norm. But cursing (without provocation) at a new user who is asking for technical advice about Pd would violate the norm. If you do that you will get a very different response than you have here. Pd expands boundaries of what is music and art. Why expect any boundaries on the list? The same norm you're expecting might not be shared by other people who use the list too. Expanding boundaries implies boundaries. I don't care for some things said on the list, but all you can really do is try to convince other people to see things your way. People just use etiquette on the list because they want to. That's exactly how norms become widely accepted! In the parent thread someone's entire argument was undermined by their use of etiquette, so I don't think everybody is using it just because they want etiquette. -Jonathan ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] list etiquette
I'm changing the subject so that a discussion about the change in tone of this list doesn't carry the unfair implication that it's due to one member. I don't see a problem complaining about the netiquette of a list member, but I just ask that it be clear, constructive criticism. -Jonathan From: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com To: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Cc: mahatGma rabintrah mahat...@gmail.com; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PD] Is there a way to block/filter Mathieu ? Hey folks Maybe I'm out of touch here, or hypersensitive (I quit smoking far too long ago for it to be that, but I can totally sympathize with those for whom it's fresh - hell, I still miss it 15 years later)... As I understand it, if there are complaints about the behaviour of a specific member of the list, the first step is to approach the list administrators. Is this correct? And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? I took a bit of a break (about a year and a half) from regularly reading the pd-list while I completed some schooling. Since getting back to following the list, I've noticed a big change in the tone. I have to agree with Alan Brooker: Overall, I think the tone of late has become too belligerent, lets get some good will together. Had the mood on pd-list been like this when I started with Pd, I probably wouldn't have stuck around. Instead, I found it an incredibly supportive, open and generous community. That's one of Pd's strengths, isn't it? cheers dafydd ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
Put far more clearly and effectively than I did. Thanks Jonathan. On 2012-03-10, at 12:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm changing the subject so that a discussion about the change in tone of this list doesn't carry the unfair implication that it's due to one member. I don't see a problem complaining about the netiquette of a list member, but I just ask that it be clear, constructive criticism. -Jonathan From: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com To: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Cc: mahatGma rabintrah mahat...@gmail.com; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PD] Is there a way to block/filter Mathieu ? Hey folks Maybe I'm out of touch here, or hypersensitive (I quit smoking far too long ago for it to be that, but I can totally sympathize with those for whom it's fresh - hell, I still miss it 15 years later)... As I understand it, if there are complaints about the behaviour of a specific member of the list, the first step is to approach the list administrators. Is this correct? And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? I took a bit of a break (about a year and a half) from regularly reading the pd-list while I completed some schooling. Since getting back to following the list, I've noticed a big change in the tone. I have to agree with Alan Brooker: Overall, I think the tone of late has become too belligerent, lets get some good will together. Had the mood on pd-list been like this when I started with Pd, I probably wouldn't have stuck around. Instead, I found it an incredibly supportive, open and generous community. That's one of Pd's strengths, isn't it? cheers dafydd ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
i'll chime in first - as i am a new member of the list, and having trawled a fair number of discussion lists searching for material, i would say the PD list is kinder than most. i find the discussion on the list largely constructive (if not always relevant to my interests) with only an occasional sniping war starting up often based on someone's wording. lists are tricky things and writing doesn't always convey sarcasm or joking behavior effectively. thus someone gets offended and the flame war ensues. whenever this happens all of our inboxes get stuffed with the petty bickering and soon requests for filtering or banning members can follow. so far, i have not seen anyone regularly posting on this list whose positive and constructive contributions did not far outweigh their occasional negative aspects. i haven't read any posts lately that i find insulting and regular enough to consider banning them. if it were so, i would certainly mention it or support a motion to ban them. if we are referring to Mathieu Bouchard you should be aware that a large portion of his work inspired the current GUI direction of PD-extended discussed on this list, from his original DesireData variant of PD. that is enough for me to give him some measure of leeway when he chooses to express displeasure at others on the list, although i did not agree with his viewpoint that HC was taking credit for work he didn't deserve. Mathieu seems to want to move PD forward as much as the rest of us based on what i've read, but as always there will be some differences as to the best way to do it while keeping the values of open source collaboration intact. scott On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: Put far more clearly and effectively than I did. Thanks Jonathan. On 2012-03-10, at 12:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm changing the subject so that a discussion about the change in tone of this list doesn't carry the unfair implication that it's due to one member. I don't see a problem complaining about the netiquette of a list member, but I just ask that it be clear, constructive criticism. -Jonathan From: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com To: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Cc: mahatGma rabintrah mahat...@gmail.com; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PD] Is there a way to block/filter Mathieu ? Hey folks Maybe I'm out of touch here, or hypersensitive (I quit smoking far too long ago for it to be that, but I can totally sympathize with those for whom it's fresh - hell, I still miss it 15 years later)... As I understand it, if there are complaints about the behaviour of a specific member of the list, the first step is to approach the list administrators. Is this correct? And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? I took a bit of a break (about a year and a half) from regularly reading the pd-list while I completed some schooling. Since getting back to following the list, I've noticed a big change in the tone. I have to agree with Alan Brooker: Overall, I think the tone of late has become too belligerent, lets get some good will together. Had the mood on pd-list been like this when I started with Pd, I probably wouldn't have stuck around. Instead, I found it an incredibly supportive, open and generous community. That's one of Pd's strengths, isn't it? cheers dafydd ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
Hey Scott Ok - maybe I'm just being cranky (which I'm extra good at). Glad to hear this is still a welcoming place for newcomers. And to be clear, I'm definitely not talking about Mathieu. I've always appreciated his contributions. Cheers Dafydd On 2012-03-10, at 1:37 PM, Scott R. Looney scottrloo...@gmail.com wrote: i'll chime in first - as i am a new member of the list, and having trawled a fair number of discussion lists searching for material, i would say the PD list is kinder than most. i find the discussion on the list largely constructive (if not always relevant to my interests) with only an occasional sniping war starting up often based on someone's wording. lists are tricky things and writing doesn't always convey sarcasm or joking behavior effectively. thus someone gets offended and the flame war ensues. whenever this happens all of our inboxes get stuffed with the petty bickering and soon requests for filtering or banning members can follow. so far, i have not seen anyone regularly posting on this list whose positive and constructive contributions did not far outweigh their occasional negative aspects. i haven't read any posts lately that i find insulting and regular enough to consider banning them. if it were so, i would certainly mention it or support a motion to ban them. if we are referring to Mathieu Bouchard you should be aware that a large portion of his work inspired the current GUI direction of PD-extended discussed on this list, from his original DesireData variant of PD. that is enough for me to give him some measure of leeway when he chooses to express displeasure at others on the list, although i did not agree with his viewpoint that HC was taking credit for work he didn't deserve. Mathieu seems to want to move PD forward as much as the rest of us based on what i've read, but as always there will be some differences as to the best way to do it while keeping the values of open source collaboration intact. scott On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: Put far more clearly and effectively than I did. Thanks Jonathan. On 2012-03-10, at 12:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm changing the subject so that a discussion about the change in tone of this list doesn't carry the unfair implication that it's due to one member. I don't see a problem complaining about the netiquette of a list member, but I just ask that it be clear, constructive criticism. -Jonathan From: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com To: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Cc: mahatGma rabintrah mahat...@gmail.com; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PD] Is there a way to block/filter Mathieu ? Hey folks Maybe I'm out of touch here, or hypersensitive (I quit smoking far too long ago for it to be that, but I can totally sympathize with those for whom it's fresh - hell, I still miss it 15 years later)... As I understand it, if there are complaints about the behaviour of a specific member of the list, the first step is to approach the list administrators. Is this correct? And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? I took a bit of a break (about a year and a half) from regularly reading the pd-list while I completed some schooling. Since getting back to following the list, I've noticed a big change in the tone. I have to agree with Alan Brooker: Overall, I think the tone of late has become too belligerent, lets get some good will together. Had the mood on pd-list been like this when I started with Pd, I probably wouldn't have stuck around. Instead, I found it an incredibly supportive, open and generous community. That's one of Pd's strengths, isn't it? cheers dafydd ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
sorry - looks like i wasn't being completely clear with that last statement. it started out as a request to filter a particular member from the list. the 'you should be aware' quote was more generally directed at everyone, not a particular individual in question. as in 'if someone was going to single out another on this list, they should be aware of their positive contributions'. no offense or accusation was implied. best, scott On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Scott Ok - maybe I'm just being cranky (which I'm extra good at). Glad to hear this is still a welcoming place for newcomers. And to be clear, I'm definitely not talking about Mathieu. I've always appreciated his contributions. Cheers Dafydd On 2012-03-10, at 1:37 PM, Scott R. Looney scottrloo...@gmail.com wrote: i'll chime in first - as i am a new member of the list, and having trawled a fair number of discussion lists searching for material, i would say the PD list is kinder than most. i find the discussion on the list largely constructive (if not always relevant to my interests) with only an occasional sniping war starting up often based on someone's wording. lists are tricky things and writing doesn't always convey sarcasm or joking behavior effectively. thus someone gets offended and the flame war ensues. whenever this happens all of our inboxes get stuffed with the petty bickering and soon requests for filtering or banning members can follow. so far, i have not seen anyone regularly posting on this list whose positive and constructive contributions did not far outweigh their occasional negative aspects. i haven't read any posts lately that i find insulting and regular enough to consider banning them. if it were so, i would certainly mention it or support a motion to ban them. if we are referring to Mathieu Bouchard you should be aware that a large portion of his work inspired the current GUI direction of PD-extended discussed on this list, from his original DesireData variant of PD. that is enough for me to give him some measure of leeway when he chooses to express displeasure at others on the list, although i did not agree with his viewpoint that HC was taking credit for work he didn't deserve. Mathieu seems to want to move PD forward as much as the rest of us based on what i've read, but as always there will be some differences as to the best way to do it while keeping the values of open source collaboration intact. scott On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: Put far more clearly and effectively than I did. Thanks Jonathan. On 2012-03-10, at 12:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm changing the subject so that a discussion about the change in tone of this list doesn't carry the unfair implication that it's due to one member. I don't see a problem complaining about the netiquette of a list member, but I just ask that it be clear, constructive criticism. -Jonathan From: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com To: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Cc: mahatGma rabintrah mahat...@gmail.com; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PD] Is there a way to block/filter Mathieu ? Hey folks Maybe I'm out of touch here, or hypersensitive (I quit smoking far too long ago for it to be that, but I can totally sympathize with those for whom it's fresh - hell, I still miss it 15 years later)... As I understand it, if there are complaints about the behaviour of a specific member of the list, the first step is to approach the list administrators. Is this correct? And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? I took a bit of a break (about a year and a half) from regularly reading the pd-list while I completed some schooling. Since getting back to following the list, I've noticed a big change in the tone. I have to agree with Alan Brooker: Overall, I think the tone of late has become too belligerent, lets get some good will together. Had the mood on pd-list been like this when I started with Pd, I probably wouldn't have stuck around. Instead, I found it an incredibly supportive, open and generous community. That's one of Pd's strengths, isn't it? cheers dafydd ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -
Re: [PD] list etiquette
Hey Scott - yeah I figured that was the case. Now let's make some art! On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 3:00 PM, Scott R. Looney scottrloo...@gmail.com wrote: sorry - looks like i wasn't being completely clear with that last statement. it started out as a request to filter a particular member from the list. the 'you should be aware' quote was more generally directed at everyone, not a particular individual in question. as in 'if someone was going to single out another on this list, they should be aware of their positive contributions'. no offense or accusation was implied. best, scott On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Scott Ok - maybe I'm just being cranky (which I'm extra good at). Glad to hear this is still a welcoming place for newcomers. And to be clear, I'm definitely not talking about Mathieu. I've always appreciated his contributions. Cheers Dafydd On 2012-03-10, at 1:37 PM, Scott R. Looney scottrloo...@gmail.com wrote: i'll chime in first - as i am a new member of the list, and having trawled a fair number of discussion lists searching for material, i would say the PD list is kinder than most. i find the discussion on the list largely constructive (if not always relevant to my interests) with only an occasional sniping war starting up often based on someone's wording. lists are tricky things and writing doesn't always convey sarcasm or joking behavior effectively. thus someone gets offended and the flame war ensues. whenever this happens all of our inboxes get stuffed with the petty bickering and soon requests for filtering or banning members can follow. so far, i have not seen anyone regularly posting on this list whose positive and constructive contributions did not far outweigh their occasional negative aspects. i haven't read any posts lately that i find insulting and regular enough to consider banning them. if it were so, i would certainly mention it or support a motion to ban them. if we are referring to Mathieu Bouchard you should be aware that a large portion of his work inspired the current GUI direction of PD-extended discussed on this list, from his original DesireData variant of PD. that is enough for me to give him some measure of leeway when he chooses to express displeasure at others on the list, although i did not agree with his viewpoint that HC was taking credit for work he didn't deserve. Mathieu seems to want to move PD forward as much as the rest of us based on what i've read, but as always there will be some differences as to the best way to do it while keeping the values of open source collaboration intact. scott On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: Put far more clearly and effectively than I did. Thanks Jonathan. On 2012-03-10, at 12:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm changing the subject so that a discussion about the change in tone of this list doesn't carry the unfair implication that it's due to one member. I don't see a problem complaining about the netiquette of a list member, but I just ask that it be clear, constructive criticism. -Jonathan From: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com To: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Cc: mahatGma rabintrah mahat...@gmail.com; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PD] Is there a way to block/filter Mathieu ? Hey folks Maybe I'm out of touch here, or hypersensitive (I quit smoking far too long ago for it to be that, but I can totally sympathize with those for whom it's fresh - hell, I still miss it 15 years later)... As I understand it, if there are complaints about the behaviour of a specific member of the list, the first step is to approach the list administrators. Is this correct? And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? I took a bit of a break (about a year and a half) from regularly reading the pd-list while I completed some schooling. Since getting back to following the list, I've noticed a big change in the tone. I have to agree with Alan Brooker: Overall, I think the tone of late has become too belligerent, lets get some good will together. Had the mood on pd-list been like this when I started with Pd, I probably wouldn't have stuck around. Instead, I found it an incredibly supportive, open and generous community. That's one of Pd's strengths, isn't it? cheers dafydd ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -
Re: [PD] list etiquette
I'll be honest, I've been on the PD mailing list a couple of years now, since my final year at university. I've found it a generally welcoming and 'troll free' online community. It's something very positive about the list. That being said, my level of involvement does keep me from getting in to some of the more in-depth discussions, so I can't speak for all the traffic on here. But I've never noticed a tone or content problem on here Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 15:20:06 -0500 From: dafyd...@gmail.com To: scottrloo...@gmail.com CC: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] list etiquette Hey Scott - yeah I figured that was the case. Now let's make some art! On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 3:00 PM, Scott R. Looney scottrloo...@gmail.com wrote: sorry - looks like i wasn't being completely clear with that last statement. it started out as a request to filter a particular member from the list. the 'you should be aware' quote was more generally directed at everyone, not a particular individual in question. as in 'if someone was going to single out another on this list, they should be aware of their positive contributions'. no offense or accusation was implied. best, scott On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Scott Ok - maybe I'm just being cranky (which I'm extra good at). Glad to hear this is still a welcoming place for newcomers. And to be clear, I'm definitely not talking about Mathieu. I've always appreciated his contributions. Cheers Dafydd On 2012-03-10, at 1:37 PM, Scott R. Looney scottrloo...@gmail.com wrote: i'll chime in first - as i am a new member of the list, and having trawled a fair number of discussion lists searching for material, i would say the PD list is kinder than most. i find the discussion on the list largely constructive (if not always relevant to my interests) with only an occasional sniping war starting up often based on someone's wording. lists are tricky things and writing doesn't always convey sarcasm or joking behavior effectively. thus someone gets offended and the flame war ensues. whenever this happens all of our inboxes get stuffed with the petty bickering and soon requests for filtering or banning members can follow. so far, i have not seen anyone regularly posting on this list whose positive and constructive contributions did not far outweigh their occasional negative aspects. i haven't read any posts lately that i find insulting and regular enough to consider banning them. if it were so, i would certainly mention it or support a motion to ban them. if we are referring to Mathieu Bouchard you should be aware that a large portion of his work inspired the current GUI direction of PD-extended discussed on this list, from his original DesireData variant of PD. that is enough for me to give him some measure of leeway when he chooses to express displeasure at others on the list, although i did not agree with his viewpoint that HC was taking credit for work he didn't deserve. Mathieu seems to want to move PD forward as much as the rest of us based on what i've read, but as always there will be some differences as to the best way to do it while keeping the values of open source collaboration intact. scott On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: Put far more clearly and effectively than I did. Thanks Jonathan. On 2012-03-10, at 12:08 PM, Jonathan Wilkes jancs...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm changing the subject so that a discussion about the change in tone of this list doesn't carry the unfair implication that it's due to one member. I don't see a problem complaining about the netiquette of a list member, but I just ask that it be clear, constructive criticism. -Jonathan From: Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com To: ALAN BROOKER alan.brooker2...@gmail.com Cc: mahatGma rabintrah mahat...@gmail.com; pd-list@iem.at Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [PD] Is there a way to block/filter Mathieu ? Hey folks Maybe I'm out of touch here, or hypersensitive (I quit smoking far too long ago for it to be that, but I can totally sympathize with those for whom it's fresh - hell, I still miss it 15 years later)... As I understand it, if there are complaints about the behaviour of a specific member of the list, the first step is to approach the list administrators. Is this correct? And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? I took a bit of a break (about a year and a half) from regularly reading the pd-list while I completed some schooling. Since getting back to following the list, I've noticed a big change in the tone
Re: [PD] list etiquette
On 3/10/12, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? fuck no! Pd expands boundaries of what is music and art. Why expect any boundaries on the list? The same norm you're expecting might not be shared by other people who use the list too. I don't care for some things said on the list, but all you can really do is try to convince other people to see things your way. People just use etiquette on the list because they want to. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
Ha! Point taken. Sorry - I never intended to come across as some kind of politeness police. On 2012-03-10, at 6:36 PM, Charles Henry czhe...@gmail.com wrote: On 3/10/12, Dafydd Hughes dafyd...@gmail.com wrote: And there are pretty widely accepted norms about language (I'm talking about agressive langage and expletives here) on the list, too, even if they're not written down, correct? fuck no! Pd expands boundaries of what is music and art. Why expect any boundaries on the list? The same norm you're expecting might not be shared by other people who use the list too. I don't care for some things said on the list, but all you can really do is try to convince other people to see things your way. People just use etiquette on the list because they want to. ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] list etiquette
I'd rather not see bullying posts on the list, apologies would be in order. Cheers, a ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
peace, love happiness! Yea! :) To be honest I find the Pd list one of the most open helpful and fun I'm on On other lists I've been involved in huge flames on html, mutt and language-style.. and that *is* boring... As for 'newbie-friendliness' I consider my-self to always be learning and a 'newbie' on something (especially in the FLOSS world!) I find most people on here (even the 'pros') very welcoming and firendly. Lorenzo Andras ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external
That 'pro' thread should have retitled been retitled for sure. Occasionally there are little outbreaks like that, but mostly I think its quite civil around here. I think we could be more newbie friendly. I've heard that this list intimidates most newbies, which is not a good thing, IMHO. .hc On Jun 14, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: just curious but is it normal netiquette on the Pd list to hi-jack other people's threads? also, I find it odd that many people on the list were more interested in adding to the debate defining the term 'professional' (in posts titled - Subject: Re: plugin~ external) rather than adding to the problem of [plugin~] not working properly not criticizing - just an observation the reason I'm devoting a lot of my energy to figuring out the [plugin~] external is because I'm editing the LADSPA chapter in the FOSS Pd manual online -- http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/UsingLADSPAplugins and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list Free software means you control what your computer does. Non-free software means someone else controls that, and to some extent controls you. - Richard M. Stallman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external
Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: That 'pro' thread should have retitled been retitled for sure. Occasionally there are little outbreaks like that, but mostly I think its quite civil around here. I think we could be more newbie friendly. I've heard that this list intimidates most newbies, which is not a good thing, IMHO. right -- I understand there is some emotional baggage with old-timers in a community I have run the .microsound list for ten years now and know the drill! ;) also, let me say that although I might be a n00b to Pd I do come from the Max/MSP community (much less anarchic) and have 10+ years working with Max/MSP here's some info on me for anyone that's interested: http://cycling74.com/2005/09/13/an-interview-with-kim-cascone/ http://createdigitalmusic.com/2009/08/04/linux-music-workflow-switching-from-mac-os-x-to-ubuntu-with-kim-cascone/ .hc On Jun 14, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: just curious but is it normal netiquette on the Pd list to hi-jack other people's threads? also, I find it odd that many people on the list were more interested in adding to the debate defining the term 'professional' (in posts titled - Subject: Re: plugin~ external) rather than adding to the problem of [plugin~] not working properly not criticizing - just an observation the reason I'm devoting a lot of my energy to figuring out the [plugin~] external is because I'm editing the LADSPA chapter in the FOSS Pd manual online -- http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/UsingLADSPAplugins and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list Free software means you control what your computer does. Non-free software means someone else controls that, and to some extent controls you. - Richard M. Stallman ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external
ola, right -- I understand there is some emotional baggage with old-timers in a community i'm sorry to say there's nothing emotional here... just pointing out what doesn't work, particularly people wanting to take over doesn't mean we want to fix it at all... i don't, ciao, sevy ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external
On Jun 14, 2010, at 8:18 PM, Hans-Christoph Steiner wrote: That 'pro' thread should have retitled been retitled for sure. Occasionally there are little outbreaks like that, but mostly I think its quite civil around here. I think we could be more newbie friendly. I've heard that this list intimidates most newbies, which is not a good thing, IMHO. .hc Yeah, OT threads should be retitled immediately so as not to lose the initial discussion. It's annoying to skim the list digests when the subject lines don't match the content. On Jun 14, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: the reason I'm devoting a lot of my energy to figuring out the [plugin~] external is because I'm editing the LADSPA chapter in the FOSS Pd manual online -- http://en.flossmanuals.net/bin/view/PureData/UsingLADSPAplugins and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months. Not everyone knows to search the mailing list. This is why I suggested a few weeks ago that we should look into building out knowledge base in a more centralized way because there are too many disparate elements ... I think newbies don't know where to look. Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external
Dan Wilcox wrote: and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months. that's exactly what I'm trying to do here :) and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment also, keep in mind I'm coming at Pd from 10 years of Max/MSP usage where the community is much less anarchic and doesn't share the political framework of being a FOSS app - which makes things less flexible at times but also imposes a certain standard, from the top down, on how things should work Not everyone knows to search the mailing list. This is why I suggested a few weeks ago that we should look into building out knowledge base in a more centralized way because there are too many disparate elements ... I think newbies don't know where to look. given the variety of conflicting info I've been given over the past week about how the [plugin~] object 'should work (or why it doesn't) I'd have to say that even the 'experts' don't know where to look sometimes it should NOT take anyone (even a Pd n00b) the better part of a week to figure out a) why sending [info] to a [plugin~] won't always give her the correct info using what they believe to be the standard Pd [print] external and b) that using [symbol:name being the name of the port] in [plugin~] doesn't work globally for all LADSPA plugs hosted by [plugin~] and that symbol:#n_of_ctrl_port does - at least in the ones I've tested so far ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
On Jun 14, 2010, at 9:22 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: Dan Wilcox wrote: and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months. that's exactly what I'm trying to do here :) Yes thanks! Sorry if I seemed to be addressing you in particular, my statement was more for us in general. and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment Yes, 1337 handshakes are no real solutions for sure, but as the community is more disorganized then say the Max community, it's not suprising that these little bits if info get lost. Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external
On Mon, 14 Jun 2010, Kim Cascone wrote: also, let me say that although I might be a n00b to Pd I do come from the Max/MSP community (much less anarchic) and have 10+ years working with Max/MSP here's some info on me for anyone that's interested: You know that there's already a pd patch named after you ? http://gridflow.ca/svn/trunk/examples/postdigital.pd or go in Help - GridFlow Examples and click postdigital.pd. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard, Montréal, Québec. téléphone: +1.514.383.3801___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
Dan Wilcox wrote: On Jun 14, 2010, at 9:22 PM, Kim Cascone wrote: Dan Wilcox wrote: and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months. that's exactly what I'm trying to do here :) Yes thanks! Sorry if I seemed to be addressing you in particular, my statement was more for us in general. no worries -- I was just letting you know that I'm trying to make some info clear to others and not trying to be a pain in the culo! ;) and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment Yes, 1337 handshakes are no real solutions for sure, but as the community is more disorganized then say the Max community, it's not suprising that these little bits if info get lost. and why I'm trying to do a little work for the community since I'm new here not only because I'd like to use the [plugin~] external but because I feel others should also have the pleasure of using it! :) ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external
Mathieu Bouchard wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2010, Kim Cascone wrote: also, let me say that although I might be a n00b to Pd I do come from the Max/MSP community (much less anarchic) and have 10+ years working with Max/MSP here's some info on me for anyone that's interested: You know that there's already a pd patch named after you ? http://gridflow.ca/svn/trunk/examples/postdigital.pd or go in Help - GridFlow Examples and click postdigital.pd. blush I'm honored sir! :) /blush ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external
On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Kim Cascone k...@anechoicmedia.com wrote: Dan Wilcox wrote: and I want to make sure the text is a) true and b) easily understood by a n00b This is where I think things should always go ... to the wiki or the Floss manual! If a solution is found, pleasepleaseplease post it to a standard place and then *everyone* can benefit and we don't get the same questions every 6 months. that's exactly what I'm trying to do here :) and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment also, keep in mind I'm coming at Pd from 10 years of Max/MSP usage where the community is much less anarchic and doesn't share the political framework of being a FOSS app - which makes things less flexible at times but also imposes a certain standard, from the top down, on how things should work [...] Guys, you are amazing, you are hijacking the thread AGAIN! The practical effect why it sucks for me is that i archive informative threads in gmail and this way i have to archive a messed up thread to have the tiny bit of information (on how [plugin~] works) somewhere among the 1337 mails. If i might comment a bit longer on the 'vibe' of this mailing list this one time (and this list is not exactly the same as 'the Pd community'), yes i was shocked a bit too at the first time... it seemed not so friendly, some people seemed not to pay enough attention to what others wrote, and some people seemed to carry on a partly educative, partly aggressive tone which i particularly don't like. After some time it just seems to me like most other 'communities', and my own family and my own friends are not exceptions; it is a group of individuals with all their different past and present lives and 'heavy childhoods' and as a functional group they are not the most effective, but you can learn a lot from them and even have good fun if you take it easy (but not too easy). One of the most interesting things going on lately has been the development of social groups and virtual groups, and the development of free softwares' user groups is definitely something very interesting, and, i would say, something that has very a brief past compared to how long and bold it's future i expect to be. Simply put, free software development has a *lot* of experimentation to do concerning organization, decision making, etc - it's a long way to go! (All this said, i fully understand those who are unsatisfied by the current ways, and i also fully understand those who are maintaining those current ways, also those who challenge them, i just don't really understand when people are inpatient, arrogant, or pointlessly negative. My 2 cents is: be nicer to each others guys and don't drinkpost...) Andras ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:03 PM, András Murányi wrote: Guys, you are amazing, you are hijacking the thread AGAIN! The practical effect why it sucks for me is that i archive informative threads in gmail and this way i have to archive a messed up thread to have the tiny bit of information (on how [plugin~] works) somewhere among the 1337 mails. Actually, I renamed the subject line in my first reply, then removed the plugin~ reference later on ... is this hijacking? We already mentioned the fact that the subject line should have been changed earlier on. Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] list etiquette
2010/6/15 Dan Wilcox danomat...@gmail.com On Jun 14, 2010, at 10:03 PM, András Murányi wrote: Guys, you are amazing, you are hijacking the thread AGAIN! The practical effect why it sucks for me is that i archive informative threads in gmail and this way i have to archive a messed up thread to have the tiny bit of information (on how [plugin~] works) somewhere among the 1337 mails. Actually, I renamed the subject line in my first reply, then removed the plugin~ reference later on ... is this hijacking? We already mentioned the fact that the subject line should have been changed earlier on. Dan Wilcox danomatika.com robotcowboy.com This is what i meant by hijacking again (the subject list etiquette WAS: plugin~ external) and given that most, if not all, Linux audio apps can host a LADSPA/DSSI/LV2 plugin circa 2010 I see no reason why Pd shouldn't also be able to host one without 1337 secret handshakes, compiling src, chasing down deps, and other distractions to someone wanting to simply and easily host a plugin to do some audio processing mind you these 'l337 handshake' solutions are sometimes necessary when solving a Linux audio problem but should not be a 0th order approach to trying to use Pd in a production environment but never mind, i'm really not into busting other people, i just found it funny that it was happening again... peace, love happiness! Andras ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
