Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
thanks for all this, will try to find some time this week for this... (building on the openmoko is a thing I'll do when I have more experience with the system ;) ) Ol. ogeem.be okno.be cosmin O_O wrote: Ok, there is also a full pd-extended version for armel (except pix_kaleidoscope and curve3d) there: http://www.servideo.org/debian/ Cosmin CC: o...@ogeem.be; pd-list@iem.at From: h...@at.or.at To: horiacos...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 11:22:01 -0500 This would be great to have as a wiki page on puredata.info, thanks for making the build. .hc On Nov 17, 2010, at 9:27 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: Hi, That's simple: Install pd-extended (Armel version) There is no OpenGL support on the Freerunner so Gem, pdp, pidip are not compiled on this version. 1/ Install dependencies: wget http://www.debian-multimedia.org/pool/main/d/debian-multimedia-keyring/debian-multimedia-keyring_2008.10.16_all.deb dpkg -i debian-multimedia-keyring_2008.10.16_all.deb nano -w /etc/apt/sources list and add: deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny main non-free then: apt-get install x-ttcidfont-conf tcllib libfftw3-3 libflite1 libjack0 libmp3lame0 libogg0 libspeex1 libvorbis0a libvorbisenc2 libvorbisfile3 tcl8.5 tk8.5 2/ Install Pd-extended for armel wget http://www.servideo.org/debian/Pd-0.42.5-extended_light_armel.deb dpkg -i Pd-0.42.5-extended_light_armel.deb Note that if you had previously troubles with the dependencies of pd-extended, make a dpkg -P pdextended 3/ go to: /usr/share/applications/pd-extended.desktop and replace Exec=pasuspender -- /usr/bin/pdextended -alsa %F by: Exec=pdextended -alsa (-- depending the space left, you should install also alsa-base for that) or by: Exec=pdextended -oss (-- my choice) 4/Run Pd-extended or puredata on the Freerunner: a/ Go to Main Menu Applications QX b/ Select options (white file on the bottom left) and click favourites c/ Select pd-extended d/ Quit QX and come back to QX e/ Select pd-xextended and set on options the settings like for example: prevent suspending, Prevent screen diming, Use Window Manager and Full screen and save. f/ Select pd-extended g/ Launch pd-extended with Options Launch. If you want to install puredata instead of pd-extended: apt-get install puredata Best, Cosmin Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 12:58:45 +0100 From: o...@ogeem.be mailto:o...@ogeem.be To: pd-list@iem.at mailto:pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd I would be happy to know how you did install pd on your freerunner... I did tried to install from rep (using debian QText v28) and it doesn't start, PDa seems too old to install (need osso-esd wich is not available...) I had been able to install it before but not anymore :/ any hints ? tks Ol. ogeem.be okno.be Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd To: cosmin O_O horiacos...@hotmail.com mailto:horiacos...@hotmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at mailto:pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 4cdd2b53.9050...@iem.at mailto:4cdd2b53.9050...@iem.at Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 11/12/2010 11:11 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if I done the good way of measurments, but I've only choose the 10ms option on audio buffer and test some patches to see if the sound was correct. And it was (without cranks). ah i see. the 10ms option does not mean so much. it only affects the buffer Pd uses internally; the audio-subsystem will add latency on top of that. the only reliable way to test latency is to measure it (by means of cables). which OS are you running on the FreeRunner? FSO? android? fgamr IOhannes -- next part -- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailto:Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list “We must become the change we want to see. - Mahatma Gandhi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
I would be happy to know how you did install pd on your freerunner... I did tried to install from rep (using debian QText v28) and it doesn't start, PDa seems too old to install (need osso-esd wich is not available...) I had been able to install it before but not anymore :/ any hints ? tks Ol. ogeem.be okno.be Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd To: cosmin O_O horiacos...@hotmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 4cdd2b53.9050...@iem.at Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 11/12/2010 11:11 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if I done the good way of measurments, but I've only choose the 10ms option on audio buffer and test some patches to see if the sound was correct. And it was (without cranks). ah i see. the 10ms option does not mean so much. it only affects the buffer Pd uses internally; the audio-subsystem will add latency on top of that. the only reliable way to test latency is to measure it (by means of cables). which OS are you running on the FreeRunner? FSO? android? fgamr IOhannes -- next part -- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
Hi, That's simple: Install pd-extended (Armel version) There is no OpenGL support on the Freerunner so Gem, pdp, pidip are not compiled on this version. 1/ Install dependencies: wget http://www.debian-multimedia.org/pool/main/d/debian-multimedia-keyring/debian-multimedia-keyring_2008.10.16_all.deb dpkg -i debian-multimedia-keyring_2008.10.16_all.deb nano -w /etc/apt/sources list and add: deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny main non-free then: apt-get install x-ttcidfont-conf tcllib libfftw3-3 libflite1 libjack0 libmp3lame0 libogg0 libspeex1 libvorbis0a libvorbisenc2 libvorbisfile3 tcl8.5 tk8.5 2/ Install Pd-extended for armel wget http://www.servideo.org/debian/Pd-0.42.5-extended_light_armel.deb dpkg -i Pd-0.42.5-extended_light_armel.deb Note that if you had previously troubles with the dependencies of pd-extended, make a dpkg -P pdextended 3/ go to: /usr/share/applications/pd-extended.desktop and replace Exec=pasuspender -- /usr/bin/pdextended -alsa %F by: Exec=pdextended -alsa (-- depending the space left, you should install also alsa-base for that) or by: Exec=pdextended -oss (-- my choice) 4/Run Pd-extended or puredata on the Freerunner: a/ Go to Main Menu Applications QX b/ Select options (white file on the bottom left) and click favourites c/ Select pd-extended d/ Quit QX and come back to QX e/ Select pd-xextended and set on options the settings like for example: prevent suspending, Prevent screen diming, Use Window Manager and Full screen and save. f/ Select pd-extended g/ Launch pd-extended with Options Launch. If you want to install puredata instead of pd-extended: apt-get install puredata Best, Cosmin Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 12:58:45 +0100 From: o...@ogeem.be To: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd I would be happy to know how you did install pd on your freerunner... I did tried to install from rep (using debian QText v28) and it doesn't start, PDa seems too old to install (need osso-esd wich is not available...) I had been able to install it before but not anymore :/ any hints ? tks Ol. ogeem.be okno.be Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd To: cosmin O_O horiacos...@hotmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 4cdd2b53.9050...@iem.at Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 11/12/2010 11:11 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if I done the good way of measurments, but I've only choose the 10ms option on audio buffer and test some patches to see if the sound was correct. And it was (without cranks). ah i see. the 10ms option does not mean so much. it only affects the buffer Pd uses internally; the audio-subsystem will add latency on top of that. the only reliable way to test latency is to measure it (by means of cables). which OS are you running on the FreeRunner? FSO? android? fgamr IOhannes -- next part -- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
You could try building it from source? .hc On Nov 17, 2010, at 6:58 AM, Olm-e wrote: I would be happy to know how you did install pd on your freerunner... I did tried to install from rep (using debian QText v28) and it doesn't start, PDa seems too old to install (need osso-esd wich is not available...) I had been able to install it before but not anymore :/ any hints ? tks Ol. ogeem.be okno.be Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd To: cosmin O_O horiacos...@hotmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 4cdd2b53.9050...@iem.at Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 11/12/2010 11:11 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if I done the good way of measurments, but I've only choose the 10ms option on audio buffer and test some patches to see if the sound was correct. And it was (without cranks). ah i see. the 10ms option does not mean so much. it only affects the buffer Pd uses internally; the audio-subsystem will add latency on top of that. the only reliable way to test latency is to measure it (by means of cables). which OS are you running on the FreeRunner? FSO? android? fgamr IOhannes -- next part -- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.- Thomas Jefferson ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
On Wed, 17 Nov 2010, cosmin O_O wrote: There is no OpenGL support on the Freerunner so Gem, pdp, pidip are not compiled on this version. But Gem's [pix_...] doesn't depend on OpenGL (and neither does almost all of pdp). For example you can use a [metro] with GridFlow's [gemdead] to make [pix_...] objects work and you can use [#from_pix]-[#out x11] to display them. Alternately, there are pdp-pix converters (that existed for much longer) that you can use with any of pdp's several non-GL outputs ([pdp_xv], ...). ___ | Mathieu Bouchard tél: +1.514.383.3801 Villeray, Montréal, QC ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
This would be great to have as a wiki page on puredata.info, thanks for making the build. .hc On Nov 17, 2010, at 9:27 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: Hi, That's simple: Install pd-extended (Armel version) There is no OpenGL support on the Freerunner so Gem, pdp, pidip are not compiled on this version. 1/ Install dependencies: wget http://www.debian-multimedia.org/pool/main/d/debian-multimedia-keyring/debian-multimedia-keyring_2008.10.16_all.deb dpkg -i debian-multimedia-keyring_2008.10.16_all.deb nano -w /etc/apt/sources list and add: deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny main non-free then: apt-get install x-ttcidfont-conf tcllib libfftw3-3 libflite1 libjack0 libmp3lame0 libogg0 libspeex1 libvorbis0a libvorbisenc2 libvorbisfile3 tcl8.5 tk8.5 2/ Install Pd-extended for armel wget http://www.servideo.org/debian/Pd-0.42.5-extended_light_armel.deb dpkg -i Pd-0.42.5-extended_light_armel.deb Note that if you had previously troubles with the dependencies of pd- extended, make a dpkg -P pdextended 3/ go to: /usr/share/applications/pd-extended.desktop and replace Exec=pasuspender -- /usr/bin/pdextended -alsa %F by: Exec=pdextended -alsa (-- depending the space left, you should install also alsa-base for that) or by: Exec=pdextended -oss (-- my choice) 4/Run Pd-extended or puredata on the Freerunner: a/ Go to Main Menu Applications QX b/ Select options (white file on the bottom left) and click favourites c/ Select pd-extended d/ Quit QX and come back to QX e/ Select pd-xextended and set on options the settings like for example: prevent suspending, Prevent screen diming, Use Window Manager and Full screen and save. f/ Select pd-extended g/ Launch pd-extended with Options Launch. If you want to install puredata instead of pd-extended: apt-get install puredata Best, Cosmin Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 12:58:45 +0100 From: o...@ogeem.be To: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd I would be happy to know how you did install pd on your freerunner... I did tried to install from rep (using debian QText v28) and it doesn't start, PDa seems too old to install (need osso-esd wich is not available...) I had been able to install it before but not anymore :/ any hints ? tks Ol. ogeem.be okno.be Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd To: cosmin O_O horiacos...@hotmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 4cdd2b53.9050...@iem.at Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 11/12/2010 11:11 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if I done the good way of measurments, but I've only choose the 10ms option on audio buffer and test some patches to see if the sound was correct. And it was (without cranks). ah i see. the 10ms option does not mean so much. it only affects the buffer Pd uses internally; the audio-subsystem will add latency on top of that. the only reliable way to test latency is to measure it (by means of cables). which OS are you running on the FreeRunner? FSO? android? fgamr IOhannes -- next part -- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list “We must become the change we want to see. - Mahatma Gandhi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
Ok, there is also a full pd-extended version for armel (except pix_kaleidoscope and curve3d) there: http://www.servideo.org/debian/ Cosmin CC: o...@ogeem.be; pd-list@iem.at From: h...@at.or.at To: horiacos...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 11:22:01 -0500 This would be great to have as a wiki page on puredata.info, thanks for making the build. .hc On Nov 17, 2010, at 9:27 AM, cosmin O_O wrote:Hi, That's simple: Install pd-extended (Armel version) There is no OpenGL support on the Freerunner so Gem, pdp, pidip are not compiled on this version. 1/ Install dependencies: wget http://www.debian-multimedia.org/pool/main/d/debian-multimedia-keyring/debian-multimedia-keyring_2008.10.16_all.deb dpkg -i debian-multimedia-keyring_2008.10.16_all.deb nano -w /etc/apt/sources list and add: deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org lenny main non-free then: apt-get install x-ttcidfont-conf tcllib libfftw3-3 libflite1 libjack0 libmp3lame0 libogg0 libspeex1 libvorbis0a libvorbisenc2 libvorbisfile3 tcl8.5 tk8.5 2/ Install Pd-extended for armel wget http://www.servideo.org/debian/Pd-0.42.5-extended_light_armel.deb dpkg -i Pd-0.42.5-extended_light_armel.deb Note that if you had previously troubles with the dependencies of pd-extended, make a dpkg -P pdextended 3/ go to: /usr/share/applications/pd-extended.desktop and replace Exec=pasuspender -- /usr/bin/pdextended -alsa %F by: Exec=pdextended -alsa (-- depending the space left, you should install also alsa-base for that) or by: Exec=pdextended -oss (-- my choice) 4/Run Pd-extended or puredata on the Freerunner: a/ Go to Main Menu Applications QX b/ Select options (white file on the bottom left) and click favourites c/ Select pd-extended d/ Quit QX and come back to QX e/ Select pd-xextended and set on options the settings like for example: prevent suspending, Prevent screen diming, Use Window Manager and Full screen and save. f/ Select pd-extended g/ Launch pd-extended with Options Launch. If you want to install puredata instead of pd-extended: apt-get install puredata Best, Cosmin Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 12:58:45 +0100 From: o...@ogeem.be To: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd I would be happy to know how you did install pd on your freerunner... I did tried to install from rep (using debian QText v28) and it doesn't start, PDa seems too old to install (need osso-esd wich is not available...) I had been able to install it before but not anymore :/ any hints ? tks Ol. ogeem.be okno.be Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd To: cosmin O_O horiacos...@hotmail.com Cc: pd-list@iem.at Message-ID: 4cdd2b53.9050...@iem.at Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 11/12/2010 11:11 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if I done the good way of measurments, but I've only choose the 10ms option on audio buffer and test some patches to see if the sound was correct. And it was (without cranks). ah i see. the 10ms option does not mean so much. it only affects the buffer Pd uses internally; the audio-subsystem will add latency on top of that. the only reliable way to test latency is to measure it (by means of cables). which OS are you running on the FreeRunner? FSO? android? fgamr IOhannes -- next part -- ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list “We must become the change we want to see. - Mahatma Gandhi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
On Nov 8, 2010, at 2:36 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if that's relevant, but on the Freerunner, pd-extended runs on OSS at 44100 sample rate, and 10 ms delay. Low latency looks solit at this values. I've tested some creb's examples (sbosc~-help.pd, dist~-help.pd and Pd's A1.sinewave.pd). 10ms looks very impressive. in fact so impressive that i would like to ask how you measured it. mfgasdr IOhannes signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
I don't know if I done the good way of measurments, but I've only choose the 10ms option on audio buffer and test some patches to see if the sound was correct. And it was (without cranks). cosmin Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:58:11 +0100 From: zmoel...@iem.at To: pd-list@iem.at Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd On Nov 8, 2010, at 2:36 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if that's relevant, but on the Freerunner, pd-extended runs on OSS at 44100 sample rate, and 10 ms delay. Low latency looks solit at this values. I've tested some creb's examples (sbosc~-help.pd, dist~-help.pd and Pd's A1.sinewave.pd). 10ms looks very impressive. in fact so impressive that i would like to ask how you measured it. mfgasdr IOhannes ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
On 11/12/2010 11:11 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if I done the good way of measurments, but I've only choose the 10ms option on audio buffer and test some patches to see if the sound was correct. And it was (without cranks). ah i see. the 10ms option does not mean so much. it only affects the buffer Pd uses internally; the audio-subsystem will add latency on top of that. the only reliable way to test latency is to measure it (by means of cables). which OS are you running on the FreeRunner? FSO? android? fgamr IOhannes signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
Wow, good to know. I'm still annoying that Google doesn't give you access to ALSA in Android. Lame... .hc On Nov 8, 2010, at 2:36 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if that's relevant, but on the Freerunner, pd-extended runs on OSS at 44100 sample rate, and 10 ms delay. Low latency looks solit at this values. I've tested some creb's examples (sbosc~-help.pd, dist~-help.pd and Pd's A1.sinewave.pd). Cosmin From: h...@at.or.at To: pd-list@iem.at Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 14:15:42 -0500 Subject: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd I'm curious about people's experience about getting low latency performance using Pd on ARM. From what I've seen Pd on iPod Touch/ iPhone is the best. Has anyone gotten solid 20ms latency from an ARM/ Linux board or phone? .hc All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated -John Donne ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list “We must become the change we want to see. - Mahatma Gandhi ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
So there's a Tcl/Tk port to QX? I know that its not Android, I was just complaining about the huge missed opportunity with Android's lame audio support. .hc On Nov 11, 2010, at 2:43 PM, cosmin O_O wrote: I'm not on Android but on Qtmoko. I run pd-extended from an application called QX, a minimal window system. cosmin CC: pd-list@iem.at From: h...@at.or.at To: horiacos...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:23:10 -0500 Wow, good to know. I'm still annoying that Google doesn't give you access to ALSA in Android. Lame... .hc On Nov 8, 2010, at 2:36 AM, cosmin O_O wrote: I don't know if that's relevant, but on the Freerunner, pd-extended runs on OSS at 44100 sample rate, and 10 ms delay. Low latency looks solit at this values. I've tested some creb's examples (sbosc~-help.pd, dist~-help.pd and Pd's A1.sinewave.pd). Cosmin From: h...@at.or.at To: pd-list@iem.at Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 14:15:42 -0500 Subject: [PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd I'm curious about people's experience about getting low latency performance using Pd on ARM. From what I've seen Pd on iPod Touch/ iPhone is the best. Has anyone gotten solid 20ms latency from an ARM/ Linux board or phone? .hc All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated -John Donne ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list “We must become the change we want to see. - Mahatma Gandhi If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.- Thomas Jefferson ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] lowest latency ARM board for Pd
I'm curious about people's experience about getting low latency performance using Pd on ARM. From what I've seen Pd on iPod Touch/ iPhone is the best. Has anyone gotten solid 20ms latency from an ARM/ Linux board or phone? .hc All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated -John Donne ___ Pd-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
