Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006, Damian Stewart wrote: maybe when i can be bothered pissing around with it again. last time it swallowed two full days of my life that i'm never going to get back. That's a rather crude way to do the accounting of your time. How can you be so sure that you didn't do or understand anything in those two days that is going to be useful later on? At this point, you just don't know. _ _ __ ___ _ _ _ ... | Mathieu Bouchard - tél:+1.514.383.3801 - http://artengine.ca/matju | Freelance Digital Arts Engineer, Montréal QC Canada___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
sven a écrit : max/msp is really worth the money especially if you need a gui Learning how to make a GUI is really worth if we need a GUI. May I ask: how does MaxMSP gives any hint about making a pretty fast GUI? @damian (2): what's wrong with the pd-win32 binaries available? We've got many things to tell about it, so let's start a topic about it, anytime. here's a few examples: _ limitations of the entries in registry (10 libraries max) _ no compatibility of the last versions with pdvst _ some undocumented set of patches, libraries, and internals _ no compatibility of some externals (pdp, for example that might never be available on win32 but we can try it with dowloading, burning, and booting the last Dynebolic marvel, just for the price of the empty CDrom and internet connection) _ ... Win32 has it's own limitations anyway, the Windows Midi Driver latency is the best example I think of what we couldn't fix under windows. So using linux on a PC for using fully such things like PD is inevitable. Anyway, it's hard to think that we could use a PC fully with a winOS, without counting all security problems we could encounter on microswift products. So one make with what one has, and most people in pd-list are doing good things, everyone is allowed to put the hands in sources for improving the code. PD core and external developpers are almost always available, I severly think it's not the case with the developpers market products, but I might be wrong? PatCo. ___ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
sven wrote: @damian (2): what's wrong with the pd-win32 binaries available? 1) midi crashes, which I could figure out and fix for myself, if I could compile from source 2) my entire rig tends to triple its cpu usage for no apparent reason after a quasi-random length of time, which seems to be a vaguely repeatable error, which I would like to compile from source to figure out 3) line doesn't have a right outlet that it bangs on completion, which I could fix myself if compiling from source; yes I know I could just build an abstraction but that's not the point 4) tooltips on inlets, which i could and would add myself, if i could compile from source 5) just random crashes, which i could try to investigate/fix myself, if i could compile from source (i have a significant amount of commercial software development experience tracking down extremely obscure crashes in c/c++ code) 6) i want to write my own gui objects (to match or exceed those that come with max/msp) but i don't have a pd.lib and since i can't compile from source i can't make my own, so actually i can't write my own gui objects. basically, i want to use pd, and would be willing to put up with its idiosyncracies if i could compile it myself and make changes i felt were necessary where they were necessary. however, i can't compile it from source, and every time i try i get either shouted at, told that the windows version isn't really supported, or helped for a few steps and then given up on when it becomes clear that it's not a simple newbie problem i'm suffering, and is rather something fundamentally broken about the administration of the windows source. in the end i realise that i'd much rather be making music, and dealing with this kind of crap really isn't making music. -- Damian Stewart +64 27 305 4107 f r e y live music with machines http://www.frey.co.nz http://www.myspace.com/freyed ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
Damian Stewart a écrit : because (correct me if I'm wrong) no-one else seems willing to. because the feeling i get from the community here is that even if i do write an incredibly detailed and amazing bug report /no-one is going to care because it's the windows version/. Have you got an example in your archive? midi on windows is my main sticking point. if people care about the the windows version, why is midi on windows /still/ 'dangerous'? surely midi control is fundamental to serious performance-based usage of a program like pd? I don't, I have not experienced crashes caused by MIDI in pd, anyway, I am trying to not use MIDI under windows for reasons explained in last post, and pd has nothing to do with encountered problem with this obsolete protocol. i mean building my own GUI objects, which working along with the pd program itself. What's the efficiency problems with Toxy/[widget]? It works good on my machines (loads fast, doesn't lag...) and it's possible to make very nice things with, like a movie viewer, an explorer fork, only ix has done some work with it, but this work seems to be a good start, for making something pretty, fast and usefull. i was wanting to experiment with using directx rather than tcl/tk for rendering graphics to get some real high-performance stuff going on, Really? Would you be interested about using DELPHI for this project? which is going to require building in c, which as i understand it requires a pd.lib. Well I am still a newbee and doesn't understand why pd.lib is required for building in C. PatCo. ___ Yahoo! Mail réinvente le mail ! Découvrez le nouveau Yahoo! Mail et son interface révolutionnaire. http://fr.mail.yahoo.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
Patco wrote: midi on windows is my main sticking point. if people care about the the windows version, why is midi on windows /still/ 'dangerous'? surely midi control is fundamental to serious performance-based usage of a program like pd? I don't, I have not experienced crashes caused by MIDI in pd, anyway, I am trying to not use MIDI under windows for reasons explained in last post, and pd has nothing to do with encountered problem with this obsolete protocol. most consumer-level control surfaces (novation, are midi devices. to the best of my knowledge there are very few control surfaces that use osc, for the main reason that osc is several orders of magnitude more difficult to implement on a microcontroller chip of the kind used to drive music control devices. despite its limitations (7-bit fader/pot control, ugh) midi is far from obsolete, unfortunately. i mean building my own GUI objects, which working along with the pd program itself. What's the efficiency problems with Toxy/[widget]? It works good on my machines (loads fast, doesn't lag...) and it's possible to make very nice things with, like a movie viewer, an explorer fork, only ix has done some work with it, but this work seems to be a good start, for making something pretty, fast and usefull. toxy looks great in all the screenshots i've seen, but it crashes and/or refuses to load on my machine. toxy not working was one of the reasons i wanted to get compile from source working.. i was wanting to experiment with using directx rather than tcl/tk for rendering graphics to get some real high-performance stuff going on, Really? Would you be interested about using DELPHI for this project? i don't really know delphi as a language, but i don't see why i should need to use delphi as i already can do c. which is going to require building in c, which as i understand it requires a pd.lib. Well I am still a newbee and doesn't understand why pd.lib is required for building in C. you need the .lib to link against, so that your external and pd can talk to each other. -- Damian Stewart +64 27 305 4107 f r e y live music with machines http://www.frey.co.nz http://www.myspace.com/freyed ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
On 11/10/06, Damian Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: midi on windows is my main sticking point. if people care about the the windows version, why is midi on windows /still/ 'dangerous'? surely midi control is fundamental to serious performance-based usage of a program like pd? Is MIDI really broken? Because despite those messages, I've never had problems running MIDI with PD. Perhaps this message is not current? For instance, I got great results feeding generative stuff from PD into Ableton which I used to host some VST's. I left this program running all day and night and it was still running great in the morning*. (There are things that mysteriously crash PD all the time though). One reason NOT to use Max/MSP on the PC: it seems to run much better on Mac than on PC last I saw. For example, on PC, in order to get a video stream from a webcam into jitter, it requires a third party app that converts the video to a quickstream format. And guess what, a typical Logitech webcam off the shelf, just doesn't work with this third party app. The same webcam worked great, and immediately, under PD+gem for me on win32. ~David ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
On Fri, 2006-11-10 at 23:33 +1300, Damian Stewart wrote: i was wanting to experiment with using directx rather than tcl/tk for rendering graphics to get some real high-performance stuff going on, whoooaaa that would be a reason for me to switch back to windows when doing pd. or would there be a way in linux to have a fast gui as well? (not that i plan to implement it :-) ) and pd data structure is a nice way for building many kinds of user interfaces. except it's *incredibly* slow if you get a decent amount of data on-screen. indeed cheers roman ___ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
Mathieu Bouchard a écrit : On Fri, 10 Nov 2006, Patco wrote: I've tried some stand alones made with the payware version, they are not very efficient. Hmm, what's the payware version? I've confused the issue with replacing MAXmsp by payware. So, I've tried some win32 standalone MAX patches, and they were very slow at loading, and didn't work very well, but I didn't try many different ones, those problems might come from developpers mistakes rather than MAX itself. PatCo. ___ Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses http://fr.answers.yahoo.com ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
alright, I have to say, for the most part I agree with Yves. If a user 'needs software right now for his/her gig tomorrow night' it might actually be better to spend money on something like MaxMSP rather than chasing down countless bugs on such a horrible build system like MinGW on a proprietary box like MS-Windows. Did you pay your $195 license fee? Microsoft has their eye on you remember the EULA you clicked before installing anything? That could land you in a whole mess of legal trouble if you don't watch what you do very closely... Rather than insult the free software efforts and donated time of countless people it might be better in this case to simply spend the money on the product that assuredly works within the time you need it by so, as you say, you can have the maximum time dedicated to making music. The rationale? Well, someone somewhere gets paid a LOT of money to perfect things like the Max GUI objects to work on Windows. Last time I checked, no one gets paid in this way for developing Pd. Sure maybe matju or Hans get paid some money by some interested party to have GEM support in GridFlow or Hans gets paid to build the pd-extended distribution on every *nix there is, but the point is - Your time is also worth money. So you can either spend some money to buy a commercial product that has been endlessly debugged to 'perform right now for what you need it for at this moment without issues' or you can spend your own time donating fixes and chasing bugs that will no doubt help others along the way in the future, in your similar situation. Personally I find trying to compile things on Windows is like traveling through a sewer. Sure, you get to your destination all right but at the end when its over you say to yourself did I really have to go through all that just now??? Boy I smell bad ./d5 On Nov 10, 2006, at 8:32 AM, Yves Degoyon wrote: well, i must say the first agressive message was not mine, but like, 'pd is shit - i will buy a serious software' i just said ok for this, but i didn't know you really tried on linux, so it's a pity your usb card doesn't work, could you give more details? maybe someone here knows how to fix it. i personaly stopped supporting windows, but that's only my choice. sevy ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
Unfortunately, MaxMSP does not run that well on Windows. I think I just recounted how PD+Gem runs a webcam on PC, that won't run with Max, for example. So without Pure Data, one is really stuck with programs like Reaktor and Synthedit on PC. (I highly recommend Synthedit, btw, one can develop a basic VST very quickly.) I guess for visuals, you'd have as the primary choice. Pure Data actually has the potential to run well on PC, and it just needs more win developers. Those of you who hate windows should just get over the fact that this is CROSS PLATFORM software. Let me just say for the record, when PD does work, it works just fine on PC. It is not the nightmare many people imply, it is simply underdeveloped. Many of us don't use PD because it's free software - I use it primarily because I don't know of any alternative besides running Max on a Macintosh, and Macs are prohibitively expensive. It can do stuff no other software can do. (Well ChucK is looking like an interesting contender actually...) If and when PD becomes Linux and Mac only it would be fine to tell windows users they are out of luck. But it seems out of line to say that users shouldn't run a cross-platform software on one of the platforms that it is supposed to run on. ~David On 11/10/06, day 5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: alright, I have to say, for the most part I agree with Yves. If a user 'needs software right now for his/her gig tomorrow night' it might actually be better to spend money on something like MaxMSP rather than chasing down countless bugs on such a horrible build system like MinGW on a proprietary box like MS-Windows. Did you pay your $195 license fee? Microsoft has their eye on you remember the EULA you clicked before installing anything? That could land you in a whole mess of legal trouble if you don't watch what you do very closely... Rather than insult the free software efforts and donated time of countless people it might be better in this case to simply spend the money on the product that assuredly works within the time you need it by so, as you say, you can have the maximum time dedicated to making music. The rationale? Well, someone somewhere gets paid a LOT of money to perfect things like the Max GUI objects to work on Windows. Last time I checked, no one gets paid in this way for developing Pd. Sure maybe matju or Hans get paid some money by some interested party to have GEM support in GridFlow or Hans gets paid to build the pd-extended distribution on every *nix there is, but the point is - Your time is also worth money. So you can either spend some money to buy a commercial product that has been endlessly debugged to 'perform right now for what you need it for at this moment without issues' or you can spend your own time donating fixes and chasing bugs that will no doubt help others along the way in the future, in your similar situation. Personally I find trying to compile things on Windows is like traveling through a sewer. Sure, you get to your destination all right but at the end when its over you say to yourself did I really have to go through all that just now??? Boy I smell bad ./d5 On Nov 10, 2006, at 8:32 AM, Yves Degoyon wrote: well, i must say the first agressive message was not mine, but like, 'pd is shit - i will buy a serious software' i just said ok for this, but i didn't know you really tried on linux, so it's a pity your usb card doesn't work, could you give more details? maybe someone here knows how to fix it. i personaly stopped supporting windows, but that's only my choice. sevy ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
[PD] windows compile - one last try
Hi everyone, Before I completely give up on pd and buy a copy of Max/MSP, I'm going to give compiling pd, so I can fix the things that bug me, one more try. Can someone who has done so very recently (as in within the last two months) point me to an up-to-date tutorial on compiling under Windows that actually works? Or at the very least tell me which version I should be checking out of CVS (and which CVS repository to get it from). Thanks, -- Damian Stewart +64 27 305 4107 f r e y live music with machines http://www.frey.co.nz http://www.myspace.com/freyed ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
Re: [PD] windows compile - one last try
Damian Stewart wrote: Hi everyone, Before I completely give up on pd and buy a copy of Max/MSP, I'm going to give compiling pd, so I can fix the things that bug me, one more try. Can someone who has done so very recently (as in within the last two months) point me to an up-to-date tutorial on compiling under Windows that actually works? Or at the very least tell me which version I should be checking out of CVS (and which CVS repository to get it from). Thanks, hey, before spitting on pd, could you consider changing the root of your system? ( and a few brain cells too ? ) saludos, sevy ___ PD-list@iem.at mailing list UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management - http://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
