Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

Don't ship the entire patch.
For example, suppose I'm selling a patch where the user can input single word 
"easing" styles like "ease-in-out", "rubber-band", "drunken-walk", etc., and 
it outputs lists of numbers that can be input into [vline~].  I'd do it this 
way:
[style-name(|[my-abstraction]|[ (|[vline~]
Which I can ship as
[style-name(|[netsend]
[netreceive]|[ (|[vline~]

I'm ignoring the interface for netsend/netreceive for the moment, but you 
get the idea.  The "business" logic stays on your machine, and remains a 
black box to your agent until you trust him/her.
 
-Jonathan


On Thursday, May 12, 2016 6:28 AM, Lorenzo Sutton 
 wrote:
 

 On 07/05/2016 18:14, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
> Wonder e.g. why the Max platform is more popular, even if its
> commercial. Commerciality isn’t stopping people from using it.

What kind of (scientific) research have you conducted to conclude that 
"Max platform is more popular"?

What is your definition and criteria for "popularity"?
What is your sample group(s)?
What data have you collected and taken into account to support your 
statement?

Thanks.

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Lorenzo Sutton]

On 07/05/2016 18:14, Matti Viljamaa wrote:

Wonder e.g. why the Max platform is more popular, even if its
commercial. Commerciality isn’t stopping people from using it.


What kind of (scientific) research have you conducted to conclude that 
"Max platform is more popular"?


What is your definition and criteria for "popularity"?
What is your sample group(s)?
What data have you collected and taken into account to support your 
statement?


Thanks.

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Alexandre Torres Porres]

2016-05-09 11:47 GMT-03:00 Joe White :

>
> FYI you can also use heavy to create Pd externals (from a Pd patch), it'll
> also benefit in some cases from a speed boost.
>

this sounds like something related to max's gen~

and it'd be good to have something similar in Pd Vanilla
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 2016-05-10 17:19, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> On 05/10/2016 04:38 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
> 
>>  * the GPL'd externals as binary with their source code and License
>>  * my closed-source patch
> 
> inal, but i sincerely hope that this is a violation of the GPL.
> (though i'm afraid that this is a bit fuzzy, and there might be some
> loopholes or even larger holes to allow this).

ah, here is a reference:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IfInterpreterIsGPL

which states very clearly, that the license of the interpreter (in our
case: Pd's BSD license) has no effect on the license of the programs
(your patch).
however, if your interpreted program (patch) uses bindings to other
facilities (an external) covered by the GPL, then your program must be
released in a GPL-compatible way.

fgmasdr
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[IOhannes m zmoelnig]

On 2016-05-11 06:33, Charles Z Henry wrote:
> Modified versions of Pd without the GPL

???
what's the "unmodified version of Pd with the GPL" you seem to imply exists.

fgmasdr
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Pagano, Patrick]

But we'll be missing out on awesome front ends we can pay for N stuff!

Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Interactive Media & Education
+1352.226.2016
https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/


On May 11, 2016, at 1:09 AM, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list 
> wrote:

> No--INAL, either, but program inputs are not subject to GPL.

Is there an example of proprietary software that ships with a GPL'd plug-in?

You may be technically right.  But in the context of a question about whether 
some person or business
can come along and "hijack our stuff", the practical answer is very likely to 
be "no".  And as someone
who's spent too much time reading the code for some of that stuff, I'd also 
add, "Good luck".

-Jonathan


On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 12:33 AM, Charles Z Henry 
> wrote:


On May 10, 2016 9:39 AM, "Roman Haefeli" 
@gmail.com>
 wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2016-05-07 at 16:13 +, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list wrote:
> > Hi Matti,
> > Pd Vanilla has a 3-clause BSD license.  This license allows you
> > to use the code in proprietary software and distribute binaries
> > without
> > also distributing the corresponding source code.
> >
> >
> > It also allows you to make changes/improvements to the code without
> > sharing them back with the community.
> >
> >
> > As for external libraries-- it depends on how they are licensed.  Some
> > are
> > licensed GPL, which doesn't allow you to do what you're asking.
>
> I'm just curious: If I implemented a way to close-source Pure Data
> patches, would I violate the GPL if I ship:
>
>  * Pd as a binary
>  * the GPL'd externals as binary with their source code and License
>  * my closed-source patch
>
No--INAL, either, but program inputs are not subject to GPL.  Distributing 
software that links with GPL licensed libraries requires that the free/open 
software requirements of GPL are met for each program or library linked with.  
So, all that's additionally required is to distribute Pd's source code or 
provide a link to the code.
If you had to modify Pd in the process so it reads encrypted patches, you'd 
give away the method of encryption in the code and make the keys easier to find.
So then, one also has to find a decent method of obfuscating the inputs without 
linking with or modifying Pd.  An additional binary that reads an encrypted 
patch translates it into a readable format but doesn't link with Pd.  It can 
also be distributed without source code.  But, then there's an intermediate 
form of the patch when it's run that can be read and so it is not a foolproof 
method of hiding anything.
Modified versions of Pd without the GPL can be distributed without providing 
source code.  So one could add a method of reading an encrypted patch.

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

> No--INAL, either, but program inputs are not subject to GPL.
Is there an example of proprietary software that ships with a GPL'd plug-in?
You may be technically right.  But in the context of a question about whether 
some person or business can come along and "hijack our stuff", the practical 
answer is very likely to be "no".  And as someone who's spent too much time 
reading the code for some of that stuff, I'd also add, "Good luck".
-Jonathan 

On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 12:33 AM, Charles Z Henry  
wrote:
 

 On May 10, 2016 9:39 AM, "Roman Haefeli"  wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2016-05-07 at 16:13 +, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list wrote:
> > Hi Matti,
> > Pd Vanilla has a 3-clause BSD license.  This license allows you
> > to use the code in proprietary software and distribute binaries
> > without
> > also distributing the corresponding source code.
> >
> >
> > It also allows you to make changes/improvements to the code without
> > sharing them back with the community.
> >
> >
> > As for external libraries-- it depends on how they are licensed.  Some
> > are
> > licensed GPL, which doesn't allow you to do what you're asking.
>
> I'm just curious: If I implemented a way to close-source Pure Data
> patches, would I violate the GPL if I ship:
>
>  * Pd as a binary
>  * the GPL'd externals as binary with their source code and License
>  * my closed-source patch
>No--INAL, either, but program inputs are not subject to GPL.  Distributing 
>software that links with GPL licensed libraries requires that the free/open 
>software requirements of GPL are met for each program or library linked with.  
>So, all that's additionally required is to distribute Pd's source code or 
>provide a link to the code.If you had to modify Pd in the process so it reads 
>encrypted patches, you'd give away the method of encryption in the code and 
>make the keys easier to find.So then, one also has to find a decent method of 
>obfuscating the inputs without linking with or modifying Pd.  An additional 
>binary that reads an encrypted patch translates it into a readable format but 
>doesn't link with Pd.  It can also be distributed without source code.  But, 
>then there's an intermediate form of the patch when it's run that can be read 
>and so it is not a foolproof method of hiding anything.Modified versions of Pd 
>without the GPL can be distributed without providing source code.  So one 
>could add a method of reading an encrypted patch.
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Charles Z Henry]

On May 10, 2016 9:39 AM, "Roman Haefeli" @
gmail.com > wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2016-05-07 at 16:13 +, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list wrote:
> > Hi Matti,
> > Pd Vanilla has a 3-clause BSD license.  This license allows you
> > to use the code in proprietary software and distribute binaries
> > without
> > also distributing the corresponding source code.
> >
> >
> > It also allows you to make changes/improvements to the code without
> > sharing them back with the community.
> >
> >
> > As for external libraries-- it depends on how they are licensed.  Some
> > are
> > licensed GPL, which doesn't allow you to do what you're asking.
>
> I'm just curious: If I implemented a way to close-source Pure Data
> patches, would I violate the GPL if I ship:
>
>  * Pd as a binary
>  * the GPL'd externals as binary with their source code and License
>  * my closed-source patch
>

No--INAL, either, but program inputs are not subject to GPL.  Distributing
software that links with GPL licensed libraries requires that the free/open
software requirements of GPL are met for each program or library linked
with.  So, all that's additionally required is to distribute Pd's source
code or provide a link to the code.

If you had to modify Pd in the process so it reads encrypted patches, you'd
give away the method of encryption in the code and make the keys easier to
find.

So then, one also has to find a decent method of obfuscating the inputs
without linking with or modifying Pd.  An additional binary that reads an
encrypted patch translates it into a readable format but doesn't link with
Pd.  It can also be distributed without source code.  But, then there's an
intermediate form of the patch when it's run that can be read and so it is
not a foolproof method of hiding anything.

Modified versions of Pd without the GPL can be distributed without
providing source code.  So one could add a method of reading an encrypted
patch.
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

> I'm just curious: If I implemented a way to close-source Pure Data
patches, would I violate the GPL if I ship:

> * Pd as a binary
> * the GPL'd externals as binary with their source code and License
> * my closed-source patch

That has to be a GPL violation.
On the other hand:* proprietary Pd binary* place for user to enter url of 
remote repository of packages* Deken exists
This can't possibly be a GPL violation.
I'm not advocating for building proprietary binaries, but this is such a 
trivial workaround it'd be silly not to mention it.
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[IOhannes m zmölnig]

On 05/10/2016 04:38 PM, Roman Haefeli wrote:
>>
>> As for external libraries-- it depends on how they are licensed.  Some
>> are 
>> licensed GPL, which doesn't allow you to do what you're asking.
> 
> I'm just curious: If I implemented a way to close-source Pure Data
> patches, would I violate the GPL if I ship:
> 
>  * Pd as a binary

no, because Pd is not distributed under the GPL.

>  * the GPL'd externals as binary with their source code and License
>  * my closed-source patch

inal, but i sincerely hope that this is a violation of the GPL.
(though i'm afraid that this is a bit fuzzy, and there might be some
loopholes or even larger holes to allow this).

gfmsard
IOhannes



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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Roman Haefeli]

On Sat, 2016-05-07 at 16:13 +, Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list wrote:
> Hi Matti,
> Pd Vanilla has a 3-clause BSD license.  This license allows you 
> to use the code in proprietary software and distribute binaries
> without 
> also distributing the corresponding source code.
> 
> 
> It also allows you to make changes/improvements to the code without 
> sharing them back with the community.
> 
> 
> As for external libraries-- it depends on how they are licensed.  Some
> are 
> licensed GPL, which doesn't allow you to do what you're asking.

I'm just curious: If I implemented a way to close-source Pure Data
patches, would I violate the GPL if I ship:

 * Pd as a binary
 * the GPL'd externals as binary with their source code and License
 * my closed-source patch

Roman


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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Joe White]

@Patrick

heavy  converts straight to Unity plugins, see
here as an example: https://enzienaudio.com/h/diplojocus/woosh/ you can
download the Unity plugin (we compile the binary for you as well) and drag
it straight into your project. You can use the C# wrapper and instantiate
it on game components or use the specific audio mixer plugin. Bit more info
here: https://enzienaudio.com/docs/unity.html

Unreal integration should be possible, I just haven't got round to it yet.

@Matti

FYI you can also use heavy to create Pd externals (from a Pd patch), it'll
also benefit in some cases from a speed boost.

Cheers,
Joe

On 8 May 2016 at 18:47, Miller Puckette  wrote:

> Aha... thanks.  I still regret messing that convention...
>
> M
>
> On Sun, May 08, 2016 at 08:38:03PM +0900, Max wrote:
> > On 2016년 05월 08일 01:53, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > > In fact Max uses some Pd code inside it.  I released Pd under BSD
> license
> > > partly to encourage that possibility.
> > >
> > > Pd is also used as part of game audio engines (I think the first game
> to use
> > > it was Spore, perhaps 10 years ago).
> >
> > Unfortunately I have to correct you there. We learned from Kent Jolly at
> > the Pure Data convention 2011 that they have used their own audio engine
> > in Spore, but used Pure Data for the procedural sound logic!
> >
> >
> https://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/wiki/PDCON:Conference/Using_Pure_Data_in_Spore_and_Darkspore
> >
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Miller Puckette]

Aha... thanks.  I still regret messing that convention...

M

On Sun, May 08, 2016 at 08:38:03PM +0900, Max wrote:
> On 2016년 05월 08일 01:53, Miller Puckette wrote:
> > In fact Max uses some Pd code inside it.  I released Pd under BSD license
> > partly to encourage that possibility.
> > 
> > Pd is also used as part of game audio engines (I think the first game to use
> > it was Spore, perhaps 10 years ago).
> 
> Unfortunately I have to correct you there. We learned from Kent Jolly at
> the Pure Data convention 2011 that they have used their own audio engine
> in Spore, but used Pure Data for the procedural sound logic!
> 
> https://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/wiki/PDCON:Conference/Using_Pure_Data_in_Spore_and_Darkspore
> 
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Max]

On 2016년 05월 08일 01:53, Miller Puckette wrote:
> In fact Max uses some Pd code inside it.  I released Pd under BSD license
> partly to encourage that possibility.
> 
> Pd is also used as part of game audio engines (I think the first game to use
> it was Spore, perhaps 10 years ago).

Unfortunately I have to correct you there. We learned from Kent Jolly at
the Pure Data convention 2011 that they have used their own audio engine
in Spore, but used Pure Data for the procedural sound logic!

https://www.uni-weimar.de/medien/wiki/PDCON:Conference/Using_Pure_Data_in_Spore_and_Darkspore

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

> What about Pure Data C externs?> How are they loaded into Pure Data? Are they 
> in readable form?
They are C binaries, so they are as readable as any other C binary when they 
are loaded into Pd.
But you can certainly keep a private repository for the code and release/sell 
the binaries using whatever proprietary license you want.
-Jonathan



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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Pagano, Patrick]

Several of them like magicolo are what I can "proof of concept"
They are not integrated nor worthy of purchase so to speak.
I am quite familiar with github and Google.

Sent from my iPad

On May 7, 2016, at 4:10 PM, Scott R. Looney 
<scottrloo...@gmail.com<mailto:scottrloo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

+1 on Patrick's idea! and to continue to some extent where Patrick left off, 
you can use magicolo's uPD project as a jumping off point: 
https://github.com/Magicolo/uPD. i tried it out but and had issues 
understanding this approach personally but i think it might hold some 
potential, as it can instance PD multiple times rather than just once.

best,
scott

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Pagano, Patrick 
<p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu<mailto:p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu>> wrote:

Want to make some dough off of pd?


Make a Pd Unity3D plugin so i can drop my patches in as sound sources/effects 
in Unity3D or UDK without custom coding.


pp




Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Audio and Projection Design Faculty
Digital Worlds Institute
University of Florida, USA
(352)294-2020<tel:%28352%29294-2020>

From: Matti Viljamaa <mvilja...@kapsi.fi<mailto:mvilja...@kapsi.fi>>
Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2016 3:13 PM
To: Pagano, Patrick
Cc: pd-l...@iem.at<mailto:pd-l...@iem.at>; Miller Puckette; 
pd-l...@mail.iem.at<mailto:pd-l...@mail.iem.at>
Subject: Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial 
development)?

Or even straight C -> binary and then have Pd open the binary as patch.

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 22:01, Matti Viljamaa 
<mvilja...@kapsi.fi<mailto:mvilja...@kapsi.fi>> wrote:

Anyone know if compiling Pd patch to C could offer a possibility, e.g. as an 
extension of Pd?

There are some around:
http://resenv.media.mit.edu/PuDAC/sw.html
https://github.com/sharebrained/pd_compiler

So patch -> C -> binary and then have Pd somehow open the binary as patch?

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 21:08, Matti Viljamaa 
<mvilja...@kapsi.fi<mailto:mvilja...@kapsi.fi>> wrote:

I think being open to commercial development could make it attractive to 
develop e.g. high quality oscillators and filters for Pd.
Commercial synthesisers and effects are often better than freeware.

Reaktor has a lot of good free ensembles, but development wise its also more 
refined product (i.e. the development ought to be less painful).

I think it’d be interesting to be able to have a platform where one can combine 
open source and commercial “modules”. Best of the both worlds, so to speak.

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 21:04, Pagano, Patrick 
<p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu<mailto:p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu>> wrote:

But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches back to 
the community?

Have you seen
Monolog X


Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Interactive Media & Education
+1352.226.2016<tel:%2B1352.226.2016>
https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/


On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa 
<mvilja...@kapsi.fi<mailto:mvilja...@kapsi.fi>> wrote:

What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or 
perhaps LibPd?
Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?

The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in Pd.

What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar to 
Reaktor’s Blocks that would
allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could motivate 
developers to develop patches
in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised patches.

Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in Pd. But 
I wouldn’t want to
spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I could do 
that using some other platform.

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette <m...@ucsd.edu<mailto:m...@ucsd.edu>> 
wrote:

You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.

cheers
Miller

On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can you 
open a Pd patch distributed as binary?

I only found this:

How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 
<https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone>

-Matti



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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Matti Viljamaa]

What about Pure Data C externs?
How are they loaded into Pure Data? Are they in readable form?

-Matti

> On 07 May 2016, at 23:19, Jonathan Wilkes  wrote:
> 
> If your aim is to create a compiler for Pd patches (JIT or otherwise, 
> proprietary or otherwise), I have the same faith in Miller sitting down and 
> writing a formal language spec for Pd as I do in you succeeding.
> 
> -Jonathan
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday, May 7, 2016 3:33 PM, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
> 
> 
> It’s just that e.g. VSTs are fundamentally a limited format compared to Pure 
> Data patches.
> There are some modular VST hosts, but not much something like Reaktor that 
> combines both
> high- and low-level and customisation in the same environment.
> 
> At the KVR audio there was a late interest in developing perhaps yet another 
> such platform:
> http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33=461790 
> 
> 
> -Matti
> 
>> On 07 May 2016, at 22:24, Scott R. Looney > > wrote:
>> 
>> hi Matti - the only thing i've seen that is something similar to what you're 
>> asking is the Heavy toolchain from Enzien Audio based on the online 
>> Tannhauser compiler. it can convert a PD patch into C++ where it can then be 
>> used as a plugin for different platforms, including in game audio 
>> middleware. the service is a commercial service if the product you're 
>> planning to use is commercial in nature. at that point you could use it in 
>> something like JUCE to do what you need to make it a full plugin or 
>> standalone app. many commercial companies use PD or Max to prototype what 
>> they eventually sell as commercial software. Joe White is on the list and 
>> may have more info than me on commercial uses of Heavy: 
>> https://enzienaudio.com/ 
>> 
>> scott
>> 
>> On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Matti Viljamaa > > wrote:
>> Or even straight C -> binary and then have Pd open the binary as patch.
>> 
>> -Matti
>> 
>>> On 07 May 2016, at 22:01, Matti Viljamaa >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anyone know if compiling Pd patch to C could offer a possibility, e.g. as 
>>> an extension of Pd?
>>> 
>>> There are some around:
>>> http://resenv.media.mit.edu/PuDAC/sw.html 
>>> 
>>> https://github.com/sharebrained/pd_compiler 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So patch -> C -> binary and then have Pd somehow open the binary as patch?
>>> 
>>> -Matti
>>> 
 On 07 May 2016, at 21:08, Matti Viljamaa > wrote:
 
 I think being open to commercial development could make it attractive to 
 develop e.g. high quality oscillators and filters for Pd.
 Commercial synthesisers and effects are often better than freeware.
 
 Reaktor has a lot of good free ensembles, but development wise its also 
 more refined product (i.e. the development ought to be less painful).
 
 I think it’d be interesting to be able to have a platform where one can 
 combine open source and commercial “modules”. Best of the both worlds, so 
 to speak.
 
 -Matti
 
> On 07 May 2016, at 21:04, Pagano, Patrick  > wrote:
> 
> But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches 
> back to the community?
> 
> Have you seen 
> Monolog X
> 
> 
> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
> Interactive Media & Education
> +1352.226.2016 
> https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/ 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa  > wrote:
> 
>> What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? 
>> Or perhaps LibPd?
>> Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?
>> 
>> The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form 
>> in Pd.
>> 
>> What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar 
>> to Reaktor’s Blocks that would
>> allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could 
>> motivate developers to develop patches
>> in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised 
>> patches. 
>> 
>> Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in 
>> Pd. But I wouldn’t want to
>> spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I 
>> could do that using some other platform.
>> 
>> -Matti
>> 
>>> On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette >> > wrote:
>>> 

Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

If your aim is to create a compiler for Pd patches (JIT or otherwise, 
proprietary or otherwise), I have the same faith in Miller sitting down and 
writing a formal language spec for Pd as I do in you succeeding.
-Jonathan
 

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 3:33 PM, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
 

 It’s just that e.g. VSTs are fundamentally a limited format compared to Pure 
Data patches.There are some modular VST hosts, but not much something like 
Reaktor that combines bothhigh- and low-level and customisation in the same 
environment.
At the KVR audio there was a late interest in developing perhaps yet another 
such platform:http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33=461790
-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 22:24, Scott R. Looney  wrote:
hi Matti - the only thing i've seen that is something similar to what you're 
asking is the Heavy toolchain from Enzien Audio based on the online Tannhauser 
compiler. it can convert a PD patch into C++ where it can then be used as a 
plugin for different platforms, including in game audio middleware. the service 
is a commercial service if the product you're planning to use is commercial in 
nature. at that point you could use it in something like JUCE to do what you 
need to make it a full plugin or standalone app. many commercial companies use 
PD or Max to prototype what they eventually sell as commercial software. Joe 
White is on the list and may have more info than me on commercial uses of 
Heavy: https://enzienaudio.com/
scott
On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:

Or even straight C -> binary and then have Pd open the binary as patch.
-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 22:01, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
Anyone know if compiling Pd patch to C could offer a possibility, e.g. as an 
extension of Pd?
There are some 
around:http://resenv.media.mit.edu/PuDAC/sw.htmlhttps://github.com/sharebrained/pd_compiler
So patch -> C -> binary and then have Pd somehow open the binary as patch?
-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 21:08, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
I think being open to commercial development could make it attractive to 
develop e.g. high quality oscillators and filters for Pd.Commercial 
synthesisers and effects are often better than freeware.

Reaktor has a lot of good free ensembles, but development wise its also more 
refined product (i.e. the development ought to be less painful).
I think it’d be interesting to be able to have a platform where one can combine 
open source and commercial “modules”. Best of the both worlds, so to speak.
-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 21:04, Pagano, Patrick  wrote:
But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches back to 
the community?
Have you seen Monolog X

Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.AInteractive Media & 
Education+1352.226.2016https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/

On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:


What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or 
perhaps LibPd?
Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?

The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in Pd.

What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar to 
Reaktor’s Blocks that would
allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could motivate 
developers to develop patches
in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised patches.

Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in Pd. But 
I wouldn’t want to
spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I could do 
that using some other platform.

-Matti


On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette  wrote:





You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and


keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the


need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.





cheers


Miller





On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:



But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can you 
open a Pd patch distributed as binary?









I only found this:









How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?




https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 










-Matti









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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Scott R. Looney]

+1 on Patrick's idea! and to continue to some extent where Patrick left
off, you can use magicolo's uPD project as a jumping off point:
https://github.com/Magicolo/uPD. i tried it out but and had issues
understanding this approach personally but i think it might hold some
potential, as it can instance PD multiple times rather than just once.

best,
scott

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Pagano, Patrick <p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu>
wrote:

> Want to make some dough off of pd?
>
>
> Make a Pd Unity3D plugin so i can drop my patches in as sound
> sources/effects in Unity3D or UDK without custom coding.
>
>
> pp
>
>
>
>
> *Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A*
> Audio and Projection Design Faculty
> Digital Worlds Institute
> University of Florida, USA
> (352)294-2020
> --
> *From:* Matti Viljamaa <mvilja...@kapsi.fi>
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 7, 2016 3:13 PM
> *To:* Pagano, Patrick
> *Cc:* pd-l...@iem.at; Miller Puckette; pd-l...@mail.iem.at
> *Subject:* Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial
> development)?
>
> Or even straight C -> binary and then have Pd open the binary as patch.
>
> -Matti
>
> On 07 May 2016, at 22:01, Matti Viljamaa <mvilja...@kapsi.fi> wrote:
>
> Anyone know if compiling Pd patch to C could offer a possibility, e.g. as
> an extension of Pd?
>
> There are some around:
> http://resenv.media.mit.edu/PuDAC/sw.html
> https://github.com/sharebrained/pd_compiler
>
> So patch -> C -> binary and then have Pd somehow open the binary as patch?
>
> -Matti
>
> On 07 May 2016, at 21:08, Matti Viljamaa <mvilja...@kapsi.fi> wrote:
>
> I think being open to commercial development could make it attractive to
> develop e.g. high quality oscillators and filters for Pd.
> Commercial synthesisers and effects are often better than freeware.
>
> Reaktor has a lot of good free ensembles, but development wise its also
> more refined product (i.e. the development ought to be less painful).
>
> I think it’d be interesting to be able to have a platform where one can
> combine open source and commercial “modules”. Best of the both worlds, so
> to speak.
>
> -Matti
>
> On 07 May 2016, at 21:04, Pagano, Patrick <p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu>
> wrote:
>
> But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches
> back to the community?
>
> Have you seen
> Monolog X
>
>
> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
> Interactive Media & Education
> +1352.226.2016
> https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/
>
>
> On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa <mvilja...@kapsi.fi> wrote:
>
> What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or
> perhaps LibPd?
> Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?
>
> The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in
> Pd.
>
> What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar to
> Reaktor’s Blocks that would
> allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could
> motivate developers to develop patches
> in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised
> patches.
>
> Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in
> Pd. But I wouldn’t want to
> spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I
> could do that using some other platform.
>
> -Matti
>
> On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette <m...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>
> You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
>
> keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
>
> need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.
>
>
> cheers
>
> Miller
>
>
> On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
>
> But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can
> you open a Pd patch distributed as binary?
>
>
> I only found this:
>
>
> How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
>
> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone <
> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone>
>
>
> -Matti
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>
>
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>
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Dan Wilcox]

There is one already: https://github.com/patricksebastien/libpd4unity 
<https://github.com/patricksebastien/libpd4unity>


Dan Wilcox
@danomatika <https://twitter.com/danomatika>
danomatika.com <http://danomatika.com/>
robotcowboy.com <http://robotcowboy.com/>
> On May 7, 2016, at 1:49 PM, pd-list-requ...@lists.iem.at wrote:
> 
> From: "Pagano, Patrick" <p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu 
> <mailto:p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu>>
> Subject: Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial 
> development)?
> Date: May 7, 2016 at 1:49:51 PM MDT
> To: Matti Viljamaa <mvilja...@kapsi.fi <mailto:mvilja...@kapsi.fi>>
> Cc: "pd-l...@iem.at <mailto:pd-l...@iem.at>" <pd-l...@iem.at 
> <mailto:pd-l...@iem.at>>, Miller Puckette <m...@ucsd.edu 
> <mailto:m...@ucsd.edu>>, "pd-l...@mail.iem.at <mailto:pd-l...@mail.iem.at>" 
> <pd-l...@mail.iem.at <mailto:pd-l...@mail.iem.at>>
> 
> 
> Want to make some dough off of pd?
> 
> Make a Pd Unity3D plugin so i can drop my patches in as sound sources/effects 
> in Unity3D or UDK without custom coding. 
> 

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Pagano, Patrick]

Want to make some dough off of pd?


Make a Pd Unity3D plugin so i can drop my patches in as sound sources/effects 
in Unity3D or UDK without custom coding.


pp




Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Audio and Projection Design Faculty
Digital Worlds Institute
University of Florida, USA
(352)294-2020

From: Matti Viljamaa <mvilja...@kapsi.fi>
Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2016 3:13 PM
To: Pagano, Patrick
Cc: pd-l...@iem.at; Miller Puckette; pd-l...@mail.iem.at
Subject: Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial 
development)?

Or even straight C -> binary and then have Pd open the binary as patch.

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 22:01, Matti Viljamaa 
<mvilja...@kapsi.fi<mailto:mvilja...@kapsi.fi>> wrote:

Anyone know if compiling Pd patch to C could offer a possibility, e.g. as an 
extension of Pd?

There are some around:
http://resenv.media.mit.edu/PuDAC/sw.html
https://github.com/sharebrained/pd_compiler

So patch -> C -> binary and then have Pd somehow open the binary as patch?

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 21:08, Matti Viljamaa 
<mvilja...@kapsi.fi<mailto:mvilja...@kapsi.fi>> wrote:

I think being open to commercial development could make it attractive to 
develop e.g. high quality oscillators and filters for Pd.
Commercial synthesisers and effects are often better than freeware.

Reaktor has a lot of good free ensembles, but development wise its also more 
refined product (i.e. the development ought to be less painful).

I think it'd be interesting to be able to have a platform where one can combine 
open source and commercial "modules". Best of the both worlds, so to speak.

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 21:04, Pagano, Patrick 
<p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu<mailto:p...@digitalworlds.ufl.edu>> wrote:

But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches back to 
the community?

Have you seen
Monolog X


Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Interactive Media & Education
+1352.226.2016
https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/


On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa 
<mvilja...@kapsi.fi<mailto:mvilja...@kapsi.fi>> wrote:

What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or 
perhaps LibPd?
Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?

The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in Pd.

What I've been envisioning would be to create "modules" for Pd similar to 
Reaktor's Blocks that would
allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could motivate 
developers to develop patches
in a more standardized "blocks" form, rather than as unstandardised patches.

Reason, I've been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in Pd. But 
I wouldn't want to
spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I could do 
that using some other platform.

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette <m...@ucsd.edu<mailto:m...@ucsd.edu>> 
wrote:

You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.

cheers
Miller

On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it's not viewable? Can you 
open a Pd patch distributed as binary?

I only found this:

How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 
<https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone>

-Matti



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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Matti Viljamaa]

It’s just that e.g. VSTs are fundamentally a limited format compared to Pure 
Data patches.
There are some modular VST hosts, but not much something like Reaktor that 
combines both
high- and low-level and customisation in the same environment.

At the KVR audio there was a late interest in developing perhaps yet another 
such platform:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33=461790 


-Matti

> On 07 May 2016, at 22:24, Scott R. Looney  wrote:
> 
> hi Matti - the only thing i've seen that is something similar to what you're 
> asking is the Heavy toolchain from Enzien Audio based on the online 
> Tannhauser compiler. it can convert a PD patch into C++ where it can then be 
> used as a plugin for different platforms, including in game audio middleware. 
> the service is a commercial service if the product you're planning to use is 
> commercial in nature. at that point you could use it in something like JUCE 
> to do what you need to make it a full plugin or standalone app. many 
> commercial companies use PD or Max to prototype what they eventually sell as 
> commercial software. Joe White is on the list and may have more info than me 
> on commercial uses of Heavy: https://enzienaudio.com/ 
> 
> 
> scott
> 
> On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Matti Viljamaa  > wrote:
> Or even straight C -> binary and then have Pd open the binary as patch.
> 
> -Matti
> 
>> On 07 May 2016, at 22:01, Matti Viljamaa > > wrote:
>> 
>> Anyone know if compiling Pd patch to C could offer a possibility, e.g. as an 
>> extension of Pd?
>> 
>> There are some around:
>> http://resenv.media.mit.edu/PuDAC/sw.html 
>> 
>> https://github.com/sharebrained/pd_compiler 
>> 
>> 
>> So patch -> C -> binary and then have Pd somehow open the binary as patch?
>> 
>> -Matti
>> 
>>> On 07 May 2016, at 21:08, Matti Viljamaa >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think being open to commercial development could make it attractive to 
>>> develop e.g. high quality oscillators and filters for Pd.
>>> Commercial synthesisers and effects are often better than freeware.
>>> 
>>> Reaktor has a lot of good free ensembles, but development wise its also 
>>> more refined product (i.e. the development ought to be less painful).
>>> 
>>> I think it’d be interesting to be able to have a platform where one can 
>>> combine open source and commercial “modules”. Best of the both worlds, so 
>>> to speak.
>>> 
>>> -Matti
>>> 
 On 07 May 2016, at 21:04, Pagano, Patrick > wrote:
 
 But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches 
 back to the community?
 
 Have you seen 
 Monolog X
 
 
 Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
 Interactive Media & Education
 +1352.226.2016 
 https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/ 
 
 
 
 On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa > wrote:
 
> What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or 
> perhaps LibPd?
> Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?
> 
> The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in 
> Pd.
> 
> What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar to 
> Reaktor’s Blocks that would
> allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could 
> motivate developers to develop patches
> in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised 
> patches. 
> 
> Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in 
> Pd. But I wouldn’t want to
> spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I 
> could do that using some other platform.
> 
> -Matti
> 
>> On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette > > wrote:
>> 
>> You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
>> keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel 
>> the
>> need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.
>> 
>> cheers
>> Miller
>> 
>> On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
>>> But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? 
>>> Can you open a Pd patch distributed as binary?
>>> 
>>> I only found this:
>>> 
>>> How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
>>> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 
>>> 

Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Scott R. Looney]

hi Matti - the only thing i've seen that is something similar to what
you're asking is the Heavy toolchain from Enzien Audio based on the online
Tannhauser compiler. it can convert a PD patch into C++ where it can then
be used as a plugin for different platforms, including in game audio
middleware. the service is a commercial service if the product you're
planning to use is commercial in nature. at that point you could use it in
something like JUCE to do what you need to make it a full plugin or
standalone app. many commercial companies use PD or Max to prototype what
they eventually sell as commercial software. Joe White is on the list and
may have more info than me on commercial uses of Heavy:
https://enzienaudio.com/

scott

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 12:13 PM, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:

> Or even straight C -> binary and then have Pd open the binary as patch.
>
> -Matti
>
> On 07 May 2016, at 22:01, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
>
> Anyone know if compiling Pd patch to C could offer a possibility, e.g. as
> an extension of Pd?
>
> There are some around:
> http://resenv.media.mit.edu/PuDAC/sw.html
> https://github.com/sharebrained/pd_compiler
>
> So patch -> C -> binary and then have Pd somehow open the binary as patch?
>
> -Matti
>
> On 07 May 2016, at 21:08, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
>
> I think being open to commercial development could make it attractive to
> develop e.g. high quality oscillators and filters for Pd.
> Commercial synthesisers and effects are often better than freeware.
>
> Reaktor has a lot of good free ensembles, but development wise its also
> more refined product (i.e. the development ought to be less painful).
>
> I think it’d be interesting to be able to have a platform where one can
> combine open source and commercial “modules”. Best of the both worlds, so
> to speak.
>
> -Matti
>
> On 07 May 2016, at 21:04, Pagano, Patrick 
> wrote:
>
> But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches
> back to the community?
>
> Have you seen
> Monolog X
>
>
> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
> Interactive Media & Education
> +1352.226.2016
> https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/
>
>
> On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
>
> What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or
> perhaps LibPd?
> Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?
>
> The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in
> Pd.
>
> What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar to
> Reaktor’s Blocks that would
> allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could
> motivate developers to develop patches
> in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised
> patches.
>
> Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in
> Pd. But I wouldn’t want to
> spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I
> could do that using some other platform.
>
> -Matti
>
> On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette  wrote:
>
>
> You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
>
> keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
>
> need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.
>
>
> cheers
>
> Miller
>
>
> On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
>
> But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can
> you open a Pd patch distributed as binary?
>
>
> I only found this:
>
>
> How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
>
> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone <
> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone>
>
>
> -Matti
>
>
>
>
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Matti Viljamaa]

Or even straight C -> binary and then have Pd open the binary as patch.

-Matti

> On 07 May 2016, at 22:01, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
> 
> Anyone know if compiling Pd patch to C could offer a possibility, e.g. as an 
> extension of Pd?
> 
> There are some around:
> http://resenv.media.mit.edu/PuDAC/sw.html 
> 
> https://github.com/sharebrained/pd_compiler 
> 
> 
> So patch -> C -> binary and then have Pd somehow open the binary as patch?
> 
> -Matti
> 
>> On 07 May 2016, at 21:08, Matti Viljamaa > > wrote:
>> 
>> I think being open to commercial development could make it attractive to 
>> develop e.g. high quality oscillators and filters for Pd.
>> Commercial synthesisers and effects are often better than freeware.
>> 
>> Reaktor has a lot of good free ensembles, but development wise its also more 
>> refined product (i.e. the development ought to be less painful).
>> 
>> I think it’d be interesting to be able to have a platform where one can 
>> combine open source and commercial “modules”. Best of the both worlds, so to 
>> speak.
>> 
>> -Matti
>> 
>>> On 07 May 2016, at 21:04, Pagano, Patrick >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches back 
>>> to the community?
>>> 
>>> Have you seen 
>>> Monolog X
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
>>> Interactive Media & Education
>>> +1352.226.2016
>>> https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/ 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa >> > wrote:
>>> 
 What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or 
 perhaps LibPd?
 Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?
 
 The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in 
 Pd.
 
 What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar to 
 Reaktor’s Blocks that would
 allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could 
 motivate developers to develop patches
 in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised 
 patches. 
 
 Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in 
 Pd. But I wouldn’t want to
 spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I 
 could do that using some other platform.
 
 -Matti
 
> On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette  > wrote:
> 
> You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
> keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
> need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.
> 
> cheers
> Miller
> 
> On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
>> But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can 
>> you open a Pd patch distributed as binary?
>> 
>> I only found this:
>> 
>> How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
>> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 
>>  
>> > >
>> 
>> -Matti
>> 
 
 
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Matti Viljamaa]

Anyone know if compiling Pd patch to C could offer a possibility, e.g. as an 
extension of Pd?

There are some around:
http://resenv.media.mit.edu/PuDAC/sw.html 

https://github.com/sharebrained/pd_compiler 


So patch -> C -> binary and then have Pd somehow open the binary as patch?

-Matti

> On 07 May 2016, at 21:08, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
> 
> I think being open to commercial development could make it attractive to 
> develop e.g. high quality oscillators and filters for Pd.
> Commercial synthesisers and effects are often better than freeware.
> 
> Reaktor has a lot of good free ensembles, but development wise its also more 
> refined product (i.e. the development ought to be less painful).
> 
> I think it’d be interesting to be able to have a platform where one can 
> combine open source and commercial “modules”. Best of the both worlds, so to 
> speak.
> 
> -Matti
> 
>> On 07 May 2016, at 21:04, Pagano, Patrick > > wrote:
>> 
>> But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches back 
>> to the community?
>> 
>> Have you seen 
>> Monolog X
>> 
>> 
>> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
>> Interactive Media & Education
>> +1352.226.2016
>> https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/ 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa > > wrote:
>> 
>>> What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or 
>>> perhaps LibPd?
>>> Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?
>>> 
>>> The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in 
>>> Pd.
>>> 
>>> What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar to 
>>> Reaktor’s Blocks that would
>>> allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could motivate 
>>> developers to develop patches
>>> in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised 
>>> patches. 
>>> 
>>> Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in Pd. 
>>> But I wouldn’t want to
>>> spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I could 
>>> do that using some other platform.
>>> 
>>> -Matti
>>> 
 On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette > wrote:
 
 You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
 keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
 need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.
 
 cheers
 Miller
 
 On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
> But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can 
> you open a Pd patch distributed as binary?
> 
> I only found this:
> 
> How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 
>  
>  >
> 
> -Matti
> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list 
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Pagano, Patrick]

But as I suspected it sounds like your intention is to sell pd patches back to 
the community?

Have you seen
Monolog X


Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Interactive Media & Education
+1352.226.2016
https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/


On May 7, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Matti Viljamaa 
> wrote:

What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or 
perhaps LibPd?
Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?

The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in Pd.

What I've been envisioning would be to create "modules" for Pd similar to 
Reaktor's Blocks that would
allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could motivate 
developers to develop patches
in a more standardized "blocks" form, rather than as unstandardised patches.

Reason, I've been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in Pd. But 
I wouldn't want to
spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I could do 
that using some other platform.

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette > 
wrote:

You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.

cheers
Miller

On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it's not viewable? Can you 
open a Pd patch distributed as binary?

I only found this:

How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 


-Matti



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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Charles Z Henry]

Yes!  Of course!  One of the economic benefits of open-source software is
that it can reduce development costs.  Every good engineer should know this.

DO pay attention to licensing details.  You do have an obligation to the
license holders and your customers.  This is what makes the playing field
level for companies using open source software in products.

> On May 7, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Pagano, Patrick 
wrote:
>
>> So like you'd use like years and years and years of open source
development for like your own personal gain?
>>
>>
>>
>> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
>> Interactive Media & Education
>> +1352.226.2016
>> https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/
>>
>>
>> On May 7, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Matti Viljamaa  wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve been thinking about the feasibility of leveraging Pd as a
development platform for commercial patches. Sort of like some (e.g.
Twisted Tools) are using Reaktor for developing commercial-grade plug-ins.
>>> But instead of Reaktor I could rather use Pd, because it’s a more open
platform.
>>>
>>> But if the development is for commercial purposes, there would need to
be some sort of mechanism for closing the source. Is this possible or
something worth looking at?
>>>
>>> -Matti
>>> ___
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>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management ->
https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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>
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Miller Puckette]

I don't think there's any way to distribute patches that vanilla Pd can read
and run without making it easy for people to open them.  At some level you'll
have to write code.

cheers
M

On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:36:46PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
> What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or 
> perhaps LibPd?
> Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?
> 
> The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in Pd.
> 
> What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar to 
> Reaktor’s Blocks that would
> allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could motivate 
> developers to develop patches
> in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised patches. 
> 
> Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in Pd. 
> But I wouldn’t want to
> spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I could 
> do that using some other platform.
> 
> -Matti
> 
> > On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> > 
> > You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
> > keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
> > need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.
> > 
> > cheers
> > Miller
> > 
> > On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
> >> But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can 
> >> you open a Pd patch distributed as binary?
> >> 
> >> I only found this:
> >> 
> >> How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
> >> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> -Matti
> >> 
> 

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Matti Viljamaa]

What about using Pd as a C/C++ library and writing the patch that way? Or 
perhaps LibPd?
Would this allow the patch to be compiled as a stand-alone program? Yes?

The easiest would be if there was a way to open a patch in binary form in Pd.

What I’ve been envisioning would be to create “modules” for Pd similar to 
Reaktor’s Blocks that would
allow for a more high-level patching and usage of Pd. And it could motivate 
developers to develop patches
in a more standardized “blocks” form, rather than as unstandardised patches. 

Reason, I’ve been wanting to see modular synthesis properly realised in Pd. But 
I wouldn’t want to
spend effort on developing modules that I cannot profit from, since I could do 
that using some other platform.

-Matti

> On 07 May 2016, at 20:29, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> 
> You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
> keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
> need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.
> 
> cheers
> Miller
> 
> On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
>> But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can you 
>> open a Pd patch distributed as binary?
>> 
>> I only found this:
>> 
>> How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
>> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 
>> 
>> 
>> -Matti
>> 


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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Miller Puckette]

You'd have to modify Pd if you want to be able to run patches and
keep it a secret how the patch works.  I don't think people often feel the
need to do that but it wouldn't be hard to do.

cheers
Miller

On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 08:14:05PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
> But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can you 
> open a Pd patch distributed as binary?
> 
> I only found this:
>  
> 
> How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
> https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 
> 
> 
> -Matti
> 

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Matti Viljamaa]

But how do you close and distribute a Pd patch so it’s not viewable? Can you 
open a Pd patch distributed as binary?

I only found this:
 

How do I compile a Pd-patch to run as a stand-alone application?
https://puredata.info/docs/faq/standalone 


-Matti

> On 07 May 2016, at 19:53, Miller Puckette  wrote:
> 
> In fact Max uses some Pd code inside it.  I released Pd under BSD license
> partly to encourage that possibility.
> 
> Pd is also used as part of game audio engines (I think the first game to use
> it was Spore, perhaps 10 years ago).
> 
> So leverage away.  Your tax money pays my salary (at least, if you live in
> California it does :) so the product is there for you to use as you wish.
> 
> cheers
> Miller
> 
> On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 07:14:49PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
>> I think if Pd was viable for many different users, it would be more 
>> attractive.
>> 
>> Commercial software is sometimes better quality than open source / free. 
>> Which can lend to better tools being developed for the platform since 
>> there’s a commercial incentive.
>> Wonder e.g. why the Max platform is more popular, even if its commercial. 
>> Commerciality isn’t stopping people from using it.
>> 
>> -Matti
>> 
>> On May 7, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Pagano, Patrick > > wrote:
>> 
>>> So like you'd use like years and years and years of open source development 
>>> for like your own personal gain? 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
>>> Interactive Media & Education
>>> +1352.226.2016
>>> https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/ 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 7, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Matti Viljamaa >> > wrote:
>>> 
 I’ve been thinking about the feasibility of leveraging Pd as a development 
 platform for commercial patches. Sort of like some (e.g. Twisted Tools) 
 are using Reaktor for developing commercial-grade plug-ins.
 But instead of Reaktor I could rather use Pd, because it’s a more open 
 platform.
 
 But if the development is for commercial purposes, there would need to be 
 some sort of mechanism for closing the source. Is this possible or 
 something worth looking at?
 
 -Matti
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>> 
> 
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Miller Puckette]

In fact Max uses some Pd code inside it.  I released Pd under BSD license
partly to encourage that possibility.

Pd is also used as part of game audio engines (I think the first game to use
it was Spore, perhaps 10 years ago).

So leverage away.  Your tax money pays my salary (at least, if you live in
California it does :) so the product is there for you to use as you wish.

cheers
Miller

On Sat, May 07, 2016 at 07:14:49PM +0300, Matti Viljamaa wrote:
> I think if Pd was viable for many different users, it would be more 
> attractive.
> 
> Commercial software is sometimes better quality than open source / free. 
> Which can lend to better tools being developed for the platform since there’s 
> a commercial incentive.
> Wonder e.g. why the Max platform is more popular, even if its commercial. 
> Commerciality isn’t stopping people from using it.
> 
> -Matti
> 
> On May 7, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Pagano, Patrick  > wrote:
> 
> > So like you'd use like years and years and years of open source development 
> > for like your own personal gain? 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
> > Interactive Media & Education
> > +1352.226.2016
> > https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/ 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On May 7, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Matti Viljamaa  > > wrote:
> > 
> >> I’ve been thinking about the feasibility of leveraging Pd as a development 
> >> platform for commercial patches. Sort of like some (e.g. Twisted Tools) 
> >> are using Reaktor for developing commercial-grade plug-ins.
> >> But instead of Reaktor I could rather use Pd, because it’s a more open 
> >> platform.
> >> 
> >> But if the development is for commercial purposes, there would need to be 
> >> some sort of mechanism for closing the source. Is this possible or 
> >> something worth looking at?
> >> 
> >> -Matti
> >> ___
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> >> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
> >> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list 
> >> 
> 

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Pagano, Patrick]

I urge you to look at Max then. Pd is plenty attractive as it is now. I have 
never bought or sold a Pd "patch" and never plan on it either.

Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Interactive Media & Education
+1352.226.2016
https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/


On May 7, 2016, at 12:13 PM, Matti Viljamaa 
> wrote:

I think if Pd was viable for many different users, it would be more attractive.

Commercial software is sometimes better quality than open source / free. Which 
can lend to better tools being developed for the platform since there's a 
commercial incentive.
Wonder e.g. why the Max platform is more popular, even if its commercial. 
Commerciality isn't stopping people from using it.

-Matti

On 07 May 2016, at 19:08, Pagano, Patrick 
> wrote:

So like you'd use like years and years and years of open source development for 
like your own personal gain?



Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Interactive Media & Education
+1352.226.2016
https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/


On May 7, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Matti Viljamaa 
> wrote:

I've been thinking about the feasibility of leveraging Pd as a development 
platform for commercial patches. Sort of like some (e.g. Twisted Tools) are 
using Reaktor for developing commercial-grade plug-ins.
But instead of Reaktor I could rather use Pd, because it's a more open platform.

But if the development is for commercial purposes, there would need to be some 
sort of mechanism for closing the source. Is this possible or something worth 
looking at?

-Matti
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Jonathan Wilkes via Pd-list]

Hi Matti,Pd Vanilla has a 3-clause BSD license.  This license allows you to use 
the code in proprietary software and distribute binaries without also 
distributing the corresponding source code.
It also allows you to make changes/improvements to the code without sharing 
them back with the community.
As for external libraries-- it depends on how they are licensed.  Some are 
licensed GPL, which doesn't allow you to do what you're asking.
-Jonathan 

On Saturday, May 7, 2016 11:48 AM, Matti Viljamaa  
wrote:
 

 I’ve been thinking about the feasibility of leveraging Pd as a development 
platform for commercial patches. Sort of like some (e.g. Twisted Tools) are 
using Reaktor for developing commercial-grade plug-ins.
But instead of Reaktor I could rather use Pd, because it’s a more open platform.

But if the development is for commercial purposes, there would need to be some 
sort of mechanism for closing the source. Is this possible or something worth 
looking at?

-Matti
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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Matti Viljamaa]

I think if Pd was viable for many different users, it would be more attractive.

Commercial software is sometimes better quality than open source / free. Which 
can lend to better tools being developed for the platform since there’s a 
commercial incentive.
Wonder e.g. why the Max platform is more popular, even if its commercial. 
Commerciality isn’t stopping people from using it.

-Matti

On May 7, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Pagano, Patrick > wrote:

> So like you'd use like years and years and years of open source development 
> for like your own personal gain? 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
> Interactive Media & Education
> +1352.226.2016
> https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/ 
> 
> 
> On May 7, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Matti Viljamaa  > wrote:
> 
>> I’ve been thinking about the feasibility of leveraging Pd as a development 
>> platform for commercial patches. Sort of like some (e.g. Twisted Tools) are 
>> using Reaktor for developing commercial-grade plug-ins.
>> But instead of Reaktor I could rather use Pd, because it’s a more open 
>> platform.
>> 
>> But if the development is for commercial purposes, there would need to be 
>> some sort of mechanism for closing the source. Is this possible or something 
>> worth looking at?
>> 
>> -Matti
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>> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list 
>> 

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Matti Viljamaa]

I think if Pd was viable for many different users, it would be more attractive.

Commercial software is sometimes better quality than open source / free. Which 
can lend to better tools being developed for the platform since there’s a 
commercial incentive.
Wonder e.g. why the Max platform is more popular, even if its commercial. 
Commerciality isn’t stopping people from using it.

-Matti

On May 7, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Pagano, Patrick > wrote:

> So like you'd use like years and years and years of open source development 
> for like your own personal gain? 
> 
> 
> 
> Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
> Interactive Media & Education
> +1352.226.2016
> https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/ 
> 
> 
> On May 7, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Matti Viljamaa  > wrote:
> 
>> I’ve been thinking about the feasibility of leveraging Pd as a development 
>> platform for commercial patches. Sort of like some (e.g. Twisted Tools) are 
>> using Reaktor for developing commercial-grade plug-ins.
>> But instead of Reaktor I could rather use Pd, because it’s a more open 
>> platform.
>> 
>> But if the development is for commercial purposes, there would need to be 
>> some sort of mechanism for closing the source. Is this possible or something 
>> worth looking at?
>> 
>> -Matti
>> ___
>> Pd-list@lists.iem.at  mailing list
>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> 
>> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list 
>> 

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Re: [PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Pagano, Patrick]

Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Interactive Media & Education
+1352.226.2016
https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/


On May 7, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Pagano, Patrick 
> wrote:

So like you'd use like years and years and years of open source development for 
like your own personal gain?



Patrick Pagano B.S, M.F.A
Interactive Media & Education
+1352.226.2016
https://patrickrpagano.wordpress.com/


On May 7, 2016, at 11:47 AM, Matti Viljamaa 
> wrote:

I've been thinking about the feasibility of leveraging Pd as a development 
platform for commercial patches. Sort of like some (e.g. Twisted Tools) are 
using Reaktor for developing commercial-grade plug-ins.
But instead of Reaktor I could rather use Pd, because it's a more open platform.

But if the development is for commercial purposes, there would need to be some 
sort of mechanism for closing the source. Is this possible or something worth 
looking at?

-Matti
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[PD] Can you close source of Pd patches (for commercial development)?

[Matti Viljamaa]

I’ve been thinking about the feasibility of leveraging Pd as a development 
platform for commercial patches. Sort of like some (e.g. Twisted Tools) are 
using Reaktor for developing commercial-grade plug-ins.
But instead of Reaktor I could rather use Pd, because it’s a more open platform.

But if the development is for commercial purposes, there would need to be some 
sort of mechanism for closing the source. Is this possible or something worth 
looking at?

-Matti
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