Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Tom C wrote: > ***Basically***, the only things that are against the ***strictly > enforced*** rules on e-bay are receiving money for an item and not > delivering it to the buyer, or buying an item and not delivering the funds > to the seller (which in the end deprives the seller of nothing but his time, > and other bidders of a potential purchase... assuming the seller does not > ship until receiving the funds). I'm not advocating this of course. > Tom, as someone who barely scrapes by as ebay with nearly my only source of income, let me say this. (just for the stats, I have 783 feedback points, 99.9% (1 neg from a book dealer in 1999 who only said the book I had wasnt a a real "first" after I left him negative feedback but took the book back. ) But when buyers don't pay or drag their heels the time becomes considerable. I always treat any deliquency as an oversight on their part with cause - gently reminidng them, never threatening, and occasionally I've actually called someone who didnt write at all. Even though there really is no excuse for a buyer not using another's computer or asking a friend to check to see if they won, I don't get on their case about it. The problem is I spend time not just writing them, but having to go through the extensive red tape to get back my final value fee - maybe this has changed as I haven't had to do this recently. It is an emotional strain, as well. Ebay isn't like a garage sale anymore, alas. Though I'm struggling to keep that atmosphere in my auctions. Having a cold seems to make me procrastinate a lot more too.. I have to go write some reminder letters now :) annsan
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Can I quote you on that? -Original Message- From: "Peter J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Nov 10, 2004 9:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time And a very good quote it is too. Such a magnificent quote is just what we expect from such a towering presence such as yourself. Why it leaves me absolutely speechless in the glow of it's simplicity as utter profundity. (I'd say more but even now my fingers grow weary with the very power of the quote I'm commenting on)... Thick enough yet? Cotty wrote: >On 10/11/04, Kenneth Waller, discombobulated, unleashed: > > > >>Hey guys, lets keep the quotes straight, I never said >> >>"The nature of eBay is greedy. It inspires greed in lots of people - both >> buyers and sellers. It's possible to go over the top in both camps. As >> for the ethical implications, you could say that 'sniping' is pretty >>rude." >> >>Kenneth Waller >> >> > >For the record, that quote above is mine. > > > > >Cheers, > Cotty > > >___/\__ >|| (O) | People, Places, Pastiche >||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com >_ > > > > > -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Thanks Frank, I wholeheartedly agree. Don > -Original Message- > From: frank theriault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 10:06 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:05:18 -0600, Don Sanderson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Bob, you apparently missed the fact that I was responding to > > Mishka's comment that as long as you play by the rules you > > aren't an ass or whatever. > > Here's my point. Rose may not have broken any rules (on that play), > but he was still an asshole. > > Rules often indicate only a minimum required behaviour, not a golden > standard. Playing barely within the rules doesn't mean that one is > being moral or is even much above reprehensable. > > Sorry for that long post, but I've long had a pet peeve WRT those that > equate "legal" with "ethical"... > > thanks for listening to this rather long diatribe. > > cheers, > frank > > > -- > "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson >
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
> -Original Message- > From: Mishka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 10:26 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > > > > Sorry if I was misunderstood but I still hold that there is a big > > difference between "following the rules" and being "honorable". > > i suppose, being "honorable" means "following *your* rules"? Nope, not at all, simply means treating others as you would like them to treat you, simple. > > > If you will carefully check MY eBay feedback you will see > > that I at least *try* for the latter > > so do i. but i can afford that since ebay income/expenses are negligible > (compared to my other sources of income/expneses). i can imagine that > that would be different if i had to make a living off ebay. You would forsake trying to be honorable to make a profit? That's a very sad thought, I didn't realise a person had to be able to "afford" being honorable. Perhaps there are some basic cultural differences at work here but I don't understand your last statement at all. Don > > mishka >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
frank theriault wrote: [...] So, what has all this to do with this thread? Well, when a catcher moves up the line to block the plate, it's within the rules for a base runner to "run over him" to get to home. Rose was within the rules of the game. BUT, it was an All Star (exhibition) game. It meant nothing. Even if it was a regular season game, is it worth endangering someone's life, even if it's within the rules? Here's my point. Rose may not have broken any rules (on that play), but he was still an asshole. Rose never DID follow many of the rules, did he. And even today, as much as he wants the accolades and trappings of "fame" all he has is infamy. In my opinion, it served him right. Rules often indicate only a minimum required behaviour, not a golden standard. Playing barely within the rules doesn't mean that one is being moral or is even much above reprehensable. Sorry for that long post, but I've long had a pet peeve WRT those that equate "legal" with "ethical"... thanks for listening to this rather long diatribe. cheers, frank I think you're right, Frank. I'm on your side... keith
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Here, even if it is yours! John Coyle Brisbane, Australia - Original Message - From: "Bob Blakely" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 11:45 AM Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time Same here, unless it's yours... Regards, Bob... From: "Rob Studdert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On 10 Nov 2004 at 18:44, Don Sanderson wrote: None of these are "against the rules", but they would qualify me as a grade A ass! I don't do these things, not because I care a whit about whether I'm breaking rules or not, I don't do them because I like to sleep at night. I use the same philosophy in buying and selling on eBay. ...but if business (or government) plays strictly by the rules (which they do of course ;-) its just business... BTW it's against the law here to park across any pedestrian walk-way or across a driveway.
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
On Nov 11, 2004, at 6:05 AM, J. C. O'Connell wrote: That wouldn't work because then no one would bid at all until the "live auction" kicked in at the end. That's true but only to a certain extent. An NZ-based auction site I use allows auto-extend as an option for the seller. I recently participated in an auction that had this feature and a few bids had been placed well before the close. I guess they were just trying their chances, or nibbling to find out the reserve price. It gets really nasty when two bidders start placing autobids during an extended auction. Overall I think the system works well, but it definitely works in the seller's favour. Cheers, - Dave http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
***Basically***, the only things that are against the ***strictly enforced*** rules on e-bay are receiving money for an item and not delivering it to the buyer, or buying an item and not delivering the funds to the seller (which in the end deprives the seller of nothing but his time, and other bidders of a potential purchase... assuming the seller does not ship until receiving the funds). I'm not advocating this of course. I purchased a $350 guitar on e-bay (OK, so that's not alot, but it buys quite a few bottles of wine) where the seller sold AS-IS, claimed that he was not an expert on musical instruments, and that he lets the photos speak for themselves as to the condition. He promised to answer any questions, and technically did so. The pictures FAR from revealed the true condition of the item. It was a 12-string guitar with a bridge that had popped off and been messily reglued. The photos were taken from such an angle that the defects were not apparent. It can only be played as a 6-string, and can never be repaired to make it what I thought. The seller has a 99+ rating with thousands of 'satisfied' buyers. Only a couple of buyers left similar feedback to mine, that the pictures do not tell the story. His feedback on me was 'read the words AS-IS'. By the rules? Yes. Fair? No. I consider e-bay to be one giant garage sale, unless the item is advertised as brand new, in box, and returnable if not satsfied. and even then... caveat emptor. Tom C.
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:05:18 -0600, Don Sanderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bob, you apparently missed the fact that I was responding to > Mishka's comment that as long as you play by the rules you > aren't an ass or whatever. i seriously doubt that someone can be an "ass" from every POV. e.g. if you help your someone to change a tire or give a jump start, from AAA standpoint, you are denying them their money :) > These examples are aimed more at the sellers who misrepresent > their product, that's against the rules. there is a procedure (although a lengthy and painful one) to deal with those. i had to follow it a couple of times and did recieve the money back. again, this is strictly against the rules. > don't honor claims after the sale, again, that's against the rules, and you don't have to complete the transaction. > jack prices in response to interest, i don't see a problem with that. i don't see this any differently as "bidding up" once you see that your bid is no longer the highest. or, deciding not to bid if you don't receive a reply from the seller. or deciding to increase your bid if the seller responded that he'll give you 10 days of money-back evaluation time. or... in all cases you act on the new information, in self interest. > pull auctions at the last moment, and with this either. i am not saying i like it, but that's within the rules and you either accept it, or shop somewhere else. > etc. this can work both ways :) > Also buyers who make false claims to recieve refunds or discounts, this is against the rules too. you have to be able to substantiate the claim to get a refund (see above about "lengthy and painful process") -- assuming that the seller is not stupid and insured the item and has all the receipts. > or leave negative feedback because their false claims don't get > the result they want, this is a grey area and i am not sure how to deal with this. that's why i usually take feedback with a grain of salt. besides, 100% positive feedback also doesn't mean much. often people don't leave negative feedback because they are afraid of retailiation, and, face it, if your feedback is 1 and mine is 10, i am better off letting you off the hook than getting a negative response from you. i've been there. so far, most of what you mentioned is explicitely prohibited by ebay rules. > *Somehow* they manage to stay just barely inside the rules, > but to me are asses all the same. apart from feedback, which is too losely defined to be truly useful, "staying barely insidethe rules" is like being "a little pregnant". you are either inside or not. your personal moral principles deserve a lot of respect. but you cannot impose them on the rest of the world. unless you start your own auction site :) > Sorry if I was misunderstood but I still hold that there is a big > difference between "following the rules" and being "honorable". i suppose, being "honorable" means "following *your* rules"? > If you will carefully check MY eBay feedback you will see > that I at least *try* for the latter so do i. but i can afford that since ebay income/expenses are negligible (compared to my other sources of income/expneses). i can imagine that that would be different if i had to make a living off ebay. mishka
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:05:18 -0600, Don Sanderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bob, you apparently missed the fact that I was responding to > Mishka's comment that as long as you play by the rules you > aren't an ass or whatever. In 1970, Pete Rose was at the height of his career. "Charlie Hustle" was the personification of the "everyguy": not huge on talent, he got to the top on sheer determination and guts. (BTW, I'm talking baseball here, for those of you who don't know). That year, Rose was in the All Star game for the National League team. In the 12th inning of that game (overtime), Rose rounded third, and came home. A great throw got the ball to catcher Ray Fosse in plenty of time to tag Rose out, and Fosse moved up the line toward third to block home plate, to effect said tag. Rather than slide into home, Rose put his shoulder down, and steamrollered over Fosse, in an attempt to knock the ball loose (the only possible way for Rose to score). It was a horrible collision; Fosse ended up on his back, and couldn't hold onto the ball. Rose scored, the National League won. Although Fosse played again, his career was essentially over - he never really recovered from the blow. So, what has all this to do with this thread? Well, when a catcher moves up the line to block the plate, it's within the rules for a base runner to "run over him" to get to home. Rose was within the rules of the game. BUT, it was an All Star (exhibition) game. It meant nothing. Even if it was a regular season game, is it worth endangering someone's life, even if it's within the rules? Here's my point. Rose may not have broken any rules (on that play), but he was still an asshole. Rules often indicate only a minimum required behaviour, not a golden standard. Playing barely within the rules doesn't mean that one is being moral or is even much above reprehensable. Sorry for that long post, but I've long had a pet peeve WRT those that equate "legal" with "ethical"... thanks for listening to this rather long diatribe. cheers, frank -- "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -Henri Cartier-Bresson
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Bob, you apparently missed the fact that I was responding to Mishka's comment that as long as you play by the rules you aren't an ass or whatever. Mishka's words are copy/pasted here for reference: 1. Ebay has clear and simple rules. You don't have to like them, but that's irrelevant. No one is an "asshole" or whatever, if he plays by the rules. Changing the starting bid is *clearly* allowed by the rules. There's no point in whining. The examples I used are not specific any to particular eBay practices. Nor do they address the practice of "sniping" which I have in several other posts indicated that I approve of, as it seems to me the only cost effective way to bid. They are just real world examples, from my experience, of how a person can be a jerk though "technically" following the rules. (Each of these things has happened to me, or been observed by me, at one time or another.) These examples are aimed more at the sellers who misrepresent their product, don't honor claims after the sale, jack prices in response to interest, pull auctions at the last moment, etc. Also buyers who make false claims to recieve refunds or discounts, or leave negative feedback because their false claims don't get the result they want, or as a "cover" for being a non paying bidder. *Somehow* they manage to stay just barely inside the rules, but to me are asses all the same. Sorry if I was misunderstood but I still hold that there is a big difference between "following the rules" and being "honorable". If you will carefully check MY eBay feedback you will see that I at least *try* for the latter. Don > -Original Message- > From: Bob Blakely [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:44 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > > Exactly what are you denied? Is it information about the other bidder? > Exactly why are you ENTITLED to any information about him? How, > exactly, are > you hurt or inconvenienced? > > If you bid your maximum and it's higher than the "sniper's" bid, > you win. If > you bid your maximum and it's lower than the "sniper's" bid, you weren't > going to get it anyway! That is unless when you see that he bid > higher and > you want to "reevaluate" based on his being willing to pay more which > implies that you want free use of HIS time and research for yourself! > > Regards, > Bob... > > From: "Don Sanderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > If I "play by the rules" I can: > > > > 1.) Play loud obnoxious music and disturb my neighbors > > 7 nights a week, as long as I stop at 10PM. > > Exactly how are you "disturbed" by someone who bids just at > close? Further, > everywhere I've ever been, if you "play loud obnoxious music and > disturb my > neighbors" at ANY time, they can call the police on a disturbing > the peace > call. If they agree, they will issue a warning the first time, > and a ticket > the second time. Go ahead. Try it!. > > > 2.) Park my car in front of someone elses house taking > > up 2 spaces and blocking their front walk. > > Exactly what are you blocked from doing by by someone who bids just at > close? You can bid the maximum amount you are willing to pay at any time, > and there's no guarentee that someone who bids just at close will > win. After > all, the maximum amount they are willing to pay may be less than you! > > > 3.) Refuse to help a neighbor start her lawnmower. > > What "help" were you refused by by someone who bids just at close > that you > believe you are entitled to? > > > 4.) Go into a store and take up hours of the clerks > > time asking questions and then buy my stuff at the store > > across the street. > > Exactly how many of your hours were "taken up" by by someone who > bids just > at close? Did they buy at an auction on another page? > > > 5. thru 1000.) etc, etc. > > 6 thru 1000 are just as irrelevant. >
Re: E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time)
All is true except the that sniping removes the foolishness. Bob Blakely wrote: EBay's goal is to make money. Their stockholders expect them to be running a business and making money. To this end, it's in eBay's interest that: 1.Buyers generally believe that they are paying less than market value and... 2.Sellers generally believe they are receiving better than market value, and... 3."Players" believe they are "winning" and the other(s) are "loosing", and therefore... 4."Players" get wrapped up in the "fun" of the "game". Therefore, foolishness on the part of bidders is to their advantage. "Sniping" removes the foolishness. What do YOU think? Regards, Bob... From: "Caveman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> H just a question, what do you guys think that would happen if e-bay were offering "sniping" services themselves ? i.e. at the moment you want to place a bid, you get a menu asking: a) place the bid now so that everybody can see it b) place the bid now but do not show it to anyone and activate it at the auction's end -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Here's a quote for you: "E-bay is a bourgeois trick". Tom Cakalic - 2004 From: "Peter J. Alling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:22:46 -0500 And a very good quote it is too. Such a magnificent quote is just what we expect from such a towering presence such as yourself. Why it leaves me absolutely speechless in the glow of it's simplicity as utter profundity. (I'd say more but even now my fingers grow weary with the very power of the quote I'm commenting on)... Thick enough yet? Cotty wrote: On 10/11/04, Kenneth Waller, discombobulated, unleashed: Hey guys, lets keep the quotes straight, I never said "The nature of eBay is greedy. It inspires greed in lots of people - both buyers and sellers. It's possible to go over the top in both camps. As for the ethical implications, you could say that 'sniping' is pretty rude." Kenneth Waller For the record, that quote above is mine. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
And a very good quote it is too. Such a magnificent quote is just what we expect from such a towering presence such as yourself. Why it leaves me absolutely speechless in the glow of it's simplicity as utter profundity. (I'd say more but even now my fingers grow weary with the very power of the quote I'm commenting on)... Thick enough yet? Cotty wrote: On 10/11/04, Kenneth Waller, discombobulated, unleashed: Hey guys, lets keep the quotes straight, I never said "The nature of eBay is greedy. It inspires greed in lots of people - both buyers and sellers. It's possible to go over the top in both camps. As for the ethical implications, you could say that 'sniping' is pretty rude." Kenneth Waller For the record, that quote above is mine. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Same here, unless it's yours... Regards, Bob... From: "Rob Studdert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On 10 Nov 2004 at 18:44, Don Sanderson wrote: None of these are "against the rules", but they would qualify me as a grade A ass! I don't do these things, not because I care a whit about whether I'm breaking rules or not, I don't do them because I like to sleep at night. I use the same philosophy in buying and selling on eBay. ...but if business (or government) plays strictly by the rules (which they do of course ;-) its just business... BTW it's against the law here to park across any pedestrian walk-way or across a driveway.
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Exactly what are you denied? Is it information about the other bidder? Exactly why are you ENTITLED to any information about him? How, exactly, are you hurt or inconvenienced? If you bid your maximum and it's higher than the "sniper's" bid, you win. If you bid your maximum and it's lower than the "sniper's" bid, you weren't going to get it anyway! That is unless when you see that he bid higher and you want to "reevaluate" based on his being willing to pay more which implies that you want free use of HIS time and research for yourself! Regards, Bob... From: "Don Sanderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> If I "play by the rules" I can: 1.) Play loud obnoxious music and disturb my neighbors 7 nights a week, as long as I stop at 10PM. Exactly how are you "disturbed" by someone who bids just at close? Further, everywhere I've ever been, if you "play loud obnoxious music and disturb my neighbors" at ANY time, they can call the police on a disturbing the peace call. If they agree, they will issue a warning the first time, and a ticket the second time. Go ahead. Try it!. 2.) Park my car in front of someone elses house taking up 2 spaces and blocking their front walk. Exactly what are you blocked from doing by by someone who bids just at close? You can bid the maximum amount you are willing to pay at any time, and there's no guarentee that someone who bids just at close will win. After all, the maximum amount they are willing to pay may be less than you! 3.) Refuse to help a neighbor start her lawnmower. What "help" were you refused by by someone who bids just at close that you believe you are entitled to? 4.) Go into a store and take up hours of the clerks time asking questions and then buy my stuff at the store across the street. Exactly how many of your hours were "taken up" by by someone who bids just at close? Did they buy at an auction on another page? 5. thru 1000.) etc, etc. 6 thru 1000 are just as irrelevant.
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
1. if you one is a seller(buyer) dealing with the same 10 people every day, i bet he's pretty "considerate" to them as well. that's called "business relationship" and firms tend to spend quite a bit of $ maintaining them. 2. i am wondering how considerate one would have been if he had had a different set of neighbourghs every night (gipsies?) :) that's what ebay is, from a business perspective. basically, it's a "prisoner's dilemma" vs an "iterative prisoner's dilemma". a fascinating topic, but i don't have an idea how to make it relevant to anything pentax best, mishka On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 18:44:10 -0600, Don Sanderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If I "play by the rules" I can: > <...> > None of these are "against the rules", but they would > qualify me as a grade A ass! > I don't do these things, not because I care a whit about > whether I'm breaking rules or not, I don't do them > because I like to sleep at night. > I use the same philosophy in buying and selling on eBay. > > Don
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
On 10 Nov 2004 at 18:44, Don Sanderson wrote: > None of these are "against the rules", but they would > qualify me as a grade A ass! > I don't do these things, not because I care a whit about > whether I'm breaking rules or not, I don't do them > because I like to sleep at night. > I use the same philosophy in buying and selling on eBay. ...but if business (or government) plays strictly by the rules (which they do of course ;-) its just business... BTW it's against the law here to park across any pedestrian walk-way or across a driveway. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications/ Pentax user since 1986, PDMLer since 1998
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
If I "play by the rules" I can: 1.) Play loud obnoxious music and disturb my neighbors 7 nights a week, as long as I stop at 10PM. 2.) Park my car in front of someone elses house taking up 2 spaces and blocking their front walk. 3.) Refuse to help a neighbor start her lawnmower. 4.) Go into a store and take up hours of the clerks time asking questions and then buy my stuff at the store across the street. 5. thru 1000.) etc, etc. None of these are "against the rules", but they would qualify me as a grade A ass! I don't do these things, not because I care a whit about whether I'm breaking rules or not, I don't do them because I like to sleep at night. I use the same philosophy in buying and selling on eBay. Don > -Original Message- > From: Mishka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 6:23 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > > A couple points: > > 1. Ebay has clear and simple rules. You don't have to like them, but > that's irrelevant. > No one is an "asshole" or whatever, if he plays by the rules. Changing > the starting > bid is *clearly* allowed by the rules. There's no point in whining. > Best, > Mishka >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Use "BIN". Then, if he insists on additional charges, point him that it's against the auction policy. That's usually enough to make a seller change his mind *after the fact*. If that doesn't do the trick, you have to either agree to his charges, or contact ebay and don't pay at all. Ebay will be on your side. best, mishka On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:30:08 -0800 (PST), Steve Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > However, the other one that still really bothers me is > when a seller says that anyone paying by PayPal will > have to pay for the additional fees charged by PayPal. > This is against ebay rules, but I still see it every > once in a while. Even more frustrating when you want > to use a "Buy it Now", but you know you can't change > the seller's mind fast enough. If you try, the BIN > will be gone. So, I just don't bother. > > > > > --- "J. C. O'Connell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I have a new ebay story that needs telling because > > it is absolutely incredible and needs to be > > shared. I still cant believe it but > > it is TRUE and may be a good warning to future > > ebay buyers out there. > > > > I saw an ebay item which consisted of a mediocre SLR > > camera and 3 > > decent lenses ( item doesn't really matter, this > > could > > have been anything ). This had reasonable ( but > > certainly not great or > > bargain or "steal" ) opening bid and buy it now > > prices on it but the listing description was not > > completely clear as to > > on the working condition of the items. I kinda > > decided I would buy > > it but only if the seller assured me everything was > > in good working order and no sooner. > > > > So like anyone else, before I did the "Buy it Now" I > > emailed > > the seller and told them I was interested in buying > > them > > but only if the lenses were fully working so I asked > > for a clarification > > of the working condition of the items. > > > > A day later he sends me the anwser saying yes the > > lenses are fully > > working and he is sure I will be happy with them. I > > was satisfied > > with his anwsers so I go to the auction page hoping > > that no one else had > > bid on them or > > had bought them and no one had. BUT, I find he had > > raised the price > > TWICE between > > the time I asked about them and the time he sent me > > the answer. > > Not only does that seem incredible and unethical to > > me, the amazing > > thing is > > he actually still expected me to buy them at a new > > jacked up price > > about 25% more than when I asked for clarification > > on the > > condtion! > > > > Of course I sent him a F.U. letter in return and > > didn't > > really mind not getting them at the original price > > because > > it wasn't really a super deal or anything. But I > > still cant believe > > someone would think of and actually do something > > like that. > > And then to think I would still buy them from him > > after he raised > > the price twice before answering my email is > > absolutely inconceivable to > > me. > > > > To me he is the greatest A-hole seller of all time. > > And I have > > been doing ebay regularly since 1996. Its not so > > much that he > > raised the prices twice between the time I said I > > would buy > > if working OK, it's the fact that he honestly > > believed I would > > still buy them at the newer much higher prices he > > changed to > > after I asked for the condtion clarification! > > > > Comments Please! Has anyone ever heard or seen or > > experienced > > anything like that? Ever? Online or offline? That is > > just truly > > mindblowing to me. > > > > JCO > > > > > > > > > > > > >J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://jcoconnell.com > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > >
Re: E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time)
picking "a" would be equivalent to stating that someone has more money than brains. best, mishka On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:57:00 -0500, Caveman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > H just a question, what do you guys think that would happen if > e-bay were offering "sniping" services themselves ? i.e. at the moment > you want to place a bid, you get a menu asking: > > a) place the bid now so that everybody can see it > > b) place the bid now but do not show it to anyone and activate it at the > auction's end > >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
A couple points: 1. Ebay has clear and simple rules. You don't have to like them, but that's irrelevant. No one is an "asshole" or whatever, if he plays by the rules. Changing the starting bid is *clearly* allowed by the rules. There's no point in whining. 2. Ebay is, in a sense, a marktplace for *information* as well. You often do not know (as buyer and as seller) what the item is really worth. When you place a bid early, you give your opinion on the item cost (to you) for free. When you "snipe" -- you don't. In fact, sniping would have been pointless if everyone could make a single bid, and the amount of that bid were confidential. >From here one can see that a) entering a "bidding war" and b) changing the inititial bid after an email exchange is essentially the same type of behavior. Namely, you change the amount you bid/ask depending on the additional information you receive (emails or someone else's bids) By sending email to the seller, you give him a gift of knowledge that there is some interest in this item. This gets reflected in the price. Since this is before the initial bids are placed, no bidder loses (you don't lose because you *chose* to give this information to the seller -- you didn't have to) By responding to your email the seller gives *you* a similar gift. Now, do you think it would be unfair if you made a bid depending on the response you got? Best, Mishka
RE: E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time)
It would make it easier to snipe. :) I never bid until the last moment. Tom C. From: Caveman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:57:00 -0500 H just a question, what do you guys think that would happen if e-bay were offering "sniping" services themselves ? i.e. at the moment you want to place a bid, you get a menu asking: a) place the bid now so that everybody can see it b) place the bid now but do not show it to anyone and activate it at the auction's end
RE: E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time)
I thought about this for a while... Even though there are a lot of sites/programs that will do this for you, (I use one for all my bidding) I think this would take a lot of the fun out of eBay for the "newbies". Right now the newcomer is blissfully ignorant of such things and has fun and gains needed experience learning the ropes. He may not win much, or pay too much for what he does win, but that's how you learn. I win a lot more auctions now, for far less money. But it's no longer fun, just routine, ALMOST like work. ;-) The fun now comes from the items I win, not from the auction itself. Knowing exactly how eBay auctions work is a sure way to make them a very boring way to buy stuff. The only exception to this is keeping a very close eye on newly listed BIN items, this is fun, challenging and sometimes very lucrative. I've even gone so far as to send a bit more to 2 sellers who listed BIN items WAY too low! One of them even e-mails me once in a while for advice on how to determine what price to list at. Nice feeling. And again, as far as sniping in general goes, if you have a decent rating, like 200 or more, bidding early just tips off the newbies that the item is worth bucks. They figure if an expeienced eBayer will bid a good price for it, it MUST be worth the big bucks! I'm really not greedy, but I'm not out to cost myself money and/or auctions either. Don > -Original Message- > From: Caveman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 1:57 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time) > > > H just a question, what do you guys think that would happen if > e-bay were offering "sniping" services themselves ? i.e. at the moment > you want to place a bid, you get a menu asking: > > a) place the bid now so that everybody can see it > > b) place the bid now but do not show it to anyone and activate it at the > auction's end >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
"Don Sanderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Don't think it's rude at all, just the way eBay works. Not so much the way eBay works as the way human nature works. If everyone did the sensible thing and just bid the maximum amount they were *really* willing to pay, there would be no need for, or advantage to, sniping. But what happens in real life is that someone bids a specific maximum, *hoping* to win the auction for that amount. They when this person is outbid he/she thinks "well, I guess I'm *really* willing to spend a bit more..." and submits a second bid for a higher amount. This can happen several times (especially if there's more than one of these indecisive types involved in the bidding). Sniping prevents these people from ratcheting up the auction price gradually. -- Mark Roberts Photography and writing www.robertstech.com
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
On 10/11/04, Bob Blakely, discombobulated, unleashed: >There! Now I've had my ranting and raving for a month. I feel better. Back on the meds Bob ;-) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time)
> H just a question, what do you guys think that would happen > if e-bay were offering "sniping" services themselves ? i.e. at the > moment you want to place a bid, you get a menu asking: > > a) place the bid now so that everybody can see it > > b) place the bid now but do not show it to anyone and activate it at > the auction's end This is already offered by at least one site! John -- Original Message --- From: Caveman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:57:00 -0500 Subject: E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time) > H just a question, what do you guys think that would happen > if e-bay were offering "sniping" services themselves ? i.e. at the > moment you want to place a bid, you get a menu asking: > > a) place the bid now so that everybody can see it > > b) place the bid now but do not show it to anyone and activate it at > the auction's end --- End of Original Message ---
Re: E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time)
EBay's goal is to make money. Their stockholders expect them to be running a business and making money. To this end, it's in eBay's interest that: 1.Buyers generally believe that they are paying less than market value and... 2.Sellers generally believe they are receiving better than market value, and... 3."Players" believe they are "winning" and the other(s) are "loosing", and therefore... 4."Players" get wrapped up in the "fun" of the "game". Therefore, foolishness on the part of bidders is to their advantage. "Sniping" removes the foolishness. What do YOU think? Regards, Bob... From: "Caveman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> H just a question, what do you guys think that would happen if e-bay were offering "sniping" services themselves ? i.e. at the moment you want to place a bid, you get a menu asking: a) place the bid now so that everybody can see it b) place the bid now but do not show it to anyone and activate it at the auction's end
E-bay sniping (was Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time)
H just a question, what do you guys think that would happen if e-bay were offering "sniping" services themselves ? i.e. at the moment you want to place a bid, you get a menu asking: a) place the bid now so that everybody can see it b) place the bid now but do not show it to anyone and activate it at the auction's end
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
There have been live auctions. One I used would run until there had not been a bid for 2 minutes...Some auctions would run for a 1/2 hour after the published close. John Graves Peter J. Alling wrote: It would end when the last person willing to bid won the auction. That's how live auctions work. Usually the time extended is about 10 seconds but the on line world is "different". There are drawbacks to everything. Shel Belinkoff wrote: Then at what point would the auction actually end? Bids could, in theory, go on indefinitely, certainly for quite a while. Shel From: David Zaninovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ebay could easily "fix" this by extending the end of the auction for 5 minutes after the last bid but they obviously choose not to do that. It could be a seller option, they could even charge for it as it would drive the price up.
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Because ebay "auctions" end on a specified date at a specified time, all bids are really semi-confidential best and final offers to buy a product wherein the final sale price is determined to be a fixed amount above the next highest bid. This is as opposed to a real auction wherein the bidding continues so long as additional bids are received, or an ordinary best and final offer wherein the actual highest offer is the sale price. Those who do not understand this really should not play with ebay. This being said, it is irrelevant when the "best and final" offer is made. Most (if not all) folks who bid at the last minute, like me, do so to avoid the silly "bidding wars" of those who do not understand the true nature of ebay and get themselves caught up in a thrill game thinking they are "winning" something. Listen, just because ebay says that you are "winning" an item or that you "lost" an item doesn't make it so. You are engaged in the process of BUYING an item by sealed bid. Period. You should treat it as such. Now, as to the use of the word "sniping". This is a term most likely invented by folks who didn't get their way in an auction - translation: lost to someone who bid his maximum at the last minute because they (early bidders) either didn't follow ebay advice and bid their maximum from the start, or perhaps they did and still somehow believe they were robbed by someone else who placed a higher value on an item at the last minute. Because they didn't get the item for the price they bid and were surprised by the late bidder, they developed resentment. They blamed the late bidder for bidding at the last minute of the auction, rather than looking to themselves for not bidding their maximum as suggested by ebay, or because they felt gypped out of a deal wherein they might receive the item for less than it was worth. So up came the term "sniping" used as a pejorative by folks who felt it wasn't fair. It's like calling someone you don't like by whatever derogatory name appears convenient. They want to convince you that it isn't *fair", and that you are being "rude" for bidding at the last minute. Listen up! All fair means is that the rules are the same for everybody and that they are enforced the same for everybody. Further, we've all met folks who don't like the rules (in any endeavor), make up their own, insist everyone else must play by their different rules, and then call folks names when they don't play their way in an attempt to enforce their rules. They're narcissistic little children (girlie boys as our new gubernator would say) who can't take their ball home when they don't get their way, so they do what they think is the next best thing. What they call "sniping", I call avoiding the ignorant and their silly presale games. Now, when you hear or read of someone calling you or someone else rude for "sniping", you know the sort of person who's doing the name calling. Early in our history, the "Redcoats" called us by what they meant to be a pejorative - "Yankees". We took the name with pride and are fond of it and are to this day. There! Now I've had my ranting and raving for a month. I feel better. Regards, Bob... From: "Cotty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> On 10/11/04, Shel Belinkoff, discombobulated, unleashed: Why is sniping "rude?" Why is sniping rude... Hmmm. Well, I don't specifically think it is per se, as I do it almost exclusively unless I can't babysit an auction. I think that some might find it rude because if you went to a real life public auction, sniping does not exist. However, it is operating strictly within eBay's rules, so it's fair game and I believe it is so. Some might not. Just playing devil's advocate. Help me out here people. Anyone think sniping is rude ? If so, why?
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Hi, Wednesday, November 10, 2004, 5:05:05 PM, Shel wrote: > Then at what point would the auction actually end? Bids could, in theory, > go on indefinitely, certainly for quite a while. that's how real auctions work. No auctioneer is going to stop the auction while bids are coming in. That's the whole point of auctions. -- Cheers, Bob
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
On 10/11/04, Kenneth Waller, discombobulated, unleashed: >Hey guys, lets keep the quotes straight, I never said > >"The nature of eBay is greedy. It inspires greed in lots of people - both > buyers and sellers. It's possible to go over the top in both camps. As > for the ethical implications, you could say that 'sniping' is pretty >rude." > >Kenneth Waller For the record, that quote above is mine. Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Hey guys, lets keep the quotes straight, I never said "The nature of eBay is greedy. It inspires greed in lots of people - both buyers and sellers. It's possible to go over the top in both camps. As for the ethical implications, you could say that 'sniping' is pretty rude." Kenneth Waller -Original Message- From: Shel Belinkoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Nov 10, 2004 11:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time Why is sniping "rude?" Shel > [Original Message] > From: Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The nature of eBay is greedy. It inspires greed in lots of people - both > buyers and sellers. It's possible to go over the top in both camps. As > for the ethical implications, you could say that 'sniping' is pretty rude. PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Cotty wrote: > Help me out here people. Anyone think sniping is rude ? If so, why? No, not rude at all. If you are going to snipe something, it's obvious that you are certain (even if no bids present) that this item will attract interest - possibly a great deal. Bidding early with your limit is only going to happen if you know for whatever reason you can't be 'there' for the last few seconds of the auction. I often don't bid on items which have been bid up over a few days. I once came across a couple who used to bid each others radio gear up, never making the winning bid on any item. I've yet to e-mail any previous winners on things I'm after from a particular seller, as if it's got to that stage, I'm not going to bid anyway, but all credit to you for the additional research! I tend to restrict expensive items I'm buying to an area I can collect from now. It also means I buy less :-) I think the new television campaign for eBay over here in the UK has attracted more sellers best avoided and more new people will tend to bid up those bits you want up until they learn to snipe for themselves. Malcolm
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
The way to do this is similar to any other auction. Put the item on display for a few days, start the actual auction at a specific time and run it for say 10 minutes. This would put a horrible stress on the system AND on my poor nerves as a seller! Like it better this way. Don > -Original Message- > From: Shel Belinkoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 11:05 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > > Then at what point would the auction actually end? Bids could, in theory, > go on indefinitely, certainly for quite a while. > > Shel > > > > > From: David Zaninovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Ebay could easily "fix" this by extending the end of the auction > > for 5 minutes after the last bid but they obviously choose not to > > do that. It could be a seller option, they could even charge for > > it as it would drive the price up. > >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
It would end when the last person willing to bid won the auction. That's how live auctions work. Usually the time extended is about 10 seconds but the on line world is "different". There are drawbacks to everything. Shel Belinkoff wrote: Then at what point would the auction actually end? Bids could, in theory, go on indefinitely, certainly for quite a while. Shel From: David Zaninovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ebay could easily "fix" this by extending the end of the auction for 5 minutes after the last bid but they obviously choose not to do that. It could be a seller option, they could even charge for it as it would drive the price up. -- I can understand why mankind hasn't given up war. During a war you get to drive tanks through the sides of buildings and shoot foreigners - two things that are usually frowned on during peacetime. --P.J. O'Rourke
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Don't think it's rude at all, just the way eBay works. In a real auction the high bidder wins when a new bid is not placed in a given amount of time. eBay auctions have a set time limit, not BETWEEN bid time limit. I just look at eBay auctions as advertisements of a product that WIL BE auctioned off in the last couple minutes before the listing ends. Only the very last part of an eBay auction works anything like a regular live auction, the whole rest of it is just an opportunity to get your product in front of an audience. I don't even bother to check my for sale items until the last 1/2 hour or so. I've had items putt along at a couple dollars and then go to 100+ in the last few seconds. I LIKE snipers, they're aggressive and know what they want, like "real" auction bidders. ;-) Don > -Original Message- > From: Cotty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 10:35 AM > To: pentax list > Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > > On 10/11/04, Shel Belinkoff, discombobulated, unleashed: > > >Why is sniping "rude?" > > Why is sniping rude... Hmmm. Well, I don't specifically think it is per > se, as I do it almost exclusively unless I can't babysit an auction. > > I think that some might find it rude because if you went to a real life > public auction, sniping does not exist. However, it is operating strictly > within eBay's rules, so it's fair game and I believe it is so. Some might > not. Just playing devil's advocate. > > Help me out here people. Anyone think sniping is rude ? If so, why? > > > Cheers, > Cotty > > > ___/\__ > || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche > ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com > _ > >
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Newbie! D > -Original Message- > From: Cotty [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 9:08 AM > To: pentax list > Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > > On 10/11/04, Don Sanderson, discombobulated, unleashed: > > >The other is an auction I won for an LX body for $289.00. > >The response from the seller was: Sorry, I meant to end this > >auction early, I won't sell it for that price. I tried to get > >eBay to intervene but she told them the reason for her delay > >was that her computer was down and she couldn't pull the item > >early and she got away with it! > >Like there isn't another computer on the planet she could have > >used to pull the item! > >This one still steams me when I think about it. Another week of > >watching an item for nothing! > > > >Most sellers are OK, but there definitely are some major > >A-Holes too! > > Don, what was her feedback like? > > > > > Cheers, > Cotty > > > ___/\__ > || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche > ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com > _ > >
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
That wouldn't work because then no one would bid at all until the "live auction" kicked in at the end. I think ebay already has "live" type auctions if I am not mistaken... JCO -Original Message- From: David Zaninovic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 11:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time Ebay could easily "fix" this by extending the end of the auction for 5 minutes after the last bid but they obviously choose not to do that. It could be a seller option, they could even charge for it as it would drive the price up. - Original Message - From: "Cotty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "pentax list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 11:34 AM Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > On 10/11/04, Shel Belinkoff, discombobulated, unleashed: > > >Why is sniping "rude?" > > Why is sniping rude... Hmmm. Well, I don't specifically think it is > per se, as I do it almost exclusively unless I can't babysit an > auction. > > I think that some might find it rude because if you went to a real > life public auction, sniping does not exist. However, it is operating > strictly within eBay's rules, so it's fair game and I believe it is > so. Some might not. Just playing devil's advocate. > > Help me out here people. Anyone think sniping is rude ? If so, why? > > > Cheers, > Cotty > > > ___/\__ > || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche > ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com > _ > >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Then at what point would the auction actually end? Bids could, in theory, go on indefinitely, certainly for quite a while. Shel > From: David Zaninovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Ebay could easily "fix" this by extending the end of the auction > for 5 minutes after the last bid but they obviously choose not to > do that. It could be a seller option, they could even charge for > it as it would drive the price up.
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Ebay could easily "fix" this by extending the end of the auction for 5 minutes after the last bid but they obviously choose not to do that. It could be a seller option, they could even charge for it as it would drive the price up. - Original Message - From: "Cotty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "pentax list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 11:34 AM Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > On 10/11/04, Shel Belinkoff, discombobulated, unleashed: > > >Why is sniping "rude?" > > Why is sniping rude... Hmmm. Well, I don't specifically think it is per > se, as I do it almost exclusively unless I can't babysit an auction. > > I think that some might find it rude because if you went to a real life > public auction, sniping does not exist. However, it is operating strictly > within eBay's rules, so it's fair game and I believe it is so. Some might > not. Just playing devil's advocate. > > Help me out here people. Anyone think sniping is rude ? If so, why? > > > Cheers, > Cotty > > > ___/\__ > || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche > ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com > _ > >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
NO I DON"T. Not sniping simply encourages someone to outbid yourself, driving the price up. One cannot be sure if, when outbid, the bidder was a dupe of the seller or the seller themselves logged in under a different name. Sniping is smart, and one of the few tactics a buyer has to actually get the item at a price they are willing to pay, if they don't want to lose the item. Sniping is not rude because this is all about money and sales. Same old game as always, seller hopes to sell for the highest, buyer hopes to buy for the lowest. Tom C. From: Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "pentax list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:34:39 + On 10/11/04, Shel Belinkoff, discombobulated, unleashed: >Why is sniping "rude?" Why is sniping rude... Hmmm. Well, I don't specifically think it is per se, as I do it almost exclusively unless I can't babysit an auction. I think that some might find it rude because if you went to a real life public auction, sniping does not exist. However, it is operating strictly within eBay's rules, so it's fair game and I believe it is so. Some might not. Just playing devil's advocate. Help me out here people. Anyone think sniping is rude ? If so, why? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
I don't think its rude. I usually bid my maximum amount just as the auction is about to end. If the auction worked this way, i.e., all bids were secret until the auction ended, revealing the winning bid, it would be more ideal, but then ebay wouldn't make as much money. Frantic buyers getting caught in the emotional one-upmanship of "he cant outbid ME!", are what frequently make the prices go beyond reason. rg Shel Belinkoff wrote: Why is sniping "rude?" Shel [Original Message] From: Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The nature of eBay is greedy. It inspires greed in lots of people - both buyers and sellers. It's possible to go over the top in both camps. As for the ethical implications, you could say that 'sniping' is pretty rude.
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
On 10/11/04, Shel Belinkoff, discombobulated, unleashed: >Why is sniping "rude?" Why is sniping rude... Hmmm. Well, I don't specifically think it is per se, as I do it almost exclusively unless I can't babysit an auction. I think that some might find it rude because if you went to a real life public auction, sniping does not exist. However, it is operating strictly within eBay's rules, so it's fair game and I believe it is so. Some might not. Just playing devil's advocate. Help me out here people. Anyone think sniping is rude ? If so, why? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Why is sniping "rude?" Shel > [Original Message] > From: Kenneth Waller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The nature of eBay is greedy. It inspires greed in lots of people - both > buyers and sellers. It's possible to go over the top in both camps. As > for the ethical implications, you could say that 'sniping' is pretty rude.
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Kenneth Waller wrote: > Seems to me the issue here is with ebay allowing the asking prices/shipping > prices to be changed after the initial post. Yes, but you need a little latitude (maybe a day) for typos. Especially since ebay makes it harder and harder to list stuff. annsan in defense of fair and honest sellers :) > > > -Original Message- > From: "J. C. O'Connell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > After I told him I would buy the items if they > were fully working BUT BEFORE he sent me the > reply stating they were working OK he raised the > starting bid AND buy it now prices TWICE. AND > he change the shipping prices higher too! > There were no bids yet. It is a little known > fact but a seller can change min bid, BIN, and reserve prices up or > down at any time during an auction as long > as there are no bids and at least 12 hours > remaining. > > I still cant believe he honestly still thought > I would buy them after he did that that little trick. That > one is for the record books as the dumbest salesman > of all time. And I KNOW he still thought I would > buy them because for one thing he still replied to > my question and secondly he even sent me some new > pix via email that I didn't even request to help > make the sale! > > JCO > -Original Message- > From: Mishka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 11:11 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > what do you mean by "he raised the price"? did he raise the reserve? > or BIN? > i am not even aware that one could change the conditions of an auction > once a bid is placed. > > best, > mishka > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:20:08 -0500, J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > I have a new ebay story that needs telling because > > it is absolutely incredible and needs to be > > shared. I still cant believe it but > > it is TRUE and may be a good warning to future > > ebay buyers out there. > > > PeoplePC Online > A better way to Internet > http://www.peoplepc.com
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
On 10/11/04, Don Sanderson, discombobulated, unleashed: >The other is an auction I won for an LX body for $289.00. >The response from the seller was: Sorry, I meant to end this >auction early, I won't sell it for that price. I tried to get >eBay to intervene but she told them the reason for her delay >was that her computer was down and she couldn't pull the item >early and she got away with it! >Like there isn't another computer on the planet she could have >used to pull the item! >This one still steams me when I think about it. Another week of >watching an item for nothing! > >Most sellers are OK, but there definitely are some major >A-Holes too! Don, what was her feedback like? Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Don't remember if that was the one, could be. I feel that the "Item no longer available for sale", "Item lost or broken" and "Error in listing" reasons for pulling a listing ought to involve A LOT more work and a monetary ding to the seller. They are used WAY too often for other reasons. I stand by my listings to the end. If *I* screw up then I take it on the chin, I don't expect buyers to suffer for my boo boo's. ;-) Don > -Original Message- > From: Bob Sullivan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 7:05 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > > Don, > Pulling the auction in the last 10 minutes is a frequent trick of > JVinkus in Palos, Illinois. Ebay is a willing accomplice. All traces > of the listing just disappear before your eyes. You're watching it > and the listing disappears then the item disappears from your My Ebay > page. I won't give this seller any business... > Regards, Bob S. > > > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 05:38:08 -0600, Don Sanderson > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That is a crock and I'm sure he won't last too long if > > he keeps treating buyers that way. > > I have a couple of others that I think are just as bad: > > > > One guy canceled an auction with just a few minutes > > left because the price hadn't reached what he wanted it to. > > This left me sitting there, ready to make a bid, having > > watched the item for a week, only to find no item to bid > > on at the last moment. He did this THREE TIMES in a row! > > I finally sent him a polite e-mail explaining how stupid > > this was, his response was to offer to sell me the item > > for TWICE what the original BIN was! DOH! > > > > ... >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Hi Sally! -Original Message- From: Cotty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Nov 10, 2004 4:36 AM To: pentax list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time On 9/11/04, J. C. O'Connell, discombobulated, unleashed: >Comments Please! Has anyone ever heard or seen or experienced >anything like that? Ever? Online or offline? That is just truly >mindblowing to me. It's a sad reflection of the nature of greed, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. In fact you could look at it as a natural extension of exactly what eBay stands for. The seller offers an item, the item becomes 'in demand', the seller takes advantage of that demand by maximising his profit (but also the risk). As a would-be buyer, you did the only thing you could have done, and that was to walk away. You correctly state that the seller was silly to expect you pay more than was originally supposed. The seller took a risk and lost the sale. The nature of eBay is greedy. It inspires greed in lots of people - both buyers and sellers. It's possible to go over the top in both camps. As for the ethical implications, you could say that 'sniping' is pretty rude. It is an extremely mild indicator of man's inhumanity to man. Every time you go into a crowded supermarket, take a look at how many shopping trolleys are left at awkward angles while their oblivious custodians rummage through the shelves, creating blockages in the isles. Then realise that each and every one of those custodians has a car in the car park. Is it any wonder so many are killed on the roads? Exactly what that has to do with dodgy eBay sellers is beyond me, but slap my ass and call me Sally, it seemed worthwhile to include here. >So like anyone else, before I did the "Buy it Now" I emailed >the seller and told them I was interested in buying them >but only if the lenses were fully working so I asked for a clarification >of the working condition of the items. You were being honest and ethical in the above para, but it was a clear case of Too Much Info. Next time you might just write asking if the lenses are working okay? Trust no-one! (On eBay) Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Seems to me the issue here is with ebay allowing the asking prices/shipping prices to be changed after the initial post. -Original Message- From: "J. C. O'Connell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time After I told him I would buy the items if they were fully working BUT BEFORE he sent me the reply stating they were working OK he raised the starting bid AND buy it now prices TWICE. AND he change the shipping prices higher too! There were no bids yet. It is a little known fact but a seller can change min bid, BIN, and reserve prices up or down at any time during an auction as long as there are no bids and at least 12 hours remaining. I still cant believe he honestly still thought I would buy them after he did that that little trick. That one is for the record books as the dumbest salesman of all time. And I KNOW he still thought I would buy them because for one thing he still replied to my question and secondly he even sent me some new pix via email that I didn't even request to help make the sale! JCO -Original Message- From: Mishka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 11:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time what do you mean by "he raised the price"? did he raise the reserve? or BIN? i am not even aware that one could change the conditions of an auction once a bid is placed. best, mishka On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:20:08 -0500, J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a new ebay story that needs telling because > it is absolutely incredible and needs to be > shared. I still cant believe it but > it is TRUE and may be a good warning to future > ebay buyers out there. PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
If he has a low rating it's probably A. If he has a high rating it's probably B. As a seller I always *pretend* it's C. :-( Don > -Original Message- > From: Malcolm Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 6:59 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time > > > Don Sanderson wrote: > > > Most sellers are OK, but there definitely are some major A-Holes too! > > There are some real nice people out there but I have had a *problem* buyer > this week. Here's the story; I sold an item very cheaply with a faulty > display (which I mentioned in HUGE print in the listing). The winning > bidder, who had several bids on it during the week and therefore must have > read the listing many times, thanked me for sending it quickly > but wanted a > refund as the display was faulty!! Having composed and sent him a very > polite e-mail pointing out that the fault he was complaining > about was fully > explained in the listing and referred him back to it to check, he > immediately came back with another fault which wasn't there when it was > posted to him. So, is it: > > A) He's been stupid and didn't read the listing and wants his cash back > > B) It works as well as it did when I sent it and he wanted it for free > > C) It genuinely has got another fault by damage in the post > > I've dealt with it now, but the truth is I will never know for > sure. I know > what I think though > > Malcolm > >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Don, Pulling the auction in the last 10 minutes is a frequent trick of JVinkus in Palos, Illinois. Ebay is a willing accomplice. All traces of the listing just disappear before your eyes. You're watching it and the listing disappears then the item disappears from your My Ebay page. I won't give this seller any business... Regards, Bob S. On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 05:38:08 -0600, Don Sanderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That is a crock and I'm sure he won't last too long if > he keeps treating buyers that way. > I have a couple of others that I think are just as bad: > > One guy canceled an auction with just a few minutes > left because the price hadn't reached what he wanted it to. > This left me sitting there, ready to make a bid, having > watched the item for a week, only to find no item to bid > on at the last moment. He did this THREE TIMES in a row! > I finally sent him a polite e-mail explaining how stupid > this was, his response was to offer to sell me the item > for TWICE what the original BIN was! DOH! > > ...
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Don Sanderson wrote: > Most sellers are OK, but there definitely are some major A-Holes too! There are some real nice people out there but I have had a *problem* buyer this week. Here's the story; I sold an item very cheaply with a faulty display (which I mentioned in HUGE print in the listing). The winning bidder, who had several bids on it during the week and therefore must have read the listing many times, thanked me for sending it quickly but wanted a refund as the display was faulty!! Having composed and sent him a very polite e-mail pointing out that the fault he was complaining about was fully explained in the listing and referred him back to it to check, he immediately came back with another fault which wasn't there when it was posted to him. So, is it: A) He's been stupid and didn't read the listing and wants his cash back B) It works as well as it did when I sent it and he wanted it for free C) It genuinely has got another fault by damage in the post I've dealt with it now, but the truth is I will never know for sure. I know what I think though Malcolm
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Don Sanderson wrote: > If he has a low rating it's probably A. > If he has a high rating it's probably B. > As a seller I always *pretend* it's C. :-( B I agree with your comment on C Malcolm
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
JC, I've had similar experiences over my last 5+ years on eBay. Some people are just ... But right now I'm certain there are people wondering about me. I've got a Fujinon-W 125mm lens listed but no pic. (dpconsult.com) And I've not had time to post it. (Wrecked the wife's car last night, for starters.) Life is just getting in the way. There's 25 people watching & waiting as I've got a decent BIN on it. But alas. I'll try to accomplish that tonight. Sincerely, C. Brendemuehl 'Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.' Ronald Reagan Sent via the WebMail system at mail.safe-t.net
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Mishka wrote: > what do you mean by "he raised the price"? did he raise the reserve? > or BIN? > i am not even aware that one could change the conditions of an auction once > a bid is placed. > > best, > mishka > I dont think a bid was placed, Mishka. ann > > On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:20:08 -0500, J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have a new ebay story that needs telling because > > it is absolutely incredible and needs to be > > shared. I still cant believe it but > > it is TRUE and may be a good warning to future > > ebay buyers out there.
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
After I told him I would buy the items if they were fully working BUT BEFORE he sent me the reply stating they were working OK he raised the starting bid AND buy it now prices TWICE. AND he change the shipping prices higher too! There were no bids yet. It is a little known fact but a seller can change min bid, BIN, and reserve prices up or down at any time during an auction as long as there are no bids and at least 12 hours remaining. I still cant believe he honestly still thought I would buy them after he did that that little trick. That one is for the record books as the dumbest salesman of all time. And I KNOW he still thought I would buy them because for one thing he still replied to my question and secondly he even sent me some new pix via email that I didn't even request to help make the sale! JCO -Original Message- From: Mishka [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 11:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time what do you mean by "he raised the price"? did he raise the reserve? or BIN? i am not even aware that one could change the conditions of an auction once a bid is placed. best, mishka On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:20:08 -0500, J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a new ebay story that needs telling because > it is absolutely incredible and needs to be > shared. I still cant believe it but > it is TRUE and may be a good warning to future > ebay buyers out there.
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
what do you mean by "he raised the price"? did he raise the reserve? or BIN? i am not even aware that one could change the conditions of an auction once a bid is placed. best, mishka On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:20:08 -0500, J. C. O'Connell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a new ebay story that needs telling because > it is absolutely incredible and needs to be > shared. I still cant believe it but > it is TRUE and may be a good warning to future > ebay buyers out there.
RE: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Its not so much that he was rude or unethical, it's the very funny fact that he actually believed I would still buy from him after he jacked up the price TWICE. I forgot to mention, he even sent me new some mediocre pictures via email to "close the deal"! To me, that is so incredibly stupid that I am laughing my ass off thinking about. I sent him another email saying that I got something much more valuable than a few old lenses, I got a story to tell for years! Like MASTERCARD SAYS : 3 used lenses on ebay $199, Incredibly Stupid Salesman - PRICELESS! JCO === From: Steve Pearson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 10:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time Hey there, I have not had that happen to me yet. It seems incredibly rude and unethical. Too bad you can't leave him negative feedback. However, the other one that still really bothers me is when a seller says that anyone paying by PayPal will have to pay for the additional fees charged by PayPal. This is against ebay rules, but I still see it every once in a while. Even more frustrating when you want to use a "Buy it Now", but you know you can't change the seller's mind fast enough. If you try, the BIN will be gone. So, I just don't bother. --- "J. C. O'Connell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a new ebay story that needs telling because > it is absolutely incredible and needs to be > shared. I still cant believe it but > it is TRUE and may be a good warning to future > ebay buyers out there. > > I saw an ebay item which consisted of a mediocre SLR > camera and 3 > decent lenses ( item doesn't really matter, this > could > have been anything ). This had reasonable ( but > certainly not great or > bargain or "steal" ) opening bid and buy it now > prices on it but the listing description was not > completely clear as to > on the working condition of the items. I kinda > decided I would buy > it but only if the seller assured me everything was > in good working order and no sooner. > > So like anyone else, before I did the "Buy it Now" I > emailed > the seller and told them I was interested in buying > them > but only if the lenses were fully working so I asked > for a clarification > of the working condition of the items. > > A day later he sends me the anwser saying yes the > lenses are fully > working and he is sure I will be happy with them. I > was satisfied > with his anwsers so I go to the auction page hoping > that no one else had > bid on them or > had bought them and no one had. BUT, I find he had > raised the price > TWICE between > the time I asked about them and the time he sent me > the answer. > Not only does that seem incredible and unethical to > me, the amazing > thing is > he actually still expected me to buy them at a new > jacked up price > about 25% more than when I asked for clarification > on the > condtion! > > Of course I sent him a F.U. letter in return and > didn't > really mind not getting them at the original price > because > it wasn't really a super deal or anything. But I > still cant believe > someone would think of and actually do something > like that. > And then to think I would still buy them from him > after he raised > the price twice before answering my email is > absolutely inconceivable to > me. > > To me he is the greatest A-hole seller of all time. > And I have > been doing ebay regularly since 1996. Its not so > much that he > raised the prices twice between the time I said I > would buy > if working OK, it's the fact that he honestly > believed I would > still buy them at the newer much higher prices he > changed to > after I asked for the condtion clarification! > > Comments Please! Has anyone ever heard or seen or > experienced > anything like that? Ever? Online or offline? That is > just truly > mindblowing to me. > > JCO > > > > > >J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://jcoconnell.com > > > > __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Steve Pearson wrote: > Hey there, > > I have not had that happen to me yet. It seems > incredibly rude and unethical. Too bad you can't > leave him negative feedback. Pretty amazingly awful. But there are some nasty buyers out there, too. > However, the other one that still really bothers me is > when a seller says that anyone paying by PayPal will > have to pay for the additional fees charged by PayPal. > This is against ebay rules, but I still see it every > once in a while. Even more frustrating when you want > to use a "Buy it Now", but you know you can't change > the seller's mind fast enough. If you try, the BIN > will be gone. So, I just don't bother. > Yeah, that is against the rules, but it is also very irksome to sellers to have to pay fees to PAYPAL (which ebay owns, remember) for purchases NOT made by the buyer with a credit card. Once you accept credit cards through ebay, all purchases are counted as if they were charges. So ebay not only gets it's perpetually inflated percentage of our sales, but they get the paypal money, too. Then there are buyers who use paypal for a $5.00 item. Tain't fair for sellers, either. I did find my sales increased when I started accepting the credit card payments through paypal. But I think PAYPAL ought to give ebay sellers, especially on the low end, a break on the fees. ann > > --- "J. C. O'Connell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I have a new ebay story that needs telling because > > it is absolutely incredible and needs to be > > shared. I still cant believe it but > > it is TRUE and may be a good warning to future > > ebay buyers out there. > > > > I saw an ebay item which consisted of a mediocre SLR > > camera and 3 > > decent lenses ( item doesn't really matter, this > > could > > have been anything ). This had reasonable ( but > > certainly not great or > > bargain or "steal" ) opening bid and buy it now > > prices on it but the listing description was not > > completely clear as to > > on the working condition of the items. I kinda > > decided I would buy > > it but only if the seller assured me everything was > > in good working order and no sooner. > > > > So like anyone else, before I did the "Buy it Now" I > > emailed > > the seller and told them I was interested in buying > > them > > but only if the lenses were fully working so I asked > > for a clarification > > of the working condition of the items. > > > > A day later he sends me the anwser saying yes the > > lenses are fully > > working and he is sure I will be happy with them. I > > was satisfied > > with his anwsers so I go to the auction page hoping > > that no one else had > > bid on them or > > had bought them and no one had. BUT, I find he had > > raised the price > > TWICE between > > the time I asked about them and the time he sent me > > the answer. > > Not only does that seem incredible and unethical to > > me, the amazing > > thing is > > he actually still expected me to buy them at a new > > jacked up price > > about 25% more than when I asked for clarification > > on the > > condtion! > > > > Of course I sent him a F.U. letter in return and > > didn't > > really mind not getting them at the original price > > because > > it wasn't really a super deal or anything. But I > > still cant believe > > someone would think of and actually do something > > like that. > > And then to think I would still buy them from him > > after he raised > > the price twice before answering my email is > > absolutely inconceivable to > > me. > > > > To me he is the greatest A-hole seller of all time. > > And I have > > been doing ebay regularly since 1996. Its not so > > much that he > > raised the prices twice between the time I said I > > would buy > > if working OK, it's the fact that he honestly > > believed I would > > still buy them at the newer much higher prices he > > changed to > > after I asked for the condtion clarification! > > > > Comments Please! Has anyone ever heard or seen or > > experienced > > anything like that? Ever? Online or offline? That is > > just truly > > mindblowing to me. > > > > JCO > > > > > > > > > > > > >J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://jcoconnell.com > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com >
Re: Worst Ebay Seller of all time
Hey there, I have not had that happen to me yet. It seems incredibly rude and unethical. Too bad you can't leave him negative feedback. However, the other one that still really bothers me is when a seller says that anyone paying by PayPal will have to pay for the additional fees charged by PayPal. This is against ebay rules, but I still see it every once in a while. Even more frustrating when you want to use a "Buy it Now", but you know you can't change the seller's mind fast enough. If you try, the BIN will be gone. So, I just don't bother. --- "J. C. O'Connell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have a new ebay story that needs telling because > it is absolutely incredible and needs to be > shared. I still cant believe it but > it is TRUE and may be a good warning to future > ebay buyers out there. > > I saw an ebay item which consisted of a mediocre SLR > camera and 3 > decent lenses ( item doesn't really matter, this > could > have been anything ). This had reasonable ( but > certainly not great or > bargain or "steal" ) opening bid and buy it now > prices on it but the listing description was not > completely clear as to > on the working condition of the items. I kinda > decided I would buy > it but only if the seller assured me everything was > in good working order and no sooner. > > So like anyone else, before I did the "Buy it Now" I > emailed > the seller and told them I was interested in buying > them > but only if the lenses were fully working so I asked > for a clarification > of the working condition of the items. > > A day later he sends me the anwser saying yes the > lenses are fully > working and he is sure I will be happy with them. I > was satisfied > with his anwsers so I go to the auction page hoping > that no one else had > bid on them or > had bought them and no one had. BUT, I find he had > raised the price > TWICE between > the time I asked about them and the time he sent me > the answer. > Not only does that seem incredible and unethical to > me, the amazing > thing is > he actually still expected me to buy them at a new > jacked up price > about 25% more than when I asked for clarification > on the > condtion! > > Of course I sent him a F.U. letter in return and > didn't > really mind not getting them at the original price > because > it wasn't really a super deal or anything. But I > still cant believe > someone would think of and actually do something > like that. > And then to think I would still buy them from him > after he raised > the price twice before answering my email is > absolutely inconceivable to > me. > > To me he is the greatest A-hole seller of all time. > And I have > been doing ebay regularly since 1996. Its not so > much that he > raised the prices twice between the time I said I > would buy > if working OK, it's the fact that he honestly > believed I would > still buy them at the newer much higher prices he > changed to > after I asked for the condtion clarification! > > Comments Please! Has anyone ever heard or seen or > experienced > anything like that? Ever? Online or offline? That is > just truly > mindblowing to me. > > JCO > > > > > >J.C. O'Connell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://jcoconnell.com > > > > __ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
