Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 46

[Jerry LR Chandler]

I was referring to papers in the computer science literature, as well as papers 
from philosophers, from Portugal, Italy and Finland.
These papers draw on abductive reasoning as well as classification techniques.  
Of Brazilians are also contributing.

The quality of the works from the University of Indiana speak for themselves.

Cheers
Jerry




> On Sep 14, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt  
> wrote:
> 
> Jerry, List:
> 
> I am curious, could you please identify a few members of the "new generation 
> of CSP scholars emerging in Europe" that you have in mind?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
> Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian
> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt 
>  - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt 
> 
> On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 4:44 PM Jerry LR Chandler 
> mailto:jerry_lr_chand...@icloud.com>> wrote:
> List, Edwina:
> 
> The disconnect is not complete.
> The signs for firstness, secondness, etc are preserved.
> 
> Was it Hegel who asserted: "Ignorance is not innocence.”?
> 
> A new generation of CSP scholars emerging in Europe offers promise.
> 
> Cheers
> Jerry
> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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[PEIRCE-L] Peirce's Belief in God (was A comment)

[Jon Alan Schmidt]

John, Edwina, List:

JAS: Why not simply admit disagreement with Peirce's explicitly stated
belief that God as traditionally defined is the real, personal, and
transcendent creator of the universe?


JFS: I have not seen any such definition in Peirce's writings. Please show
(1) Peirce's exact definition and (2) his statement that he believes it.

ET: I don't think that Peirce said that section that I have underlined. I
don't know what 'traditionally defined' means.


Again, I have provided *numerous *exact quotations from *various *writings
by Peirce over the last several days. I will provide a few of them one more
time, which should settle the matter for anyone who is genuinely interested
in knowing *what Peirce believed* (
https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/arc/peirce-l/2021-09/msg00146.html).

In the penultimate paragraph of "The Law of Mind," he explicitly states
that his synechism *requires *accepting the doctrine of a *personal *God,
whom we directly perceive and with whom we are in personal communication.
He also offers an explanation for why so many people nevertheless reject
this doctrine.

CSP: A difficulty which confronts the synechistic philosophy is this. In
considering personality, that philosophy is forced to accept the doctrine
of a personal God; but in considering communication, it cannot but admit
that if there is a personal God, we must have a direct perception of that
person and indeed be in personal communication with him. Now, if that be
the case, the question arises how it is possible that the existence of this
being should ever have been doubted by anybody. The only answer that I can
at present make is that facts that stand before our face and eyes and stare
us in the face are far from being, in all cases, the ones most easily
discerned. That has been remarked from time immemorial. (CP 6.162, EP
1:332-333, 1892)


In a manuscript entitled "Answers to Questions Concerning My Belief in
God," Peirce carefully distinguishes existence from reality and explicitly
affirms his own belief in the *reality *of God--i.e., that God possesses
certain characters regardless of what anyone thinks about God--as well as
his opinion that just about everyone believes this, whether they
acknowledge it or not.

CSP: I will also take the liberty of substituting "reality" for
"existence." This is perhaps overscrupulosity; but I myself always use *exist
*in its strict philosophical sense of "react with the other like things in
the environment." Of course, in that sense, it would be fetichism to say
that God "exists." The word "reality," on the contrary, is used in ordinary
parlance in its correct philosophical sense. ... I define the *real *as
that which holds its characters on such a tenure that it makes not the
slightest difference what any man or men may have *thought* them to be, or
ever will have *thought *them to be, here using thought to include,
imagining, opining, and willing (as long as forcible *means *are not used);
but the real thing's characters will remain absolutely untouched.
Of any kind of figment, this is not true. So, then, the question being
whether I believe in the reality of God, I answer, Yes. I further opine
that pretty nearly everybody more or less believes this, including many of
the scientific men of my generation who are accustomed to think the belief
is entirely unfounded. (CP 6.495-496, c. 1906)


Later in the same manuscript, he explicitly describes prayer as a universal
human instinct and the expression of the soul's consciousness of its
relation to God

CSP: We, one and all of us, have an instinct to pray; and this fact
constitutes an invitation from God to pray. And in fact there is found to
be not only *soulagement *in prayer, but great spiritual good and moral
strength. I do not see why prayer may not be efficacious, or if not the
prayer exactly, the state of mind of which the prayer is nothing more than
the expression, namely the soul's consciousness of its relation to God,
which is nothing more than precisely the pragmatistic meaning of the name
of God; so that, in that sense, prayer is simply calling upon the name of
the Lord. (CP 6.516, c. 1906)


In the very first sentence of "A Neglected Argument for the Reality of
God," Peirce explicitly professes his belief that God, defined as necessary
being, is both real and the creator of the universe.

CSP: The word "God," so "capitalized" (as we Americans say), is *the *definable
proper name, signifying *Ens necessarium*: in my belief Really creator of
all three Universes of Experience. (CP 6.452, EP 2:434, 1908)


In the manuscript drafts for this article, he explicitly confirms that he
is referring to the *traditional *concept of God and spells out exactly
what he means by this--incomprehensible, omniscient, omnipotent,
omnibenevolent, infinite, transcendent, knowable, spirit, and mind.

CSP: By the proper name God, I shall refer to that Being who possesses
those Attributes which I take to be most essential to the traditional
no

Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 46

[Jerry LR Chandler]

List, Edwina:

The disconnect is not complete.
The signs for firstness, secondness, etc are preserved.

Was it Hegel who asserted: "Ignorance is not innocence.”?

A new generation of CSP scholars emerging in Europe offers promise.

Cheers
Jerry



> On Sep 14, 2021, at 8:08 AM, Edwina Taborsky  wrote:
> 
> List
> 
> And as I've previously said - I consider these De Tienne descriptions as 
> absolutely bizarre.
> 
> I don't see that they have a thing to do with the Peircean categories - and 
> frankly, show a huge misunderstanding of those categories.
> 
> Edwina
> 
>  
> 
> On Tue 14/09/21 8:56 AM , g...@gnusystems.ca  sent:
> 
> Continuing our slow read on phaneroscopy, here is the next slide of André De 
> Tienne’s slideshow posted on the Peirce Edition Project (iupui.edu) 
>  site. Slide 46 is 
> a continuation of 45.
> 
> Gary f.
>  
> 
>  
>  
> 
> 
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Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 46

[Edwina Taborsky]

 

Jerry, list

 I certainly agree with you on the work being done, using Peirce, in
computer science and AI - and would add, from Germany, Denmark,
Belgium, Estonia...and of course, the work being done in Biosemiotics
in Europe. 

I would also note that they do not shy away from using the
terminology of their disciplines to show how, despite the different
terms, the conceptual infrastructure is Peircean.

Edwina
 On Tue 14/09/21  7:29 PM , Jerry LR Chandler
jerry_lr_chand...@icloud.com sent:
 I was referring to papers in the computer science literature, as
well as papers from philosophers, from Portugal, Italy and
Finland.These papers draw on abductive reasoning as well as
classification techniques.  Of Brazilians are also contributing.
  The quality of the works from the University of Indiana speak for
themselves.
 Cheers
 Jerry
 On Sep 14, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt  wrote:
 Jerry, List:
 I am curious, could you please identify a few members of the "new
generation of CSP scholars emerging in Europe" that you have in mind?
 Thanks,
 Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USAStructural Engineer, Synechist
Philosopher, Lutheran Christianwww.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt [2]
- twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt [3]
 On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 4:44 PM Jerry LR Chandler <
jerry_lr_chand...@icloud.com [4]> wrote:
 List, Edwina:
 The disconnect is not complete.The signs for firstness, secondness,
etc are preserved.
 Was it Hegel who asserted: "Ignorance is not innocence.”?
 A new generation of CSP scholars emerging in Europe offers promise.
 CheersJerry  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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Re: [PEIRCE-L] A comment

[Edwina Taborsky]

 

 BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;
}John, JAS, list

I have two points about the comment by JAS, But I've outlined them
before and merely restate my view of the Peircean outline.

1] JAS: Why not simply admit disagreement with Peirce's explicitly
stated belief that God as"  traditionally defined is the real,
personal, and transcendent creator of the universe? "

I don't think that Peirce said that section that I have underlined.
I don't know what 'traditionally defined' means.  And, in addition,
this definition has to be contrasted with his many references to the
self-organizing nature of the universe, AND, the analogy of the term
of 'god' with 'mind'.

2] I have a problem with the analytic framework of JAS, where he can
take a hypothesis about belief [ie from Phyllis] about 'psychological
barriers to belief' - and conclude that people DO  believe in the
'traditional definition of god ..etc' even though they say they do
not. It's just that they have a 'psychological barrier' to admitting
or being conscious of their belief!

I find such an assertion - illogical and unscientific.

3] And I do think that there is a huge difference between religion -
which is a psychological and societal system - and a personal belief
in god. I think you can belong to and participate in a religion, in
all its customs and beliefs, for the emotional and communal bonds
that a religion provides - and - be, personally, an atheist!

Edwina
 On Tue 14/09/21  6:13 PM , "sowa @bestweb.net" s...@bestweb.net
sent:
 Edwina, Jon AS, List,   I don't remember all the details of Peirce's
many references to God or religion, but I do remember that he said
that his views were "unconventional", even though he did take
communion at an Episcopal church and he did have a strong spiritual
experience at St. Thomas Church on 5th Ave in New York.

 BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }  
ET:  As for " the real, personal, and transcendent creator of the
universe" - that description, to me, is an anthropomorphic outline
and provides no analysis and moves, I feel, into the psychological.  
I have not seen any passage by Peirce that implies the quoted
statement, and I would also avoid  making Edwina's inference.   JAS:
Why not simply admit disagreement with Peirce's explicitly stated
belief that God as traditionally defined is the real, personal, and
transcendent creator of the universe?That sentence merely states
a "traditional definition", but it does not claim that Peirce
believed that definition was true.   I have not seen any such
definition in Peirce's writings.  Please show (1) Peirce's exact
definition and (2) his statement that he believes it.   JAS: Why keep
insisting that he somehow meant something different from what his own
words plainly state?   Scholars of different traditions argue
endlessly over details of punctuation and little words or endings,
such as the suffix -que in "filioque".  They would never use the
phrase "plainly state" about any religious text.   Please show the
ipsissima verba that exactly state or seem to imply what Peirce
actually believed   And by the way, Peirce made a sharp distinction
between formally defined statements in mathematics and mathematical
logic and informally defined statements in English or other natural
languages.Inferences from mathematical statements that follow
formal rules are acceptable.  But informal inferences from statements
in ordinary language are much less reliable.  Statements in ordinary
language about invisible beings are especially problematical.  Just
ask any theologians in any tradition about their opinions of scholars
in other traditions.And by the way, I consider atheists to be
religious adherents of unconventional traditions.  Einstein, for
example, sometimes said that he was an atheist.  But when he was
asked "Do you believe in God?"  He said "I believe in  the God of
Spinoza."   John  
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Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 45

[sowa @bestweb.net]

Jon AS, List,,
  
 I stated my point very precisely.  Phaneroscopy is the first step that 
derives a representation.  Methodeuric is the next step that evalluates it: 
  
 JFS: The goal of phaneroscopy is to analyze experience and represent the 
results in a diagram or other hypoicon that can be evaluated by methodeutic 
and used for (1) doing something, (2) saying something, or (3) further 
reasoning that might eventually lead to #1 or #2.

   
 JAS:  phaneroscopy according to Peirce ... studies phenomena in 
themselves, not in relation to ends like doing something, saying something, 
or further reasoning.
  
 Yes.  That is exactly what I said.   Normaive sciences, especially 
methodeutic, do the evaluation for whatever purposes might be intended.
  
 CSP: For Phenomenology treats of the universal Qualities of Phenomena in 
their immediate phenomenal character, in themselves as phenomena. It, thus, 
treats of Phenomena in their Firstness.Normative Science treats of the laws 
of the relation of phenomena to ends, that is, it treats of Phenomena in 
their Secondness. (CP 5.122-123, EP 2:197, 1903)
  
 JFS: Slide 45 doesn't say anything about the role of phaneroscopy in 
relating perception to action.

   
 JAS: That is decidedly not the role of phaneroscopy according to Peirce. 
For one thing, it encompasses not only perception, but also imagination. 
For another, his famous statement relating perception to action is an 
expression of his pragmatism and thus falls under methodeutic, not 
phaneroscopy.
  
 This is a discussion group, not a debating group.  I have discussed 
imagination in many notes to P-list and in many of my slides and 
publications that I have cited (with URLs).  We expect participants in 
P-list to support,not attack each other.
  
 As a more appropriate response, I suggest: "That's true, John, but Andre 
was only discussing phaneroscopy.  He was not discussing the stages that 
follow."
  
 In that case, I would have replied "I agree.  But a tutorial on 
phaneroscopy that ignores what follows leaves the reader hanging in 
suspense.   Just a brief comment about what the subsequent stages do would 
clarify the purpose of the first stage."
  

 John


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Re: [PEIRCE-L] A comment

[sowa @bestweb.net]

Edwina, Jon AS, List,
  
 I don't remember all the details of Peirce's many references to God or 
religion, but I do remember that he said that his views were 
"unconventional", even though he did take communion at an Episcopal church 
and he did have a strong spiritual experience at St. Thomas Church on 5th 
Ave in New York.
  

ET:  As for " the real, personal, and transcendent creator of the 
universe" - that description, to me, is an anthropomorphic outline and 
provides no analysis and moves, I feel, into the psychological.
  
 I have not seen any passage by Peirce that implies the quoted statement, 
and I would also avoid  making Edwina's inference.
  
 JAS: Why not simply admit disagreement with Peirce's explicitly stated 
belief that God as traditionally defined is the real, personal, and 
transcendent creator of the universe? 
  
 That sentence merely states a "traditional definition", but it does not 
claim that Peirce believed that definition was true.   I have not seen any 
such definition in Peirce's writings.  Please show (1) Peirce's exact 
definition and (2) his statement that he believes it.
  
 JAS: Why keep insisting that he somehow meant something different from 
what his own words plainly state?
  
 Scholars of different traditions argue endlessly over details of 
punctuation and little words or endings, such as
 the suffix -que in "filioque".  They would never use the phrase "plainly 
state" about any religious text.
  
 Please show the ipsissima verba that exactly state or seem to imply what 
Peirce actually believed
  
 And by the way, Peirce made a sharp distinction between formally defined 
statements in mathematics and mathematical logic and informally defined 
statements in English or other natural languages. 
  
 Inferences from mathematical statements that follow formal rules are 
acceptable.  But informal inferences from statements in ordinary language 
are much less reliable.  Statements in ordinary language about invisible 
beings are especially problematical.  Just ask any theologians in any 
tradition about their opinions of scholars in other traditions. 
  
 And by the way, I consider atheists to be religious adherents of 
unconventional traditions.  Einstein, for example, sometimes said that he 
was an atheist.  But when he was asked "Do you believe in God?"  He said "I 
believe in  the God of Spinoza."
  
 John


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Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 46

[Jon Alan Schmidt]

Jerry, List:

I am curious, could you please identify a few members of the "new
generation of CSP scholars emerging in Europe" that you have in mind?

Thanks,

Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian
www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 4:44 PM Jerry LR Chandler <
jerry_lr_chand...@icloud.com> wrote:

> List, Edwina:
>
> The disconnect is not complete.
> The signs for firstness, secondness, etc are preserved.
>
> Was it Hegel who asserted: "Ignorance is not innocence.”?
>
> A new generation of CSP scholars emerging in Europe offers promise.
>
> Cheers
> Jerry
>
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read Slide 46

[Edwina Taborsky]

 

 BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;
}Jon

Yes! Yes! You got it! Those are the categories!

Many thanks.

Edwina
 On Tue 14/09/21  9:40 AM , Jon Awbrey jawb...@att.net sent:
 Dear Edwina, I got your categories right here: 
 The 1st Rule of the Winoscopy Club is Don't Swallow the Wine! 
 The 2nd Rule of the Winoscopy Club is Don't Swallow the Wine! 
 The 3rd Rule of the Winoscopy Club is Don't Swallow the Wine! 
 Cheers, 
 Jon 
 On 9/14/2021 9:08 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote: 
 >  List 
 >  
 >  And as I've previously said - I consider these De Tienne 
 > descriptions as absolutely bizarre. 
 >  
 >  I don't see that they have a thing to do with the Peircean 
 > categories - and frankly, show a huge misunderstanding of those 
 > categories. 
 >  
 >  Edwina 
 >   On Tue 14/09/21  8:56 AM , g...@gnusystems.ca [1] sent: 
 >  Continuing our slow read on phaneroscopy, here is the next slide
of 
 > André De Tienne’s slideshow posted on the Peirce Edition
Project 
 > (iupui.edu) [1]  site. Slide 46 is a continuation of 45. 
 >  
 >  Gary f. 
 >  
 >  
 > Links: 
 > -- 
 > [1] https://peirce.iupui.edu/publications.html#presentations [2] 
 >  
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[PEIRCE-L] LUW Sept 15 at 4 pm CET : Mathematical Perspectives on Liar Paradoxes

[jean-yves beziau]

Speaker: Josué Antonio Nescolarde Selva
(University of Alicante, Spain)

Paper: Mathematical Perspectives on Liar Paradoxes
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11787-021-00277-2

Organization:
Spanish Society of Logic and Methodology and Philosophy of Science
Presented by its president
Cristina Corredor

Registrate in Advance!
https://www.springer.com/journal/11787/updates/18988758

Jean-Yves Beziau
LUW organizer and President of LUA
https://www.logica-universalis.org/LUAD

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Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read Slide 46

[Jon Awbrey]

Dear Edwina, I got your categories right here:

The 1st Rule of the Winoscopy Club is Don't Swallow the Wine!
The 2nd Rule of the Winoscopy Club is Don't Swallow the Wine!
The 3rd Rule of the Winoscopy Club is Don't Swallow the Wine!

Cheers,

Jon

On 9/14/2021 9:08 AM, Edwina Taborsky wrote:

List

And as I've previously said - I consider these De Tienne
descriptions as absolutely bizarre.

I don't see that they have a thing to do with the Peircean
categories - and frankly, show a huge misunderstanding of those
categories.

Edwina
  On Tue 14/09/21  8:56 AM , g...@gnusystems.ca sent:
Continuing our slow read on phaneroscopy, here is the next slide of
André De Tienne’s slideshow posted on the Peirce Edition Project
(iupui.edu) [1]  site. Slide 46 is a continuation of 45.

Gary f.


Links:
--
[1] https://peirce.iupui.edu/publications.html#presentations

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Re: [PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 46

[Edwina Taborsky]

 

List

And as I've previously said - I consider these De Tienne
descriptions as absolutely bizarre.

I don't see that they have a thing to do with the Peircean
categories - and frankly, show a huge misunderstanding of those
categories. 

Edwina
 On Tue 14/09/21  8:56 AM , g...@gnusystems.ca sent:
Continuing our slow read on phaneroscopy, here is the next slide of
André De Tienne’s slideshow posted on the Peirce Edition Project
(iupui.edu) [1]  site. Slide 46 is a continuation of 45.

Gary f.


Links:
--
[1] https://peirce.iupui.edu/publications.html#presentations
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[PEIRCE-L] André De Tienne: Slow Read slide 46

[gnox]

Continuing our slow read on phaneroscopy, here is the next slide of André De 
Tienne’s slideshow posted on the Peirce Edition Project (iupui.edu) 
  site. Slide 46 is a 
continuation of 45.

Gary f.

 



 

 

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