Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Metaphysics and Nothing (was Peirce's Cosmology)

[Stephen C. Rose]

I think John who wrote of God as the Word can be helpful in relation to
this subject. Peirce was no stranger to the idea that we talk to one within
us. If one surmises that this is  not an uncommon phenomenon and is itself
worth investigation one might also surmise that whoever God is remains a
mystery in part because this entity is identical with reality (aka creation
in toto) unfolding as we speak. The differentiation between Word and
Creator makes it possible to surmise a connection that is verbal but which
does not need to assume that God is infinite or omniscient or all powerful
-- the common assumptions. Rather God would be the force behind the word
that is the object of our efforts to communicate.

Much talk about God is talk about what we don't and can't know for the
simple reason that reality is unfolding, is continuous, and heads
somewhere.
i

Books http://buff.ly/15GfdqU

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt 
wrote:

> Gary, Helmut, List:
>
> I think that questions of religion come *after *the kinds of cosmological
> questions that we have been addressing lately.  Once we establish the
> necessity of God's Reality for the existence of our universe, we can *then
> *start inquiring about the details.  As Peirce wrote in "A Neglected
> Argument" ...
>
> CSP:  The hypothesis of God is a peculiar one, in that it supposes an
> infinitely incomprehensible object, although every hypothesis, as such,
> supposes its object to be truly conceived in the hypothesis. This leaves
> the hypothesis but one way of understanding itself; namely, as vague yet as
> true so far as it is definite, and as continually tending to define itself
> more and more, and without limit  (CP 6.466, EP 2:439)
>
>
> Peirce saw humanity's primary role in God's ongoing creative activity as
> learning more and more about both God and God's creations--i.e., the
> contents of the three Universes of Experience--thus contributing to the 
> *summum
> bonum*, which is the development of Reason (CP 1.615, EP 2:255; 1903).
> However, since God is infinite, it will take us all of eternity to get to
> know Him.
>
> With that in mind, a unique aspect of Christianity is its startling
> affirmation that God Himself entered into Actuality--into our existing
> universe--in the person of Jesus.  His claim to divinity thus offers us a
> significantly more definite concept of God for our consideration; and if he
> truly rose from the dead, as his followers have been asserting for nearly
> 2,000 years, then that claim has been decisively validated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
> Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
>
> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 2:48 PM, Gary Richmond 
> wrote:
>
>> Helmut, List,
>>
>> Thanks for this, Helmut. When I was studying comparative and
>> inter-religion for about a decade a couple of decades ago, I found the
>> distinction 'esoteric' vs 'exoteric' of help, for example, in such a
>> discussion as we're having. Your pointing to what some scholars refer to as
>> the esoteric dimension of religion (Sufism in Islam, Kabbala in Judaism,
>> Meister Eckhard and certain other mystics in Christianity, Zen in Buddhism,
>> etc.) would seem to reflect that distinction.
>>
>> And I believe that you are also quite right to point to the religious
>> practices of probably many people who want something other than a 'vague'
>> concept of God to, as for example, you mentioned, to pray to, namely, a
>> more personal God. There are places where Peirce suggests as much, while in
>> the N.A. and the early cosmological discussions, e.g., that in RLT (1898),
>> it seems to me that he has a somewhat different, at least 
>> *quasi*-scientific--but
>> certainly, logical--goal in mind.
>>
>> In any event, religious tolerance (which in my thinking includes
>> tolerance of agnosticism and atheism) is for me a desideratum, one often
>> lacking in especially our public discourse.
>>
>> But these are just a few idle thoughts thrown off quickly as I am
>> currently dealing with some personal matters which need my full attention.
>> I'll want to think further on these matters over the next few days, but
>> will probably have little time to respond online.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Gary R
>>
>> [image: Gary Richmond]
>>
>> *Gary Richmond*
>> *Philosophy and Critical Thinking*
>> *Communication Studies*
>> *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York*
>> *C 745*
>> *718 482-5690 <718%20482-5690>*
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Helmut Raulien  wrote:
>>
>>> Gary, list,
>>> I see the necessity for leaving the God-concept vague. On the other
>>> hand, people use "God" for somebody to pray to, for religion in the sense
>>> of reconnection with something spiritual and all-encompassing. So they have
>>> to visualize God as non-vague to get a feeling of connection, I 

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Metaphysics and Nothing (was Peirce's Cosmology)

[Edwina Taborsky]

Jon, list: 

Jon wrote: "With that in mind, a unique aspect of Christianity is its startling 
affirmation that God Himself entered into Actuality--"

I don't think that the concept of 'god entering into actuality' is unique to 
Christianity. It's basic to many ancient beliefs [loosely term as 'pagan'] 
about the gods. Zeus, for instance, had quite a few mortal children. Mortals 
born of gods [and that includes virgin births] are found in these Greek-Roman 
tales and other religions {Hinduism, Buddhism]

I'd therefore suggest that this shows the influence of the Greek and Roman 
religions on Christianity - whereas, to my knowledge, one doesn't find such 
influence in Judaism. And, in my view, Islam is a 7th century economic reaction 
to the settling of pastoral nomadic grazing lands by the Roman-Byzantine 
empire...but that's another story. 

I think that the transition from animism, polytheism etc to monotheism is 
something worthy of study - and of course - there is a lot of work in this area.

Edwina
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jon Alan Schmidt 
  To: Gary Richmond ; h.raul...@gmx.de 
  Cc: Peirce-L 
  Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2016 4:22 PM
  Subject: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Metaphysics and Nothing (was Peirce's Cosmology)


  Gary, Helmut, List:


  I think that questions of religion come after the kinds of cosmological 
questions that we have been addressing lately.  Once we establish the necessity 
of God's Reality for the existence of our universe, we can then start inquiring 
about the details.  As Peirce wrote in "A Neglected Argument" ...


CSP:  The hypothesis of God is a peculiar one, in that it supposes an 
infinitely incomprehensible object, although every hypothesis, as such, 
supposes its object to be truly conceived in the hypothesis. This leaves the 
hypothesis but one way of understanding itself; namely, as vague yet as true so 
far as it is definite, and as continually tending to define itself more and 
more, and without limit  (CP 6.466, EP 2:439)


  Peirce saw humanity's primary role in God's ongoing creative activity as 
learning more and more about both God and God's creations--i.e., the contents 
of the three Universes of Experience--thus contributing to the summum bonum, 
which is the development of Reason (CP 1.615, EP 2:255; 1903).  However, since 
God is infinite, it will take us all of eternity to get to know Him.


  With that in mind, a unique aspect of Christianity is its startling 
affirmation that God Himself entered into Actuality--into our existing 
universe--in the person of Jesus.  His claim to divinity thus offers us a 
significantly more definite concept of God for our consideration; and if he 
truly rose from the dead, as his followers have been asserting for nearly 2,000 
years, then that claim has been decisively validated.


  Regards,


  Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
  Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
  www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt


  On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 2:48 PM, Gary Richmond  
wrote:

Helmut, List,



Thanks for this, Helmut. When I was studying comparative and inter-religion 
for about a decade a couple of decades ago, I found the distinction 'esoteric' 
vs 'exoteric' of help, for example, in such a discussion as we're having. Your 
pointing to what some scholars refer to as the esoteric dimension of religion 
(Sufism in Islam, Kabbala in Judaism, Meister Eckhard and certain other mystics 
in Christianity, Zen in Buddhism, etc.) would seem to reflect that distinction.


And I believe that you are also quite right to point to the religious 
practices of probably many people who want something other than a 'vague' 
concept of God to, as for example, you mentioned, to pray to, namely, a more 
personal God. There are places where Peirce suggests as much, while in the N.A. 
and the early cosmological discussions, e.g., that in RLT (1898), it seems to 
me that he has a somewhat different, at least quasi-scientific--but certainly, 
logical--goal in mind.


In any event, religious tolerance (which in my thinking includes tolerance 
of agnosticism and atheism) is for me a desideratum, one often lacking in 
especially our public discourse.


But these are just a few idle thoughts thrown off quickly as I am currently 
dealing with some personal matters which need my full attention. I'll want to 
think further on these matters over the next few days, but will probably have 
little time to respond online.


Best,


Gary R






Gary Richmond
Philosophy and Critical Thinking
Communication Studies
LaGuardia College of the City University of New York
C 745
718 482-5690


On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Helmut Raulien  wrote:

  Gary, list,
  I see the necessity for leaving the God-concept vague. On the other hand, 
people use "God" for somebody to pray to, for religion in the 

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Metaphysics and Nothing (was Peirce's Cosmology)

[Gary Richmond]

Helmut, List,

Thanks for this, Helmut. When I was studying comparative and inter-religion
for about a decade a couple of decades ago, I found the distinction
'esoteric' vs 'exoteric' of help, for example, in such a discussion as
we're having. Your pointing to what some scholars refer to as the esoteric
dimension of religion (Sufism in Islam, Kabbala in Judaism, Meister Eckhard
and certain other mystics in Christianity, Zen in Buddhism, etc.) would
seem to reflect that distinction.

And I believe that you are also quite right to point to the religious
practices of probably many people who want something other than a 'vague'
concept of God to, as for example, you mentioned, to pray to, namely, a
more personal God. There are places where Peirce suggests as much, while in
the N.A. and the early cosmological discussions, e.g., that in RLT (1898),
it seems to me that he has a somewhat different, at least
*quasi*-scientific--but
certainly, logical--goal in mind.

In any event, religious tolerance (which in my thinking includes tolerance
of agnosticism and atheism) is for me a desideratum, one often lacking in
especially our public discourse.

But these are just a few idle thoughts thrown off quickly as I am currently
dealing with some personal matters which need my full attention. I'll want
to think further on these matters over the next few days, but will probably
have little time to respond online.

Best,

Gary R

[image: Gary Richmond]

*Gary Richmond*
*Philosophy and Critical Thinking*
*Communication Studies*
*LaGuardia College of the City University of New York*
*C 745*
*718 482-5690*

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Helmut Raulien  wrote:

> Gary, list,
> I see the necessity for leaving the God-concept vague. On the other hand,
> people use "God" for somebody to pray to, for religion in the sense of
> reconnection with something spiritual and all-encompassing. So they have to
> visualize God as non-vague to get a feeling of connection, I think. So one
> who wishes to pray has to decide, which of the many varieties of God Clark
> wrote about to imagine, eg. impassive or passionate. I guess the solution
> of this dilemma may be to have the confidence, that seeming contradictions
> between the varieties will be "aufgehoben" in a Hegelian dialectic sense
> (raised, abolished) along with further inquiries to come. This means two
> things: It is ok to temporally have a non-vague God-concept, and second the
> dogma, that a religion must be non-exclusive, but open and tolerant to
> other religions. On the other hand there may be religions which are not
> based on synechism and agapism. But I guess, that the mystic parts of quite
> all religions are based on universal concepts that resemble agapism and
> synechism, eg. Sufism, Kabbala, Meister Eckhard, other than the prophetic
> parts of eg. Islam, Judaism, Christianity. So maybe the dogma has to be
> modified: Openness and tolerance towards other religions, except you should
> never trust a prophet, not of the other religions, and neither of yours.
> Best,
> Helmut
>
>
>  29. Oktober 2016 um 01:31 Uhr
>  "Gary Richmond" 
>
> Clark, list,
>
> Clark wrote:
>
>
> The more I think on it the more my own view is that Peirce’s process
> approach to epistemology offers the best solution. Our beliefs are not
> volitional. All we can do is inquire. If we really inquire carefully and
> still believe, well that seems a good basis from which to believe (or
> disbelieve)
>
>
> The N.A. is, as I see it, an invitation to inquire in just this sense,
> while Peirce strongly suggests that such an inquiry *will tend* to lead
> to belief and not its opposite.
>
> As Peirce remarks, the meaning of 'God', being a vernacular word, is
> necessarily vague. If that word is left vague. then it is possible to
> inquire into it such that an *argument* for the reality (not the
> existence, as Jon has repeated emphasized) can be developed. In the N.A.
> Peirce makes clear that by "argument" he means "any process of thought
> reasonably tending to produce a definite belief" (this opposed to its use
> in normative logic where it means the inference from premises to a
> conclusion: an argumentation).
>
> So, musement, he suggests, can give rise to an hypothesis (and, perhaps
> later, a belief) that there is indeed a creator of the three Universes of
> Experience, and that one will then be *struck by the beauty* of this
> hypothesis, and by even the practical usefulness of it, especially in
> guiding ones conduct in conformity to it, that is, supplying an i*deal to
> ones conduct* in life. One will come to love this purely "hypothetical
> God" and act lovingly in accordance with what follows from one's belief
> (including love of ones brothers and sisters).
>
> And, further, it is belief in this God-hypothesis which offers
> "plausibility" and coherence to the notion of three Universes of
> Experience, offering "a thoroughly satisfactory explanation" of 

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Metaphysics and Nothing (was Peirce's Cosmology)

[Jerry Rhee]

Dear Gary, list:

Alternatively, I would recommend examining what Peirce thought of Spinoza
before we go down the road you suggest:



Spinoza’s chief work, the “Ethics”, is an exposition of the idea of the
absolute, with a monistic theory of the correspondence between mind and
matter, and applications to the philosophy of living.  It is an *excessively
abstruse doctrine, much misunderstood*, and too complicated for brief
exposition…



Spinoza is described as a pantheist; he identifies God and Nature, but does
not mean by Nature what is ordinarily meant.  Some sayings of Spinoza are
frequently quoted in literature.  One of these is *omnis determinatio est
negation*, “all specification involves exclusion”; another is that matters
must be considered *sub specie aeternitatis*, “under their essential
aspects.”





Hth,

Jerry Rhee

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 10:55 PM, Gary Richmond 
wrote:

> Jon, Edwina, List,
>
> I think that there are in fact several, perhaps many ways of being
> Christian, from more exoteric, traditional positions (doctrinaire,
> dogmatic, Bible centered, etc.) to those considerably less so, that is,
> more esoteric positions (mystical in, for example, the tradition of
> Eckhard, such as the Cosmic Christ idea as Matthew Fox has elucidated it)
>
> Be that as it may, if we are to have a list discussion on this religious
> topic I would hope that it would center on (1) whether or not Peirce was in
> fact a Christian (my own view is that he was) and, if so, (2) what sort of
> a Christian he was (as I've already commented in another thread, I think
> that he was a non-traditional Christian--he once referred to his views as
> buddheo-Christian, but that, I believe, should be taken in context).
>
> I should add that I do not necessarily think that it would be productive
> to begin such a discussion until at least after we've more or less
> completed the discussion of Peirce's cosmological ideas, which, as Jon
> suggested correctly, I believe, ought precede the discussion of (his)
> religious views. But, in any event, it seems to me important that we more
> or less restrict such a discussion to* Peirce's religious views,* and
> that it would definitely be advantageous to change the Subject line if and
> when we begin such a discussion.
>
> Best,
>
> Gary R
>
> [image: Gary Richmond]
>
> *Gary Richmond*
> *Philosophy and Critical Thinking*
> *Communication Studies*
> *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York*
> *C 745*
> *718 482-5690 <718%20482-5690>*
>
> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt <
> jonalanschm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Edwina, List:
>>
>> If we presuppose that all religions are purely human constructs, then
>> your approach makes perfect sense.  On the other hand, if we take seriously
>> the hypothesis that Jesus is God Himself in human flesh--not a mere "mortal
>> born of gods"--then we will obviously proceed very differently.  My point
>> was that one deductive consequence of that premiss is that Jesus, after
>> predicting that he would rise from the dead, would in fact do so.  If that
>> is what actually happened, then the hypothesis is strongly corroborated; if
>> not, then the hypothesis is definitively falsified.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
>> Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Edwina Taborsky 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jon, list:
>>>
>>> Jon wrote: "With that in mind, a unique aspect of Christianity is its
>>> startling affirmation that God Himself entered into Actuality--"
>>>
>>> I don't think that the concept of 'god entering into actuality' is
>>> unique to Christianity. It's basic to many ancient beliefs [loosely term as
>>> 'pagan'] about the gods. Zeus, for instance, had quite a few mortal
>>> children. Mortals born of gods [and that includes virgin births] are found
>>> in these Greek-Roman tales and other religions {Hinduism, Buddhism]
>>>
>>> I'd therefore suggest that this shows the influence of the Greek and
>>> Roman religions on Christianity - whereas, to my knowledge, one doesn't
>>> find such influence in Judaism. And, in my view, Islam is a 7th
>>> century economic reaction to the settling of pastoral nomadic grazing lands
>>> by the Roman-Byzantine empire...but that's another story.
>>>
>>> I think that the transition from animism, polytheism etc to monotheism
>>> is something worthy of study - and of course - there is a lot of work in
>>> this area.
>>>
>>> Edwina
>>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON
>> PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to
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>> but to l...@list.iupui.edu with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the
>> BODY of the message. More at 

Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Metaphysics and Nothing (was Peirce's Cosmology)

[Gary Richmond]

Jon, Edwina, List,

I think that there are in fact several, perhaps many ways of being
Christian, from more exoteric, traditional positions (doctrinaire,
dogmatic, Bible centered, etc.) to those considerably less so, that is,
more esoteric positions (mystical in, for example, the tradition of
Eckhard, such as the Cosmic Christ idea as Matthew Fox has elucidated it)

Be that as it may, if we are to have a list discussion on this religious
topic I would hope that it would center on (1) whether or not Peirce was in
fact a Christian (my own view is that he was) and, if so, (2) what sort of
a Christian he was (as I've already commented in another thread, I think
that he was a non-traditional Christian--he once referred to his views as
buddheo-Christian, but that, I believe, should be taken in context).

I should add that I do not necessarily think that it would be productive to
begin such a discussion until at least after we've more or less completed
the discussion of Peirce's cosmological ideas, which, as Jon suggested
correctly, I believe, ought precede the discussion of (his) religious
views. But, in any event, it seems to me important that we more or less
restrict such a discussion to* Peirce's religious views,* and that it would
definitely be advantageous to change the Subject line if and when we begin
such a discussion.

Best,

Gary R

[image: Gary Richmond]

*Gary Richmond*
*Philosophy and Critical Thinking*
*Communication Studies*
*LaGuardia College of the City University of New York*
*C 745*
*718 482-5690*

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt 
wrote:

> Edwina, List:
>
> If we presuppose that all religions are purely human constructs, then your
> approach makes perfect sense.  On the other hand, if we take seriously the
> hypothesis that Jesus is God Himself in human flesh--not a mere "mortal
> born of gods"--then we will obviously proceed very differently.  My point
> was that one deductive consequence of that premiss is that Jesus, after
> predicting that he would rise from the dead, would in fact do so.  If that
> is what actually happened, then the hypothesis is strongly corroborated; if
> not, then the hypothesis is definitively falsified.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
> Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
>
> On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Edwina Taborsky 
> wrote:
>
>> Jon, list:
>>
>> Jon wrote: "With that in mind, a unique aspect of Christianity is its
>> startling affirmation that God Himself entered into Actuality--"
>>
>> I don't think that the concept of 'god entering into actuality' is unique
>> to Christianity. It's basic to many ancient beliefs [loosely term as
>> 'pagan'] about the gods. Zeus, for instance, had quite a few mortal
>> children. Mortals born of gods [and that includes virgin births] are found
>> in these Greek-Roman tales and other religions {Hinduism, Buddhism]
>>
>> I'd therefore suggest that this shows the influence of the Greek and
>> Roman religions on Christianity - whereas, to my knowledge, one doesn't
>> find such influence in Judaism. And, in my view, Islam is a 7th
>> century economic reaction to the settling of pastoral nomadic grazing lands
>> by the Roman-Byzantine empire...but that's another story.
>>
>> I think that the transition from animism, polytheism etc to monotheism is
>> something worthy of study - and of course - there is a lot of work in this
>> area.
>>
>> Edwina
>>
>
>
> -
> PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON
> PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to
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> BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>

-
PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L 
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Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Metaphysics and Nothing (was Peirce's Cosmology)

[Jon Alan Schmidt]

Edwina, List:

If we presuppose that all religions are purely human constructs, then your
approach makes perfect sense.  On the other hand, if we take seriously the
hypothesis that Jesus is God Himself in human flesh--not a mere "mortal
born of gods"--then we will obviously proceed very differently.  My point
was that one deductive consequence of that premiss is that Jesus, after
predicting that he would rise from the dead, would in fact do so.  If that
is what actually happened, then the hypothesis is strongly corroborated; if
not, then the hypothesis is definitively falsified.

Regards,

Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt

On Sat, Oct 29, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Edwina Taborsky  wrote:

> Jon, list:
>
> Jon wrote: "With that in mind, a unique aspect of Christianity is its
> startling affirmation that God Himself entered into Actuality--"
>
> I don't think that the concept of 'god entering into actuality' is unique
> to Christianity. It's basic to many ancient beliefs [loosely term as
> 'pagan'] about the gods. Zeus, for instance, had quite a few mortal
> children. Mortals born of gods [and that includes virgin births] are found
> in these Greek-Roman tales and other religions {Hinduism, Buddhism]
>
> I'd therefore suggest that this shows the influence of the Greek and Roman
> religions on Christianity - whereas, to my knowledge, one doesn't find such
> influence in Judaism. And, in my view, Islam is a 7th century economic
> reaction to the settling of pastoral nomadic grazing lands by the
> Roman-Byzantine empire...but that's another story.
>
> I think that the transition from animism, polytheism etc to monotheism is
> something worthy of study - and of course - there is a lot of work in this
> area.
>
> Edwina
>

-
PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L 
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