date:20040621

Absolutely. Anybody saying the war in Chechnya is about goddamn oil would get laughed 
out the fucking door in Russia.

By the way, looking for anything on an event that took place in a remote area in 
Russia most Westerners never heard of in the early 1990s on Lexus-Nexus, in ENGLISH, 
is not that clever. If I were to search on yandex.ru about American immigration policy 
toward Mexicans in the Russian language, I would also get nada. There is a world on 
the other side of the Big River that many monolingual peasant-types do not know 
exists, but is real nevertheless.

---

Right on the money.  A little smokestack lightning from the Detroit brother.


- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Chris Doss's sources


In a message dated 6/20/2004 12:51:51 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, sartesian wrote:

 One mo' time:

 Looking for that thing called specificity,  Mr. Proyect.  And that would be
 a social specificity, analyzing the material forces at work driving the
 contending forces.


The same thing that is driving Putin is driving Bush: control over oil.
You can't get more material than that. And both capitalist politicians use
the same excuse, they are trying to defeat Islamic fundamentalism and
spread democracy.


Comment

I could hardly locate Chechnya on the map, which is why I keep several maps of the 
world within reach. Having followed and studied in a general way the evolution of the 
Russian state, and Soviet history and the breakup of the Soviet Union into more or 
less warring bourgeois  capitalist type states/fiefdom  -  and the political leaders 
in Chechnya are not trying to found a Soviet type antyhing or socialist state, it 
seems to me that the motivation of a Putin and Bush are radically different and not 
reducible to profit motive or oil.

This thing about oil has reach the level of the absurd in my opinion.

Speaking of Chechnya and Iraq...

Forwarded to me by Chechnya pro Robert Ware, with his comments.

The Italian media is full of these reports, crediting British intelligence.  Last week 
the Washington Times reported that Chechens had attacked Americans in Iraq.  For 
many years, Chechens have received more credit and more blame than they deserve.  
Since they have the reputation, any Russian speakers (Uzbeks, Tartars, Kalmyks, 
Cherkess, etc.) fighting with the Islamists are typically identified as Chechens.  
On the other hand, al Qaeda and its affiliates have played a substantial role in 
Chechnya for a decade, and I've been anticipating that, as the jihad dries up in 
Chechnya, they'll look for greener pastures.  Another possibility is that these are 
not ethnic Chechens, but an international mix of fighters who have had experience in 
Chechnya.  We'll have to see if anything develops.

June 20, 2004

Report: Chechen Militants Are in Iraq

The Associated Press ROME -- The Italian military based in southern
Iraq is looking into an intelligence report that 300 Islamic
militants, possibly from Chechnya, may have arrived in the area, the
army chief of staff said Sunday.

The Corriere della Sera newspaper said that in recent days British
intelligence reported that 300 Chechen militants who had trained in
Afghanistan were heading toward Nasiriyah after having broken into
smaller groups.

It's a report that everyone has had. Now we will want to verify
whether this report is followed up by a real explanation on the
ground, Italian army chief of staff General Giulio Fraticelli told
the Italian state television network RAI in Nasiriyah.

About 3,000 Italian troops are based in Nasiriyah, working on
reconstruction.

The report led to concern here that further attacks could be launched
against Italian troops. A truck bombing in November killed 19
Italians in Nasiriyah.

---

Below: Russians are speculating it was done for propaganda purposes or a quid pro quo, 
but not ruling out that it may also have been true.  But first, here's a remark by the 
head of the Chechen OMON (special police) about Arabs departing Chechnya for Iraq:

There's some information, that in the Shatoy direction acts some
bloody Marrocan. In Itum-Kale, they recently noted two Turks and an
Arab... But Arabs gradually have been leaving the borders of Russia -
they depart for Georgia, they depart, by the way, to Iraq.


Anonymous Source in Russian Intelligence Claims Russia Warned U.S. About Iraq's 
Terrorism Plans
Moscow Vedomosti in Russian 18 Jun 04

[Report by Aleksey Nikolskiy and Yekaterina Kudashkina: In Support of Bush--taken 
from html version of source provided by ISP.]

Russian intelligence speaks out in support of Bush

An anonymous source in the Russian special services called the conclusions of the 
American commission on absence of ties between Al-Qa'ida and former Iraqi leader 
Saddam Hussein incomplete.   According to his statement, Hussein himself had planned 
terrorist acts in the USA, and Russian intelligence had even warned American 
intelligence about this.   Experts are guessing about what the Russian side hopes to 
gain in deciding to organize such PR-support of the CIA.

On Wednesday, the independent commission investigating the terrorist act in the 
USA on 11 September 2001 published its preliminary report on the results of its work.  
 Specifically, it states that no ties were established between the Hussein regime and 
the Al-Qa'ida organization.   Meanwhile, before the start of the war in Iraq last 
year, the U.S. Presidential Administration of George Bush, on the contrary, had 
insisted that Hussein had ties with Al-Qa'ida terrorists.   This became one of the 
reasons for attacking Iraq.

And yesterday, a trustworthy source in a Russian special department told the 
Interfax agency that the commission's conclusion does not reflect the full picture of 
events surrounding the start of the war in Iraq.   According to the source, Russian 
special services also have no information at their disposal about ties of the 
overthrown Iraqi president with Al-Qa'ida.   However, according to information 
received by Russian intelligence as early as the beginning of 2002, the Iraqi special 
services themselves were preparing terrorist acts on the territory of the USA, as well 
as in regard to American embassies and military bases.   In the Fall of 2002, this 
information, in verbal and written form, was repeatedly conveyed to our American 
partners, the agency cites the words of its interviewee.   In investigating the 
reasons for emergence of the Iraqi crisis, we must consider all aspects, including the 
direct threat to the USA on the part of the regime of Saddam Hussein.

The FSB [Federal Security Service] Center for Public Relations told Vedomosti that 
it had not disseminated such a statement, while the press bureau of the Foreign 
Intelligence Service refused to comment.   We were also unable to obtain comment in 
the Russian MFA

Re: Mark Jones Still Wrong

2004-06-21 Thread sartesian




What you offer is not the argument Mark Jones 
made. Jones claimed he did know how and when the oil would run out. 
Jones argued that Bush would never invade Iraq.

Jones argued that the future of oilhad 
nothing to do with capital accumulation.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  soula avramidis 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 10:36 
PM
  Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Mark Jones Still 
  Wrong
  
  Mark could not have been wrong. in some sense it amounts to a truism. 
  oil runs out dont know how dont know when.? why it was important is because 
  some argued that the invasion of iraq was not because of oil.. it was entirely 
  and i think entirely is justified because of oil. oil is anywhere between 6 to 
  10 percent of world trade and that is not the important part.. the important 
  part is that it is the principal energy source that underpins capitalist 
  accumulation. and the value relation that allocates resources will do its 
  utmost to draw profits out of oil at the expense of ordinary hard working 
  folk.sartesian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  From 
the WSJ of 16 June 04:OIL MAJORS REPLACE JUST 75% OF RESERVES 
PUMPED, STUDY SAYSLondon-Oil companies replaced only 75% of the 
reserves they pumped duringthe past few years, far below what Securities 
and Exchange Commission filingindicate, a report by Deutsche Bank AG 
says.SEC filings by oil major show companies increased their total 
oil reserves,replacing 116% of what they pumped during 20001-2003. But 
Deutsche Banksays those figures represent historic discoveries that 
companies bookedlater and don't reflect genuinely new finds.The 
report found oil majors increased their reserves at a rate 20% lowerthan 
during the 1990s, partly as a result of a cut of nearly a third 
inexploration budgets, as companies streamlined operations after a 
series ofmeasures. In additions, companiesfocused more on getting out 
the oil thathad already discovered.BP PLEC, meanwhile, said in 
its closely followed annual statistical reportthat world oil reserves, 
as of the end of 2003 are sufficient to supportcurrent global production 
levels of nearly 77 million barrels a day for thenext 41 
years.Hmmm.replacement rates 
declining after draconian cuts in explorationbudgets due to fixed asset 
elimination due to "streamlining" operations dueto mergers... Hey I did 
NOT write the article.
  
  
  Do you Yahoo!?Yahoo! 
  Mail - You care about security. So do we.

Re: Chris Doss's sources

Of course. The Chechen conflict has nothing to do with radical Islam. How silly of me.

Once again, in an apparently futile attempt to make people live in the real world:

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/4546.html Current History October 2000 Through a Distorted Lens: Chechnya and the Western Media By ANATOL LIEVEN ANATOL LIEVEN is a senior associate in the Russia and Eurasia Center of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He covered the 1994-1996 Chechen war as a correspondent for the London Times. His books include Chechnya: Tombstone of Russian Power (New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1998).

The second Chechen war has not brought out the best in the Western media-with the usual exception of the brave and dedicated correspondents who have gone to report on it. All too much of the coverage and analysis has been relentlessly one-sided and relentlessly anti-Russian. Most of the media-and in particular, of course, television-were typically uninterested in the signs of growing crisis, and turned their attention to the region only when the Russians actually invaded. Equally typically, once the war had begun, the media lost themselves in the reporting of the unfolding events, rarely stepping back to analyze the background to the fighting.

As a result, the media missed the great majority of the attacks on and threats to Russia from Chechnya in the two years leading up to the war. Above all, the media overlooked the powerful forces in Chechnya and their international radical Muslim allies, who had publicly committed themselves to a jihad to drive Russia from the entire North Caucasus and establish an Islamic state-whether the peoples of the region wanted it or not.
. Yet the bitterly anti-Western ideology of Khattab, Basayev, and their followers is not a matter of debate, and does not have to be sought out by intrepid journalists venturing to interview these men in the mountains of Chechnya. Their views can be found, on the Internet, in English, on the web site of the international mujahedeen in Afghanistan, at qoqaz.net. This is Basayev himself on the nature of the war (interviewed in early January 2000): "The crucifix is being raised anew and war is being declared against Islam and Muslims; this is proof that this war is like the Crusades, where all of Europe's intelligence capabilities are geared towards providing Russia with information and other support. . . . The Russians and their supporters in the West are fighting us collectively, as Allah has described them: 'And fight the unbelievers collectively as they fight you collectively.'"

CONFRONTING RADICAL ISLAM

The campaign of Khattab, Basayev, and their allies against Russia in 1998 and 1999 was carried out in the name of this radical Islamist ideology, as a reading of their propaganda makes clear. The culmination of this campaign was the invasion of Dagestan in August 1999, with the avowed intention of overthrowing the republic's government and creating a united Islamic republic of Chechnya and Dagestan. This was opposed by the great majority of Dagestanis and would indeed have been a nightmare for that republic. Too many supporters of the Chechens have tried to shrug off this invasion as a minor affair. It was not. Quite apart from the number of casualties that resulted from the invasion itself, Dagestan, with its 34 different nationalities, rival religious groups, and unstable government, is a fragile and delicately poised place. Chechen incursions have the potential to upset this balance and plunge Dagestan into a more impoverished and
hopeless version of Lebanon during its ethnoreligious civil wars in the 1970s and 1980s. It cannot be stressed enough: even if you disapprove of the Russian invasion of 1999, in initially resisting Basayev and Khattab and their plans, Russia was, objectively speaking, serving the interests not just of the region but of the West as well.

The governing council of the new state that the rebels planned to establish-the Islamic Shura (council) of Dagestan-publicly declared (including once again on the Internet, on the Kavkaz-Tsentr web site, www.kavkaz.org) "the necessity of liberating the Islamic territory of Daghestan from age-old occupation by Russian rebels," of introducing shariah (Islamic law) across the republic, and of arresting the Dagestani president "as a traitor to the cause of Muslims." The shura declared Basayev amir (commander) of this jihad. Asked at the time why he had crossed the border, Basayev told Lidove Noviny that, "Many Dagestani political parties and movements are fighting for Dagestan's freedom nowadays. Some of them have asked me to take up the command of the Mujahidin United Armed Forces of Dagestan. This is no Chechen army. It is an international corps comprising Chechens, Dagestanis, and other nationals. . . . We shall always be pleased
to fight the Russians and we shall help anyone, in any way, who seeks freedom."

It is clear why Russia could not have

Re: Mark Jones Still Wrong

2004-06-21 Thread Sabri Oncu

Sartesian:

 Jones claimed he did know how and when the oil would run out.

This is correct! 

People should not put the word in Mark's mouth when he has no means to argue
for himself.

Why cannot people speak for themselves, like Mark was able to do when he was
with us?

Best,

Sabri

Re: Chris Doss's sources

Melvin, I think you hit the nail on the head.

I sometimes get the feeling that what some people want to see is the dismantling of the Russian Federation into a dozen or so quasi-feudal failed "states" with deeply impoverished populations, which is what would happen in at least the North Caucasus if the extremists had their way.

It reminds me nothing so much of deranged Trotskyist (and not only Trotskyist) support for a "free socialist Soviet Moldova" or "immediate independence for Armenia" in the 1980s. Nowadays such calls seem like sick jokes.

That's my final post on the subject, I am using too much bandwidth.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 6/20/2004 12:51:51 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, sartesian wrote: One mo' time: Looking for that thing called specificity, Mr. Proyect. And that would be a social specificity, analyzing the material forces at work driving the contending forces.The same thing that is driving Putin is driving Bush: control over oil.You can't get more material than that. And both capitalist politicians usethe same excuse, they are trying to defeat Islamic fundamentalism andspread democracy.

Comment

I could hardly locate Chechnya on the map, which is why I keep several maps of the world within reach.Having followed and studiedina general way the evolution of the Russian state, and Soviet history and the breakup of the Soviet Union into more or less warring bourgeois capitalist type states/fiefdom- and the political leaders in Chechnyaare not trying to found a Soviet type antyhing or socialist state, it seems to me that the motivation of a Putin and Bush are radically different and not reducible to profit motive or oil.
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OK once more

I said I wasn't going to post on this anymore, but Lieven is so damn good on Chechnya I decided to forward something else. Full article in PDF.

The new conflict in the northeastern Caucasus illustrates one critical difference between Russia and the Western European colonial empires of the past: that they were maritime empires, while Russia's territorial expansion, like that of the United States until the 1890s, was on land. This obvious similarity has been missed by too many Western commentators who prate about Russia's need to "abandon its imperial heritage."
When they were faced with problems akin to that of Chechnya and Daghestan -- as were the British, for example, in Aden in the early 1960s -- the maritime powers in the end pulled out and sailed away home. The Russians cannot do so. The North Caucasian republics are not colonies but constituent parts of the Russian Federation itself. There is no natural barrier between the North Caucasus and the ethnically-Russian provinces of Stavropol and Krasnodar on the steppes to the north. Russia's relationship to the Caucasus is therefore far closer to that of the United States with Central America than it is to the French relationship with Francophone Africa, for example.
In Chechnya, Russia finds itself faced with a modern state's nightmare: a region on its immediate frontier which is simultaneously a chaotic failed state, a haven for banditry and organized crime, a threat to Russian control of adjacent regions, and a base for Islamic terrorist actions in Russia. It is as if Moscow had a mixture of Afghanistan and Sierra Leone for a neighbor. The British empire in India had Afghanistan as a neighbor for 100 years, and during that period tried a whole range of responses to the mixture of banditry, religious extremism, and geopolitical threat emanating from Afghanistan and the border region. These ranged from the bombing of recalcitrant villages to the seizure of hostile leaders by "snatch squads" of elite troops, punitive expeditions and, in the last resort, full-scale invasion. None of them worked for long. Russia's latest, mistaken, and brutal invasion of Chechnya is no more likely to provide a long-term "solution."
One aspect of areas like Chechnya is, however, new. Like the modern Afghans, the Chechens have not sunk into complete impoverishment as a result of their lack of a state and can still finance and supply large-scale military operations, due above all to their ability to operate successfully in the wider worlds of smuggling and organized crime. In this way, Chechnya also recalls the experience of some countries in Africa, which despite the complete collapse of modern institutions have gone on earning sufficient money to support parts of the population and, more important, to fund a number of warlords.
When added to the weakness and corruption of the Russian security forces, this has undermined repeated Russian attempts to bring about Chechen submission by means of economic isolation. Frustration at this failure helped lead Russia in September 1999 once again to make the disastrous decision to invade Chechnya.
The United States faces not wholly dissimilar threats from the growing anarchy of Colombia, though with the crucial differences that Colombia is much further away from U.S. territory and is not yet a base for terrorism against the United States itself, though the threat from criminality is of course all too real. Another difference is that, at least since the defeat of communist insurgency in Central America, the United States is in a considerably stronger position to influence events to its south than is impoverished, demoralized Russia with its neighbors. The Russian invasion therefore is not really a sign of strength. On the contrary, it indicates the bankruptcy of Russia's policy toward the region since the Chechen war of 1994-1996.
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Re: OK once more

I fogot the link. Here it is in HTML.

http://www.google.ru/search?q=cache:6yzMMi9wSTcJ:www.twq.com/winter00/231Lieven.pdf+%22nightmare+in+the+caucasus%22hl=ruie=UTF-8inlang=ru
!
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Iraqi Civilian War Casualties (March 21-July 31, 2003)

2004-06-21 Thread Yoshie Furuhashi

Raed Jarrar, the country director of the first (and maybe only)
door-to-door civilian casualties survey covering the period of March
21-July 31, 2003, published his survey results: Iraqi Civilian War
Casualties. In respect to their sacred memory, I would appreciate it
if you could spend some minutes reading the database file: read their
names, and their personal details, and think about them as human
beings, friends, and relatives -- not mere figures and numbers,
Jarrar asks us (Iraqi Civilian War Casualties).
http://montages.blogspot.com/2004/06/iraqi-civilian-war-casualties-march-21.html
--
Yoshie
* Critical Montages: http://montages.blogspot.com/
* Bring Them Home Now! http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/
* Calendars of Events in Columbus:
http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/calendar.html,
http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php,  http://www.cpanews.org/
* Student International Forum: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/
* Committee for Justice in Palestine: http://www.osudivest.org/
* Al-Awda-Ohio: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio
* Solidarity: http://www.solidarity-us.org/

Re: Chris Doss's sources

2004-06-21 Thread Grant Lee

Chris said:

 Anybody saying the war in Chechnya is about goddamn oil would get laughed
out the fucking door in Russia.

I believe you, but just because an idea is not popular it doesn't make it
untrue. I doubt if many Americans believe that the war in Iraq is about
oil and yet that idea is widespread elsewhere.

In Iraq as in Chechnya --- or in any putative imperial annexation or war of
independence in modern history for that matter --- a wider range of reasons
are/have been/will be floated, such as: (1) the need for the imperial ruling
classes to stimulate domestic demand/production; (2) control of a
country/people to enhance investment and the sale of surplus goods; (3)
control of a country/people to enhance access to raw materials and cheap
labour. And so on.

All of these may be true in relation to any given case and IMO all of them
are more likely than the simplistic blood for oil slogans of anti-imperial
populists. Or the objectives --- freedom and democracy, preventing
terrorism, etc. --- claimed by the imperialists themselves.

IMO, the real issue in such cases --- and one which is more difficult to
resolve amid the crossfires of both bullets and propaganda --- is the extent
to which the local populations, _at_any_particular_point_in_time_, oppose or
support the imperialists. This often has little or nothing to do with the
material sticks  carrots of empire. In other words, false consiousness
can become a material factor. And if, when and where the vast majority of an
imperialised people  _opposes_or_supports _ an empire, the issue of
imperialism evaporates faster than a refined petroleum product.

regards,

Grant.

Re: Chris Doss's sources

You are of course correct.

One small problem with the theory is that the government of Chechnya has full control 
of Chechnya's oil, the sales of which are to go 100% to the republic if and when the 
oil biz ever gets off the ground again, which has pissed many Russian oil businesses 
off.

-Original Message-
From: Grant Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:59:17 +0800
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Chris Doss's sources

 Chris said:

  Anybody saying the war in Chechnya is about goddamn oil would get laughed
 out the fucking door in Russia.

Israeli Agents and the Kurds in Iraq, Iran, and Syria

2004-06-21 Thread Yoshie Furuhashi

Israeli Agents and the Kurds in Iraq, Iran, and Syria:
http://montages.blogspot.com/2004/06/israeli-agents-and-kurds-in-iraq-iran.html
--
Yoshie
* Critical Montages: http://montages.blogspot.com/
* Bring Them Home Now! http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/
* Calendars of Events in Columbus:
http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/calendar.html,
http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php,  http://www.cpanews.org/
* Student International Forum: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/
* Committee for Justice in Palestine: http://www.osudivest.org/
* Al-Awda-Ohio: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio
* Solidarity: http://www.solidarity-us.org/

Re: Chris Doss's sources

Grant:

IMO, the real issue in such cases --- and one which is more difficult to
resolve amid the crossfires of both bullets and propaganda --- is the extent
to which the local populations, _at_any_particular_point_in_time_, oppose or
support the imperialists. This often has little or nothing to do with the
material sticks  carrots of empire. In other words, false consiousness
can become a material factor. And if, when and where the vast majority of an
imperialised people  _opposes_or_supports _ an empire, the issue of
imperialism evaporates faster than a refined petroleum product.

Me:

Re: Public support on the part of the Chechens populace for Russia appears to be very 
complicated (for obvious reasons). As far as I can tell from reading about the region 
and talking to Chechens in Moscow (who of course diverge considerably among 
themselves), there is both dislike of Russia and a belief that support of nationalist 
and/or Islamist radicals is not a viable option (since the interwar years of 
1996-1999, when Chechnya was basically independent, were a disaster). Basayev, after 
all, started the current war, and Maskhadov refused to heed Moscow's ultimatum to 
expel him and Khattab, which is when Russian troops entered the republic. 
Functionally, that means that they will support any government that gives them peace.

The populations surrounding Chechnya (the Avars, Cherkesh, Ingush, Russians, 
Georgians, etc. in the North Caucasus) support Russia overwhelmingly. Again this is 
for obvious reasons: the hostage industry found its victims mostly in Dagestan and 
Ingushetia, for reasons of geography, and the invasion of Dagestan led to several tens 
of thousands of IDPs. (This is why, although Dagestanis took hundreds of thousands of 
Chechen refugees into their own homes in the First Chechen War, Dagestan refused to 
take ANY in the Second War, and Dagstanis volunteered to fight in Chechnya on behalf 
of the federal government.)

It's a lot more complicated than a simple national liberation struggle, now, isn't 
it?

Re: Chris Doss's sources

2004-06-21 Thread Michael Perelman

I only had a few minutes to glance at this thread.  It seems like it is getting close
to nasty again.  Please, do not denounce others on the list.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929

Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu

Re: Chris Doss's sources

2004-06-21 Thread Michael Perelman

He is 93.  Cancer of the intestines.

On Sun, Jun 20, 2004 at 07:43:35PM +0400, Chris Doss  wrote:
 I hope he's OK.

 -Original Message-
 From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 06:43:33 -0700
 Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Chris Doss's sources

  Lou  Chris.  I am leaving now.  Please.  Stop getter personal.  I need to get to
  Pittsburgh to see me father in the hospital.  I don't want to have to worry about 
  the
  list.

  Thanks.

  On Sun, Jun 20, 2004 at 09:19:42AM -0400, Louis Proyect wrote:
   Yesterday, Chris Doss told PEN-L that there was ethnic cleansing in
   Chechnya, including Jews. Since demagogic charges of anti-Semitism has
   surfaced to such an extreme degree in recent years, I was particularly
   interested to see if there was hard evidence of this.

   So, instead of producing articles from respected sources, he cites 2
   experts.

   One is Vladimir Bilenkin, a professional sectarian who has been living
   in the USA during the entire time under question and who helped to
   destroy the original Marxism list run by the Spoons Collective with his
   partner Bob Malecki. If he ever wrote anything worth taking seriously, I
   am not aware of it.

   The other is Sergei Yastrzhembsky, an adviser to Putin. You might as
   well cite Condoleeza Rice on Iraq.

   --
   Marxism list: www.marxmail.org

  --
  Michael Perelman
  Economics Department
  California State University
  Chico, CA 95929

  Tel. 530-898-5321
  E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu

--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929

Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu

Re: Mark Jones Still Wrong

this business about Mark Jones being wrong or right isn't about MJ at all. It's 
because MJ was chosen as a symbol. Some people on pen-l used MJ as a name to hang on 
the assertion that because of long-term natural constraints, we're running out of oil 
now! while others said no we're not -- it's a short-term problem, not for natural 
but for political-economic reasons.
jd

-Original Message- 
From: Sabri Oncu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Mon 6/21/2004 12:28 AM 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Mark Jones Still Wrong



soula avramidis:

 Mark could not have been wrong.

Whether Mark was wrong or right is debatable.

Yet, Mark can neither be right or wrong today.

He is gone for long!

Being an unfaithful thermodynamist by trait, I always had issues with his
thermodynamics and nor had I any interest in this Huppert peak thing but I
loved him.

Not because I agreed with him all the time but because of the side he chose,
which happened to be my side.

Can we please leave him alone with his and his fellows' struggles in
wherever they are? 

Best,

Sabri

Re: Chris Doss's sources

Hey, I'm nice as long as people are nice to me. My vituperance is strictly reactive. :)Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I only had a few minutes to glance at this thread. It seems like it is getting closeto nasty again. Please, do not "denounce" others on the list.--Michael PerelmanEconomics DepartmentCalifornia State UniversityChico, CA 95929Tel. 530-898-5321E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
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Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.

Marxist Fianancial Advice

2004-06-21 Thread Funke Jayson J

Title: Marxist Fianancial Advice

I hope I do not offend anyone with this query, but I cant believe that I am the only one who has wrestled with this problem. I would like to learn how other people on this list deal with the issue of personal finances. Please feel free to reply to me personally if you do not wish to post to the discussion list.

For people on this list fortunate enough to have some personal financial considerations to think about (retirement funds etc), how do you handle planning for your financial future while reconciling those actions with your personal convictions? How do (fortunate?) Marxist living in a capitalist society plan for their own financial welfare? Do folks find socially responsible funds (I mean they still contribute to capitalism, right?) as an answer? Municipal bonds? Money markets? How are any of these better than the other?

I am soon leaving the financial world and will need to make certain financial decisions, and I wrestle with this problem continuously. How do others deal with personal financial issues that conflict with their values?

I would really appreciate any advice, suggestions, or criticisms.

Jayson Funke

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Re: Chris Doss's sources

2004-06-21 Thread Louis Proyect

Chris Doss wrote:
Hey, I'm nice as long as people are nice to me. My vituperance is
strictly reactive. :)
I don't mind the vituperation. I would only object to the number of
times you are posting. I counted 9 posts, all on Chechnya, so far today:
3:58am, 4:15am, 5:39am, 6:01am, 6:30am, 6:46am, 6:54am, 7:02am and
7:25am. Egad.
--
The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org

Wasting water

2004-06-21 Thread Louis Proyect

LA Times, June 21, 2004
THE NATION
Thirsty Las Vegas Eyes a Refuge's Water
Hydrologists worry that tapping aquifer beneath a bighorn sanctuary 
could threaten rare wildlife.

By Bettina Boxall, Times Staff Writer
DESERT NATIONAL WILDLIFE REFUGE, Nev.  Water is not what comes to mind 
in this sun-bleached landscape of crumpled mountains and creosote-coated 
basins. But that's what Las Vegas thinks of when it glances across its 
northern border at this sprawling bighorn sheep refuge, the largest 
federal wildlife sanctuary in the lower 48 states.

The city of water-themed casinos and ever-expanding subdivisions is 
looking here to begin a massive pumping project that would reach deep 
into rural Nevada to tap an ancient aquifer running from western Utah to 
Death Valley National Park in eastern California.

In Nevada's scrappy outback, the plans have prompted comparisons to 
Owens Valley, Los Angeles' infamous eastern Sierra water grab of a 
century ago.

Federal hydrologists worry that the first round of pumping, which if 
approved by the state engineer could be in operation by 2007, could 
starve springs on public lands. They are concerned not just for this 
place but for several other national wildlife refuges in southern Nevada 
that provide havens for endangered species found nowhere else in the world.

In Death Valley and surrounding Inyo County, Calif., officials believe 
the pumping could jeopardize water supplies. There's no doubt the 
aquifer will be drawn down. It's a question of magnitude and where it 
will occur, said Death Valley hydrologist Terry Fisk. In our view, the 
withdrawal of water  could potentially harm our senior water rights.

The Southern Nevada Water Authority, the agency that manages the 
region's water supplies, insists the pumping will have minimal, if any, 
effect. If they're wrong, authority officials say, they'll turn off the 
offending pumps. We've made a commitment if one of our wells causes 
environmental degradation, we'll shut it off, said Pat Mulroy, the 
agency's general manager.

The groundwater development is just one of several fronts her agency is 
pursuing as it hunts for more water for fast-growing Las Vegas, which 
gets most of its municipal supply from the fully claimed Colorado River, 
now in the grip of what some experts say might be the worst drought in 
500 years.

The authority has obtained rights to divert water from the Virgin River 
northeast of Las Vegas, expressed interest in buying irrigation water 
from other states and lobbied the federal government for a bigger share 
of the Colorado. Something has to give. Southern Nevada is the economic 
engine in the state of Nevada, said Mulroy, who is known in 
Southwestern water circles for her combative style.

In the last year, regional water demand dropped thanks to drought 
measures, reversing a more than decade-long trend when water use jumped 
from about 300,000 acre-feet to more than 500,000 acre-feet. (An 
acre-foot is the amount of water that would cover 1 acre to a depth of 1 
foot. One acre-foot is enough to supply two average homes for a year.)

But every month, the Las Vegas metropolitan area continues to grow by 
another 3,000 to 4,000 people. The groundwater system that the authority 
is proposing to meet new demand would take a decade to fully develop and 
could eventually deliver enough water to supply more than 300,000 homes.

full: 
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-water21jun21,1,27573.story?coll=la-home-headlines
--

The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org

Re: Marxist Fianancial Advice

diversify, diversify, diversify. hold for long-term, not short. Hold more bonds (and 
fewer stocks) when old; reverse that when young. Don't expect the stock market to be 
moral in any way. It's a place where you can put (part) of your nest-egg so you won't 
eat dog food when retired.
jd

-Original Message- 
From: Funke Jayson J [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Mon 6/21/2004 7:04 AM 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [PEN-L] Marxist Fianancial Advice

I hope I do not offend anyone with this query, but I cant believe that I am 
the only one who has wrestled with this problem. I would like to learn how other 
people on this list deal with the issue of personal finances. Please feel free to 
reply to me personally if you do not wish to post to the discussion list.

For people on this list fortunate enough to have some personal financial 
considerations to think about (retirement funds etc), how do you handle planning for 
your financial future while reconciling those actions with your personal convictions? 
How do (fortunate?) Marxist living in a capitalist society plan for their own 
financial welfare? Do folks find socially responsible funds (I mean they still 
contribute to capitalism, right?) as an answer? Municipal bonds? Money markets? How 
are any of these better than the other?

I am soon leaving the financial world and will need to make certain financial 
decisions, and I wrestle with this problem continuously. How do others deal with 
personal financial issues that conflict with their values?

I would really appreciate any advice, suggestions, or criticisms.

Jayson Funke

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The information contained in this e-mail may be confidential and is intended 
solely for the use of the named addressee.
Access, copying or re-use of the e-mail or any information contained therein 
by any other person is not authorized.
If you are not the intended recipient please notify us immediately by 
returning the e-mail to the originator.(B)

Re: Chris Doss's sources

2004-06-21 Thread Michael Perelman

But everyone must stop reacting!  Everyone.

On Mon, Jun 21, 2004 at 06:55:44AM -0700, Chris Doss wrote:
 Hey, I'm nice as long as people are nice to me. My vituperance is strictly reactive. 
 :)

 Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I only had a few minutes to glance at 
 this thread. It seems like it is getting close
 to nasty again. Please, do not denounce others on the list.
 --
 Michael Perelman
 Economics Department
 California State University
 Chico, CA 95929

 Tel. 530-898-5321
 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu



 -
 Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
Chico, CA 95929

Tel. 530-898-5321
E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu

Re: Chris Doss's sources

Message received! I am now on mellow mode.Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But everyone must stop reacting! Everyone.On Mon, Jun 21, 2004 at 06:55:44AM -0700, Chris Doss wrote: Hey, I'm nice as long as people are nice to me. My vituperance is strictly reactive. :) Michael Perelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:I only had a few minutes to glance at this thread. It seems like it is getting close to nasty again. Please, do not "denounce" others on the list. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.--Michael PerelmanEconomics DepartmentCalifornia State UniversityChico, CA 95929Tel.
 530-898-5321E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!

Re: Thomas Frank's new book

Devine, James wrote:
 such as whom?


me, perhaps? ;-O

--ravi

Re: Thomas Frank's new book

2004-06-21 Thread Doug Henwood

Eugene Coyle wrote:
What's Wrong With Kansas, the new book by Thomas Frank is interesting.
His acknowledgements include a roster of Pen-L ers.
Including, if I'm remembering correctly, Eugene Coyle.
Doug

Re: Marxist Fianancial Advice

2004-06-21 Thread Carrol Cox

 Funke Jayson J wrote:

  how do
 you handle planning for your financial future while reconciling those
 actions with your personal convictions?

I can't give financial advice, but I have a perspective here. I don't
cooperate with cops or any equivalent. I don't violate organized
boycotts or cross picket lines. I growl when I encounter instances of
sexism, racism, etc. I may have left something out, but I think that is
close to the complete list of political constraints on personal life.

Carrol

Re: Marxist Fianancial Advice

2004-06-21 Thread Doug Henwood

Funke Jayson J wrote:
For people on this list fortunate enough to have some personal
financial considerations to think about (retirement funds etc), how
do you handle planning for your financial future while reconciling
those actions with your personal convictions? How do (fortunate?)
Marxist living in a capitalist society plan for their own financial
welfare? Do folks find socially responsible funds (I mean they still
contribute to capitalism, right?) as an answer? Municipal bonds?
Money markets? How are any of these better than the other?
You can't reconcile principles and investments, esp if you have a
Marxist view of the origins of profit as originating in the
uncompensated labor of others. Most of the big socially responsible
funds have very loose standards, admitting about half of the SP 500
(I haven't checked in a while, but a few years ago the biggies had
Microsoft and Wal-Mart in their portfolios). Money market funds
invest in U.S. Treasury securities - is it ethical to lend money to
Washington? There are things like community land trusts and community
development credit unions, but they generally pay very low returns.
I'd say it comes down to investing prudently but conventionally and
doing the right thing with the rest of your life.
Doug

Re: Marxist Fianancial Advice

2004-06-21 Thread Waistline2






Funke 
  Jayson J wrote:For people on this list fortunate enough to have 
  some personalfinancial considerations to think about (retirement funds 
  etc), howdo you handle planning for your financial future while 
  reconcilingthose actions with your personal convictions? How do 
  (fortunate?)Marxist living in a capitalist society plan for their own 
  financialwelfare? Do folks find socially responsible funds (I mean 
  they stillcontribute to capitalism, right?) as an answer? Municipal 
  bonds?Money markets? How are any of these better than the 
  other?


Reply

I don't believe any of us should take the ideological position 
of the Indian peasant of the past, whose contempt for money was resolved by 
pushing it with a stick. 

There is a side of the communist movement that is very ancient 
and demanded that its adherents cast off their personal wealth and contribute it 
to the collective. When I was a "Party Man" I always pay generous dues because I 
could afford it. I would never pay generous dues and not pay my house note or 
car note. A couple of my children went to college and I helped with money. 


I long ago moved from Christ communism to Marx communism and 
one is not going to do well without money. 

I have a pension from the auto industry with medical benefits 
and my investment money went South during the earthquake of April 2001. My hair 
brain schemes to recover lost dough made matters worse and this past 
Saturday the wife and I spent twenty bucks trying to hit the Texas Lotto - 
a record $145 million. 

Ideological conviction has to have a context. Why not think of 
oneself as an abolitionists on the side of the proletariat? If you do not have 
the expressed intention of sinking to the lowest strata of the proletariat then 
you need to figure out how to pay your house note and living expenses and plan 
for tomorrow. Or refinance the home or something. 

You can't plan tomorrow but you can plan in the direction of 
tomorrow. 

Go long . . . bonds as one writer says, or do as I do and 
chase the lottery. 

Anyone with a good three digit hunch? 

It is a strange world. I have been thinking of putting a few 
bucks in the state sector in China or Putin's Russia. Where are the damn 
communists when you need them.

When the capitalists fail in the market no one gets paid. When 
the communists fail in the market everyone gets squeezed domestically and the 
Reds pay their bills and investors. 

Strange world. 

Stay away from Casino's unless you really can afford to play 
and feel especially lucky. It takes a little more than knowing when to hit a 
hand based on the dealers up card. The slots are rigged but someone is going to 
win. 

Someone in El Paso won the $145 million Texas Lottery. I 
am not currently working but at age 51 . . . retired from Chrysler October 2001, 
and then working in the Casino for about a year, I will probably work another 
ten years somewhere I think. 


Melvin P.

Re: Marxist Fianancial Advice

2004-06-21 Thread s.artesian

Title: Marxist Fianancial Advice


There is no Marxist political economy, since Marx is exploring the necessity for the overthrow of the system 
that generates political economy as an ideological cover.

There is no Marxist financial advice other than, perhaps, seize the banks, cancel the debt.

Would suggest that financial maneuvers are a personal issue and should be handled offlist.

Re: Marxist Fianancial Advice

2004-06-21 Thread Waistline2





In a message dated 6/21/2004 10:46:12 AM Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  I have a pension from the auto industry with medical 
  benefits and my investment money went South during the earthquake of April 
  2001. My hair brain schemes to recover lost dough made matters worse and this 
  past Saturday the wife and I spent twenty bucks trying to hit the Texas 
  Lotto - a record $145 million. 

Comment

Wasn't the earthquake March/April 2000? Time flies when you 
are being hammered in the market. It was April 2001 that I figured out I needed 
to study some economics. 

Melvin P.

india unbound

(didn't see any mention of this book in the pen-l archives).

has anyone read this thing:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/037541164X/104-8496214-3025527?v=glance

 From Library Journal In 1991, four decades of Nehruvian socialism
 fell before the economic reforms of Indian Prime Minister Narasimha
 Rao. In the subsequent decade of India's deregulation, the national
 debt has decreased, the middle class has doubled in size, inflation
 has declined, and the restraints of industrial licensing have been
 abolished. Das, a former CEO of Proctor  Gamble and presently a
 business consultant and journalist, exudes an evangelical zeal for
 India's entry into the world economy. Arguing that India never
 experienced an industrial revolution, he asserts that because of its
 conceptual nature, the information age his country is now embracing
 is a superior fit with its caste system. Das also envisions India's
 economic growth as paralleling that of China, Japan, Korea, and
 Indonesia. Told with verve and excitement, Das's tale is loosely
 organized around a chronology of his life. He eschews mention of
 worker exploitation, environmental pollution, and new forms of
 corruption, but his story is an exciting, hopeful account that can be
 read by all with profit, as long as discretion is exercised.DJohn F.
 Riddick, Central Michigan Univ. Lib., Mt. Pleasant Copyright 2001
 Reed Business Information, Inc.


thoughts?

--ravi

New Politics editors debate Kerry

2004-06-21 Thread Louis Proyect

Stephen Shalom and Michael Hirsh urge holding one's nose and voting for
Kerry. Thomas Harrison will have none of it:
Graveyard of the Left
JOHN KERRY IS VERY MUCH in the New Democratic mold, with a few liberal
touches added on because of his Massachusetts provenance. While far from
the worst, he is nonetheless a fair specimen of the degeneration of the
Democratic Party.
Much nonsense is written about the Democratic Party's progressive
soul, but the truth is that the Democrats have always been, in Kevin
Phillips' words, the world's second most enthusiastic capitalist
party. The only reason they have been somewhat less openly enthusiastic
about this commitment than the Republicans is that since the era of
Franklin Roosevelt the Democratic Party has relied on a mass
constituency of capitalism's chief victims: workers, the poor and racial
minorities. The need to appease them has molded the party into a vehicle
that attracts a fair number of politicians who have some qualms about
the system -- although most of these doubters learn quickly that too
many qualms can make it difficult to raise campaign money or ingratiate
themselves to party leaders and powerful committee chairmen.
Democrats have long specialized in co-opting and taming potentially
radical social movements, and thus preventing a left opposition from
developing. This is not a plot; it just comes naturally to liberals who
are committed Democrats. But the conservatism of the Clinton years
weakened the party's ability to perform this function. Nader's
popularity in 2000, which was not at all adequately reflected in his
vote, revealed the Democrat's vulnerability on their left. The Kucinich
and Dean campaigns were a response to this perceived weakness. A genuine
liberal populist* (as well as a slightly wacky New Ager), Dennis
Kucinich told the Cleveland Plain Dealer: The Democratic Party created
third parties by running in the middle. What I'm trying to do is go back
to the big tent so that everyone who felt alienated could come back
through my candidacy. Third parties must be prevented. And Howard Dean,
whose liberal credentials are questionable at best, nonetheless
succeeded, by attacking Bush's Iraq policies and calling on the
Democrats to stop acting like Republicans, in drawing masses of young
antiwar activists into the Democratic fold -- thus preparing them to
take the next compromising step of falling behind the pro-war, pro-
occupation Kerry campaign once the Dean bubble had burst.
The main reason why Kucinich did so badly in the primaries, and the
reason that Dean collapsed so quickly and utterly, is that the fear of
Bush drove primary voters to avoid or drop and candidate that seemed
unelectable. This year the politicians, fundraisers and corporate big
shots who control the Democratic Party did not really have any use for a
liberal pied piper to lead the disgruntled millions back into their big
tent. Even a John Kerry will do.
By performing this role, Democrats, including liberal Democrats, now and
in the past, have helped make the United States the most politically
monolithic, conservative and crudely pro-capitalist of all the world's
industrial democracies. Nowhere are the putative virtues of the free
enterprise system less questioned and radical change more feared even
by those who would benefit most from it. This society is a medium in
which rightwing extremism can flourish -- and succeed -- as nowhere
else, mainly because it encounters almost no resistance. The Democrats
either half agree with the right or else capitulate on the convenient
assumption that it is too popular to resist. The natural constituents of
a fighting left are muted and hobbled by their thralldom to the
Democrats, or else driven into apathy and abstention from politics. The
ultimate irony, then, is that the Democrats' most important
accomplishment is to make America safe for the Republicans and the right.
There was a time when the Democrats' efforts to shore up the system in
times of crisis, as in the 1930s and 1960s, produced significant
benefits for working people, African Americans and others. Tenuous but
real relationships were forged with the labor and civil rights movements
-- again, relationships meant to manage these movements and keep them
from challenging the system from the outside -- that brought genuine
progress through state intervention. This progress, however, was far
less than might have been achieved had the Democrats not succeeded in
thwarting, say, a labor or social-democratic party. Instead of miserably
inadequate Social Security checks, retired Americans might be receiving
decent government pensions. We might long have had universal health
insurance and free higher education like Canada and Western Europe. In
any case, the sort of fighting liberalism that could be found (along
with rabid Southern racism) within the Democratic Party in its heroic
periods, if one can call them that, is pretty much extinct. As is well
known, few Democrats would

Re: Marxist Fianancial Advice

2004-06-21 Thread Joel Wendland

When I retire in 30 years or so, I plan to be living off a fully
state-funded retirement system, with comprehensive socialized medicine, at a
collective retirement farm somewhere in Idaho or North Carolina, growing
potatoes or cabbage and deleting all of the cranky messages I get on the
list-servs I read.
Joel Wendland
Managing Editor
Political Affairs
http://www.politicalaffairs.net
Also, http://classwarnotes.blogspot.com
_
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Re: Thomas Frank's new book

2004-06-21 Thread Carl Remick

From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Eugene Coyle wrote:
What's Wrong With Kansas, the new book by Thomas Frank is interesting.
His acknowledgements include a roster of Pen-L ers.
Including, if I'm remembering correctly, Eugene Coyle.
Doug
Hmm, modesty abounds.  From WWWK's Acknowledgments:  Gene Coyle, Doug
Henwood, Jim McNeill, Nomi Prins, and Daryll Ray each helped me understand
the particulars of the industrial fields discussed in the book.
Carl
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Re: Marxist Fianancial Advice

2004-06-21 Thread Carrol Cox

Joel Wendland wrote:

 When I retire in 30 years or so, I plan to be living off a fully
 state-funded retirement system, with comprehensive socialized medicine, at a
 collective retirement farm somewhere in Idaho or North Carolina, growing
 potatoes or cabbage and deleting all of the cranky messages I get on the
 list-servs I read.


With some differences, this resembles what I told an insurance salesman
back in the summer of 1955, during my first year in grad school  just
after my daughter had been born. Hah!

To get those things will require a mass (non-electoral) movement equal
to the (CIO + Civil Rights Movement + Anti (Vietnam) War Movement)*3.

Carrol

Re: Thomas Frank's new book

Carl Remick wrote:

 Hmm, modesty abounds.  From WWWK's Acknowledgments:  Gene Coyle, Doug
 Henwood, Jim McNeill, Nomi Prins, and Daryll Ray each helped me understand
 the particulars of the industrial fields discussed in the book.


jimD: bummer! looks we didn't make the list ;-).

--ravi

Re: Thomas Frank's new book

yeah, when will I attain Fame and all of the Big Money associated with it? 


Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine




 -Original Message-
 From: ravi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 10:49 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Thomas Frank's new book
 
 
 Carl Remick wrote:
 
  Hmm, modesty abounds.  From WWWK's Acknowledgments:  
 Gene Coyle, Doug
  Henwood, Jim McNeill, Nomi Prins, and Daryll Ray each 
 helped me understand
  the particulars of the industrial fields discussed in the book.
 
 
 jimD: bummer! looks we didn't make the list ;-).
 
 --ravi

Re: india unbound

2004-06-21 Thread Anthony D'Costa

I have not read the book.  I have read many reviews of the book. It
appears to be a view of India that is only part correct, leaving out many
other important things.  I heard him speak in March in Baltimore, I walked
out along with a colleague to the bar!  He is far too bullish and uses
statistics in the most selective way.  The recent elections indicates to
me how far off he was with his analysis of Indian development.  He is also
a BJP supporter (reform/globalization wise and sans the religious part)
and presumably was asked to represent it but declined.

cheers, anthony

xxx
Anthony P. D'Costa, Professor
Comparative International Development
University of WashingtonCampus Box 358436
1900 Commerce Street
Tacoma, WA 98402, USA

Phone: (253) 692-4462
Fax :  (253) 692-5718
xxx

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, ravi wrote:

 (didn't see any mention of this book in the pen-l archives).

 has anyone read this thing:

 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/037541164X/104-8496214-3025527?v=glance

  From Library Journal In 1991, four decades of Nehruvian socialism
  fell before the economic reforms of Indian Prime Minister Narasimha
  Rao. In the subsequent decade of India's deregulation, the national
  debt has decreased, the middle class has doubled in size, inflation
  has declined, and the restraints of industrial licensing have been
  abolished. Das, a former CEO of Proctor  Gamble and presently a
  business consultant and journalist, exudes an evangelical zeal for
  India's entry into the world economy. Arguing that India never
  experienced an industrial revolution, he asserts that because of its
  conceptual nature, the information age his country is now embracing
  is a superior fit with its caste system. Das also envisions India's
  economic growth as paralleling that of China, Japan, Korea, and
  Indonesia. Told with verve and excitement, Das's tale is loosely
  organized around a chronology of his life. He eschews mention of
  worker exploitation, environmental pollution, and new forms of
  corruption, but his story is an exciting, hopeful account that can be
  read by all with profit, as long as discretion is exercised.DJohn F.
  Riddick, Central Michigan Univ. Lib., Mt. Pleasant Copyright 2001
  Reed Business Information, Inc.


 thoughts?

 --ravi

Re: india unbound

Anthony D'Costa wrote:
 I have not read the book.  I have read many reviews of the book. It
 appears to be a view of India that is only part correct, leaving out many
 other important things.  I heard him speak in March in Baltimore, I walked
 out along with a colleague to the bar!  He is far too bullish and uses
 statistics in the most selective way.  The recent elections indicates to
 me how far off he was with his analysis of Indian development.  He is also
 a BJP supporter (reform/globalization wise and sans the religious part)
 and presumably was asked to represent it but declined.


thank you for the response! if you do get to read the book i would love
to hear further thoughts, especially a rebuttal of his notions and a
defense of some form of socialism (not necessarily nehruvian).

the recent spate of pro-capitalist (for lack of a better word) books and
articles in india seem to be introducing people there (and indians here)
to the regular stories about 'rising tides lifting all boats', etc (when
the recent election is inferred as a protest by the vast rural
population expressing its lack of gain in the boom). as a response, i
often recommend:

http://www.bookfinder.us/review4/1843310279.html
http://www.btinternet.com/~pae_news/texts/Chang1.htm

kicking away the ladder: development strategy in historical perspective
-- ha-joon chang

--ravi

Hegemony in IR

2004-06-21 Thread Michael Hoover

certain matters have precluded my usual regular posting to pen-l and
discussions have, no doubt, been the worse for it

hahahahaha, just a joke (at least regular posting part)...

re. pen-l thread several weeks re. hegemony to which i'd intended to
post comment...

not sure how many, if any, other poli sci folks on list but

hegemony is international relations is posited as holding by one state
of preponderance of power in international system
such that it can single-handedly dominate rules  arrangements by which
political  economic relations are conducted...

above state is called 'hegemon' (generally in reference to world
domination but can be regional)...

some ir scholars (Charles Kindleberger, Robert Keohane, Robert Gilpin,
among others) argue that international system is most effective when
power is most concentrated - when hegemon exists to maintain order,
theory is called 'hegemonic stability theory'...

most studies of hegemony point to 2 examples: 19th century britain 
post-ww2 u.s...

former followed defeat of france in napoleonic wars, both world trade
and naval capabilities in british hands...latter followed destruction of
war, u.s. gdp was more than 50% of world's total, u.s. vessels carried
majority of world's shipping, u.s. had greatest military power  had
nuclear monopoly (albeit, for brief time), u.s. industry led in
technology  productivity, u.s. had highest (unequal, of course) living
standards...

according to theory, post-ww2 commercial cooperation leading to
unprecedented economic growth was facilitated by security system
established by u.s. power as well as international economic arrangements
made at end of war ('bretton woods' system)...

ir scholars point to hegemonic decline resulting as extreme power
disparities stemming from major war diminish over time (states rebuild
over years  decades)  as hegemons overextend themselves with costly
military commitments...

kindleberger was among ir scholars who thought that post-ww2 framework
for international trade  monetary relations would collapse once u.s.
was no longer able to enforce rules of that regime (i.e., diminished
u.s. power in 1970s evident in loss of vietnam war, rise of opec,
malaise of u.s. economy)...

according to keohane, above didn't happen because once cooperation is
attained, incentives remain to continue it in absence of hegemon because
established regimes offer predictability  information to members...

a few ir analysts do have gramscian-like take in referring to complex
of ideas that rulers use to gain consent for legitimacy and to keep
subjects in line (hegemony of ideas such as 'democratic' capitalism,
global predominance of u.s. culture)...

of course, while force may be reduced by such hegemony, force always
remains tools of coercion re. those who do not accept 'norms' or who
aspire to create different arrangements...michael hoover

Nader/Camejo

the radio news says that Ralph Nader has chosen Peter Camejo as his
vice-presidential running mate. Camejo is good, but I don't think they
should start measuring the White House for new carpets yet...


Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine

Re: Nader/Camejo

2004-06-21 Thread Dan Scanlan

the radio news says that Ralph Nader has chosen Peter Camejo as his
vice-presidential running mate. Camejo is good, but I don't think they
should start measuring the White House for new carpets yet...
They couldn't afford it anyway --there's so much crap swept under the
current rug it will take a revolutionary device to pull it up.
Dan Scanlan

Jim wants you to see this.

2004-06-21 Thread Jim Craven

Jim thought you would like this site.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/062204L.shtml

ApplyRefer v2.3

Vote Nader/Camejo 2004!

2004-06-21 Thread Yoshie Furuhashi

Vote Nader/Camejo 2004!
Great news! Ralph Nader did the right thing and chose Peter Miguel
Camejo for his running mate:
Independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader selected Peter Camejo,
a Green Party activist from California, as his vice presidential
nominee on Monday.
The pick comes just days before the Green Party will select its
candidate for the White House at its national convention in
Milwaukee, where Camejo said he will make the case for Nader, the
party's presidential nominee four years ago.
Although not actively seeking the Green nomination, Nader said he
would accept it and the access to 22 state ballot lines the party
selection brings with it. . . .
Camejo ran as the Green Party candidate for governor of California in
the special election won by Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger. Camejo
appeared in the campaign's only nationally televised debate and won 3
percent of the vote. He also ran for governor in 2002, winning 5
percent.
The son of Venezuelan immigrants and fluent in Spanish, Camejo said
at the press conference announcing his selection he would lead the
Nader campaign's outreach to Hispanics, a traditional Democratic
constituency.
The campaign's central issue, Camejo said, would be opposition to the
war in Iraq, and criticized Bush and Kerry for having identical
positions. . . .
His campaign turned in about 40,000 signatures on Monday to get on
the Illinois ballot, more than the required 25,000. Petitions have
also been completed in Texas and Arizona and are awaiting
certification. . . . (Rolando Garcia/Reuters, Independent Nader Taps
Green Party Activist for VP, June 21, 2004)
Nader's choice of Camejo as his vice presidential candidate makes it
much easier for the left-wing of the Green Party -- of which Camejo
is the most prominent member -- to get the party to endorse the Nader
campaign at its national convention. Now, the promise of the Nader
campaign has dramatically increased quantitatively and qualitatively.
The Nader/Camejo ticket will likely receive the Green Party's 22
state ballot lines and, in addition to Nader's own efforts so far and
the Reform Party's 7 ballot lines, can mount an all-out campaign in
almost all states! Camejo will move the Nader campaign's politics
sharply to the left, too, especially on issues such as immigration on
which Nader's own rhetoric at times has been found wanting by
left-wing activists. Now, we're really good to go!
Vote Nader/Camejo 2004!
[The text with full links:
http://montages.blogspot.com/2004/06/vote-nadercamejo-2004.html.]
--
Yoshie
* Critical Montages: http://montages.blogspot.com/
* Bring Them Home Now! http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/
* Calendars of Events in Columbus:
http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/calendar.html,
http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php,  http://www.cpanews.org/
* Student International Forum: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/
* Committee for Justice in Palestine: http://www.osudivest.org/
* Al-Awda-Ohio: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio
* Solidarity: http://www.solidarity-us.org/

A victory for managed care

2004-06-21 Thread michael

High Court Sides With HMOs on Malpractice Suits
Unanimous Ruling in Texas Cases Strikes at Heart of Patients' Rights Debate
By William Branigin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, June 21, 2004; 12:56 PM
The Supreme Court ruled unanimously ...
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
California State University
michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Chico, CA 95929
530-898-5321
fax 530-898-5901

Re: Chris Doss's sources