Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
One of the titles of a chapter in Michael Moore's new book is "Death to Horatio Alger." His premise is that just the dream of someday becoming rich undermines class solidarity. It really is the all-American dream, the "rags-to-riches" story. Troy"Devine, James" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ravi: michael moore when asked about his multi-million dollar new york apartment responded that his blue-collar ex-neighbours (in clint michigan) would be proud and happy for him. perhaps.me: On the Left, it used to be said that "nothing is too good for the working class." This applied to folks who had escaped that class, too. Absent an immediate revolution, who wouldn't want to escape?Carrol: Yes and no. There was a phrase among british workers, "bloody jump-ups."yup. the (partial) escape from the working class also tends to undermine working-class solidarity (and this isn't the only case where individual interest conflicts with class interest). Somewhere in CAPITAL vol. III, Marx writes how capitalism is stabilized if it can recruit the best the brightest from the working class into itsfold.JimPost your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/02/03 8:34 AM One of the titles of a chapter in Michael Moore's new book is Death to Horatio Alger. His premise is that just the dream of someday becoming rich undermines class solidarity. It really is the all-American dream, the rags-to-riches story. Troy Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ravi: michael moore when asked about his multi-million dollar new york apartment responded that his blue-collar ex-neighbours (in clint michigan) would be proud and happy for him. perhaps. me: On the Left, it used to be said that nothing is too good for the working class. This applied to folks who had escaped that class, too. Absent an immediate revolution, who wouldn't want to escape? Carrol: Yes and no. There was a phrase among british workers, bloody jump-ups. yup. the (partial) escape from the working class also tends to undermine working-class solidarity (and this isn't the only case where individual interest conflicts with class interest). Somewhere in CAPITAL vol. III, Marx writes how capitalism is stabilized if it can recruit the best the brightest from the working class into its fold. Jim the working class can kiss my ass, i've got the foreman's job at last... michael hoover
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
--- Michael Hoover [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the working class can kiss my ass, i've got the foreman's job at last... michael hoover And now for a song about Mr. Block. First published in the 6 Mar 1913 edition (fifth edition) of the Industrial Worker Little Red Songbook. *** Please give me your attention, I'll introduce to you A man that is a credit to Our Red White and Blue, His head is made of lumber, and solid as a rock; He is a common worker and his name is Mr. Block. And Block he thinks he may Be President some day. CHORUS: Oh Mr. Block, you were born by mistake, You take the cake, you make me ache. Tie a rock on your block and then jump in the lake, Kindly do that for Liberty's sake. Yes, Mr. Block is lucky; he found a job, by gee! The sharks got seven dollars, for job and fare and fee. They shipped him to a desert and dumped him with his truck, But when he tried to find his job, he sure was out of luck, He shouted, That's too raw, I'll fix them with the law. Block hiked back to the city, but wasn't doing well. He said I'll join the union -- the great A. F. of L. He got a job next morning, got fired in the night, He said, I'll see Sam Gompers and he'll fix that foreman right. Sam Gompers said, You see, You've got our sympathy. Election day he shouted, A Socialist for Mayor! The comrade got elected, he happy was for fair, But after the election he got an awful shock, A great big socialistic Bull did rap him on the block. And Comrade Block did sob, I helped him to his job. The money kings in Cuba blew up the gunboat Maine, But Block got awful angry and blamed it all on Spain. He went right in the battle and there he lost his leg. And now he's peddling shoestrings and is walking on a peg. He shouts, Remember Maine, Hurrah! To hell with Spain! Poor Block he died one evening, I'm very glad to state, He climbed the golden ladder up to the pearly gate. He said, Oh Mister Peter, one word I'd like to tell, I'd like to meet the Astorbilts and John D Rockefell. Old Pete said, Is that so? You'll meet them down below. = * the Council Republic is not the culmination of everything, and even less does it stand for the most perfect form in which humans can live together. However the Council Republic is a prerequisite for the reconstruction of culture, because it makes possible the liquidation of the state,. It must be the task of the revolutionary of today to work for the Council system and the Council Republic. (Der Ziegelbrenner) http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
While conservative and liberal communities formulate their separate identities, [Americans] search for leaders to champion their way of life. They turn to pundits who are skilled in challenging opposing agenda's in the public realm. Conservatively, the Mainstream Personal Identifier (MPI) and liberally, the Marginal Identity Politico (MIP) process issues and agendas that propagate the confronting agenda. Each pundit embarks on a character crusade: they make appeals to the better interests and senses of the public's perception of image. If such appeals do not gain enough attention to their cause, the pundits will begin to hurl epithetical ad hominems at their target for effect, hoping that the media will exploit the moment, transform it into an event. [To make] Progress, to get a point across, pundits use a sophist's tactics: executing logic and shock plays to label their position. Not only attacking their nemesis, these polemicists prey on the audience's fears, attitudes and beliefs. The goal is to force the audience to make a decision (pro or con) about an issue (agenda item). Living for a debate, pundits essentially haggle for power over the image of the cultural center. While there is a serious competition for freedom of will, the spectacle of punditry turns conscientious controversy into sport. - Edward K. Brown II, Mainstream Political Identity, Marginal Identity Politics, and the Fringe (http://www.multifest.com/essays/mpi-mip-web.pdf)
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
Yea , I smoked a pipe for many yeares and enjoyed it -- until I became a victim of ashma and quit smoking. Now I find smoke of any sort a terrible hazard. More so for my wife for whom smoke of any sort triggers heart fibrilations that are potentially fatal. I think the tobacco companies deserve legal defence just as homocial murderers. No more, no less. But on the more important question of Krugman versus Stiglitz. To me there is no contest. Though I appreciate and forward Krugman's odd commentary, I tend to agree with his criticism is just neoclassic orthodoxy in critique of neoliberal ideology. It is just nice to see the mainstream agree will the few of us that critique the economic world from the real left. On the other hand, I think Stiglitz is a different 'kettle of fish'. First, as others have observed, he is not in the same game of personal aggrandizement. Second, along with his fellow nobel award winner (Akerlof) his economics is not orthodox and accepts both institutional frameworks and non-neoclassical frameworks -- e.g. assymetrical information, etc. -- . The beauty of Stiglitz's critique is that it allowed us to deveolop a non-orthodox analysis that we could present, not only to our students, but also to the general public. Without ideological baggage. In Solidarity, Paul Phillips. Louis Proyect wrote: Carl, I smoked a pipe for several decades before quitting -- and I would be afraid to add up how many thousands of dollars (not covered by insurance) I have spent on repairing (partly) the damage it did to my teeth. Right now, I've got a large gap in the front of my mouth (upper) which has cost me so far %3000 (for the implants) and will cost another thousand or two for the crowns on the implants. And it will cost me about $5000 to get the teeth below filled in. Trying to add it up in my head right now, I must have clsoe to $20,000 dental work in my mouth, counting only repair of the damage done by holding a pipe between my teeth. Carrol Mark Jones was a pipe smoker. Louis Proyect, Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
Carl, I smoked a pipe for several decades before quitting -- and I would be afraid to add up how many thousands of dollars (not covered by insurance) I have spent on repairing (partly) the damage it did to my teeth. Right now, I've got a large gap in the front of my mouth (upper) which has cost me so far %3000 (for the implants) and will cost another thousand or two for the crowns on the implants. ... Carrol I am very sorry to learn you have had such problems. From family experience I know what an expensive bother dental repair can be. For myself, I'll take my chances and keep puffing away. I find little reason to smile these days anyway :( Carl _ Send instant messages to anyone on your contact list with MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
Why is it that we generate so much more interest discussing personalities rather than ideas? Why when a person takes a contrary postion, do we -- not just on this list -- find a need to denounce the person in general. I just heard Studs Turkel -- tape delay -- interviewd on KPFA discussing Dan Burton, who usually seems pretty bad. Kucinich told him to interview Burton, and he found some surprisingly good features in his take on life. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
Why is it that we generate so much more interest discussing personalities rather than ideas? If you don't know that, why are you a socialist ? J.
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
Devine, James wrote: ravi: michael moore when asked about his multi-million dollar new york apartment responded that his blue-collar ex-neighbours (in clint michigan) would be proud and happy for him. perhaps. On the Left, it used to be said that nothing is too good for the working class. This applied to folks who had escaped that class, too. Absent an immediate revolution, who wouldn't want to escape? Yes and no. There was a phrase among british workers, bloody jump-ups. Carrol Jim
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
ravi: michael moore when asked about his multi-million dollar new york apartment responded that his blue-collar ex-neighbours (in clint michigan) would be proud and happy for him. perhaps. me: On the Left, it used to be said that nothing is too good for the working class. This applied to folks who had escaped that class, too. Absent an immediate revolution, who wouldn't want to escape? Carrol: Yes and no. There was a phrase among british workers, bloody jump-ups. yup. the (partial) escape from the working class also tends to undermine working- class solidarity (and this isn't the only case where individual interest conflicts with class interest). Somewhere in CAPITAL vol. III, Marx writes how capitalism is stabilized if it can recruit the best the brightest from the working class into its fold. Jim
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
Carl Remick wrote: No, as a pipe smoker I must say you're serving a worthy cause. In fact, I think you should be serving in a pro bono capacity ;-) Carl, I smoked a pipe for several decades before quitting -- and I would be afraid to add up how many thousands of dollars (not covered by insurance) I have spent on repairing (partly) the damage it did to my teeth. Right now, I've got a large gap in the front of my mouth (upper) which has cost me so far %3000 (for the implants) and will cost another thousand or two for the crowns on the implants. And it will cost me about $5000 to get the teeth below filled in. Trying to add it up in my head right now, I must have clsoe to $20,000 dental work in my mouth, counting only repair of the damage done by holding a pipe between my teeth. Carrol Carl
Re: In defence of Krugman and against Alexander Cockburn: choice oftargets
Carl, I smoked a pipe for several decades before quitting -- and I would be afraid to add up how many thousands of dollars (not covered by insurance) I have spent on repairing (partly) the damage it did to my teeth. Right now, I've got a large gap in the front of my mouth (upper) which has cost me so far %3000 (for the implants) and will cost another thousand or two for the crowns on the implants. And it will cost me about $5000 to get the teeth below filled in. Trying to add it up in my head right now, I must have clsoe to $20,000 dental work in my mouth, counting only repair of the damage done by holding a pipe between my teeth. Carrol Mark Jones was a pipe smoker. Louis Proyect, Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
