Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
Hi Pensters, My view from down here and from having known people in the rank file voting public of California is that they voted for Arnie because he promised them simple, honest good governance and a 'strong' government. The government under Davis was seen as weak, which is why so many people got screwed (the thinking goes) during the 'energy crisis (fix). The problem with the voting public is that they're, for the most part, a bunch of ignorant fools who, like the kool-aide drinkers of Jonestown, are looking for an honest guy to lead them to the simple life away from the slimy, weak polytricksters, like Davis. The ground for this kind of debacle is fertilized on a daily basis by mealy-mouthed liberals who won't stand up for what they believe--mostly because the DP is in the hands of a gang of bureaucrats beholden to various sections of the ruling class. These politicians are satisfied with playing the role of safety valve during the toboggan ride to the bottom which Capital and the Repugs are bound and determined to take the rest of us. They don't tell their constituencies that they're being ripped off royally. They tell them that businessmen and the 'free-market' can save the day, if the voters just choose to go with them on their nice toboggan ride with cushions, instead of on the 'mean old' Repugs' sled. A lot of people see through this 'propaganda'--it's all phoney--remember what Bobby D told you? But, because the major pollies in the DP, which is the only voice given credibility as an opposition by the corporate and State owned media (Camejo...who's he? Joe Shit the ragman asks as he quaffs his Bud and reads the sports section at the short bar) don't even begin to educate their constituency (because they're already bought and paid for as safety valves) the voters who vote in quantity choose Arnie because Arnie is better looking and he's like 'cool' baby. Best to all, Mike B) --- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: obviously, Cooper doesn't like Camejo, for whatever reason. I thought, however, that one of MC's points was that the progressive wing and ethnic-minority grassroots of the DP (which are not the object of MC's derision here) sat out because Gray Davis was so bad. And most of them -- and MC, I'd guess -- are wedded to the lesser of two weevils logic which says if you're not voting for Ah-nold or Bustamente, you might as well vote for Gary Coleman or Mary Carey or Larry Flynt. Davis' explanation -- right white nativist anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows -- is true, but only part of the story. It's not only who voted for der Gropenfuehrer but also who didn't vote for Davis, or Bustamente. There were also a lot of people who voted for Mr. Universe for reasons besides those highlighted by Davis. btw, MC's article is from the curent L.A. WEEKLY. Jim -Original Message- From: Doug Henwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sun 10/12/2003 2:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [PEN-L] cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems As Eudora told me, the word Camejo was not found in this piece. Why, if this was a not-unadmirable uprising, as Marc Cooper argues, was there not more support for him (or Huffington)? Mike Davis' explanation - that it was a right white nativist anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows - seems more compelling, given the demographics of the vote. Arnie's vote was highest in the above-$75k households. Doug = * A man's maturity consists in finding once again the seriousness he had as a child at play. Heraclitus, Greek philosopher (500 B.C.) http://profiles.yahoo.com/swillsqueal __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
I wouldn't take issue with the contempt displayed for the California electorate, the Lib-Dems, and Schwarzenegger personally. But. The one important progressive proposal to emerge from the entire recall circus came from... Schwarzenegger! He promised a program to provide hydrogen refueling facilities *every twenty miles* along California's major highways by 2010. How important this idea is was recognized by the NYTIMES editorially with the adjectives unrealistic and utopian. Of course, this may turn out to be campaign verbiage. But I did have an experience that reflects favorably on Schwarzenegger. In May 2001 I served on the jury in a lengthy damage trial against GM for the death of a husband in an SUV rollover. He was gruesomely crushed when the roof collapsed on his head. GM claimed that its design was not defective because reinforcing the supporting columns would do nothing for safety. We found against GM. On the next day I read in the Financial Times an article reporting that before Schwarzenegger agreed to buy a Hummer he had insisted that GM include exactly the reinforcement that had been at issue in our trial! Shane Mage Thunderbolt steers all things. Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Hi Pensters, My view from down here and from having known people in the rank file voting public of California is that they voted for Arnie because he promised them simple, honest good governance and a 'strong' government. The government under Davis was seen as weak, which is why so many people got screwed (the thinking goes) during the 'energy crisis (fix). The problem with the voting public is that they're, for the most part, a bunch of ignorant fools who, like the kool-aide drinkers of Jonestown, are looking for an honest guy to lead them to the simple life away from the slimy, weak polytricksters, like Davis. The ground for this kind of debacle is fertilized on a daily basis by mealy-mouthed liberals who won't stand up for what they believe--mostly because the DP is in the hands of a gang of bureaucrats beholden to various sections of the ruling class. These politicians are satisfied with playing the role of safety valve during the toboggan ride to the bottom which Capital and the Repugs are bound and determined to take the rest of us. They don't tell their constituencies that they're being ripped off royally. They tell them that businessmen and the 'free-market' can save the day, if the voters just choose to go with them on their nice toboggan ride with cushions, instead of on the 'mean old' Repugs' sled. A lot of people see through this 'propaganda'--it's all phoney--remember what Bobby D told you? But, because the major pollies in the DP, which is the only voice given credibility as an opposition by the corporate and State owned media (Camejo...who's he? Joe Shit the ragman asks as he quaffs his Bud and reads the sports section at the short bar) don't even begin to educate their constituency (because they're already bought and paid for as safety valves) the voters who vote in quantity choose Arnie because Arnie is better looking and he's like 'cool' baby. Best to all, Mike B) --- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: obviously, Cooper doesn't like Camejo, for whatever reason. I thought, however, that one of MC's points was that the progressive wing and ethnic-minority grassroots of the DP (which are not the object of MC's derision here) sat out because Gray Davis was so bad. And most of them -- and MC, I'd guess -- are wedded to the lesser of two weevils logic which says if you're not voting for Ah-nold or Bustamente, you might as well vote for Gary Coleman or Mary Carey or Larry Flynt. Davis' explanation -- right white nativist anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows -- is true, but only part of the story. It's not only who voted for der Gropenfuehrer but also who didn't vote for Davis, or Bustamente. There were also a lot of people who voted for Mr. Universe for reasons besides those highlighted by Davis. btw, MC's article is from the curent L.A. WEEKLY. Jim -Original Message- From: Doug Henwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sun 10/12/2003 2:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [PEN-L] cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems As Eudora told me, the word Camejo was not found in this piece. Why, if this was a not-unadmirable uprising, as Marc Cooper argues, was there not more support for him (or Huffington)? Mike Davis' explanation - that it was a right white nativist anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows - seems more compelling, given the demographics of the vote. Arnie's vote was highest in the above-$75k households. Doug = * A man's maturity consists in finding once again the seriousness he had as a child at play. Heraclitus, Greek philosopher (500 B.C.)
Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
Peter Camejo put forward a number of progessive proposals, more important by far than anything put forward by anyone else. I am repeatedly surprised by the fascination many environmentalists have with the wonderful future world of hydrogen. Let's see, we build power plants to generate electricity to extract hydrogren, then ship, by pipe or other means the hydrogen to someplace else to make electricity? And so we end up with less energy than we started with. Why is this good? Gene Coyle Shane Mage wrote: I wouldn't take issue with the contempt displayed for the California electorate, the Lib-Dems, and Schwarzenegger personally. But. The one important progressive proposal to emerge from the entire recall circus came from... Schwarzenegger! He promised a program to provide hydrogen refueling facilities *every twenty miles* along California's major highways by 2010. How important this idea is was recognized by the NYTIMES editorially with the adjectives unrealistic and utopian. Of course, this may turn out to be campaign verbiage. But I did have an experience that reflects favorably on Schwarzenegger. In May 2001 I served on the jury in a lengthy damage trial against GM for the death of a husband in an SUV rollover. He was gruesomely crushed when the roof collapsed on his head. GM claimed that its design was not defective because reinforcing the supporting columns would do nothing for safety. We found against GM. On the next day I read in the Financial Times an article reporting that before Schwarzenegger agreed to buy a Hummer he had insisted that GM include exactly the reinforcement that had been at issue in our trial! Shane Mage Thunderbolt steers all things. Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Hi Pensters, My view from down here and from having known people in the rank file voting public of California is that they voted for Arnie because he promised them simple, honest good governance and a 'strong' government. The government under Davis was seen as weak, which is why so many people got screwed (the thinking goes) during the 'energy crisis (fix). The problem with the voting public is that they're, for the most part, a bunch of ignorant fools who, like the kool-aide drinkers of Jonestown, are looking for an honest guy to lead them to the simple life away from the slimy, weak polytricksters, like Davis. The ground for this kind of debacle is fertilized on a daily basis by mealy-mouthed liberals who won't stand up for what they believe--mostly because the DP is in the hands of a gang of bureaucrats beholden to various sections of the ruling class. These politicians are satisfied with playing the role of safety valve during the toboggan ride to the bottom which Capital and the Repugs are bound and determined to take the rest of us. They don't tell their constituencies that they're being ripped off royally. They tell them that businessmen and the 'free-market' can save the day, if the voters just choose to go with them on their nice toboggan ride with cushions, instead of on the 'mean old' Repugs' sled. A lot of people see through this 'propaganda'--it's all phoney--remember what Bobby D told you? But, because the major pollies in the DP, which is the only voice given credibility as an opposition by the corporate and State owned media (Camejo...who's he? Joe Shit the ragman asks as he quaffs his Bud and reads the sports section at the short bar) don't even begin to educate their constituency (because they're already bought and paid for as safety valves) the voters who vote in quantity choose Arnie because Arnie is better looking and he's like 'cool' baby. Best to all, Mike B) --- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: obviously, Cooper doesn't like Camejo, for whatever reason. I thought, however, that one of MC's points was that the progressive wing and ethnic-minority grassroots of the DP (which are not the object of MC's derision here) sat out because Gray Davis was so bad. And most of them -- and MC, I'd guess -- are wedded to the lesser of two weevils logic which says if you're not voting for Ah-nold or Bustamente, you might as well vote for Gary Coleman or Mary Carey or Larry Flynt. Davis' explanation -- right white nativist anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows -- is true, but only part of the story. It's not only who voted for der Gropenfuehrer but also who didn't vote for Davis, or Bustamente. There were also a lot of people who voted for Mr. Universe for reasons besides those highlighted by Davis. btw, MC's article is from the curent L.A. WEEKLY. Jim -Original Message- From: Doug Henwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sun 10/12/2003 2:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [PEN-L] cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems As Eudora told me, the word Camejo was not found in this piece. Why, if this was a not-unadmirable uprising, as Marc Cooper argues, was there not
Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
The Repug. energy plan has a new nuke to be built in Idaho, I believe, to help to make hydrogen -- so the Bushits are true environmentalists. On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 01:23:18PM -0700, Eugene Coyle wrote: Peter Camejo put forward a number of progessive proposals, more important by far than anything put forward by anyone else. I am repeatedly surprised by the fascination many environmentalists have with the wonderful future world of hydrogen. Let's see, we build power plants to generate electricity to extract hydrogren, then ship, by pipe or other means the hydrogen to someplace else to make electricity? And so we end up with less energy than we started with. Why is this good? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
of course, putting it in Idaho would fit with the reactionary nature of much of the electorate there. A lot of white LAPD cops retire there so they can find similar people. It's called blue heaven. Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine The Repug. energy plan has a new nuke to be built in Idaho, I believe, to help to make hydrogen -- so the Bushits are true environmentalists. Michael Perelman
Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
Eugene Coyle wrote: I am repeatedly surprised by the fascination many environmentalists have with the wonderful future world of hydrogen. Let's see, we build power plants to generate electricity to extract hydrogren, then ship, by pipe or other means the hydrogen to someplace else to make electricity? And so we end up with less energy than we started with. Why is this good? Because the *solar* energy we started with is mostly unusable until it is stored as hydrogen. Wind farms in North Dakota. Solar farms in Arizona-New Mexico. Enough for all our transportation uses and much more. Plus huge numbers of jobs from construction of the farms, reconfiguration of the vehicle fleet, revitalization of depressed areas, etc., etc. Shane Mage Thunderbolt steers all things. Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64
Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
Hydrogen is useful because it is not a carbon based fuel. Global warming and other problems associated with air/water/Earth pollution can be dealt with in real substatial ways, if humans get wise and organise ways to use fuels which don't involve burning carbon based fuels for energy. I doubt that this can be done under capitalism before it is too late i.e. we've drunk far too much of the carbon based kool-aide our fearless leaders are selling us now. Generating hydrogen from nuclear fission plants is a stupid idea because of the old problems associated with radioactive waste. One might expect this from capitalist politicians. As Shane has indicated, there are other, safer ways to obtain hydrogen. It is not useful for us to continue to poison the Earth. But production for use and need is not what 'the economy' is all about under the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Capitalists who own shares in the carbon based fuel industry will always try to convince you that converting to non carbon based fuels is utopian. It's the same argument they use against socialism i.e. TINA. Regards, Mike B) --- Eugene Coyle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Peter Camejo put forward a number of progessive proposals, more important by far than anything put forward by anyone else. I am repeatedly surprised by the fascination many environmentalists have with the wonderful future world of hydrogen. Let's see, we build power plants to generate electricity to extract hydrogren, then ship, by pipe or other means the hydrogen to someplace else to make electricity? And so we end up with less energy than we started with. Why is this good? Gene Coyle Shane Mage wrote: I wouldn't take issue with the contempt displayed for the California electorate, the Lib-Dems, and Schwarzenegger personally. But. The one important progressive proposal to emerge from the entire recall circus came from... Schwarzenegger! He promised a program to provide hydrogen refueling facilities *every twenty miles* along California's major highways by 2010. How important this idea is was recognized by the NYTIMES editorially with the adjectives unrealistic and utopian. Of course, this may turn out to be campaign verbiage. But I did have an experience that reflects favorably on Schwarzenegger. In May 2001 I served on the jury in a lengthy damage trial against GM for the death of a husband in an SUV rollover. He was gruesomely crushed when the roof collapsed on his head. GM claimed that its design was not defective because reinforcing the supporting columns would do nothing for safety. We found against GM. On the next day I read in the Financial Times an article reporting that before Schwarzenegger agreed to buy a Hummer he had insisted that GM include exactly the reinforcement that had been at issue in our trial! Shane Mage Thunderbolt steers all things. Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Hi Pensters, My view from down here and from having known people in the rank file voting public of California is that they voted for Arnie because he promised them simple, honest good governance and a 'strong' government. The government under Davis was seen as weak, which is why so many people got screwed (the thinking goes) during the 'energy crisis (fix). The problem with the voting public is that they're, for the most part, a bunch of ignorant fools who, like the kool-aide drinkers of Jonestown, are looking for an honest guy to lead them to the simple life away from the slimy, weak polytricksters, like Davis. The ground for this kind of debacle is fertilized on a daily basis by mealy-mouthed liberals who won't stand up for what they believe--mostly because the DP is in the hands of a gang of bureaucrats beholden to various sections of the ruling class. These politicians are satisfied with playing the role of safety valve during the toboggan ride to the bottom which Capital and the Repugs are bound and determined to take the rest of us. They don't tell their constituencies that they're being ripped off royally. They tell them that businessmen and the 'free-market' can save the day, if the voters just choose to go with them on their nice toboggan ride with cushions, instead of on the 'mean old' Repugs' sled. A lot of people see through this 'propaganda'--it's all phoney--remember what Bobby D told you? But, because the major pollies in the DP, which is the only voice given credibility as an opposition by the corporate and State owned media (Camejo...who's he? Joe Shit the ragman asks as he quaffs his Bud and reads the sports section at the short bar) don't even begin to educate their constituency (because they're already bought and paid for as safety valves) the voters who vote in quantity choose Arnie because Arnie is better looking and he's like 'cool'
Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
As Eudora told me, the word Camejo was not found in this piece. Why, if this was a not-unadmirable uprising, as Marc Cooper argues, was there not more support for him (or Huffington)? Mike Davis' explanation - that it was a right white nativist anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows - seems more compelling, given the demographics of the vote. Arnie's vote was highest in the above-$75k households. Doug
Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
obviously, Cooper doesn't like Camejo, for whatever reason. I thought, however, that one of MC's points was that the progressive wing and ethnic-minority grassroots of the DP (which are not the object of MC's derision here) sat out because Gray Davis was so bad. And most of them -- and MC, I'd guess -- are wedded to the lesser of two weevils logic which says if you're not voting for Ah-nold or Bustamente, you might as well vote for Gary Coleman or Mary Carey or Larry Flynt. Davis' explanation -- right white nativist anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows -- is true, but only part of the story. It's not only who voted for der Gropenfuehrer but also who didn't vote for Davis, or Bustamente. There were also a lot of people who voted for Mr. Universe for reasons besides those highlighted by Davis. btw, MC's article is from the curent L.A. WEEKLY. Jim -Original Message- From: Doug Henwood [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sun 10/12/2003 2:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject: Re: [PEN-L] cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems As Eudora told me, the word Camejo was not found in this piece. Why, if this was a not-unadmirable uprising, as Marc Cooper argues, was there not more support for him (or Huffington)? Mike Davis' explanation - that it was a right white nativist anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows - seems more compelling, given the demographics of the vote. Arnie's vote was highest in the above-$75k households. Doug
Re: cooper on the Gray demise of the Lib-Dems
But the Chicano vote was pretty evenly divided. Arnold drew on the nativist impulses, but it was more complex. On Sun, Oct 12, 2003 at 05:48:53PM -0400, Doug Henwood wrote: As Eudora told me, the word Camejo was not found in this piece. Why, if this was a not-unadmirable uprising, as Marc Cooper argues, was there not more support for him (or Huffington)? Mike Davis' explanation - that it was a right white nativist anti-immigrant uprising fueled by talk shows - seems more compelling, given the demographics of the vote. Arnie's vote was highest in the above-$75k households. Doug -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
